Malaysian royalty threaten BehindMLM with legal action
“Oh shit, we done pissed off them royals now…”
In stark contrast to the lack of action Malaysian regulators and police have taken to combat the $1.17 billion dollar Ponzi scheme uFun Club, Malaysian royalty have reacted angrily to being associated with the scheme.
For our part in uncovering the scandal and reporting on what Malaysian media are seemingly unable to, BehindMLM today was threatened by his highness Tengku Sulaiman Shah ibni Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shad, with a $1328 fine and maximum three-year prison sentence.
The cease and desist came by way of email earlier this morning, through Tengku’s lawyers over at L Y Lu & Co.
The article in question is BehindMLM’s reporting of Tengku Sulaiman Shah being the Chairman of uMatrin.
Tengku is the son of Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah and a member of the Malaysian royal family.
uMatrin is owned by Warren Eu, a co-founder of uFun Club:
uMatrin is pretty much “uFun Club lite”, with investors marketing the scheme as follows:
You’ve all heard UFUN? Yes UFUN has produced many millionaires who have income above 1 million per month with utoken program !!
The good news .. One UFUN founder, Dato Dr Warren who has created utoken system has created a new program called UMATRIN of course with the experience you have in UFUN, in UMATRIN to be more steady again !!
uMatrin is backed by the construction and property management companies of Dato Sri Jojo, who is a childhood friend and close confidant and business partner of the Sultan of Selangor.
The extent to which uMatrin has been developed is unclear, what with Warren Eu under investigation in multiple countries because of his status within uFun Club.
What a member of the Malaysian royal family was doing as a Chairman of a company run by a Ponzi scammer I have no idea.
But rather than address it and offer up an explanation, the Malaysian royal family is instead threatening anyone who dared write about it with criminal prosecution.
As per the cease and desist received by L Y Lu & Co on June 9th;
Our Client instructs that the said publication alleges, that our Client and his royal family is involved in illegal (sic) syndicate known as U Fun Stor, U Fun Club, u-Token and any other name, whether it is established in Malaysia, Thailand or any other jurisdiction.
The said publication is accessible to the public and has amount (sic) to a criminal offence in Malaysia.
Such sedition wordings/statements has directly/indirectly lowered or adversely affect (sic) or bring into derogation, the status and position of our client and/or other members of the royal family.
Kindly be informed that any person that has published sedition statement shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to a fine not exceeding five thousand ringgit or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three year (sic) or to both upon conviction.
Take notice that we are instructed by our Client which we hereby do, to demand that the said publication to be (sic) removed completely by any means within seven (7) days from the date hereof, failing which we have our Client’s instructions to take the necessary legal actions against you.
The letter, dated the 4th of June, also reveals Tengku has filed a police report against BehindMLM on the 21st of May.
The investigation is still ongoing and therefore the police report cannot be reproduced or copied at this stage and hence, we would not attach a copy of it hereof (sic).
Now while I’m not too fussed about winding up in a Malaysian jail, I have to say Tengku’s cease and desist provides remarkable insight into Malaysia’s regulatory environment.
I’m not a Malaysian citizen, nor do I live there, yet the Malaysian royal family are threatening me with fines and jail time for simply reporting what is fact. That Tengku Sulaiman Shah is the chairman of uMatrin, which in turn is founded by a co-founder of uFun Club.
If you read over the article in question, at no point do I implicate Tengku or his father as having any direct involvement in uFun Club.
So what are the Malaysian royal family so afraid of?
sedition: (to) conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.
No idea, but I do know that if this is how they see fit to deal with a publication they have no direct control over, then no wonder we’ve seen Malaysian media only regurgitate reporting from publications based outside of Malaysia.
What a sorry state of affairs indeed when Malaysian media find themselves unable to investigate and report on a $1.17 billion dollar Ponzi scheme, lest they be thrown in jail.
And the police?
Should Malaysian police officers dare investigate uFun Club themselves and uncover the extent to which the scheme is connected to Malaysia’s elite, will they be thrown in jail too?
As it stands Malaysian police have refused to investigate uFun Club. Instead they claim they must wait for Thai police to file a criminal report before they’ll do anything.
uFun Club executives, including Warren Eu, thus remain at large and free to operate within Malaysia.
Noticeably absent in L Y Lu’s cease and desist is any explanation or refuting that Tengku is Chairman of uMatrin. It would appear that this is not the problem in and of itself, but rather that the Malaysian royal family has objected to it simply being reported on.
With Warren Eu founder of both uFun Club and uMatrin, that funds are being laundered between the two companies is a given. Again, to what extent Tengku is involved is unclear – primarily because Malaysian police and media have thus far failed to further investigate the matter.
Or if they have, seemingly failed to report on it amidst a backdrop of monarchical corruption and the looming threat of incarceration.
Our coverage of one of the most well-connected MLM Ponzi scheme’s we’ve ever seen continues…
Paranoia… They assume any one who spoke ill of them must be their political enemies.
yeah, that was really strange. you said tengku is chairman of umatrin, and they respond by saying tenkgu has nothing to do with ufun/utoken.
so, we must conclude that tengku IS the chairman of umatrin founded by warren eu, since he has deliberately failed to address it and tried some obfuscating roundabout reply.
From the first look at it, it looked relatively reasonable, e.g. 7 days notice, not very exaggerated, provided some info (about police investigation).
I ignored of course those legal threats there, I looked at those other parts.
The letter itself was relatively polite. The lawyer has probably tried to his instructions a little here.
Personally, I’d tell them to stuff, it, politely, of course. You’re not Malaysian (that I know of), Oz, or have any Malaysian ties. I’d say this may have been among the most… interesting legal threat you’ve gotten… ever.
There’s a Chinese saying: if you don’t want people to know, don’t do it in the first place.
Besides, nobody had accused him of being involved in UFUN other than “once removed”, right?
Heck, even PM’s kid knew not to be that stupid.
Maybe he’ll charge me with sedition too. 😀
‘Sedition Statement’!!
i would understand ‘defamation’, but ‘sedition’ charges for reportage of information freely available on the net, is krazy kook territory. have we traveled back into the 16th century or something?
The headline says “Malaysian royalty involved in Ufun Club Ponzi scheme?”.
behindmlm.com/companies/ufun-club/malaysian-royalty-involved-in-ufun-club-ponzi-scheme/
I’m not very familiar with the facts there, e.g. the links between Ufun and Umatrin (other than vaguely). The link between them has been identified like this:
Tengku Sulaiman Shah’s link to Umatrin is that he is (or has been presented as) the Chairman of Umatrin.
The article has too many elements to be checked for factual content.
Warren Eu seems to be the only direct link between Umatrin and Ufun Club?
Marketing suggests there’s a cross-over at the affiliate level, with uFun Club affiliates signing up for uMatrin.
The scheme as I understand was gutted once the Thai investigation began. Had uMatrin of been left to its own devices, it was being marketed as uToken 2.0.
no, umatrin is still on full blast !
the umatrin headquarters are of course safely in malaysia, where we know ‘sedition charges’ are flung at anyone who dares question royals about their ponzi scheme affiliations:
and just recently on june 3, 2015:
yesterday justicealwayslate on FB, had reported that warren eu is being added to the list of ufun suspects [or so i understood from the translation].
i wonder why no english news is covering all the material on ufun, that justicelawayslate posted yesterday!
Oh I stand corrected then. So uMatrix (uToken 2.0) is full-steam ahead.
And the Sultan’s son is still Chairman… oh dear.
