Liberty League found to be pyramid scheme in Australia
Yes it’s official.
Yesterday afternoon Rod gave us the exciting news that the NSW office of fair trading had classified Liberty League as a pyramid scheme. Eager to confirm the news myself I sent them an email last night and decided to follow it up with a phone call this morning.
I just got off the phone to the NSW office of fair trading and can now confirm that Liberty League has been found to be a pyramid trading scheme and is illegal to participate in or promote in the Australian state of New South Wales.
The following is a direct quote verbatim read out to me by the NSW office of fair trading.
Fair trading has legal advice confirming that the scheme (Liberty League) is a pyramid sales scheme within the meaning of the act. Participants and promoters who are involved in the scheme not only risk losing their money but are also at risk of being prosecuted.
The office of fair trading conducted their own research into the company back in May, 2009. A copy of their written findings is being sent to me via mail and will be posted on OzSoapbox once received. The above information is a direct excerpt from the findings that was communicated to me verbally.
The ‘act’ the above excerpt cites is the Fair Trading Act (1987). In conducting their own investigation into Liberty League, the NSW office of fair trading found that Liberty League was indeed a pyramid scheme because it met the definition of one under current Australian law.
The legality of participating in the scheme is clearly stated in section 60U of the Fair Trading Act:
FAIR TRADING ACT 1987 – SECT 60U
Prohibition on participating in pyramid selling scheme
60U Prohibition on participating in pyramid selling scheme
(1) A person must not participate in a pyramid selling scheme.
(2) A person must not induce, or attempt to induce, a person to participate in a pyramid selling scheme.
When asked who should we report those promoting or participating in Liberty League in NSW I was told to directly report them to the NSW office of fair trading. Theoretically any other regulatory body able to communicate with the NSW office of fair trading should suffice as their findings and legal investigation are now a “precedent”.
In regards to interstate Liberty League associates promoting the Liberty League business in NSW I was advised that this too was illegal and that if reported the NSW office of fair trading is able to take legal action against those responsible.
The penalties for breaching the Fair Trading act are $22,000 for individuals and $110,000 for businesses.
As for other states I was encouraged to lodge complaints with my local office of fair trading (a state by state list of fair trading contacts can be seen in my previous article, ‘Reporting Liberty League to the Australian authorities‘) and to use the precedent set by the NSW office.
The NSW office of fair trading representative stated that although Fair Trading rulings are practically mirrored from state to state, each individual state office of fair trading must conduct their own investigation into a company before officially releasing a statement.
Given NSW has already set a ‘pyramid scheme’ precedent for Liberty League there was a very strong chance that similar findings would be concluded amongst the various states.
If you wish to confirm the status of Liberty League being classified as a pyramid scheme in NSW yourself, you can contact the office of fair trading on their telephone number 13 32 20.
This Saturday Liberty League are holding a mass recruitment Supercharged Saturday event at the RACV Royal Pines Resort in Queensland. Despite receiving no reply to my previous email outlining my concerns about their involvement in hosting a Liberty League event, I have sent another email with these latest findings.
Specifically I cited the fines associated with promoting Liberty League, the fact that they are hosting a recruiting session for an organisation that has been declared illegal in NSW, a link to this post and the contact details for the NSW Office of Fair Trading so they can verify the claims themselves.
I encourage you to do the same, the RACV Royal Pines Resort can be contacted via email at firstname.lastname@example.org
NSW Liberty League associates can be directly reported to the NSW office of fair trading for breaking the law either by telephone (133220) or online.
I have maintained since my first article on Liberty League that the company is nothing more then a MLM pyramid scheme and findings of the NSW office of fair trading is wonderful news.
Their findings, along with the many experiences shared by readers, the information provided to me by ex-associates (you know who you are) are what has made this action possible. I never dreamed of the response I’d get in writing about what I thought was just an annoying television ad at the time.
Well done guys and thankyou for letting me be a part of it.
Man.. reading that is better than sex!!!
Ok everyone, the job is only half done. The current associates are still in coma mode so will be largely unaware that they are operating illegally. Keep posting and keep linking.
Well done to all especially you Oz for bringing this scam to the attention of fellow Aussies.
I’ve contacted the Royal Pines resort again but probably won’t hear anything back from them.
I also contacted the QLD office of fair trading citing the NSW precedent, the upcoming Supercharged Saturday event, UXL and sixfigure chicks who both promote LLI nationally out of QLD and requested they get back to me.
Will update if they do.
Copy of the email I just sent.
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that there is a conference being held this Saturday(29th) at the Royal Pines Resort in Ashmore for a company called Liberty League International.
It has just transpired that the NSW Office Of Fair Trading has categorised this company as a Pyramid Sales company which is not only illegal in NSW, but the whole of Australia.
This event on Saturday is held a couple of times a year and is a huge recruitment drive for unsuspecting new members.
Recently Foxtel have been showing advertisements for some of the Liberty League Associate websites namely, sixfigurechicks.com uxl.com.au and nowucan2.com.au.
Apparently Today Tonight on chanel Seven endorsed the sixfigurechicks scam earlier in the year. Both these occurrences are a disgrace.
There are several online threads discussing this subject basically pointing people in the right direction as regards these scam artists.
Two of the more prominent are https://behindmlm.com/companies/polaris-media-group/liberty-league-found-to-be-pyramid-scheme-in-australia/
I have emailed the Pines resort as have others expressing our outrage but they are content to ignore the emails so far.
As a leader in the news community, I thought you may be able to bring this utter disgrace to the attention of the general public before some more poor misfortunate people get scammed into parting with their money.
Well done to all concerned in getting NSW to ban these crooks, hopefully Qld will follow suit immediately b4 this Saturday rip-off begins.
Give up guys. Whole formula is changing anyway.
Supercharge Sat is not a recruiting weekend as it is compulsory for everyone going to have already signed up.
Why destroy the best thing that has happened to thousands of people.
You guys should get your facts straight.
Mmmm… So what is it then??
It is a motivational and training day.
SCS is a sales event. It’s to get BF associates all ‘charged up’ and to convince these folks to become accredited at the next product level (i.e. convince them to cough up $10k/$20k to attend the next conference).
Spot on James, I fell for it in Sydney Sept 2008 and now are $50k+ worse off.
What sort of training do you think you’re going to be receiving Monica? I mean you’re all supposed to be coachable and following the 3 step simple system that does all the work for you so what else is there to train for?
As for motivation, well I’m sure the speakers will hype you up enough to get associates through the next few weeks.
If you need any more convincing it’s not a hard sell recruiting day, have a listen to the two following sales pitches for Supercharged Saturday. Try and count how many times ‘initiating your order’ is mentioned.
1. Jump online, order your tickets right away.
2. Buying conference tickets is the same as buying shoes.
I did try to embed the audio but couldn’t turn the auto play feature off which was kind of annoying.
So Monica, you’ve heard from those who’ve been…. what is it then??
There is lots of hype from LLI this week trying to get people to purchase Beyond Freedom, plus the two tiers of conference tickets before super Saturday so you can take advantage of the exciting developments – they say you can have a cooling off period of 10 days with a full refund If you do not purchase before the day then you will not be able to take advantage of the exciting developments. Rachel oliver has been producing a recorded phone call each day lasting 5- 8 mins. So no doubt all the powers that be have already restructured, part of the website will be closed down for updating. Will LLI get away with it in the other states, I hope not. The likes of Rachel Oliver and Shane will be trying to protect themselves in the first instance. I smell a rat!!
Wow that is awesome news! I’ve been busy all week and have just caught up on the new.
Martin and Oz, you rock guys! Thank you so much for getting stuff happening, you are going to save a lot of people a lot of pain anguish and of course, money.
The thing that worries me is because I was in LLI, does that mean I would have no recompense to try and get the money I was screwed out of back because I was unknowingly in a pyramid? Oh man, that sucks. I never wanted to do anything illegal or immoral so it kind of hurts too.
As we’ve talked about in the other thread, it’s been a tough journey trying to reconcile the LLI experience and regretting ever joining, but like we’ve discussed, all of us here who joined went in with the intent of helping others without realising what a big scam it really was. And then we got head f**ked by the cult mentality which makes you feel like a failure when really it’s the system that’s flawed and it’s freaking illegal.
Anyway, it is amazing news. I’ve noticed alot of LLIers advertising on Facebook so today I’m going to do my part and contact Facebook to advise them that LLI/personal development ads are scams. If anyone else is on Facebook please do the same.
Are the findings in NSW that LLI is a pyramid going to be placed on the website? Am just wondering how I will communicate to Facebook that it’s an illegal scam.
Because it’s been found to be illegal, do you think we have grounds for a class action to get our money back? My Advisor was in the US which is a problem, but I was in NSW when I joined.
Do you think Fair Trading would help us with a class action or something? Oz, could you tell me how I could email Fair Trading to discuss this with them. Maybe you could forward me the email that you received so I could forward this to them in my request for assistance to get refunded the money. Man, that would change my life if I could get it back. I think with it being a US company though that I don’t have much hope…what do you guys think?
Those who lost a lot of money, are you keen to band together to email Fair Trading and ask how we get refunded ALL our money??? I am happy for Oz to pass on my email address so we can make a combined effort.
People are starting to hear us, important people with power and the law behind them.
Now that Fair Trading have done something about it, maybe A Current Affair would be interested???
This would be a great way to get the word out there about LLI and shut it down for good in Australia and get ACA to go harass people for a refund of our money!!!!
Contacted Facebook and Fair Trading. Now I’m going to email LLI and get them to send the details of my account to me so that I have a record of it.
I wanted to forget it all so got rid of a lot of stuff. I hope we can get some recompense guys.
Sorry to disappoint you but ll have been discussing whole structure with office of fair trading and after saturday you guys are screwed. Not sure who you are talking to but obviously not high enough up the ladder. So much is changing.
By the way Carla why let yourself go into so much debt. You are responsible for your own actions. I have only been in business 5 months and have purchased all products and have made my money back.
You cant possible believe the Beyond Freedom package is not wonderful. Even Shawn Achor who is professor of positive psychology at Harvard Uni thinks it is the most wonderful personal development program on the market.