God forbid these scams rip Malaysians off for millions of dollars, just don’t mention who’s involved or it’s off to jail.
how many links do you need? warren eu is the ‘Founder’ of both ufun and umatrin. that’s a pretty strong link ?
why has the legal threat from tengku’s lawyers not mentioned anything about umatrin? why the half assed reply about tengku having nothing to do with ‘ufun’?
oz, do consult with a lawyer, these guys are powerful shit! it is a bit scary.
HaHa, Hilarious. Maybe that dumb-ass sultan (or whoever hell he thinks he is) should spend his tugricks, not on lawyers but go back to the school and learn couple basic things that money do not grow on trees.
And when you get involved in international crime syndicate it will back fire one day.
Umatrin seemed to use digital currency BizCoin in late 2014, and maybe some Utoken (slide #16 in a slideshare presentation shows 1 bitcoin and 1 Utoken, but the text is “Digital Currency”).
From that presentation:
BizCoin seems to have flopped shortly after introduction in August 2014, so it may have been bought by Umatrin between August and November 2014.
Page 30 in the presentation shows a compensation plan with 8 levels of distributor ranks (Distributor, Silver, Platinum, Ruby, Diamond, Blue Diamond, VIP, VVIP).
* 8 different member packages (500, 1000, 3000, 5000, 10000, 20000, 40000, 80000). I will guess this is about a digital currency.
* 8 different amounts “USD package” ($600, $1,200, $3,600, $6,000, $12,000, $24,000, $48,000, $96,000).
* 8 different “Free bizpoints” (250, 500, 1500, 2500, 5000, 10000, 20000, 40000)
– – – – – –
Note that the presentation was from November 2014 (7 or 8 months old), Umatrin Worldwide Sdn Bhd (a Umatrin Holdings does also exist, but both seem to be owned by Warren Eu).
Some more updated information will be needed.
The presentation had very little text and explanations, so it’s probably meant for face-to-face presentations or to be used in video presentations.
* The rest of the compensation plan is about commissions and bonuses (Sponsor Bonus, Team Bonus, Leadership Bonus, Management Bonus)
From the transcript:
I did not understand, I thought UFUN Club founder is Dato Danial and how come you guys saying here Dato Eu?
Got confused what is the truth.
Ask UFUN and Daniel Tay. Tay in the audio message earlier claimed he’s NOT the founder. UFUN’s own promo pictures says Warren was founder.
Thai news (in 2015) generally named Daniel Tay as “Executive Chairman”, not founder or owner.
The facebook posts by members though often referred to Daniel Tay as “boss” (老闆）which could be interpreted as owner or founder
The 2014 presentations for UFUN generally credits Daniel Tay as “marketing director”.
So perhaps you’ve not been reading news, but advertising copies written by people who don’t check the facts.
Could we take a look on the full lawyer letter? I would like to see the full contents on how the letter defend the Tengku.
That’s just it, they didn’t defend him.
There was nothing to respond to, with the letter pretty much stating “take it down or else”.
The only parts of the letter I didn’t reproduce are the quotes from the BMLM article. You’ve got the rest of it above.
uh, lyn summers, the australian top recruiter of ufun, who was in malaysia a few days ago, probably chatting up the ufun management, is now in bangkok thailand. gutsy lady!
Tengku Sulaiman Shah, is featured on the website of umatrin. this i think clearly shows that he is involved with umatrin. no wonder his lawyers have not disputed this fact in their C&D to behindmlm.
www2.umatrin.com/web/portfolio/global-business-magazine-interview/
A part of the article in question is based on misinterpretation of information, e.g. Nazifuddin is described as a majority shareholder in Sagajuta (Sabah) Sdn Bhd.
Based on research of both companies, he seemed to own 4.4% of the shares directly or indirectly (from memory), reduced from 9.2% in 2013 (still from memory).
According to that article, he’s also “running the show” there, and is “neck deep in Ponzi fraud”.
In short, you seem to have crossed a line in that article, from being fact based to being speculative. The article does seem to have some issues.
There’s a reason uFun Club and Nazifuddin sat down together and posed for photos.
He’s not some naive moron, that shit doesn’t fly. I maintain that both Nazifuddin and Tengku are involved in the uMatrin/uFun Club mess far more than they’re letting on.
Running it? No. But the political and royal connections, and resulting lack of investigative media and police action.
Whether or not clawbacks even exist within the Malaysian legal system (I doubt it), should the matter be investigated properly I’d imagine the funds clawed back would be substantial.
We’re never going to get to that point though.
Malaysia’s evidently not as transparent on Ponzi issues as we’d like, so all I can do is put together what’s publicly known and draw what I believe to be the most obvious conclusions.
It’s not an easy minefield to navigate, but as accurate a picture as anyone can paint given what’s publicly known at this time.
If you follow the construction trails, you just wind up in a closed loop within Sabah, with everyone being friends with everybody – again not a coincidence.
Other than acknowledge their status within Malaysian society, I’ve otherwise neutral towards Nazifuddin or Tengku. But it’s pretty obvious their involvement, whatever the level, is tied to the political and regulator protection uFun/uMatrin and its executives have enjoyed in Malaysia.
We’re almost going on two months since Malaysian authorities were first made aware of the scam, and not one arrest to date. Who’s pulling those strings?
Actually, I can think of a pretty clear way to steer clear without burning too many bridges, sort of backhanded compliment. 😉
The explanation is believable, and if Warren Eu turned out to be involved in UFUN (of which there’s little doubt), he can always claimed “I was deceived just like everybody else!”
Which is basically what PM’s kid is doing now.
Well that’s not going to happen. The Sultan’s son isn’t issuing public statements, preferring instead to let his lawyers do the talking.
Malaysian media aren’t covering it, lest they be thrown in jail. And the police have been asleep at the wheel until Thailand give them permission to investigate, lest they also be thrown in jail for showing any initiative.
They may be, but currently you don’t have enough information to properly support that theory.
I have tried to find supporting information, but Umatrin doesn’t seem to have much of a “footprint” online (I’m primarily talking about online marketing in English here).
Since I’m not very familiar with uMatrin or connections to royal family, I decided to look into that other part of the article (parts I am familiar with). It had some issues.
In that statement, the “political and royal connections” seems to be the cause of “lack of investigative media” and “lack of police actions”?
It may of course be true. Or it may not be true. But I don’t think we should refer to it as some type of fact. You have probably found information pointing in the other direction too?
I think there’s more than enough information to ask the question though. I took it a step further and drew logical conclusions.
The missing parts are only going to be made available at a local level which, pending threats of criminal charges, nobody in Malaysia appears willing to investigate.
Nope. I’m at a complete loss as to why Malaysian media have done no reporting of their own on uFun Club (every article is a reprint of information out of Thailand or here), or why Malaysian police are waiting for Thai permission to do anything.
In light of the C&D send to me, I can only surmise Malaysian media and police aren’t above Malaysian sedition law. Which apparently sees anyone investigate a royal/politically connected fraudulent scheme thrown in jail.
And you think that’s a co-incidence?
Selangor is where this is all going down, and that state is controlled by the Sultan, who’s son is the Chairman of uMatrin, who are “working closely” with a local construction industry heavyweight, who is a personal friend of the Sultan.
We’ve seen money laundering activities tied to uFun Club exposed across multiple international jurisdictions, except Malaysia.
Why do you think that is?
I checked briefly how Malaysian newspapers had covered the story on May 21st.