Problem is there are always going to be unhappy and miserable people in this world — no wonder you made no money with your negativity.
Bring on Supercharged saturday. Liberty league rocks and has lived up to my expectations and more. All those who signed up under me love it all as well.
It is going to be even easier and better after this saturday.
I just spoke to Office of Fair Trading in NSW and as soon as I asked them for information on Liberty League, they looked it up and came back on the phone and said in their opinion it looks like an illegal pyramid scheme. They asked me to lodge an official complaint.
I also spoke to Office of Fair Trading in QLD and they had no information, and so advised me to lodge a complaint. They said their process is to investigate with other states and the ACCC. The ultimate outcome of an investigation is to have a press release announcing a decision, making it official and more public (what I’m hoping for of course).
So the more complaints we make to each agency the better. Ex associates in particular, please make sure you lodge official complaints with each agency, detailing your losses.
Thanks Oz for all your hard work and for making it easy for people to take action against LLI. And thanks to all the ex LLIers who have shared their stories. Yes it does feel better knowing that I’m not alone in making a bad business decision, although of course I’m sorry for the losses we’ve all experienced. At least I know that there are other nice, caring, motivated people like me, who went into it wanting to help others, and who have the decency to get out when they realise that isn’t what LLI is about.
Now for my happy story… because of the debt I went into as a result of LLI I’ve now gone back to work, and am loving my new job. I work with two wonderful guys who are passionate about helping others and they have taught me so much. I am grateful to be able to spend time with them and to learn from them, and hey they even pay me to be there!! So although I still want to warn others off LLI, I can at least see that my involvement led me to where I am, which is a good place to be.
Liberty League is a legitimate global business approved by the ACCC (our controlling Federal Body and consumer advocate) to operate in Australia and is not viewed by that body as a ‘pyramid scheme’.
Three points I’d like to make to provide a more balanced argument around this notion of a ‘pyramid scheme’ and ‘legality’.
1. Every organisation on the planet is a pyramid and has pyramid compensation schemes within them. The pyramid goes from the bottom, the workers, who get paid little all the way through the line management hierarchy to the top, the CEO, who gets paid more than anybody else. Each level gets paid more than the one below.
2. Most people in organisations who are in a selling capacity are being paid using the principles of a pyramid scheme. A base component and then a series of commissions and bonuses based on their personal performance, the performance of their team and the performance of the organisation as a whole…a pyramid compensation scheme! Almost everybody in a sales management position is paid like this…it’s just not published for all to see.
3. Finally, if you were to Google Jesus Chris, Mother Teresa and Budda you will find those that agree with their philosophies and those that vehemently oppose them. Not just opposing, but in some cases, killing. The same is true about any person, organisation or product here and everywhere else. LL is not exception…and unfortunately the more successful the organisation, person or product the more some people want to pull them down. Certainly makes good editorial.
The Liberty League approach to paying people is absolutely transparent and based entirely on performance. There’s nowhere to hide for the slackers or passengers.
Unfortunately those who vehemently oppose them most likely haven’t been able to cut it with LLI or organisations like it. They failed and so why should anybody else enjoy success.
This campaign of negativity and destructiveness is sad way to live really.
I, and many, many others like me, believe in this business and what it stands for. It is fundamentally helping people to develop positively and it is paying them very well for their success. It’s a humanitarian, enthusiastic and fun environment where lives are changed for the better every minute or everyday.
And seriously what is so bad about that?
On the legal and recouping money front to be honest I have no idea, I’d advise seeking legal counsel and communicating with the NSW fair trading office. Fair trading won’t give you any legal advice but they should be able to give you information from their end that you can then take to a lawyer if you wanted.
Out of curiosity what did fair trading say when you contacted them? So far I’ve only got my conversation I had yesterday with them and the excerpt from their report they allowed me to record in written form. I’m waiting on a copy that should have been sent to me in the mail yesterday.
Hopefully it arrives today or early next week, if I haven’t received anything by wednesday I’ll give them a followup call. Once I get it i’ll be posting it up on here and you’re free to save your own copy.
In the meantime anyone should be able to call up and get them to read out the report. Apparently it was two paragraphs, the part I recorded was the second part.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Glen, nice wall of text. Unfortunately for you, you’re wasting your time here. Those who have already been brainwashed will agree with you, but as for the rest of us, we aren’t stupid enough to believe that it’s a business to “help people with their success”.
So…up until this Saturday and as a Liberty League associate you admit Liberty League has been operating as a pyramid scheme in Australia for the last 2 years?
…just because Liberty League’s lawyers “on the ground” in NSW are talking to the office of fair trading doesn’t negate the fact they’ve currently classed the company as a pyramid scheme.
But yeah, I wouldn’t want to break your ‘trust’ in the EMC crew and Shane Krider who “of course really have (sic) everyone’s best interests at heart”.
Well everyone except you know, all the Australians not in LLI.
I ahve been with LLI for a little over 2 years.
I do have some issues with LLI’s products and pricing, but not with the company itself.
Most people get into the business because of the large sums of money that is possible, regardless of what they are saying on this blog. The problem is that with the huge markup on the products it makes it difficult to provide a value. a 3 day conference not including room and transportation $7995.00 unrealistic. Same with the Summit conference $12,995.00 for 5 days..seriously.
The people on this blog new the pricing when they joined and were overcome with their own greed. The truth hurts..doesn’t it.
Now they realized that it is not as easy as they thought it would be and want to blame someone else for their poor judgement.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not a fan of Rachel Oliver and The Smarts and others that failed to disclose that they had a huge downline from another MLM company prior to comming to LLI and made no mention of that to the people that they brought in. They also fail to mention why they were so successful even to this day.
This is absolutely wrong and I do fault LLI for letting this go on. People should not be mislead by people that try and make this or any opportunity easier than it really is.
If I were you in Australia, I would demend that LLI put a stop to these practices and if they don’t then I would say you have evry right to go after the company itself. I believe however that you would have better luck recovering your money from the people that really lied to you and also received most of the profit.
Good luck Australia!
I have made an online written complaint to the QLD Department of Fair Trading about LLI as a scam and pyramid scheme. I did this today.
The ACCC do not APPROVE Companies of any sort, full stop.
I will be forwarding the above to them so they can see that Liberty League are using false declarations about them on the web.
Just off the phone from the ACCC (1300 302 502)
I thought I’d give Glenn the benefit of the doubt, just in case somehow, overnight, the ACCC decided to start ‘APPROVING’ companies as shonky as Liberty League International.
Sorry Glen… I was correct.
They DO NOT give approvals to anyone.
Dream on Monica… Dream on.
So who have you been talking to at Fair Trading? I would be delighted to call them and hear what they have to say.
The reason Carla and thousands like her are in debt is because of the flaws in Liberty League International as they end up with ‘leaders’ that are complete morons when it comes to advice.
Many examples of this can be seen on the LibertyLeague ning forum.
Q “I’m struggling with getting leads. what can I do?”
A “Go to a conference…. your business will explode”
Hate to burst your bubble but Shawn Achor is a paid event speaker. He was probably telling all those at his next paid speaking event that their XYZ programme is the best he has seen. For $7k I can get Shawn to say what’s on the script.
I wonder too why you think after Saturday everything will change? Why would you want it to change? Is there something wrong with the way things are?
After Saturday you will just be the same s**t, different bucket.
@Glen – the three points you make aren’t “balanced” but based in a misunderstanding or misrepresntation of what consitutes an unlawful pyramid scheme under Australian law, and LLI, SFC, &c, fit that definition. If you don’t like that then you should take the matter of law reform up with your MP.
In particular response to your third point about “Jesus Chris” et al; it isn’t sufficient just to be persecuted, you also have to be right.
I can’t imagine what “due diligence” means to others when only a few hours research and fact-checking on the net has satisfied me that these schemes are not just a bad investment risk, but actually unlawful, something now confirmed by the NSW Dept of Fair Trading. It’s hardly rocket science, just not being blinded by greed.
It can now only be a matter of days before this scheme and its cohorts are named in every State in Australia and their managment subject to regulatory scrutiny. It’s not a conspiracy or tall poppy syndrome but the exposure of an unlawful scam. If I were you I’d be examining my own liability in the matter. The party’s over, time to get an honest job.
Much kudos to BehindMLM and Whirlpool.
Glen, you should read your LLI compliance guide which expressly forbids associates claiming that Liberty League has been approved by any government agency.
This means you are in breach of Section 3.2 Code of Ethics “always be honest in your business dealing” and Section 7.5 “Associates will not represent that any governmental department, agency or official has reviewed or approved the Company’s Program or materials.”
Seems there are many LLI associates who don’t tell the truth in their business dealings… unlike the ex LLIers who are sharing their stories here, and who got out of the business because they do have ethics and don’t want to lie and exploit others to get ahead!
From an ex liberty leaguer which was also ripped off, Well done to all concerned re. action from office of fair trading NSW.
I would love to see this company banned from Australia to save fellow Australian’s from also being scammed.
I cannot believe Foxtel has allowed uxl, sixfigurefatchicks, and nowyoucan2 to run on Australian TV. A birdy tells me this won’t be for long!
I have personally attended the conference events – both Summit and liberty and MY GOD. Talk about brainwashing.
Most of the conference attendees were poor Australian’s which were completely brainwashed by the likes of Rachel Oliver UXL, The Smarts youcandoit2 and sixfigurechicks.
There 5 day Summit conference delivered 12 hours of content for $16,000AUD. Can you believe it??? That’s $1300 per hour for content delivered. I can pay Shawn Achor $1300 p/hour for a one on one session and not have to share him with 1000 people in the room.
How can you seriously put your name to such a product which bluntly rips off consumers?
The only reason why these associates endorse the product is simply because of the $5000 & $8000 US commission margin and they sell themselves the ‘story’ its a GOOD product which if they were truly honest themselves and compared the product offering to other personal development courses they would conclude its the WORST value for money product on the UNIVERSE.
I have also heard of one case whereby an advisor (won’t mention HER name) was trying to convince one of their associates to upgrade to a conference ticket and was threatening they would no longer be eligible to stay in the ‘co-op’ if they don’t upgrade. This is SOOO against ASIC/ACCC. This advisor has been reported to ACCC. They seriously have no idea about the law.
Another young girl I met has QUIT her job to pursue liberty league FULL TIME and has not even made her first two training sales…. CRAZY. I tried to advise her it wasn’t a good idea considering I met others at the event which have been in liberty league for the past 7 months and have not broken their training sales yet. How is this poor girl going to live with no income realistically for months??? Is Centrelink going to provide her the lifestyle liberty league associates advertise?
What I find amusing is these ‘co-op founders’ think they are unstoppable. I wonder what they will do once liberty league is shut down in Australia?
Considering they are good at telesales… maybe call centre operators?
My advise to all the liberty leaguers which are earning decent money who are stressing about LL closing in Australia (which it will, just a matter of time) – Start looking for work and hold onto your cash.
Keep up the great work all.
Look forward to reading further updates.
I am in the states. I was with LL for about a year and a half. I never made one sale! I only lost at the BF level. I did attend a super saturday. It was just basically a sales pitch to get you to buy your conference tickets, not much training. I did everything under the sun to make this work. I was not lazy about it. To keep this biz running, you will constanly need to recruit. On one of the training calls, they state that “1 out of 100 people you prospect with move forward and buy BF”. What a load of crap! I prospected thousands of people. When I sent them to the business overview call, most would never respond, or I would get an email saying this biz sounded too much like a scam. When I would place an ad in the newspaper, there would already be 10 other LL ads. I know this becasue I went down the list and called the 800#s and exacty same script, different voice. Same thing with online ads. It was gettng more difficult to find places to ad. I dabbled in the goggle ad words and payper click. Got visitors to my site, but no takers. Finally after getting so fustrated, I woke up from the LL ether and realized I just could not afford to keep throwing money away each month. It would be great if LL was classified as a pyramid scheme here too. Wonder what other countries they’ve terrorized?
What a sprooker. Everyone must listen to this its hilarious!
Supercharged Saturday is one big event to pressure all the attendees to upgrade to the conferences. I cannot believe she mentions the word ‘ethical’ in this audio.
Rachel Oliver. REALITY CHECK, this business is far from Ethical.
To the Exliberty leaguer, yes, I too met people who quit their job to pursue LL full time. NONE made money! One guy who was lucky enough to have made his training sales + more ended up having to move back in with his parents. He lost his house, his car,and any other thing of value due to LL. He did make 50k his first year, but he told me he spent 40K in marketing and conferences, so he in reality he made a grand total of 10k in 2005! I still know a few people in LL, but they never respond when I ask if they’ve made any money, except one lady who has admitted that she hasen’t even made one training sale yet. She keeps going. She truly believes LL is going to give her financial freedom. I just wish her the best of luck!
I see most of the youtube ads for nowucan2 etc. have disabled their comments and ratings. Shows how much criticism they have been getting and how they are unable to take it.
August 30th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Hello I am back again.Seeing as you insist that LLI Is a “pyramid Scheme” I thought I would shed some light for Oz soapbox and the obvious research that they did not do.
This is what a pyramid scheme is……
Multi-Level Marketing and Pyramid Schemes
Multi-level market (MLM) or network marketing is an American institution. Companies like Amway, Tupperware, Herbalife, Avon, Mary Kay and The Pampered Chef support huge networks of distributors and recruits who sell every type of product from dietary supplements to kitchenware to beauty products. Salespeople are called independent business owners (IBO) and generally work from their homes.
Hulton Archive/Getty Images
Women, some with products on their heads, attend a Tupperware party in 1950. Tupperware is one of the many successful companies that uses multi-level marketing techniques.
On the surface, it’s hard to tell the difference between a legitimate MLM and a pyramid scheme. That’s because they’re both built on the business model of “multiple levels” of distributors and recruits. Some critics of MLMs claim that all of them, even the supposedly “legitimate” ones, are pyramid schemes in disguise.
In a landmark 1979 ruling, the Federal Trade Commission found that Amway was not a pyramid scheme. That ruling has paved the way for hundreds of MLMs to follow Amway’s business model. The Amway Web site highlights the differences between its unique “business opportunity” and a pyramid scheme:
Amway doesn’t pay distributors for simply recruiting new salespeople.
The only way to make money through Amway is either by selling products directly to consumers or by managing a team of salespeople. Managers get a percentage of each of their recruits’ sales.
Amway doesn’t require its salespeople to buy starter kits or impose a minimum monthly order value to stay a member. [source: Amway]
Amway stresses that the main difference between a legitimate MLM business model and a pyramid scheme is that a legitimate MLM is focused on selling products, not recruiting more salespeople. In a legitimate MLM, it should be possible to make money by simply selling products directly to customers. With that main criterion in mind, here are some other ways to identify product-based pyramid schemes:
Pyramid schemes offer money for simply recruiting people. This money can come as a commission from the sale of a starter kit or as a recruiting “bonus.”
Avoid any MLM that puts much more emphasis on recruiting salespeople than selling the actual product.
Pyramid schemes charge steep startup costs for joining, including mandatory training, a starter kit and a non-refundable membership fee.
Beware of any MLM that allows five or more levels of distributors to collect commissions on a single sale.
Make sure that the products being sold have real value and a competitive price. Are they reputable brands? Have the manufacturers been involved in recent lawsuits?
Avoid MLMs that only sell lists of sales leads to other MLM salespeople. This is most likely outdated information that has made the MLM rounds several times before.
Avoid signing up for an MLM as part of a high-pressure motivational event. Consider the information carefully and take it home to think about it.
Be wary of anyone who tries to sell you on an MLM by flaunting their personal wealth. Realize that many of the people who claim to have made millions through MLM have actually made their money selling books and videos on how to make millions through MLMs.
Bottom line: If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.
What is a Pyramid Scheme?
The main characteristic of a pyramid scheme is that participants only make money by recruiting more members. There are many different kinds of pyramid schemes, but the two most basic are product-based and so-called naked pyramid schemes.
In a naked pyramid scheme, no product is sold. Here’s how it works:
One person recruits 10 other people to participate in a “no-fail investment opportunity.”
The 10 recruits each pay the recruiter $100.
The recruiter now tells them to go out and recruit 10 more people to do the same.
If each recruit is successful, they’ll all end up with $900 in profit from a $100 investment.
Sounds simple enough, but here’s the problem: Let’s say the initial 10 recruits each find 10 more people. Those 100 new recruits will have to find 10 recruits each to make $900. That means they have to find 1,000 people willing to sign up for the program. And if they somehow find 1,000 people, that next level of the pyramid will need to sign up 10,000 to make a profit. Eventually, there won’t be enough recruits at the bottom of the pyramid to support the level above it. That’s when the pyramid topples and everyone at the bottom loses their investment.
Pyramid schemes quickly become unsustainable.
A product-based pyramid scheme is the same concept disguised as a legitimate direct sales opportunity. Here’s how it works:
A distributor recruits 10 salespeople who each pay $500 for a starter kit of products to sell.
The distributor gets 10 percent of each starter kit that’s sold.
The distributor also gets 10 percent of each product that any of his recruits sells, including more starter kits.
The recruits are told that the fastest way to make money isn’t by selling products, but by recruiting more people to buy starter kits.
The people at the top of the pyramid get commissions from everyone in their downline, the many levels of recruits below them on the pyramid.
The problem with most product-based pyramid schemes is that the products themselves don’t sell very well, or have very slim profit margins. So the only way to make money is to find more recruits. Eventually (and surprisingly quickly), the market becomes saturated. There are too many people trying to sell the same unattractive product and there’s no one left to be recruited.
It’s mathematically impossible for everyone to make money in a pyramid scheme. For example, if each recruit needs to find 10 more people to recoup the cost of his or her initial investment, the eighth level of the pyramid would have to recruit a billion people to make back their money. And the next level would need 10 billion, nearly twice the population of the Earth.
In fact, pyramid schemes don’t work unless somebody loses. Those at the bottom of the pyramid are essentially defrauded by those on top. It’s a mathematical fact that no matter how many people join a pyramid scheme, 88 percent of the members will be on the bottom level and will lose their money [source: Pyramid Scheme Alert]. Pyramid schemes are illegal because people don’t lose their money due to normal market forces, but because the system requires them to lose so that a few at the top will win.
Studies show that in a naked pyramid scheme, 90.4 percent of people lose their money, while in product-based pyramid schemes, that number jumps to a shocking 99.88 percent [source: Taylor].
Here is some more information on Pyramid schemes
Return to Questions
Things you should know about pyramid schemes
1.They are losers. Pyramiding is based on simple mathematics: many losers pay a few winners.
2.They are fraudulent. Participants in a pyramid scheme are, consciously or unconsciously, deceiving those they recruit. Few would pay to join if the diminishing odds were explained to them.
3.They are illegal. There is a real risk that a pyramid operation will be closed down by law enforcement officials and the participants subject to fines and possible arrest.
Why would anyone pay to join a pyramid scheme?
Pyramid promoters are masters of group psychology. At recruiting meetings they create a frenzied, enthusiastic atmosphere where group pressure and promises of easy money play upon people’s greed and fear of missing a good deal. Thoughtful consideration and questioning are discouraged. It is difficult to resist this kind of appeal unless you recognize that the scheme is rigged against you.
Disguised pyramid – wolf in sheep’s clothing
Some pyramid promoters try to make their schemes look like multilevel marketing methods. Multilevel marketing is a lawful and legitimate business method which uses a network of independent distributors to sell consumer products.
To look like a multilevel marketing company, a pyramid scheme takes on a line of products and claims to be in the business of selling them to consumers. However, little or no effort is made to actually market the products. Instead, money is made in typical pyramid fashion, from recruiting. New distributors are pushed to purchase large and costly amounts of inventory when they sign up.
For example, you might have to purchase $1,000 of nearly worthless products in order to become a “distributor.” The person who recruited you receives $500 (a fifty percent commission) and $500 goes to the top (the company, in this case). Notice the similarity to the simple pyramid scheme described earlier.
Most disguised pyramids, however, are not this easy to unmask. Pyramid schemes often choose products which are cheap to produce but which have no established market value, such as new miracle products, exotic cures, etc. This makes it difficult to tell whether there is a real consumer market for the products. The best way to avoid a disguised pyramid fraud is to know what to look for in a legitimate income opportunity.