Speaking of Malaysiakini, from their “about us” page:
That’s the situation Malaysian media are in when it comes to uFun, uMatrin, Tengku and Nazifuddin. Malaysian sedition law, according to the C&D I was sent, also covers “the state”, which takes care of Nazifuddin.
And against that backdrop you’ve got me putting together what I can based on what limited information is available.
It’s not easy but I stand by what I’ve written. And if anyone in Malaysia dared to investigate further I’d be willing to bet the house a ton of dirty laundry would be uncovered.
Don’t forget, “Now26 as a source” used BehindMLM as the source for their own story. I can’t take full credit for all the research (readers who contributed bits and pieces know who you are), but it wasn’t until I put pen to paper that anyone in Malaysia reported on it.
And even then that’s been limited in scope to Nazifuddin. Nobody as of yet has mentioned the Sultan’s son and uMatrin – that’s apparently where the line has been drawn.
there is enough evidence in the the ufun/umatrin story to ask tough questions about links to powerful people and royalty.
that malaysian media is ‘regulated’ and ‘controlled’ is a known fact. that the malaysian police is doing nothing in the ufun case is an obvious fact.
that nafizuddin cosied up with warren eu and party is a fact. that the son of the sultan of selangor is featured on the website of umatrin is a fact.
that warren eu has co founded ufun and now umatrin, has been bandied around the net for ages, it’s most highly probable fact.
there is enough material here to draw reasonable inferences, and ask some tough questions. if the media wont ask questions, who will?
if everyone involved is innocent, let an investigation prove that. the interpol can definitely dig up some information, if malaysia allows them to.
what exactly umatrin does and what it’s compensation plan is, remains a mystery.
they also have stem cells products and honey products, but no pricing is provided on the website.
why would an honest product based company share no information about its income opportunity? what’s to hide? it’s obvious umatrin is a shady recruitment based company.
why would the son of the sultan of selangor, endorse such a company?
Back in October/November 2014 Umatrin had quite a presence on facebook.
The Ufun management stated Warren Eu was one of the original founders ut left Ufun to start up an opposition company with its own currency, that company being Umatrin…
Back then they did have a sort of company presentation and compensation plan but I didn’t save the info as I wasn’t interested.
Compared to Ufun they looked like a very small fish trying to copy Ufun model.
according to an FB post this was the compensation plan of umatrin as on dec 24,2015.
facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=416179575197319&set=pcb.416179765197300&type=1&theater
as recently as march 24,2015 someone has posted on the umatrin FB page:
so, it appears the bizpoint model which is similar to utoken is still in place.
Oz, In view of the heat that is happening, should it be appropriate to open discussion file on Umartin?
Already on it. Will have a uMatrin review out soon.
I don’t think you should mix in the Sultan of Sabah here. Sabah and Sarawak are parts of East Malaysia (Borneo), while Selangor and the other states are parts of West Malaysia (peninsula). The straight line distance between Selangor and Sabah seems to be 1,784 kilometer (1,108.6 miles).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia#Subdivisions
distancebetween2.com/selangor/sabah
BizCoin was similar to uToken. Bizpoint is probably a type of “shopping points”. BizCoin was a type of crypto-currency introduced in August 2014, but it flopped shortly after it was introduced (post #13).
The name “BizCoin” has also been used by other unrelated companies. Search results produced too many unrelated results and too few meaningful ones.
Hell, we’re all going to be experts in Malaysian geography before this is done.
that should read ‘Selangor’ not ‘Sabah’. selangor surrounds the capital of malaysia, kuala lumpur, and is the most developed state.
the klang valley area is part of selangor/kuala lumpur. sagajuta’s raymond chan and nafizuddin have their gateway klang project here. raymond chan’s sagajuta is basically a sabah based construction company.
the sultan of selangor and tan sri jojo who are associated with umatrin, are currently constructing the four seasons complex in kuala lumpur. kuala lumpur was previously a part of selangor, but is now a federal territory, but the sultan of selangor must still have a historical hold here.
I found the same types of results. I was primarily looking for marketing efforts in English. “Umatrin” search strings will typically return a few slideshare.net presentations from late 2014.
Is that comp plan still in place? There’s no mention of a business model on the uMatrin website.
From my prelim research it’s your basic Ponzi points business model, with a set percentage of ROI required to be spent on the products.
uFun Club was trying to get this off the ground with uStore or whatever it was called, but that was a bit of a joke.
i found this info about umatrins ‘Bizpoint’ :
sounds like a utoken twin to me! and the ‘products’ they have, seem like a cousin of ‘ufun store’ or ‘UBTmall’ to me!
so tengku gets pissed if he’s associated with ufun, but has no qualms about his photo being plastered on the umatrin website?
It sounds like the tokens in OneCoin. But they may of course have dropped the BizCoin between November and December 2014.
When I checked uMatrin in the end of May, the company didn’t seem to have much activity. So I focused on the acquisition of Golden Opportunities Corp., an empty shell company with no activity.
Y’all seen that big disclaimer they have on the uMatrin website?
I’m tempted to hold off on a review till a 2015 dated compensation plan can be sourced.
This is dated May 4th “How to sell BizPoints”: youtube.com/watch?v=NGJJFM6A0EQ
Unless I see something by the end of the week that suggests uMatrin have gotten rid of the Ponzi points model, that’s what I’m going to run with.
Here we go, this is the website in the uMatrin promo vids – bzpoints.com/login.php
Registered privately on the 15th of Jan 2015. It looks to be set up the exact same way uFun is (have a blah website and then get everyone trading/buying Ponzi points at as separate website).
Alexia have Thailand at 73.9% of BzPoints traffic and Vietnam at 23.1%. Malaysia doesn’t register.
uMatrin Ponzi points payment processor site: bzsyss.com/login.php
Registered same date as BzPoints website, also privately.
Surprise surprise, Alexa has the BzSyss website at 80.6% Thailand and 11.2% Vietnam.
sneaky shysters!
so, how soon will we have tengku claiming umatrin has been using his name and mugshots without his knowledge!
maybe he even filed a ‘backdated’ police complaint about umatrin! 🙂
apart from bizpay, from bzsyss.com, which was created only in oct 2014, umatrin has two more payment processors.
one is unionpay card, which is a china based payment processor and completely legit
the signing up with unionpay card happened in march, 2015, along with the listing on the OTC exchange. i suppose unionpay was impressed by umatrin holding being a ‘listed’ company in the US and all.
facebook.com/umatrin/posts/869543896439384
If they’re using UnionPay, then I’d guess bzsyss.com is hooked up to UnionPay. Bzsyss in and of itself isn’t a processor, it’s just a gateway site.
And that means basically you’ve got Warren Eu laundering uMatrin funds through China.
I was going to put this review off till tomorrow, but I’ve got some 70-80 browser tabs of research open now. If I go to sleep I’m not going to remember everything so best I get this over with before I retire for the night.
Give me a few hours and I’ll have a uMatrin review up.
I checked the Now 26 interview with the Malaysian “The Star” journalist on April 27. The Malaysian police only received a request for information and assistance.
From the request letter. I don’t remember the source, but it was most likely picked up from the article itself referring to JusticeAlwaysLate as a source:
In the April 24 Now26 news video, the former journalist from The Star (Soon Chen Kang) identified it as the Malaysian police saw it = “we haven’t received any information we can act on yet, we have only received some basic information”.
From the Now26 interview:
“Lack of investigation” seems to be partly related to that the case is not so big in Malaysia.