Return to Questions
Multilevel Marketing – Legitimate income opportunities
Multilevel marketing is a popular way of retailing in which consumer products are sold, not in stores by sales clerks, but by independent businessmen and women (distributors), usually in customers’ homes. As a distributor you can set your own hours and earn money by selling consumer products supplied by an established company.
In a multilevel structure you can also build and manage your own salesforce by recruiting, motivating, supplying and training others to sell those products. Your compensation then includes a percentage of the sales of your entire sales group as well as earnings on your own sales to retail customers. This opportunity has made multilevel marketing an attractive way of starting a business with comparatively little money.
Return to Questions
How to tell the difference between a legitimate business and a disguised pyramid scheme
Pyramid schemes seek to make money from you (and quickly). Multilevel marketing companies seek to make money with you as you build your business (and theirs) selling consumer products. Before you sign up with a company, investigate carefully. A good way to begin is to ask yourself these three questions:
1.How much are you required to pay to become a distributor?
If the startup cost is substantial, be careful! The start-up fee in multilevel companies is generally small (usually for a sales kit sold at or below company cost). These companies want to make it easy and inexpensive for you to start selling. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, make nearly all of their profit on signing up new recruits. Therefore, the cost to become a distributor is usually high. CAUTION: PYRAMIDS OFTEN DISGUISE ENTRY FEES AS PART OF THE PRICE CHARGED FOR REQUIRED PURCHASES OF TRAINING, COMPUTER SERVICES, PRODUCT INVENTORY, etc. These purchases may not even be expensive or “required,” but there will be considerable pressure to “take full advantage of the opportunity.”
2.Will the company buy back unsold inventory?
IF YOU COULD BE STUCK WITH UNSOLD INVENTORY, BEWARE! Legitimate companies which require inventory purchases will usually “buy back” unsold products if you decide to quit the business. Some state laws and the DSA Code of Ethics require buy-backs for at least 90% of your original cost.
3.Are the company’s products sold to consumers?
IF THE ANSWER IS NO (OR NOT MANY), STAY AWAY! This is a key element. Multilevel marketing (like other methods of retailing) depends on selling to consumers and establishing a market. This requires quality products, competitively priced. Pyramid schemes, on the other hand, are not concerned with sales to end users of the product. Profits are made on volume sales to new recruits, who buy the products, not because they are useful or attractively priced, but because they must buy them to participate. Inventory purchases should never be more than you can realistically expect to sell or use yourself.
So with Liberty League they are in fact a direct sales business or if you like a Multi level marketing business which by the way are legal.
If you want to join a Pyramid scheme join Telstra!
Hey, no need to bother reading all of David’s post, I’ve cut it down for you 🙂
Just like Liberty League International, regardless of whether the law sees it as a “pyramid scheme” or not.
The fact that something may be legal doesn’t automatically make it a business you should get involved with.
Wait a minute, so you agree that Liberty League is a Multi level marketing business, even though every site I’ve seen says “This is not MLM” (with that crappy yellow highlight underneath the crappy text)?
Oops how silly was I to think that you actually typed all that? Google any part of David’s “post” and you’ll see it on several websites.
David. I’ve been looking for a way to describe Liberty League International to a tee…. Thanks for providing the explaination.
Whatever way you look at it, LLI are in the business of ripping off people with deception and false promotion so whether you are a pyramid, mlm, direct sales or whatever, you guys still stink and are illegally trading in NSW.
I’m not sure what drugs you’re on David, but they must be good.
I love that you could remove all the bits from your comment that say LLI isn’t a pyramid scheme and replace them with “This is why LLI is a pyramid scheme”. If you had’ve posted that, people would be high fiving you for totally nailing it. There’s always a rather high “wtf?” factor when someone spends a lot of time clearly highlighting what not to do, and then does it themselves.
David wouldn’t pass a Uni course or even a TAFE subject. I copied his copy and past doccument and got a hit from howstuffworks.com. Bahahahaha!!! Well done David. You’ve just shown us how effective LLI/Lifepath/whatever is next is at teaching it’s executives in how to defend it.
Yeah it was kind of obvious David’s reply was cut and paste.
Protip: If you’re going to cut and paste walls of text don’t leave in the bits referencing images that aren’t copied over.
The problem with comparing Liberty League with all these companies is that they all sell repeatable consumables. I know Amway, Avon and Mary Kay do – I’m assuming herbalife is some herb product and the pampered chef is food?
Either way Liberty League isn’t marketed as a product and you know it. Have a look at SixFigureChicks, UXL or any of the other advertising sites – they all sell the ‘business oppourtunity’ rather then the products as standalone.
Need more proof?
Have a listen to the screening calls. You don’t ask people why they want to join the business, how much they want to earn and how badly if you’re just selling the products on their own.
The fact of the matter is liberty league is not sustainable as a standalone product set. Nobody in their right mind is going to cough up 10’s of thousands every year unless the business opportunity to onsell to others is attached. That’s what makes it different to all those other companies.
Having said that I’m not saying they’re all great and everybody should join them, just that there is a difference so a comparison isn’t accurate.
Do your own research on reputable sites. These blogs are just heresay so make sure you do your own research to find out the facts. Believing anything that is said here is as bad as being sucked in to a Pyramid scheme.
Well, if there’s a $5mil dollar lawsuit happening against LLI US, and the mere fact it’s changed its name to Polaris Media Group (really, we’re not meant to mention that name till Tony tells people to after Tuesday, it seems), the signs aren’t good for anyone involved in this business if government bodies in Australia have called it out for trading illegally.
No one has suggested that this blog is anything more than heresay. And we do encourage research. If everyone did research, they wouldn’t fall for pyramid schemes in the first place.
Looks like we agree 🙂
Jenelle. Could you list some reputable sites for those doing the research please?
By reputable do you mean only limiting yourself to anything that’s published by Liberty League?
The information behind this particular article was sourced directly from the NSW office of fair trading. Between them and Liberty League I know who’s more reputable.
@David – Hate to break it to you, but the US Federal Trade Commission cuts no ice in Australia (or didn’t you read what you posted?).
If you are posting from America thinking American law applies in Australia you are in for a shock. The rapid response of the NSW DoFT in defining LLI as a pyramid scheme is no surprise at all. Our authorities tend to take quite a dim view of these imported sham sales pyramid rackets.
@Jenelle – quite right, this blog is just as bad as a pyramid scheme. The only difference is that you don’t have a 90% chance of taking a 20-50 grand cold bath, crippling debt, losing your home &c, by reading here.
Now we have this site;
linking to this site;
which actually BAGS LLI (2 star rating) compared to LifePath (5 star rating), while the first site appears to represent BOTH in Australia.
Two points worth remembering; participating in a pyramid scheme is unlawful in Australia and the NSW DoFT ruling is very bad news for everyone in LLI.
Promoting a pyramid scheme on the internet from within Australia is inviting either Federal action or extradition to NSW to face fraud charges.
“Blinded by greed” won’t help much but an insanity plea might work.
Research? Sure, try this for a start;
He will only be “poor martin” if he gets into a liberty league business.
Oz, More spam, from Glen this time (above). Might want to disable the “Website” box, at least for now anyway.
I left it all there on purpose just to see your pathetic reaction,and yes I cut and pasted it all.You are all too easy….
Poor Martin!! You will always be just who you are.
Hey Oz soap Box,I have had the last laugh because I am not even a Liberty leaguer or know anyone who is,I just did this for fun to prove a point to someone I know about internet “chat sites” and How people have nothing better to do with their time than complain these days and type messages to people they have never met before.Mission accomplished!Over and out.
Actually Glenn, I’m quite happy with who I am.
I like your website. Pretty much mirrors your contribution here. Alot of text but not much value or information.
You have got to be joling with the latest scam.
8 years in business you say, eventhough only thrown together sometime last week.
Helping thousands worldwide….
Since last week??? Give me a break!
I can only assume that you and your cronies think everyone else in the world are complete idiots not to see through your latest scam offering.
So long as it’s not blatant spam I’m not particularly fussed if associates use their websites on the form. I think it’s important to give people the opportunity to show what their opinion is representing when they leave a comment.
It actually does more harm then good. Seeing that someone is an associate weakens someone’s credibility in my eye and I’d rather know about it upfront.
Having said that keep it civil guys.
…so you want me to feel bad because you were wasting your time trying to prove a point to someone who’s not me?
Wow, that’s the mother of zings right there. I’m glad you accomplished your uh, mission.
I contacted the NSW Office of Fair Trading early this afternoon and the lady in information who I spoke to had no information as to Liberty League at all. Can’t find anything on their web site either.
Would really like to receive official confirmation that LLI has received DoFT classification as pyramid scheme.
Nothing in the mail today :(.
Either communication is shonky there or some people can’t use the inhouse computer system. The information given said the report was concluded on May 5th, 2009 and is on the company ‘Liberty League International’.
Strange myself and others had no problems getting the information but some are having problems. Maybe LLI’s lawyers got a hold of them?
is “life path ” the same deal anyone heard much about them
YES – although a bit more reputable than LLI – still a pyramid scam.
Why would anyone pay thousands of dollars when there are great motivational and training books, tapes, and CD’s/DVD’s you can buy for $20 or $30?
LLI is nothing more than an overpriced “money game” using conferences and materials as an excuse to attempt to make the program legal.
It is shams like LLI that give legitimate network marketing opportunities a bad name…
an absolute lie and very defamatory.I rang the department; there is nothing on their website ( their words ) and no they have no such finding; they can’t anyway; they need a court to confirm such a decision; you know nothing; they dont make decisions based on the complaints of a few people get real!; they have to go to the company and do an investigation. then get court orders; then they can put up decisions ; your nasty stupid website alwasy advertising Lifepath ( who use our system) shows your true colours. What a joke;
why more reputable? Says who? this site truly is awful; you make stuff up; like tony and jessica Rush buying Liberty League!! ha ha
Darling, you can barely spell your name let alone run a business.
You may want to find out how google adsense works.Adverts are contextual. The gold fish articles have ads for…….goldfish. OMG!!!