Malaysian reporters have probably done some investigations. IIRC, Gateway Klang denying that Ufun had some type of partnership or investment came from Malaysian media (e.g. from Sarawak Report).
And are prohibited from conducting an independent investigation because…?
Oh right, sedition.
Nobody filed complaints in significant numbers until Thai police shut uFun Club down locally.
A $1.17 billion dollar Ponzi scheme being operated within your jurisdiction is not a “big case”?
China, Vanuatu, the FBI, Thailand and other countries investigating uFun Club would disagree.
Cmon Norway, stop making excuses for corruption.
yeah, and sarawak and malaysiakini were quick to toe the ‘official line’ soon after their initial publications.
look at that ^^ language! which independent news agency uses this kind of ‘bowing&scraping’ reportage!
have you read any news articles from sarawak and malaysiakini since? all the news about UDBP bank, all the news about the management running and hiding in plain sight in malaysia, all the news about people laundering money into malaysia, all the news about the china investigation and arrests, and all the news about the indepth investigations in thailand ?
norway, it’s nice that you want to give malaysia the benefit of doubt, it’s nice that you want to play fair, it’s nice you want to be the voice of reason, BUT there’s just too much hanky panky here to Excuse!
“No” to the first question. I haven’t read or looked at Malaysian online newspapers since late May. It simply isn’t very relevant for me to read Malaysian newspapers.
The second question is based on many different countries. If you ask some Malaysian online newspapers, you will probably be told that they don’t focus specifically on Ufun, Utoken, Thailand, China or Vanuatu.
That shouldn’t surprise you? Did Indian online newspapers cover those stories?
And we’re live: https://behindmlm.com/mlm-reviews/umatrin-review-ufun-club-plan-b/
The $1.17 billion Ponzi scheme operated in Thailand.
Ufun Club operated locally in Malaysia too, but it was banned in July 2014. Malaysian police have 3 suspects, but I don’t think they have any specific charges against them.
It’s rather important to separate between different countries here.
SEC probably first started to investigate TelexFree in June 2013, when it was shut down in Brazil. The first arrest happened 10 or 11 months later when TelexFree had filed for bankruptcy in the U.S.
Like uMatrin, uFun Club was being promoted in Thailand and run out of Malaysia. It’s still being run out of Malaysia.
Ufun operated in many jurisdictions. It seemed to originate out of Hong Kong before it moved to Malaysia.
The operation in Thailand was probably organized locally, e.g. from the Ufun Tower. It seemed to be used as a “World Headquarter”, e.g. many of the promotional videos were shot there.
We must look at the realities. Ufun Club was raided locally in Thailand by Thai police, in the Ufun Tower building and several other locations in Thailand. Some organizers had already left the country, and three of them were Malaysian citizens.
The Thai police requested some initial information about the whereabouts for those three Malaysian citizens, while further requests would go through MLAT (Money Laundering and Anti Terror office) or through diplomatic channels.
There’s multiple connections between Thailand and Malaysia there, but the $1.17 billion Ponzi scheme was located and operated primarily in Thailand.
indian news is not covering ufun, because india, unlike malaysia is not the epicenter of the scheme.
danial tay&party have not taken refuge in india, and given statements to the press.
the indian prime ministers son was not caught hobnobbing with the founders of the ufun scheme. if that had happened in a scam the size of 1.17 billion USD, i can tell you our newspapers,TV channels and opposition parties would have created a lot of noise. such scandalous stuff is good for TRP!!
the thai police has not requested help, engaged with the indian embassy repeatedly, had meetings with indian police in phuket, to encourage cooperation with the ufun case and ufun runaways.
i cannot imagine an indian newspaper saying:
that ^^ would have become the press joke of the year.
You mean “hypocenter”, the focus point, “center of explosion” or “ground zero”? That should normally be Thailand.
In 2013 or early 2014 it could have been Malaysia.
But now you’re focusing on the person rather than the case. Media should normally have a different focus than that.
They did cover it, but they came to a different conclusion than you did.
1. “Fugitive Ufun ‘datuk’ rubs shoulders with politicians”
2. “Ufun – ‘Why Najib’s son not questioned?’ poser”
3. “This is a smear campaign, says Najib’s son”.
Even the opposition party (DPA) tried to make some noise.
So they seem to have done exactly what we could expect them to do.
According to the April 16 request letter, further contact would go through MLAT or diplomatic channels.
Thai press covered that, e.g. they covered when the case was upgraded to transnational.
CONCLUSION
“Malaysian press don’t see it as I do!” seems to be the main problem here. They seem to have covered relevant parts of the case, but we will only pick up a fraction of it.
They don’t have the same focus as you have. They haven’t “programmed their brains” in the same way you have. But you can’t seriously expect them to do that?
One problem in this case is that the sources primarily seem to be “promotional material”. The screenshots are from that type of sources.
Malaysian company search seems to require a login, so I didn’t use that.
Zoominfo only had minimal information about uMatrin Worldwide Sdn Bhd, it didn’t list any people. It listed the number of people to 1 or 2 (1 management level, 1 marketing person).
uMatrin Group Ltd. is registered as “reporting owner” for uMatrin Holding Limited.
Then I have found 3 different “uMatrin” companies
* uMatrin Worldwide Sdn Bhd (Malaysia)
* uMatrin Group Limited (Seychelles) Eu Hin Chai
* uMatrin Holding Limited (USA) Warren Eu and Michael A Zahorik
it seems that warren eu’s full name is – Dato’ Sri Dr. Warren Eu Hin Chai.
he used different parts of his name in different companies in an attempt at amateur obfuscation?
look at the award he received yesterday at the TOP excellence brand awards, his full name is written on it:
facebook.com/umatrin/photos/pcb.906896389370801/906896359370804/?type=1&theater&_rdr
kuala lumpur march 26,2015:
so warren eu has set up a web of companies quite similar to ufun. that’s just how these guys roll.
no, the main problem seems to be in our varying perceptions.
you think 3/4 articles from the malaysian press are ‘enough’ to show unfettered honest coverage of the ufun scam exploding in their neighborhood, with all fingers pointing at malaysia.
i think its just ‘not enough’ and a clear indication that the malaysian press is high stepping around the ufun story.
it seems we cannot change each others perceptions.
“Limited” isn’t a Malaysian type of company?
From one of the press releases:
So UMATRIN HOLDING LIMITED is the same company as Golden Opportunities Corporation, 520 S. SNOWMASS CIRCLE, SUPERIOR, Colorado 80027. If I have interpreted it correctly.
But I still haven’t found any reliable link between uMatrin and royal family.
I have interpreted it this way:
1. The link between royal family members and uMatrin is uMatrin’s own marketing material.
2. The link between uMatrin and uFun is Warren Eu.
correct. renamed. rechristened. whatever.
correct interpretation.
also, the royal family member is On the Website of umatrin. that, is a step beyond ‘marketing material’. that’s like ‘factual’.
lets see when the royal family member gets his photo removed from the umatrin website. should be anytime soon now.
We don’t know much about WHAT Malaysian press have covered?
They have probably covered a lot more than 4 stories.
I have accepted that they probably have covered what they could be expected to cover. You probably feel they have covered too little / wrong focus.
MalaysiaKini didn’t “step around” the Nazifuddin story, but it had to take a few step backwards when new facts became available. Sarawak Report did the same.
Nazifuddin had resigned from Sagajuta long time ago, and he wasn’t a majority shareholder in that company. The only “story” they had left was that he was a guest in The Miss Wilayah Kebaya 2013.
You probably feel they should have focused more on the Miss Kebaya story?
yeah, the ‘New Facts’ were that nazifuddin first denied he had any association with sagajuta, and when the ‘fact’ about him being a shareholder in sagajuta came out, he denied sagajuta had anything to do with ufun.
the ‘New facts’ were also that he said he first heard of ufun only during the ufun/binapuri signing, but when the ‘fact’ that he was hanging out with ufun founders before that, came to light, he said ‘aw, that was a ‘miss kebaya contest!’ howdidiknow!’
these guys are just a bunch of innocents– both nafizuddin, son of the PM, and tengku the son of the sultan of selangor. they don’t know nothing. bad people just keep using their name over months and years and they just don’t know how to stop it.
however they do know how to make the press report ‘their facts’and shutup, and they do know how to send C&D’s to anyone who will raise a question or point towards evidence against them .
norway, why does tengku’s C&D to behindmlm, NOT say anything about umatrin?
it should have said– tengku has nothing to do with ufun or umatrin!
an innocent would have replied like that^
OR it should have said — yes tengku is with umatrin which is completely legal!
the slidearound umatrin by tengku makes me feel your sympathies and excuses are wasted!
You have got several explanations for that.
I will look at available facts, e.g. the 3 MalaysiaKini stories and the 2 Sarawak Report stories. I will analyse it based on factors like that, “Have they covered it properly?”.
And if they seem to have covered it properly then I will usually accept it.
* I accepted Sarawak Report as a source in the first report, and I also accepted the corrections they made in the second report (“when other facts had become available”).
You start from your own focus, where Malaysia is the epicenter of the scheme and Miss Wilayah Kebaya 2013 was a uFun event (and many other details).
* You accepted Sarawak Report as a source in the first report, but you didn’t accept the corrections they made in the second report (“when pressure from authorities forced it to make corrections”).
I have no idea. I focus on available facts, and since he didn’t mention anything about it then I saw no need to focus on it either.
He has most likely been demanded to send a C&D letter. I don’t think he’s authorized to ask questions about the Sultan’s business involvments. 🙂
It isn’t primarily about that. I simply feel the connection there is far too weak (based on my fact focused view).
It’s not about sympathy either, but I have a rather neutral “basic respect” for people. It doesn’t really matter who they are or what they are. So that will also include the Sultan and the lawyer. They deserve the same respect as anyone else.
They don’t dispute Tangku’s link to Umatrin.
They simply don’t want him mentioned in an article about UFUN.
He could probably have accepted to be mentioned. It was the “neck deep in Ponzi fraud” he didn’t like. 🙂
So he has a position here too, on this website?
He’s ON this website too, in an article about Ufun. We can try to place him as a “founding member”.
I will see it as “too vague to draw any conclusion”. I will never use info like that as the only source if it is about something important.
neither do they admit/deny tengku’s links with umatrin. they have kept it in the ‘deal with this later’ basket, depending on whether umatrin gets in trouble or not.
as i see it, the article here was both about tengku’s involvement with umatrin, and probable association/knowledge of ufun due to warren eu.
by not addressing umatrin at all, i see a slimy slidearound and i smell fishiness.
blown up photos of tengku forming the backdrop at umatrin events declaring him to be the chairman, his presence on the website of umatrin, are of course not ‘proof’, some money trail will have to be established by investigators which may never happen.
but commonsense and simple logic tells me that tengku’s photo can’t be plastered on umatrin functions and its website without there being no connection.
umatrin works from kuala lumpur, which along with selangor is historically the playground of the sultan and his family.
as if ponzi schemes can use the sultans son’s name so blatantly in its events right in the middle of kuala lumpur, and on their website without being stopped immediately.
the thing with politicians and other powerful people is that it may not be easy to charge them ‘formally’ with a crime, because they cover their tracks well.
these kinds of people can be only ‘exposed’ publicly and this helps to restrain them from repeating such activities for fear of loss of reputation.
What! tengku is the chairman of behindmlm?
I don’t think the lawyer know what uMatrin is, other than that it was mentioned in that article. A lawyer can’t spend his clients’ money on doing “internet research” like we can.
The C&D letter was about the attempt to link the royal family to Ufun Ponzi scheme (after expressions like “neck deep in Ponzi fraud”). They probably know what Ufun is because of media coverage, but you can’t reasonably expect them to know what uMatrin is.
that’s just it , the C&D has a problem with tengkus name being associated with ufun, but has no problem about his name being associated wit umatrin.
the article on behindmlm has a lot of info about tengku, umatrin, tan sri jojo, warren eu. it’s obvious tengku and his lawyers have no problem with this part because they have not commented on it, YET they want the whole article to be taken down?
they should clearly say- please take down any reference about tengku having involvement with ufun.how can they demand for the whole article to be atken down, when they have not disputed all the information in the said article?
oz’s article has a blow up photo of tengku at a umatrin event, and yet you think tengku’s lawyers will have no idea what umatrin is?
c’mon their clients photo was the backdrop of a umatrin event, they will sure as hell investigate that. and if tengku had nothing to do with umatrin their C&D would say that!
really norway ask your excuses to grow half a leg at least, if not two.
It was a test of your “ON the site = factual” reasoning.
The fact that something is stated on a website doesn’t automatically mean it’s true or factual. I would have ranked uMatrin’s website low on a scale for “expected reliability”. I would never have used it as the only source in a case like this.
Currently I haven’t found any reliable sources identifying a link between uMatrin and the royal family. I will look for facts / reliable sources.
Zoominfo listed only 1 “Management” for the Malaysian uMatrin Worldwide Sdn Bhd. That’s probably Warren Eu, but it didn’t list the names.
* umatrin.com states a connection
* Zoominfo indicate “no other managers than Warren Eu”
Nah, those royal wankers cannot even get by oppressing their citizens, they had to defraud them as well.
Any bum on the beach of Rio de Janeiro is more rich than them.
if you think you will find nafizzudin’s name on an official document of ufun or tengku’s name on an official document of umatrin then you’re just plain crazy. that’s NOT how these shady collaborations work.
it’s only made evident ‘informally’ that these big names are behind the scheme, so that people feel their participation in the company is safe and has the endorsement from the ‘powers that be’.
malaysia is choc a block with royalty, why has tengku been singled out and his photo used as a backdrop for an event, and on the website of umatrin?
some things are plain to see.
so, where is tengku’s C&D to umatrin? he can throw warren eu in jail for sedition in a jiffy.
yet warren eu is floating in and out of malaysia and having parties in korea.
“Any other name” will cover uMatrin too. The lawyer have probably assumed they’re part of the same scheme. The article indicates that they are part of the same.
He may have done some research on this website.
You will need to check the source. Currently you’re only checking your own ideas about how you had expected them to react.
From the offending article:
It isn’t easy to identify whether they’re parts of the same scheme or two different schemes from that source.
Even I had difficulties identifying the logical reasoning in some parts of that article. I gave up checking it in post #6.
One example:
I have no idea how any of those people, projects or companies are linked to uFun or uMatrin.
When I have problem understanding the material then there’s probably something wrong. I should normally be familiar with most of the material there.