We actually enjoy LLI associates participation. It encourages ‘us’like-minded people to continue in our efforts to have your scheme brought under closer scrutiny by agencies such as the DAFT.
So thanks for the continued support in that area.
If you are confident your ‘scheme’ can withstand this scrutity you can relax, you have nothing to fear.
We are not forcing you to participate,I suspect that the motivation behind your participation is financially motivated.
True colours indeed…..
Ok, LLI has been declared a pyramid and illegal…
Now, what about POLARIS MEDIA GROUP??
Should all those involved in nailing LLI be more concerned with PMG considering they are the new-improved company?
I can hear the Polaris associates now:
“LLI is a scam you say? Well, that’s ok…we are not involved with them, we are with Polaris”.
@Rodney, regarding the Polaris “not involved” pitch, I do believe Tony Rush’s words pretty much sink that idea:
Polaris, as a “financial service” business providing “advice” to home “businesses”, still ends up being front and centre for ASIC, ACCC and DoFT.
Basically, even with the new brand, the action’s they’ve done open up whole new avenues for various governments to pursue them and throw them out of their respective countries.
This is in addition to the $5mil dollar lawsuit in the US and the existing work done by the ACCC and the DoFTs against LLI. ASIC and ACCC do take a poor view on businesses that phoenix in order to dodge litigation, so it’s even more motivation for them. By phoenixing a business, that business is, in effect, announcing to the various tax, business and trading agencies that protect consumers, that they’re illegitimate since they can’t take the heat on them (in their prior business form).
You all are a bunch of evil hyenas. LLI is not and has never been a pyramid nor a scheme. You are posting inaccurate and slanderous information about a company and people who are devoting their time and lives to helping others improve their own lives. Yes, there are people who’ve joined who failed, because they quit and because they didn’t follow the very simple instructions. There are always people who don’t take responsibility for anything, and are quick to point the finger at everyone else… and yell scam. Those who are succeeding you hear less from because they are enjoying their lives and “helping” others. You people here seem to be like I said earlier, ‘evil hate mongers that are all spending a lot of time trying to bring someone else (who is good) down’. You’re all sad.
One more thing I would like to leave here… KARMA. You here on this site should be very mindful of “what goes around, comes back around”. You think you have “the juicy facts”. You don’t, and you’re way off of the mark. Don’t you have a real job to do? You should also know, there is a full time staff of lawyers who are doing nothing else but going after slanderous felons (like you) and prosecuting them. They just won a huge settlement with Google for this…and there are more. Further, they will publish the names of these and any other losers who use these underhanded methods. So…KARMA guys. Quit publishing and spreading unfounded and untruthful information. You aren’t safe doing this on the internet anymore. The laws are now catching up to people like you.
LLI Is not a MLM. Some of you are throwing around terms very inaccurately. LLI is not only legal, it is a moral company and ethical. One should always question the morals of a person when they have to bash their competition to promote themselves. I hear you sell “Lifepath”… very interesting. Well, remember, the lawyers are coming for you. I’ve sent this web site to them… so you might want to start backpedaling about now. Do you understand the term “retraction” ? Finally, anyone who would come to your site or any of these “scam buster type” of sites should quickly recognize that you’re really here to steal and deface LLI and other successful companies, using their good names to promote your own ‘hidden ventures’ and agendas. This may be popular but isn’t ethical or possessing any real “integrity”. You should be ashamed, but then, people like you don’t have a moral compass for yourself or consciences. You are a sad reflection of the human race.
Man, this is the funniest shit ever.
These guys could be in jail and they’d still be preaching the legality and morality of LLI.
Don’t stop now Jz, I need my entertainment fix from you and others. You think you’re getting to us, but we’re lllllovin’ it. Keep it up! 🙂
That’s gold, classic LLI propaganda.
There’s a simple truth to goodness. Goodness, like truth, can stand critique. Lies can’t. Lies need more lies and spin to cover up that someone has lied.
You, as a Polaris/LLI evangelist, have to attack the person, instead of letting the company you represent stand and face the consequences of its own actions in regards to how it should trade in Australia as well as North and South Dakota (and Oklahoma, if I remember correctly with that $5mil lawsuit). Polaris/LLI at the end of day fails (pretty well self-imploding) when critiqued.
LLI have not won a huge settlement with Google. They won a settlement against a few domains that were like them in terms of cyberstuffing. Cyberstuffing isn’t Google, get it, punk?
Oh, that’s right. You run a home business. You have no idea on how to run a real bricks and mortar business with turnover of product, let alone management of staff and infrastructure. That’s why the only retort you, and the rest of the Polaris/LLI machina (including Tony “delete” Rush) can spout is that people should follow what their advisors say and ignore government and state business trading law.
You don’t even defend Polaris/LLI well, and that reflects on the people who have advised you in your upline and on the PMG forums/backend.
If you had a defence, you would not need to attack the person, instead explaining rationally and calmly how Polaris/LLI falls into line with the various Fair Trading provisions it has broken, along with the ASIC laws and Australian Advertising guidelines for products and services in the marketplace.
But you don’t, do you?
Jz – You say we have untruthful info, yet you’re telling us that we’re part of Lifepath? hahahaha
By the way, don’t bother trying to convince us that it’s legal… we don’t make the law 🙂
I have been involved with MLM for over 20 years.(not LIBERTY LEAGUE) , IF MY WEALTH IS BASED (THE SECRET OF ATTRACTION) THEN I DONT REALLY NEED ANYTHING MORE HEY?
OPINION…i have been told wat i do is illegal
FACT … IF IT WAS WOULDNT I BE ARRESTED?.
FACT … WOULDNT THE COMPANY NOT BE OPERATING?.
FACT … FAIR TRADING HAS NO LEGAL POWERS AT ALL
OPINION … THEY HAVE PEOPLE THAT HAVE OPINIONS.
So all the people that have written there opinion , congrats you have a mouth.FACT. if the company is still running then its not illegal.If you think otherwise then some simple education is needed.Finally MY OPINION based on 20 years of exp…those who carry on like children in this forum have all the answers in life and NO MONEY.
Hi there Mark.
People aren’t just arrested instantly. Background investigation and evidence needs to be collected first.
Liberty League ceased trading shortly after the pyramid scheme announcement was made. Didn’t you get that memo?
…unless they take someone to court over breaching the fair trading act.
For someone who’s not involved in Liberty League you seem pretty passionate about them.
Liberty League did not cease trading, they just renamed the company for their new vision. Same people, same address, same phone number, same secretary, same CEO, same jurisdiction. So, obviously they are not hiding nor shying away from the Australian market. People’s opinions and actual court decisions are 2 different thing entirely. Everyone is free to speculate, but that is all it is , speculation. The fact remains, all it takes is for a government regulatory agency to file some paperwork with some proof to substantiate the case to a court and the court can issue a cease and desist order on the operations of the company immediately until the matter is resolved. This is done everyday. So my question is, since this is not a difficult thing for a agency to do, why haven’t they done it? How long has it been? 8 years in the US and what 4 years in AUS? The only reason it has not been done because it cannot be done. There is nothing to substantiate this order.
Agencies can be slow , I agree, but 4+ years? We are not talking about a billion dollar operation that can have strong political ties.
So where can I sign up as a Liberty League associate…? oh that’s right I can’t because they ceased trading under that name.
The Office of Fair trading report was concluded in early May. The name Polaris Media Group was registered in August and the company launched in September.
Yes I’m sure this was all just massive co-incidence.
In the US there are currently lawsuits pending and in South Dakota the company is prohibited from trading.
LLI/Polaris has been trading for just over 2 years in Australia, but only in the last 6-8 months has it had substantial marketing publicity, primarily being advertised on television.
The NSW fair trading report was only concluded in May 2009, I’m not sure how long is was beforehand that they were made aware of Liberty League so I can’t comment on how long it took for them to investigate and come to a conclusion.
As for further action again, I have no idea how long it takes for an investigation to be concluded. Suffice to say at this point all I know is that associates are being questioned by them and as of yet they haven’t launched any action or come to a legal conclusion on Polaris Media.
After analysing the Polaris compensation plan I’ve outlined why I believe the company’s buisness model is still a pyramid scheme.
I’m still waiting for somebody to explain to me how it’s possible to be succesful in Polaris and rise up the ranks without constantly recruiting people and getting them to recruit people.
I dont think Oz is that educated in how companies are set up? maybe he/she is one of the children i spoke about.
i will repeat (TRY READING THIS TIME)
FACT FAIR TRADING HAS NO LEGAL POWERS
FACT HAVE NOT CEASED TRADING (THIS MEANS STILL RUNNING)
FACT WOULDNT THEY ALL BE ARRESTED (THIS MEANS HANDCUFFS)
GEEZ….HOW DO THESE PEOPLE EVEN GET JOBS HAHAHA!
Thankyou Vince- but I do not have said “balls”.
Serious note- I really hope he does as well.
Of course, if he is one of the “full boat”ers, it may take a while.
Losing that much money would be very scarey I imagine.
ah I noticed this as well….and felt a bit bad for him actually.
IN POlaris you are encouraged to “fake it until you make it” – my description.
Regrettably…I did the same…
My potential second training sale decided on Lifepath. He reported back saying he lost $20k with them.
I love how the head honchos of Polaris try to make out that Lifepath is the evil “enemy”.
What they’re basically saying is
“Don’t join Lifepath and lose $50k with them… come over to Polaris Media Group and lose $50k with us instead”
Mate I don’t know if you can read or not but I addressed all your points and all you’ve done is put your hands over your ears and shouted out the same statements again.
Polaris might have convinced you that if you say something enough times it’s true, but step away for a second and how about engage in the rebuttal presented to you. Way to perpetuate the ‘NANANANAN NOT LISTENING’ associate stereotype.
I wonder if Mark will be like iwonder and have the balls to come back to us after he realises he’s been brainwashed and lost heaps of $$$ with no return… I doubt it.
Can I also just say, that I have spoken to very prominent people high up in the Group, that have left and gone to Lifepath….and spoted the same stuff.
Conferences, etc etc…
I get now how Google ads works.
First thing I did when I was …man I don’t even know the right term without putting “brainwashed”….umm….”in” Polaris, was to look for ways to pretect that buzz I got from Polaris/LLI. and that meant seeing the ads on here and going “a-ha! you are from Lifepath!”.
Oz is not…
LLI/LIfepath/Polaris….same dangerous brainwashing crap different day in my view.
Speaking of which I noticed Colin has been pretty quiet after I called him out on his nonsense.
Maybe his lamborghini got bogged in his driveway?
Ah you got me.
The whole reason I’m moving to Taiwan is because prospects keep telling me ‘but..but I read on the internet that-‘ and I’m all like ‘what the hell are you doing on the internet?!
You can’t believe what that guy Oz has written. He’s just negative, he probably lives in a cardboard box, not like the six figure cardboard box I live in. Feel that, that’s 100% genuine crinkled PRISTINE Amazon rainforest.
Do you want to move up in life or not? I I told you to stay at home and just watch that dvd, that’s all you need to know. Don’t make me come over there and open a whole new can’o’motivation on you.’
I’m sick of dealing with this so I’m going to learn mandarin and start my own Polaris pyramid in Tapiei. Damn it feels good to get that off my chest.
LLI has been in AUS for at least 4 years, that is a fact.
In the legal, jurisdiction and regulatory sense a name change is not a entity change. If I owned an italian restaurant on 123 main st called “Antonios” and decided to rename this restuarant on 123 main st from “Antonios” to “Luccis”, would this change anything from the standpoint of legal, jurisdiction and regulatory matters? Yes some paperwork has to be filed but this paperwork does not change any of the above. So in ths example did “Antonios” cease trading.
All it takes is 7 days to shutdown an illegal business. Think about it
A basic google search reveals people in Australia coming across LLI — http://www.wahm.com/boards/Forum8/HTML/000666.html –search for the word Australia. That was 4 plus years ago. And if people where inquiring at that point that means that a whole lot more people where being marketed to. I can find more if you want.
Changing the comp plan is meaningless when we are talking about legality, regulatory agency actions and court actions. Changing your name and comp plan does not disguise, hinder or stop anything. My point is if they were trying to hide or evade or avoid something this would not be the way to do it.
And I disagree with the notion that it takes longer than a week or two to shutdown an illegal operation after being notified. Routinely in these sort of cases agencies come in and temporarily shutdown a operation first and then sort out the details later. If this company was running an illegal operation they would have been shutdown a long time ago. The longer it takes means there is nothing there to act on. You have so many agencies with the power to do it- tax authorities, consumer protection agencies, postal authorities etc…..
here we go only the THIRD TIME, change of business name doesnt mean OUT OF BUSINESS..
Telecom – Telstra?…….heloooo im with stupid
Maybe i should start a `how to read forum` haha I WIN AGAIN!
…who said anything about out of business? It was clearly stated that Liberty League ceased trading, and the did.
What kind of idiotic arguing is this?
HEY GUYS YOU DIDN’T SAY THIS, BUT IF YOU DID HAHAH YOU’RE WRONG AND I’M RIGHT.
Do you have any proof to back up this claim?
As far as I know, Rachel Oliver was one of the first (if not the first, I’m not sure if Berry was here when he signed her on or how long he’d been here) and was associate of the month in March 2008. In her associate of the month video (second video in this article) she states she’s been with Liberty League for 8 months, which puts her joining at July’ish 2007, or just over 2 years ago now.
Who was selling Liberty League in Australia in the two years preceding this?
Ah but see Liberty League didn’t just change their name, they changed their entire compensation plan. To use your example, I think there’d be a lot more then paper work to sort out if you adopted a wage model that was not per hour in addition to changing your restraunt name.
It takes a lot longer to gather evidence, get legal opinions and put together a concrete case. Especially when each employee is running their own ‘business’. As with Liberty League, the more people that get disgruntled and realise you can’t make it in the business without massively recruiting new people all the time and speak out about it, the easier it is for the ACCC and DoFT to conduct an investigation.
Some of the most vocal supporters of Liberty League/Polaris that have left feedback here have since left the company, you’d be naive to think this wasn’t happening outside of what is communicated on here.
Then there’s the ‘I can’t believe I fell for it, I’m never speaking about this again or ever telling anyone I was involved in it’ aspect some people have when leaving the company which buries information too.
I have a question for you. Seeing as I honestly could not figure the logic of this one out myself…
Why do advisors advise against using Beyind Freedom Sales to get your conference ticket?
Which every single one of people I knew’s advisor had told them?
Mine told me I should have one Beyond Freedom sale a week…..so….10,000AUD roughly for Liberty (old company and plan)…I should have it in 2 1/2 months anyways right?
And are you “full boat” yourself?
Do me a favour and dont just argue like I did when I was with them..
Please do. I note that the question went unanswered, specifically are Liberty League planning on going international.
With the internet you can market anything to anyone around the world, yet I don’t think anyone actually made anything with LLI up until just over two years ago.
Part of the problem here is the way Polaris is set up. Each associate runs their own business and is free to dubiously sell the business opportunity how they see fit. When collecting information regulators haven’t got a central point they have to analyse and see how the majority of associates are operating their businesses.
To do this they need to find out who’s sold what to who, how it was sold etc. These are the questions being asked the DoFT when associates have contacted them in the past. If they didn’t care why would they be collecting this information?
They have to go to court first and this isn’t going to happen until DoFT/ACCC have done their homework and put a case together.
Of course they might just choose to not do anything and let the company trade, but given nobody can provide information as to how to get into the upper ranks of Polaris without mass recruiting I’m pretty sure eventually they’ll crack down on it.
If you really want to have a clear and factual conversation about this company, I volunteer to answer any all questions about the company, comp plan, products and people for your benefit and the benefit of your readers. The good, the bad everything. I am all about the truth. If I do not know the answer I’ll get the answer. So ask away, lets wrap up this situation.
Anwser mine then above which was for Mark.
Thanks Josep. My main question is, is it possible to get to the upper levels of Polaris without mass recruiting associates and creating a pyramid of people under you?
First off, I want to say that if anything I write is not fully understood feel free to ask me.
The answer to your question is Yes it is possible, in my opinion, looking at the pmg comp plan and their vision on the product line, that a person can come into the company and reach top income earner status without recruiting a mass amount of people into the business side of the comp plan.
Now, no one is a fortune teller, but the opportunity is there for this to be the case. The founder’s vision is to create a situation that the number of retail customers and the amount of retail only volume will far outpace the number of distributors and distributor purchase volume. In network marketing and mlm this is the holy grail(which few or non have attained). That is their intention, will they reach it, who knows.
What is a top earner? Well looking at their income disclosure on their website it looks like $150,000 USD and above would be considered a top earner. So from a purely comp plan view point and using ultra conservative numbers as conversions, let’s take it for a whirl with pure retail sales only, no recruiting at all.(that means not marketing from the biz opp angle)
As per the comp plan, you make 20% more per sale on any product that is sold to a pure retail customer. That is a person that does not participate in the comp plan. So there is incentive built in for retail sales and an opportunity to offer 20% discounts to retail customers that become part of a “customer loyalty program” or preferred customer program that encourages purchases of an ever expanding base of products.
In the old comp plan and product line, with marketing to the “want to make money/start a business” crowd, the very conservative lifetime value of a “customer/participant” was $4000.00 USD. The calculation of these numbers can be the subject of another discussion, but that was the number from my experience.
So lets be very conservative say the lifetime value of pure retail customer (no distributors)in the new comp plan/product line is $2000.00 USD.(considering the addition of 20 product categories and more to come -understand this could be way too low- who knows- it has never been done) So to make the $150,000 USD you require to acquire 75 pure retail customers into your pipeline.(pipeline could begin at the $29.95 DVD level)
Now these 75 may come from any number of ways. Remember we are talking about the retail consumer market where there is a big opportunity for a natural word of mouth like what happened to the Secret DVD. You could do it old hat mlm style and do personal contact marketing to referral creation. So 30 personal contacts can lead to 75 referrals. With a 30 dollar entry product 75 is very doable. There are many other ways, which can be a subject of another conversation.
Here is the interesting part for me. If pmg can do their part and truly provide value and market to those 75 retail customers you put into the pipeline on your behalf via email, product teleconference, direct mail,etc.. a percentage of those will continue to buy different products in the product line.
From what I gather, the company’s goal is to continuously produce products that will be marketed on your behalf to your pipeline of retail customers in many different price points.
If a distributor can consistently acquire 75 retail customers into their pipeline per year I feel within 2 years they could realistically obtain an income level of 150k usd per year AS long as the company does their end of the bargain (create value in the products they produce and market it well to the existing retail only customer base).
So I feel there is a realistic chance for a person to come in and make a decent income just filling up the retail only pipeline.
Can you make more by building an organization? Yes, but you can also make less.How? Well if a person gets started in the business side and purchases a product because he wants to know what he will be marketing and be a part of, and then after 2 months quits the business, how likely will this person continue buying the other products? If a person buys the product for the product (not the bizopp), and the product provides the value its suppose to, how likely is this person to continue buying products?
We can debate product value, product pricing ,success percentages, customer acquisition costs, the viability of network marketing, etc.. as a subject of other conversations which i will be happy to participate in..
As for the product, I have seen the entry level 30 dollar DVD, was surprisingly impressed with it. I did not think I would be, but I was. So if they continue with the strategy they used with the DVD with their other products I feel they will have good chance of achieving the vision they are communicating.
In the old lli comp plan waiting to get the profits from your beyond freedom sales to purchase the conference tickets put you in a position of passing up sales of conference tickets to the people you sold beyond freedom to. So in your example, (not going into details of old comp plan but if you require clarification ask), you made 10 bf sales which took you 2 1/2 months and then you purchased a conference ticket. Well, this is what would happen, Out of those 10 bf sales 3 of them would of purchased the 2nd level product and 1 would have purchased 3rd level product before you would had “qualified” at the 2nd and 3rd level products to collect profit on those, therefore they would purchased these products form your adviser/advisers who were qualified at those product levels. These are real numbers, remember these 10 people are already committed to do this. So in this scenario you would pass up 23k and all the possible 2nd and 3rd level product sales they would bring in before they qualified at these levels and so on levels deep. So they advised people to do this because that is how the comp plan worked at the time. So if you where planning on doing it any way and had the means to do it, it was to your advantage to get them sooner rather than later. This setup a sense of urgency using the fear of loss as a driver to move people to action. It worked but I feel people in that pay plan could of made 10x more with out it.
With the new comp plan with PMG, this is now irrelevant. When you purchased or sell the product you are qualified. The most you can pass up is the profit of one sale to be activated to receive wholesale bonuses on that product. You can still make 20% on retail sales without activating.
Thanks for your post.
I know all about the passing up of sales etc.
My question is one more of morals.
Do you think it is morally responsible to advise someone to buy all three products, when they are finacially struggling/desperate, for the sake of them “missing out” on passed up profits?
Which I might add, I have not seen from anyone that I know who has joined in the last 9 months or so. Liberty League or Polaris.
I have another question for you:
Why did Brent Payne leave?
(And I already know the answer, I would just like to hear what you know).
Oz- You did tell me how to quote on here from someone’s post- can you please remind me?
As for Brent leaving, I do not know a definitive answer on that because I never really asked. I know the speculation out there which I will not repeat unless I know it to be true. But apparently they had a parting of ways big enough that Brent would “cash out” and move on.
In my opinion an adviser should present the compensation plan and how to best utilize it to person’s advantage and the person should make their own decision on what is best for them and their family. So morally I do not see a dilemma in a person getting the information and then making a decision for them selves.
If an adviser is trying to manipulate a person to buy all 3 products against a person’s will then I would take offense to that. That sort of strategy does not make money in my experience.
Either way, a compensation plan usually dictates people’s behavior in a network marketing company. The compensation plan should always reward the behavior you want in your company. The old comp plan definitely rewarded some behavior that I feel was detrimental.
Sorry the plugin author released an update yesterday so I updated the quote plugin and after it didn’t break anything left it. Seems it moved the quote text up near the time a comment was posted which is kinda out of the way.
Doesn’t seem to be any way to change it back so I’ve rolled back the plugin and it should look how it used to.
Thankyou for taking the time to respond concisely Josep, here’s my problems with what you’ve written.
Is this ever going to be achievable though? The retail products Polaris offer are not consumables thus there’s 0 chance of a repeat customer. Unless somebody watches their dvd so many times that it shatters or they lose their copy you won’t get any repeat business and from what I understand this is where you should be aiming to make money.
20% more then what? If you are higher up in Polaris (only obtainable by recruiting associates) then you get a 40% (20% retail + 20% wholesale bonus)? The wholesale bonus is a floating percentage based on the number of sales you or your team (again with the recruiting) makes but if you max it, that’s 40% as opposed to the blanket 20% discount from a straight retail customer perspective.
With all due respect lets be realistic here. The Secret DVD didn’t cost thousands of dollars and I’m sure that if it did, it wouldn’t have sold as much as it did (I assume it sold a lot as it’s mentioned all the time by Polaris associates but I haven’t looked into it).
Under the Liberty League model it’s no secret that the big earners were making money from the conferences, not Beyond Freedom. At 75 customers annually you’re looking at acquiring 6 new customers a month. With let’s say 100 associates that’s 600 new retail customers a month or 7200 a year.
With 1000 associates all competing for the same customerbase this number balloons out to a staggering 72,000 new customers required a year.
There’s only a finite population in Australia and after making money on ludicrous conference commissions from fellow associate purchases I’m having a hard time believing all of a sudden Polaris associates are going to find masses of customers who are willing to sign up purely on a retail level for products that now cost more overall, when most people struggled for one or two beyond freedom sale a month at a lower price.
What, do you mean as a ongoing subscription based product line? I’ve only been hearing there is a set range of 22 (or 23 can’t remember now) products to be released?
Yes you also can make less but realistically conference sales are worth much more then any of the retail products and they are repeat consumables. If you’re trying to make money why would you waste time with smalltime retail sales when 1-2 conference sales easily matches the commission for a lot less work?
This is one of my biggest problems with the company (as again you’re forced to recruit to make money) and I believe we’re just going to see associates sliding into old habits marketing the conferences (from what I’ve heard nothing much has changed on conference calls, it’s just ‘buy the conferences now!’ still).
I think you might be from the US (given the usual time you seem to be active on the site) and I think one thing to understand is that we here have a much smaller population. There’s what, 300+ mill people in the US? We just cracked 24 million and then that’s mostly spread out over a small amount of capital cities.
Living in Australia my primary focus has been analysing Polaris/Liberty League in an Australian marketplace and whether Polaris release 30 retail products or 100, I just don’t see how with our limited population this is going to be even remotely profitable (as in sole income generating) for the majority of people who sign up.
Then there’s my issue with the fact that population numbers is the limiting factor in their business model and the link with a pyramid base…
Josep…this is what my advisor did.
And what new signups are encouraged to do.
Tell me: is advising to use someone else’s credit card bad in your view?
I don’t think we need Josep to tell us how stupid an idea that is.
True…but would like to see his spin on it, and perhaps if he listens and wakes up or not.
Of course, the problem is, if he is one of the advisors at the top ripping off people, he won’t want to “wake up” because that will be the end of his cash cow.
ps: As to my statement, I will leave it up to the public to decide whether they think this happened or not.
I know the answer to that.
1- PMG will continue to produce different products for your retail customer to consume. For example a curriculum geared to health, or a program geared to financial development. So it is not the intention of the company from my viewpoint of people buying the physical courses over and over again, but to produce new products for them to consume. Now the conferences and live events will be a repeat purchase consumable.
2- If you look at the compensation plan, the product prices for retail only customer (person not joining the business) is different than the prices for a person who is a distributor. That different is 20%. Everyone in the compensation plan makes the 20% retail profit to retail customers. The 20 -40% additional wholesale bonus is based on how much volume you produce not on the number of people you recruit to do the business. So the majority of the comp plan has nothing to do with the number of people you recruit to do the business. Now, there is compensation based on how much volume (product sale volume) your organization produces. So the bigger your sales organization the more volume you will override.
Now this volume can come from the purchases of people joining the business. BUt in my opinion the real big money will come from the retail customer base that one can establish.
3- The intention of pmg from my understanding is to have consistent base of distributors with an ever expanding base of retail customers. I feel the 5 to 10 million dollars per year income will be achieved with a large retail base of customers. It may sound unrealistic to you, but your example of the recruiting progression to me is unrealistic. Amway, a company around for 40 plus years has yet to see this recruiting progression. The classic pyramid example of recruiting others to recruit others to some large number never really comes to fruition, its a myth.
4- Subscription based products, one time buy products dealing with health, products dealing with wealth/investment, etc…These are just a few of the opportunities available to pmg . There are hundreds of other markets they can produce a product for. Again the goal is create a base of customers and sell to them over and over again.
5- I feel you do not require to recruit business partners to make money in pmg. You do require to acquire customers to make money in pmg. Again the largest retail customer base wins the prize. The largest business partner base with out the retail base will make money but the not the most money and they will never have a consistent income with the current pmg comp plan. Now having a solid base of business partners and a larger retail customer base will return the most leveraged money and the most leveraged consistent income .
How people will choose to run their enterprise? I do not know
If a person asks for ideas on options they may have, directing them to do their own research on using legitamate funding sources to fund their business, yes. As 99% perecent of all business ventures are funded with “other people money”- whether from a bank, a loan from a relative, e tc….
Now, to use someone elses credit card, I would not consider that an advantageous funding source.
The fact is that all entrepreneurs fund their ventures with a loan of some kind and they require to do their research like every entrepreneur does. If they are not willing to do the research and take responsibility for their own decisions. they should not endeavor to be an entrepreneur. That’s my opinion.
That is the most amazing exapmle of sidestepping a legitimate question I have seen for a while.
(Since I was in Polaris funnily enough).
To comment on an advisor telling …er…”someone” …to use someone else’s credit card without their PERMISSION mind you, is in my view extremely dodgey and shows a flaw and lack of integrity in the “leaders” in a business.
In my view, Liberty League International?Polaris is an extremely flawed organisation, albeit an extremely clever one in regard to parting people with their money (or borrowed etc).
The contradictions are vast.
eg: Stating that it is am organisation with integrity, yet urging associates to be, and this is in the words of my advisor, be “good storytellers”. I personally know of an associate stating on the internet etc that they “love the income and the lifestyle” …but have not made a cent. How do I know this? Because I was their ONE training sale…funnily enough, cash was to their advisor.
They have been in this “business” since the start of 2009 and are now heavily in debt.
I know of someone who has lost their home…of someone who left their job only to now have a massive debt and now his old workplace will not take him back.
I also know of people who have invested approx 60 grand into this, and have not made a sale.
The ONLY “success stories” I have seen are from those at the top of the pyramid. You know, the ones who are or were on the leaderboard week in week out. And to have the same people on the leaderboard week in week out despite being in 156 (?) countries?
The business is a very clever scam unfortunately, that does prey on people who are desperate, who are in debt, who are depressed.
Polaris is a new name, run by the same dishonest people, and no matter what spin you out on it, will always be.
Well said iwonder. I have recommended Steve Salerno’s book SHAM previously and will again. It is a fascinating critique and exposure of the whole self help industry. http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/Sham/
Just wanted clear up a misunderstanding of your previous question.
I did not understand your question to be if one where to use someone elses credit card without permission. Because I would be totally against that. I understood the question to mean that someone would let another person use their credit card with permission, which I also disagree with.
So I am not dodging or side stepping your question, I just misunderstood it.
And I have no need to spin anything, I just shared my opinion on the matter. If you have any other questions I’ll be happy answer them.
I’ll believe this when I see it, has it been announced anywhere yet? As far as I know (and admittedly I haven’t been keeping up I’ve been rushed off my feet lately) Polaris have only announced that the tailend of Beyond Freedom Evolution won’t be released till later this year/2010.
Have they announced even the first of what these ongoing consumable courses will be?
Let’s face it, the compensation of the retail products is nothing compared the conference compensation + pool revenue + residual revenue. The top end of the compensation dwarfs the entry levels interms of compensation and the only way to get to these levels is to recruit other associates.
Infact the only time you don’t benefit from recruiting other assoicates is the first two levels. Four out the six associate levels (from advisor onwards) require you to recruit so to say the majority of the comp plan has nothing to do with recruiting is a bit misleading.
We’re going to have to disagree on this one. Beyond Freedom didn’t make up the bulk of profit before for the big earners and I don’t see how this will change under Polaris. An updated income disclosure (not including inflated LLI numbers) will certainly be interesting if Poalris release one in the next 12 months.
Whilst I’m sure this is the intention of the EMC and other leaders, if solely because it’s the most profitable for them, I think their nuts i they believe people are just going to be content with their small peanuts retail sales and do not actively try to recruit others so they themselves can advance up the compensation plan.
Well currently the goal doesn’t match up to reality. As mentioned earlier, I’ll consider it if and when Polaris announce new products and release them with some regularity.
What’s your definition of ‘make money’? Someone who invests $50,000 into the business and makes $1,000 back still makes money.
Given you cannot progress past the first two levels of the compensation plan without recruiting… you clearly need to recruit to make money – and everyone who joins is goin to want to make as much money as possible.
If you’re constantly recruiting new associates, they all have to start somewhere (the bottom of your pyramid) and they have to start somewhere. By constantly recruiting new associates you guarantee youself a stake in the retail sales because new associates cannot sell the upper end products until they’ve sold the retail products and activated themselves.
At this point in the discussion, and you’re free not to answer if you chose to I’d like to ask where you stand in the company? You don’t sound like someone who just joined yesterday and seem to be relatively knowledgable on the finer details of the company and the theory behind it.
I’m guessing relatively high up (associate with a fair few people under you or possibly EMC?)
I only ask as I’ve made it clear I have no association with Polaris (or any of their competitors or the personal development industry itself) and I’m kind of curious as to where other people are coming from when they present their views.
I’ve always found this statistic when it’s quoted or advertised on a Polaris associate’s website amusing. I’d imagine they just count out the countries that don’t have the internet, or are in Africa and state the remainder as countries Polaris operate in.
You know… being a ‘global internet company’ and all.
I am a person that is very knowledgeable of the company and comp plan from experience. I am also not married to the company and subject to agreements and such. So to keep the conversation freely flowing with the good the bad and the ugly that is all I am going to say on that matter.
As for the comp plan based on recruiting others. The old lli pay plan payed out 62% with pure direct sales compensation, no residuals. The new pmg comp plan pays out less than 62% but lets take 62% as a high estimate payed out on the “non retail price of the product”. So 40% in direct sales compensation (requires no sales organization building) and 22% percent in residual compensation (require sales organization building).
Now that is 65% percent of the compensation plan being paid through the direct sales compensation portion which requires no organization building. Plus the 20% retail compensation which is paid again without any organization building.
So the majority of the compensation plan is directed toward non organization building endeavors. Again the total payout in pmg is less than 62% but I do not know the exact number yet.
To tap in the the remainder of the compensation (the 22% in my example) you must build an organization, not a very large one, but you must build one. The top position requires 9 activated associates and certain volume requirements. Not a ridiculous requirement. And to qualify for the bonus pools which by the way is part of the 22% residual portion of the payout, you must be able build an organization with multiple people having a decent amount of success (100k-250k+).
Now, if your opinion is that no one in the retail market will buy the higher level products, well that is another issue. I feel there is a retail market for the high end products, the trick in my opinion is marketing them well to the right market.
Will this plan work, who knows, but I commend the effort to do something no one has done before.
Attempting to convince people that there is a good end to pick up a turd with has been done to death and the fact remains that you can’t polish a turd – but desperate people will believe that you can if you disguise the smell with something different each time so that they do not recognise it until it’s too late and by then they have turd all over their hands.
Nah, I’m pretty sure it’s been done before.
If you’re not an associate (married to the company), not subject to their (compliance) agreements and are very knowledgeable on the comp plan based on experience the only thing I can think of is you belong to Polaris legal.
Not sure why what your involvement in Polaris needs to be shrouded in secrecy but anyway.
True, but under the old plan you had access to a 62% payout across the entire product range without recruiting. Under Polaris you cannot qualify to make the $$$ on conference sales unless you recruit.
Sure you can stick with retail but nobody is going to be making ‘six figure incomes’ on small potatoes dvd sales. It’s been over a month now… did anyone have a gargantuan sales month last month?
From a percentage standpoint yes, from an actual dollar amount no. One conference with the associate level bonuses + 22% is equal to how many dvd sales and hours wasted on the phone?
People are in Polaris to make money remember so this is what they care about, and unfortunately they need to recruit to get there.
If 100 associates want to make serious money they need to recruit 900 people. If those 900 people want to get anywhere they have to recruit 8100 people. That’s just 2 levels of residual. Sure you can say but not everyone will make it to the top but let’s not kid around, that’s the goal right?
8100 do the numbers sound ridiculous yet?
Really? What target demographic has tens of thousands of dollars a year to spend on personal development motivational conferences? Who exactly are these people??
After one month of it being a ‘new’ product line we should have some idea no? Be interesting to see what the sales figures are for new clients, after the initial ‘everyone in the company bought products so that’s why we sold thousands of copies of know for yourself in the first few days’ nonsense that was touted.
thought i would look touch base again ( as i have real things to do in life ) unlike uuuum Soap Box by the looks.
OH LOOK WHAT I FOUND , OH YES LIBERTY LEAGUE OR WATEVER THERE CALLED ARE STILL DOING BUSINESS . FACT OR MYTH HAHA….CARRY on then , i might come back in few weeks , to see if u come with anything based on facts…….Mark 20 years exp MLM and CHQS
1- No secrecy here, I have been associated with the company for many years and have observing them closely but not “married” to them, meaning not on EMC.
2- I do not see any where in the compensation plan that requires recruiting to make money on the conference sales. You are mistaken. A person can come in today and sell a conference ticket and make money on the retail and the wholesale bonus side. There is no recruiting requirement to qualify to make money on the conferences. That is very clear in the compensation plan.
Example, if I came into pmg today and bought my conference ticket this would activate me and if I sold a conference ticket tomorrow I will make 20% retail (if a retail sale) plus 40% of the wholesale/preferred customer price immediately. So where does the recruiting come in?
3- There is a retail opportunity for all products at all price points in the comp plan with out recruiting.
4- What demographic for the retail of conferences? Well there are at least 9 million millionaires in the world. There 10s of millions of small business owners in the world.
There are more markets but these 2 are usually the markets that spend 10s of thousands of dollars on personal and leadership development.
There are 10s of millions of people who own more than 2 cars.
This means that there millions of people who can afford 10s of thousands to spend on stuff.
5- The market is there, the challenge is the marketing. It’s all about the creativity and the power of marketing. Did people 20 years ago think that one day people would pay 1000x times more money for water in a bottle, something that they could get virtually for free? Its all marketing….. People just got to figure it out. Now if you want to discuss the quality of the products, that’s another discussion but the market is there.
In my opinion the quality of the product is there if they follow the same strategy they have with the dvd.
I’ll concede this mistake as I missed it, good explanation.
Fair enough, I guess we’ll have to see how it pans out for them. I still think they aren’t going to have much luck selling the high ticket items at a retail level but we won’t know till some time passes.
Out of curiosity did you attend the recent Puerto Rico event, and if so were the majority of attendees still associates + prospects or did retail customers make a show?
Thanks for providing a decent argument and contributing to the discussion. Usually the calibre of argument for Polaris mirrors Mark’s comments above, your contribution makes for a refreshing change.
Alan Bond is still indirectly in business…. As is Glenn Wheatley. Both convicted criminals that still have major business interests.
Being “still in business” means sweet f**k all.
Its Offical THERE STILL IN BUSINEES…..oh hang on I thought it was illegal? HUH im confused ….someones lying ?
Oh my Goodness Mark…. are you serious?
There are processes to be followed. A nutless monkey would understand that… They definately are being followed, so hopefully not too many more people will be scammed.
I fully understand where you are coming from for the following reasons:
a- You are new-ish to the company, have spent a shitload, and have yet to see any money come your way. The prospect and embarassment of the financial losses from being involved in such a scam terrify you.
b- you are one of the very few up high in the Pyramid Scheme, and have lived off other people’s weaknesses, and haven’t had to work for a while. Now the reality of finding a job is rearing its head, and that terrifies you. Not to mention the legal action if you are sued in a class action lawsuit similar to the one in the USA. Having to give the cash back to all of the people whose lives you have affected so negatively wouldn’t be too nice…
Oh- and the only people lying (in reference to your post above) are the top of the Pyramid Scheme “advisors” who say they are not linked to Scientology and their own agendas.
People are leaving the company. More and more every day.
Complaints are being made to the ACCC.
DoFT have decalred LLI a Pyramid Scheme. Though Polaris is a new name, I personally would not trust an organisation that was in the past a Pyramid Scheme.
You may be sucked in by the PMG hype at the moment as I was.
Unfortunately for most it doesn’t last long.
Nearly everyday I speak to someone who has lost thousands to this business. These people now have problems with anxiety and depression as well as being debt.
Some of these people are professionals who wanted a change of lifestyle but unfortunately many are people who thought this business could change their lives for ever.
No one has seen the new Beyond Freedom Evolution – it is now proven that a least one (probably more)of the authors is a Scientologist – this is dangerous to those who are unaware of what they are been taught.
The reason most of us write in this column is to hopefully save others from making the same mistake.
RE its Offical THERE STILL IN BUSINEES…..oh hang on I thought it was illegal? HUH im confused ….someones lying ?
What is this forum about ?….listen to yourselves ….
FACT Still in business……der
I have come to the conclusion this forum is run by poor people that have never made it !….and then like to justify why they didnt make by , making up stuff about other companies….i pity you broke minded people …see ya in couple weeks see if LL is still in business
Oh in ref to I WONDER…………..yep keep wondering
How can I visit this delusional world where Liberty League is still in business?
Do you do group packages?
Hi All who have been scammed and thank you to all your comments. Hopefully we will stop a few more people wasting their time and money.
They still seem to be operating and I was just wondering if anyone has managed to get a refund or know of anyone that has. Surely the Office of Fair trading can act on this and help those that have lost money???
Would greatly appreciate any help/ comments