And if I don’t understand it myself then I don’t expect others to understand it either.
bah. tengku should fire those lawyers for ‘assuming’ stuff, when the article clearly mentions umatrin ‘several’ times, and they have ‘neglected’ to mention it in their C&D.
the word ‘might’ is used. it is not a ‘declaration’ it is a ‘suggestion’ based on he evidence available. it’s similar to how news agencies cannot say ‘ufun is a scam’ but can say ‘ufun is an alleged scam’.
look, tengku’s photos were used in umatrin’s events and are still on their website. he needs to address THAT first, and send C&D’s later.
where has the article alleged that beng seng or singapore capital is involved in ufun/umatrin? that is just a quote from a news article showing that the sultan and jojo are ‘together’ in a big construction project.
that’s not fair. just because you don’t ‘get’ something doesn’t mean the whole world can’t.
it’s totally okay, if YOU don’t get it.
You can’t seriously expect to get any meaningful answers to questions like that? 🙂
I have tried to check these elements:
1. The C&D letter (post #3).
2. The offending article (post #6).
3. Umatrin (post #13)
4. The offending article (post #20)
5. How Malaysian newspapers have covered the story (post #26)
6. The Now26 interview / Sarawak Report (post #49)
7. Company search / EDGAR → Umatrin (post #59)
8. The C&D letter and the article (post #82)
The reason why I had to check uMatrin was because the article only vaguely identified some sort of connection.
The reason why I checked Now26, MalaysiaKini and Sarawak Report was because it was brought up in the discussion. I checked previous answers, I didn’t check the originals this time.
And Oz is floating around somewhere too. 🙂
TTT “Things Takes Time” when it comes to investigation.
oz is floating in blogland and you want him to restrict him to articleland.
there are distinct differences between articles and blogs.
blogs
– are conversational not mere reportage
– most blogs extend the conversation to readers for their ‘opinions’
– blogs convey the ‘opinion’ of the writer, they are not just assimilated reportage of ‘facts’. they can express the writers ‘opinion/position’ on available facts.
articles [as in news articles]
– purely factual
– mere reportage
– do not express the ‘opinion/position’ of the reporter
the malaysian PM’s son or the malaysian royalty are not above the opinions of the public, when they get themselves ‘shot’ with international scamsters.
the public’s opinions are based off evidence available in the public domain. the accused can deny it, but they cannot go around threatening people for pointing fingers at them.
the internet has just made it possible for a private persons views to go viral. blame the internet, don’t attack freedom of speech.
I didn’t mean that type of floating around. He hasn’t been arrested yet, he’s only under investigation. 🙂
uh, WHO is under investigation and WHO has not been arrested yet??
i hope you mean sagajuta and its shareholders, and umatrin and it’s ‘royal’ connections!
i hope you mean ufun and umatrin.
You will need to check the source. And you will need to get some others to check it for you, someone with a “fresh mind”.
People without specific knowledge about the scheme can’t reasonably be expected to be able to identify whether uMatrin is a part of the same scheme, a new version of the same scheme or a different scheme.
The fact that uMatrin is mentioned won’t tell them anything about that. The article was rather vague about uMatrin. You can look at those difficulties I had?
you know what.
BEFORE people send out C&D’s they should identify the facts.
nobody sends out C&D’s without some due diligence.
if the son ot the sultans lawyers are incapable of simple net searches, tengku should just Fire Them!
It was quoted from the last “green box” quote in that article.
I initially tried to check factual content, but I gave it up in post #6.
He has most likely quoted something directly from the article.
oh frig!
IIRC, the son of the PM of malaysia, and the chief owner[ raymond chan] of sagajuta, also filed complaints against Ufun last year.
now, the son of some malaysian ‘royalty’ claims they have filed a police report against behindmlm.
i think previous complaints should be acted upon by the malaysian police, before tackling ‘newer’ complaints.
i mean ufun is a 1.17 billion USD scheme, and behindmlm is just a blog. urgencywise speaking, malaysian police should first investigate ufun.
if He [tengku and lawyers] have quoted something from the article, they could not have missed ‘several’ mentions of umatrin.
i mean how badly at reading can anyone get?
That’s exactly how it works. “Investigation takes time”. They don’t just sit there waiting for new cases to arrive, playing cards just to have something to do, looking out of the window from time to time.
Oz has tried to speed up the process by posting a new article, “here you have more of the same”. 🙂
The problem is that the article doesn’t link to any original sources for uMatrin (it doesn’t have any reliable sources either). It links to one of your comments as the only source. It will be impossible for him to check anything there.
You identify your two sources like this:
“Here is” and “another ufun website” won’t make any sense for anyone trying to check sources. It made sense there and then as a part of a dialogue, but it won’t make any sense for the lawyer.
I won’t spend more time trying to analyse your ideas about why he didn’t specifically mention uMatrin. I have tried to look at whether he reasonably could be expected to identify the facts there based on the material in the article.
all tengku’s lawyers need to check, is the photo of their boss in the backdrop of a umatrin event, and the photo of their boss on the umatrin website.
then they can check if warren eu has any connection to ufun. there is sufficient evidence on the net for this.
why depend on any one person’s comment?
If I have interpreted it correctly, the offending article is probably based on some theories around “Why haven’t the Malaysian police done anything to arrest the Ufun organizers?”.
Now26 indicated some “sensitive issues” in the interview with the former journalist from “The Star”. The theories seem to have been based partly on that, but some theories probably existed already before that.
The Prime Minister’s son was identified as part of that “sensitive issue”, based on the material found on the internet (uFun promotional material, Miss Kebaya, Sarawak Report, Sagajuta, etc.).
The theory was strengthened by this:
Here’s one problem. It was added directly to a theory without properly checking the facts. It was already known that Thai police had contacted Malaysian police on April 16th about something.
Here it was interpreted in a different context, as part of a “bigger theory”.
That article will need to be checked for how it has interpreted the information.
That article seems to have assumed “The Malaysian police is lying. They were contacted on April 16th”. But the April 16 request was only about assistance to identify the whereabouts of those 3 suspects, it didn’t ask for any formal investigation about something.
That formal request seems to have been made on May 8, so that particular police source most likely told the truth.
It was already known, e.g. from the Now26 interview, that Malaysian police was waiting for some formal requests from Thailand. The April 16 letter was a different type of request.
Nazifuddin denied any links to uFun on May 14.
That article failed to check how Interpol actually works, the methodology.
The local Interpol office will most likely contact local district police for identification of those 3 suspects (the primary request).
It will most likely inform some central police authorities too.
Interpol has some additional functions too, but they were not relevant for the initial request.
The April 26 article identifies Interpol like this:
It doesn’t tell anything about methodology, only that NCB is “staffed by highly trained police officers” and normally is a part of the national police force.
That’s too vague to draw any conclusions from, or to build a theory upon.
I have tried to check these elements:
1. The C&D letter (post #3).
2. The offending article (post #6).
3. Umatrin (post #13)
4. The offending article (post #20)
5. How Malaysian newspapers have covered the story (post #26)
6. The Now26 interview / Sarawak Report (post #49)
7. Company search / EDGAR → Umatrin (post #59)
8. The C&D letter and the article (post #82)
9. The story leading up to that article (posts #99, #100, #101).
I have only checked it briefly, but there seems to be misinterpretation of the facts in the April 26 article, leading to a conclusion that Malaysian police was lying about requests from Thai police. It has most likely affected other conclusions too.
But the article doesn’t link to the source there?
How can the lawyer be able to know anything about the photo of his boss on uMatrin’s website?
And that should lead to which conclusion?
Forget about “on the net”. The lawyer can’t reasonably be expected to use that method.
He had this section of the article to look at:
It isn’t easy to understand that combination of info, e.g. the link to the Ponzi scheme. I tried to look at it in post #6.
One problem there is that Oz already had accepted some theories as true, and the article was written from that specific viewpoint. It wasn’t written to analyse something but rather to prove that Tengku was heavily involved in a Ponzi scheme.
I tried to google “warren eu connection to ufun”. It doesn’t lead to any meaningful results. The two first search hits are BehindMLM, the third one is a “pressreader.com” and will require a login to read full news stories.
pressreader.com/malaysia/the-malaysian-reserve/20150518/281560879374366/TextView
I could probably improve the search results by changing the search string, e.g. “Warren Eu ufun founder”. But I believe it will be better to drop the whole idea about what the lawyer potentially could have found on the internet.
I have looked at the April 24 Now26 interview again. The reporter shares relatively openly what she know about the case, including that “a family member of a certain politician was involved as an active chairman in one of the sister companies [of uFun]” (based on media information).
But the conclusion drawn from that interview is incorrect. She doesn’t say that “Malaysian political scandal delaying uFun Club investigation”. She gives quite different information.
That part was completely ignored. It was even shown on the screen.
The April 24 article cherry picks information from the news story, from one small part of it, and makes it into a more dramatic story. It should have been balanced against the factual information she delivered, but that was ignored completely.
behindmlm.com/companies/ufun-club/malaysian-political-scandal-delaying-ufun-club-investigation/
The information about “a family member of a certain politician was involved as an active Chairman in one of the sister companies of UFun” originated from Malaysian media sources, from THEIR investigation. The factual part came from the Malaysian media, but the drama came from here.
She didn’t disclose any details there (which politician, which company), she only mentioned that it was a “sensitive issue”. But she did NOT say that it caused some delays in the investigation, that conclusion was drawn here.
Oops, I forgot to link to the April 24 Now26 interview (my previous post).
now26.tv/view/42300/MALAY-INITIATES-INVESTIGATION-INTO-ALLEGED-UFUN-PONZI-SCHEME.html
The type of investigation mentioned there is probably a civil one, done by the Domestic Trade Ministry. They’re probably talking about an agency or a regulator, not the Ministry itself.
“April 16 misinformation”
Many theories seem to have been based on this statement from a Thai media source “UFun Store chairman and wife wanted for fraud”.
“Seeking their extradition” seems to have become an “anchor piece” for the Malaysian part of the story, where all subsequent pieces of information have been connected to that same “anchor”.
Later information has shown that the Thai police authorities didn’t seek extradition there.
“The next three pieces of misinformation”
The first piece is related to the same news source but a new story, “UFun Group cancels press conference today for Thai media”.
1. Dato’ Daniel Tay cancelling press conference for Thai media in Kuala Lumpur.
2. Royal Thai Police assistant commissioner Pol Lt Gen Suwira Songmetta in a press conference, talking about cooperation from Interpol (same source).
3. A press conference from the day before, where Thai police urged reporters to attend the UFun press conference in Kuala Lumpur.
MY COMMENT
Press conferences seem to be a source of exaggeration here.
Interpol is independent, even if the local Interpol office is a part of the local police organization. So Interpol will carry out requests in their own way, and follow proper international procedures.
They will not follow the Thai police policy “Arrest first, focus on formalities later”. So Interpol asked about whereabouts rather than for arrests.
Many of the UFun Malaysia articles have been “anchored” to the first pieces of information, but those pieces should have been corrected when new information became available.
I can most likely find “acceptable solutions” here.
* The Sultan will need to get a solution he can accept.
* The lawyer will need a solution he can accept.
* Oz will need a solution he can accept.
It isn’t more difficult than that. The difficult part is that people usually must have something to offer. And the most difficult part is that they usually don’t realize it themselves.
The easiest one is the lawyer. He will primarily be interested in a solution his client can accept, one his client can see as “more favorable”, “less risky”, “less burdensome” etc. than other solutions.
He will get very happy if he can get more than expected, whatever that might be.
The Sultan is an “unknown factor” here. I can’t use the same type of reasoning on him.
@Oz
Do you intend to defend this in court, if necessary?
The reason for the question is that you haven’t made any decision, you only reacted to the C&D letter from habit. Decision is about something different.
In Malaysian court? Of course not. You think the Sultan is going to lose in court?
Winning a case against the Malaysian royal family by definition is sedition. So it’s lose-lose even if you win.
If anything is filed in the US we’ll go from there. Good luck filing Malaysian sedition lawsuits in the US though… And I suspect the Sultan won’t want to expose his son to discovery in a foreign jurisdiction.
Today the Thai criminal report is due and I’m hoping Malaysian police might be able to use it as a foundation to properly investigate the scheme. Throw in uMatrin’s shenanigans in the US with SEC registration, and I’m thinking that regulatory action against both schemes will only further spotlight Tengku’s involvement.
He’s had plenty of time to distance himself as Nazifuddin did, but is instead laying low.
With the lawyer letter out on behindMLM, it has exposed somewhat connection directly or indirectly.
If the UFUN case in Thailand has level up to transnational case, Interpol has to step in if the Malaysian Police still wont budge in investigating the case.
No. That’s one of the reasons for why I asked. You have a relatively weak case against him.
The other reason is that I didn’t see any clear decision, only the same type of reaction to the C&D letter like you had to previous C&D letters. You didn’t really analyse the case.
Gerald Nehra had a weak case, and he knew it. There’s nothing wrong in writing an article about a regulatory investigation against a company in Brazil, which happens to use the same brand name as his U.S. client. And his U.S. client was a Ponzi scheme.
This client is different. The lawyer has no reason to back out of the case. It doesn’t really matter which geographical jurisdiction you’re talking about.
He may back out if the case becomes too burdensome to be worth fighting, but he will not back out for the same reasons as the other lawyers did.
So the idea that the lawyer will back out of the case isn’t really any decision, but rather a hope.
The difference here is that it will not be the owner of a Ponzi scheme that will sue you here, but the respected Sultan of Selangor or one of his family members.
You will not be sued because you claimed IT was a Ponzi scheme, but because you insinuated that HE was heavily involved in it.
The lawyer doesn’t have the same motives here. He will not be forced to defend a fraudulent business in court, he will only need to defend that his client hasn’t been involved in that business.
He will not need to prove it, you will need to prove your case that his client really has been involved. I have analysed the material from that perspective, and I haven’t found any proofs.
That’s not how the US courts work.
As for Malaysian courts, couldn’t care less.
He will need to prove that you have made those claims. He will not need to disprove those claims, but he can of course do that too.
You will need to prove that those claims are true, factual and relevant, that you’re not simply making insuniations because you feel for it.
It would have been the same for TelexFree too, but there you would only have needed to prove that your own material was true and factual. In that case it was about an investigation in Brazil, combined with some Ponzi scheme statements.
Those Ponzi scheme statements were based on a factual analysis of the compensation plan. You would not have needed to prove that TelexFree operated like a Ponzi scheme in reality, only that your own material was true and relevant (for people reading reports like that).
Gerald Nehra (or any other expert) would have felt really uncomfortable if he would have needed to explain his own pseudo compliance adjustments to the compensation plan.
This lawfirm doesn’t have those reasons to back out of a lawsuit.
A motion to dismiss will sort that out quick smart.
You need to state a claim and part of that is adequately explaining your complaint. Sedition as it exists in Malaysia does not exist in the US, rendering much of Tengku’s C&D meaningless.
And anyway, uMatrin is just as much a Ponzi scheme as uFun Club.
Need proof? Go look at the business model.
That and Tengku’s connection is more than enough to make the Malaysian royal family uncomfortable in court. Well, any court outside of Malaysia.
Defamation exists in the U.S., and so does tort claims. And so does privacy rights. But I wasn’t talking about a specific court system, only about the idea of defending it in court.
I have looked at the material. It looks like you have fallen for the old idea “People will believe what they SEE if it looks believable enough”.
What you SEE in that photo is a photo of Tengku being projected onto a screen, with some text identifying him as Chairman.
You don’t see HIM there, you only see someone presenting him as the Chairman.
They could have presented a photo of Barack Obama as the Chairman, but then you wouldn’t have believed in it because you don’t have those ideas about Barack Obama.
It seems to be about those IDEAS you already had.
You have accepted the uMatrin website as “trustworthy” and “believable” as a source. “If uMatrin claims he is the Chairman then he surely must be it”.
Well I certainly was. Discussing broad hypotheticals across undefined jurisdictions seems like a waste of time to me.
Infront of a man giving a presentation on a podium emblazoned with the uMatrin logo, and the knowledge that Tengku has taken no legal action against uMatrin, nor has he filed a police report alleging misuse of his name.
Tengku also features on numerous images directly hosted on the uMatrin website. What exactly he’s credited as isn’t clear as its in Chinese, but I’d be willing to bet it’s a “Chairman” equivalent.
Again, no action has been taken by Tengku in regard to these images that we’re aware of. Nor was any disclosed by Tengku’s lawyer.
You don’t know that?
I looked into that part too (e.g. post #97). It wasn’t easy to understand the connection there, and you didn’t link to the original source (uMatrin’s website, etc.). You linked to Anjali’s comment in a different thread.
I looked briefly at that website, but I didn’t look specifically for photos of Tengku. The problem is that you haven’t analaysed the type of source. You should have linked to official registries clearly identifying him as a Chairman or Director for the company.
I know Tengku’s lawyer thought it pertinent enough to mention a police report filed against BehindMLM, but nothing about uMatrin.
Good enough for me.
That you know of. A lot of behind-the-scenes work goes into the articles here. The source in this instance is uMatrin itself, which again is good enough for me.
Good enough to prove what?
The fact that uMatrin has used Tengku’s photo in marketing proves exactly that. It doesn’t prove that he is the Chairman of uMatrin.
It proves that you probably have worked on autopilot.
If uMatrin had used a photo of Obama then it would have proved exactly the same. Would you have believed in the proof then?
If he sent me a C&D and didn’t clarify he had nothing to do with uMatrin then sure, why not.
I’m kind of over this chief, the level of logic being applied has reached dumbass…
But WHY should he tell you that?
You haven’t identified that you have any ownership or a leading role in that company?
If you had found one or more photo of yourself there, “Oz on Behind MLM, Chairman of uMatrin Group”, would those photos have been believable?
I’m not trying to prove anything with that. It’s a method to “proof test” ideas, a method to test identifiable elements of an idea one by one, “is this part of the idea correct?”.
If you wouldn’t believe in photo of yourself, then you shouldn’t believe too strongly in photos of Tengku either.
Having received more a few C&Ds, supporting information is usually included in the notice.
You can’t expect people to act on your demands without giving them something to go on.
No, because I’d be able to clarify I have nothing to do with the group.
Like I said, we’re clearly getting into dumbass logic territory here. I get devil’s advocate but I do think the discussion has run its course.
there are still a few more syllables that need to be parsed.
If that “proof test” failed = if you wouldn’t have accepted it as proof if the photos had showed you as the Chairman, then it’s time to recheck your proofs. Those photos have been among the core arguments.
There’s no rational reason for why photos on a website only can act as proof if they show a specific person. The same type of proof should work on any person, including yourself.
“Buy some time”?
But first it’s probably time to “buy some more time”. The C&D letter said within 7 days, and the lawyer will probably check the offending article Tuesday or Wednesday.
The correct way is to communicate via email, the same method he used, but an alternative method will probably work.
That “alternative method” can be to temporarily remove the offending article, replace it temporarily with a new one (under the same web address, so the lawyer can find it).
That new article should only contain a short message with 4 elements.
1. “This post has been removed” (or temporarily removed)
2. the reason for it = “due to legal issues”
3. “We are currently checking that issue”
4. A link to a post in this thread (I will need to create that one)
Note that I only tried to identify “which elements will be needed to communicate it to the lawyer?”. The focus was on “which elements?” rather than on the text.
That method will lead to additional info in this thread. I will need to create that post first with relevant info, based on what the lawyer will need to communicate to his client. I will need to analyse something first in a separate post.
WHY?
I tested how prepared you were to defend your case in court. Each answer tried to find solutions where you could avoid it. It was only okay to defend it in a court where the opponent wouldn’t have a valid claim, where you easily could escape.
Other answers pointed to solutions where the opponent would prefer to back out of a lawsuit.
Based on that, it’s probably time to look at more relevant solutions. You can’t base your case on ideas where your opponent will need to back out.
We are getting nowhere with this C&D. Let it be and see how it runs its course.
Oz will surely update us if there is any follow up from the lawyer.
They just wants OZ to take down the article or else further action will be taken (with a $1328 fine and maximum three-year prison sentence on Oz??).
I’m beginning to think that they thought this website is Malaysia-based.
It wasn’t about “clarifying it” but about accepting it as valid proof.
You accepted those photos as valid proof because they supported some ideas you already had. That’s the only reason for why you looked for more “supporting proofs” of the same type.
“Clarifying it” is normally about how to explain it to others (or at least I hope it was that type of “clarification” you were talking about).
But I got the relevant answer = you wouldn’t have accepted photos of any person as valid proof.
The “buy some time” idea was related to that there were a total of 58 UFun stories in the list. Half of them will need to be checked for references to the offending article.
Example from one of them:
Statements like that are typically located near the end of some of the other stories. I have only had a brief look at those stories. That part of the work is more time consuming than I expected.
Photos from that offending story have also been reused in the uMatrin review.
I looked briefly into solutions in post #107.
The lawyer is actually the easy part here. He’s not personally involved in any conflict, he’s just doing his job as a lawyer. He’s trying to resolve a problem for his client, i.e. he will most likely see it from a professional perspective.
Trying to identify HIS perspective won’t make much sense. I’m not familiar with his work, his client, local factors. So I won’t use that method here.
What I would have preferred as a professional will be much easier to identify.
* I would have preferred to deliver the solution the client has asked for, to the right time (with no delays). But I could also have been interested in better solutions. I could also have accepted partial solutions “of the right type”.
* I would have preferred information I could communicate to my client. I would have preferred correct factual information rather than “vague promises”. I would most likely have preferred a “quick overview” rather than a detailed explanation, but I would also have preferred to have access to the details.
* I would have preferred information I could use to make my client feel more relaxed, feel that the situation is under control, feel that this is going in the right direction.
That’s all I managed to identify from that perspective.
Well I do appreciate the input.
I typically don’t respond to C&Ds unless there’s something to actually reply to. You guys don’t see most of them as I only publish the more outrageous ones (which I felt this was, given the complete lack of an argument or supporting information behind it, and the mention of sedition).
Digital Media law Project (dmlp.org) has some general tips for how to handle correction and retraction requests. But the article there is more than 2 years old, and some of the external links are dead.
dmlp.org/legal-guide/practical-tips-handling-requests-correct-or-remove-material
It’s also very “local” for U.S. / Oklahoma in many parts.
That article has the following elements: