Did Zeek Rewards management know about the SEC?
All our critics (are) self-appointed with no standing in the professional community (and are) behaving unprofessionally by acting on false information.
-Gregory Caldwell, “Acting” COO of Zeek Rewards on August 4th, 2012
Whilst much is still currently unclear regarding the specifics of Zeek Rewards CEO Paul Burks’ dealings with the SEC in the lead up to Zeek being shut down, bits and pieces are finally (albeit slowly) starting to trickle out into the public sphere.
With many of Zeek Reward’s executive management holding affiliate accounts to participate in the company’s Ponzi scheme, one of the most pressing queries has been the question of how aware of the SEC investigation were Zeek Rewards corporate executives, if at all.
Knowing full-well that Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme and being aware of the SEC investigation and a resulting shutdown is vastly important, as such knowledge (and the suppression of it) put Zeek’s management in a conflictingly advantageous position as investors.
Whilst regular affiliates continued to re-invest the bulk of their daily ROIs and encourage new investors to come on board, continuing on unawares right until the precise moment Zeek Rewards was shut down, Zeek’s executive management, aware of the SEC situation and what was occurring, could have easily been quietly cashing out as much as possible from their personal affiliate accounts.
Indeed, if you look at the actions of some of Zeek Rewards’ more prominent executive management in the last few months of Zeek Rewards, a distinct pattern emerges.
Former COO Dawn Wright-Olivares all but vanished from the public eye after informing affiliates Zeek Rewards would not be able to pay them unless they “deposited more money” into Zeek’s e-wallet accounts (June 26th).
A week later Zeek Rewards Sales Director Darryle Douglas disappeared off the face of the planet for “personal matters” on July 30th. Such “personal matters” were never elaborated on by the company and following the official announcement, Douglas was never publicly heard from again.
Although not Zeek Rewards corporate, it’s worth noting that around the same time as Wright-Olivares’ and Douglas’ departures into obscurity, Keith Laggos, a paid consultant of Zeek Rewards, claimed that the FTC were going to shut down Zeek Rewards. He also began to promote Lyoness to his Zeek Rewards affiliate downline as a ‘Plan B’.
For his efforts, Laggos was terminated as a paid Zeek Rewards consultant on or around July 24th. To date it remains unclear whether or not Laggos also lost his “$40,000 a month” Zeek Rewards affiliate account.
Three of Zeek Rewards’ previously prominent top public figures went underground within the space of a month. And just under three weeks later, the SEC shut the company down for being a Ponzi scheme.
Hindsight analysis would indicate the witnessing of a typical Ponzi scheme pre-planned exit strategy. With everyone involved appearing to have lawyered up and refuse to make any public statements though, it appears we’re going to have to wait to get any further clarification on the matter.
In the meantime, a recently leaked email from Greg Caldwell certainly suggests that Zeek’s executive management had at least some idea of what was happening.
The email exchange in question occurred between Zeek Rewards COO Gregory Caldwell and Diamond Zeek Rewards affiliate ‘Duane DeFrees’.
On August 17th Zeek Rewards pulled the plug on their Ponzi scheme and on the 18th it was revealed that the SEC had shut them down.
Amidst these events, over a million Zeek Rewards affiliates scrambled to make sense of what was going on. Naturally many were anxious about the future of the daily ROI payments they’d been enjoying from Zeek and sought information from anyone within the company who would speak to them.
One such affiliate, Duane Defrees, reached out to Greg Caldwell (photo right) through his White Hat Solutions ‘web enquiry’ form:
Did you or did you not work to make sure Zeek was not a Ponzi scheme? I do not like to think I was so dupped and caused others to be taken in?
Can you give us any ray of hope here to pass on to our many affliates who tursted you and your imput into Zeek Rewards. Along with many others we still have Faith in first of all God and also in the counsel that seemed to be given by all in this matter.
Thank you for your answer.
I’m not sure exactly when DuFrees initial email was sent, however Caldwell (photo right) wrote back a lengthy reply on August 19th.
In it, Caldwell claims he ‘was not allowed to participate in meetings with the SEC or the attorneys‘. What attorneys Caldwell is referring to is unclear (Paul Burks personal attorneys or Zeek Rewards’ own?), however the key piece of information Caldwell reveals is that he was aware of a dialogue existing between the SEC and Zeek Rewards.
Date wise there’s no indication as to when the SEC began their investigation into Zeek Rewards, with Caldwell only confirming that Zeek Rewards ‘was ultimately shut down but not before the SEC began their investigation into Rex Venture Group‘.
One indication as to the length of the investigation was revealed yesterday by Patrick Pretty, who, through court documents filed by CEO Paul Burks’ attorney, learnt that
Paul R. Burks, the operator of Zeek Rewards, was cooperating with the SEC.
That “period of cooperation” resulted in the production of “hundreds of thousands of documents, including financial records, e-mails, and all manner of electronic files,” according to the filing by Noell P. Tin, an attorney for Burks.
“Hundreds of thousands of documents” passed between Zeek Rewards and the SEC, no doubt forming the basis of their analysis and court filings against the company. Again, when the SEC began investigating Zeek Rewards is unclear but the scope of the investigation is what’s relevant to analysis of whether Zeek’s corporate management knew of it.
Largely fuelled by nonsensical lawsuits filed by Zeek Rewards affiliates claiming the SEC had no idea about Zeek Rewards when they filed their complaint and Troy Dooly’s updates on MLM Helpdesk, it’s being heavily pushed that Paul Burks acted alone in his dealings with the SEC – with this ultimately resulting in a closed-door deal involving a $4 million fine and surrendering of Rex Venture Group (Zeek Rewards’ parent company) to the SEC.
Whilst the former might very well be true (and I’ll give Caldwell and the rest of Zeek Rewards’ management the benefit of the doubt on it), does anybody honestly believe hundreds of thousands of documents were exchanged between Zeek Rewards and the SEC with executive management left completely unaware?
I have no idea if Greg Caldwell had a Zeek Rewards affiliate account but the timing of Dawn Wright-Olivares and Darryle Douglas’ disappearances and Keith Laggos suddenly pushing ‘Plan B’ onto his Zeek downline certainly paint the picture of rats (metaphorically speaking of course) deserting a sinking ship.
Why would they do that unless they’d sniffed something was up? The finer details might have been kept from them but “Ponzi scheme + SEC investigation + requests for hundreds of thousands of Zeek Rewards documents” is an equation anyone even remotely familiar with Zeek should be able to work out. Let alone those running and who were directly involved in the day to day running and management of the scheme.
In his defense, Caldwell claims that it was the “idiots” and “morons” in the Zeek Rewards affiliate pool that not only incited the SEC to investigate Zeek Rewards, but also led to the closure of the company.
I never (got) involved with the compensation plan or the finances of the company. That job was left to the new CFO (also an innocent bystander; there less than a month) and the much respected outside CPA firm.
The compensation plan had been reviewed by no less than six or seven attorneys before I got there. Not one blessed it as perfect nor could they, given the unique nature of the program.
Most of the changes that were suggested were initiated, including those by an SEC attorney. Still other changes were underway and not yet announced.
That said, I know that Paul Burks would have done everything in his power to tweak it or adjust it to conform to any known laws if he had been allowed.
There are a lot of stunned people, including myself and some of the attorneys, that the SEC or anyone would suggest this is a Ponzi scheme. That fact was not litigated and I don’t believe can ever be proven.
More important (sic), had I ever thought the company was doing something illegal, I wouldn’t have been there.
Whether it’s post Ponzi-scheme damage control or sheer ignorance on the behalf of someone who claims to have ‘30 years experience as a licensed private investigator‘ and founder of a company that ‘provides assistance in corporate investigations, security, risk management and compliance assessment‘, I have no idea how Caldwell can claim to be “stunned” that the SEC, upon examination of hundreds of thousands of Zeek Rewards documents, came to the conclusion Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme.
Caldwell attempts to play down his role as COO in the immediate period before Zeek Rewards was shut down, claiming that he
volunteered to take the operational roll as “acting COO” on a very temporary basis and had only held that for less than a month.
I never “got promoted” to COO, which would imply I became an employee of the company.
To take Caldwell at face value here is to play into the linguistic pseudo-compliance that has plagued Zeek Rewards ever since he was brought onboard as a paid compliance consultant.
In an utterly bizarre and completely destructive reflection of the MLM industry’s open willingness to embrace the absurdity of believing that the mere renaming of banning of terminology is what constitutes legal compliance, to deliberate on whether or not Caldwell was indeed Zeek Rewards’ COO is to be sidetracked.
Zeek Rewards put out a press release on July 30th, declaring publicly that
Greg Caldwell has accepted the role of acting COO for RVG where we are confident he brings all of the skills, experience and strengths required to take the RVG operation to the next level.
In accepting this role, it begs utter disbelief that Caldwell, an investigator with 30 years experience, would have blindly signed on directly under Paul Burks as Chief Operating Officer, “acting” or otherwise.
More importantly, it also begs the question as to what authority Greg Caldwell made the very public statement that all Zeek Rewards’ critics were unprofessionally spreading false information with. The statement in and of itself lends to the fact that Caldwell himself would have verified financial information proving Zeek Rewards wasn’t a Ponzi scheme before making such a statement.
One would certainly not expect anything less from someone at the helm of a field of investigators working for a firm that specialises in corporate investigations, security, risk management and compliance assessment. Yet that’s precisely what Caldwell is expecting everyone to swallow.
And just how easy would it have been for Caldwell to conduct the most basic of due diligence on a company he “accepted” an executive management position at?
“How much of the money we take in daily is from affiliates, and how much of this money is then paid out each day to affiliates?”
Paul Burks repeatedly deflected answering this question citing “proprietary information”, but in order to facilitate the running of the business one would certainly imagine this information would be made known upon request to those residing in the upper echelons of the scheme.
To suggest that this thought never crossed Caldwell’s mind, nor was the question raised between Caldwell and Burks prior to Caldwell getting on board and accepting his COO position, leaves me at a complete loss.
Well, at least it did until I read Caldwell’s offered explanation to DeFrees on why the SEC shut Zeek Rewards down:
One of my mantras, when talking to company CEOs is it doesn’t matter if the company has the best compliance department in the world or the most stringent Policies and Procedures, if you don’t know what the field is saying.
In other words, are they using the approved message the company puts out, or have they reinvented the wheel because they think they are smarter and know better than the company (or its attorneys)?
(Caldwell then includes an example of a Zeek Rewards affiliate using investment terminology)
As you can clearly see, this idiot, like so many others, was representing it as an investment.
The entire SEC investigation began because of another moron’s website in which he listed a bunch of companies where people could earn daily “interest” on their “investments”.
This coming week, a Case Management program was ready to be installed so the hundreds of compliance cases per day could be better tracked.
The company spent upwards or $40K on that program alone. Doesn’t much suggest no one cared or was promoting a Ponzi scheme, does it?
I know that Paul Burks would have done everything in his power to tweak it or adjust it to conform to any known laws if he had been allowed.
The company had numerous people “scrubbing” the Internet every day and getting Affiliate websites and blogs taken down for those who were portraying the opportunity for something other than what it was.
As fast as they were taken down, new ones sprung up, all talking about “investments” and compounding interest on the investments.
Thus when ANY regulatory body gets a whiff of a company, the first thing they do is search the internet. Guess what they found?
And, now you see how fast affiliates can get a company taken down by misrepresenting the opportunity.
As per Greg Caldwell, the SEC didn’t shut Zeek Rewards down because Paul Burks sat in his office inventing the daily ROI percentage paid out to affiliates, or that mechanically Zeek Rewards operated like an investment scheme with 90% of the money coming into Zeek Rewards being invested affiliate money, and 98% being paid out in daily ROIs also being invested affiliate money.
No, Zeek Rewards was shut down because “idiots” and “morons” were running around the internet referring to the investment opportunity as well, an investment.
And Caldwell wasn’t an employee of Zeek Rewards because, you see, he “accepted” the position of COO as opposed to having been promoted as an existing employee of the company.
This is the idiotic linguistic psuedo-compliance battle that has raged between Zeek Rewards affiliates and its critics on BehindMLM over tens of articles and now thousands of comments.
Fuelled by ringleaders like Caldwell enforcing the “a Ponzi scheme is not a Ponzi scheme if nobody refers to it as such” angle, ultimately and as repeatedly predicted what you call your Ponzi scheme doesn’t matter. What matters is whether or not you are indeed running a Ponzi scheme.
And that, Paul Burks through Zeek Rewards was.
Just like we were supposed to believe that Zeek Rewards wasn’t a Ponzi investment scheme because affiliates weren’t able to use investment terminology, so too are we now expected to believe the Caldwell and the rest of Zeek Rewards management had no idea what was going down between Burks and the SEC.
Hundreds of thousands of documents passed between the two entities, Caldwell claims he wasn’t allowed to sit in on SEC meetings and one by one, executive management slipped off quietly into the abyss.
Believe me when I say it is with no pleasure that I point out the fallacies of the multitude of MLM “authority figures” Zeek Rewards had on their payroll. Looking forward I can only hope that in documenting the catastrophic engulfment of stupidity that has gripped the throats of such a large cross-section of the MLM industry over the last two years, that the industry of linguistic compliance and wordsmithing is truly an era left behind us.
No matter who you hire, no matter what experts you get to sign off on your compensation plan and business model and no matter what your members refer to your business as, at the end of the day all that matters is the mathematical mechanics of your business. Or in layman’s terms, the flow of money.
Practically speaking in the truest sense of the words Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme, with the company and its money flow having been thoroughly discussed and analysed long before the SEC got involved and shut them down.
I personally hope it’s a long time before I find myself having to enter into discussions with people to dismiss the idea that what you refer to something defines it, rather than what it is itself.
And the sooner the Greg Caldwells, the Keith Laggos’ and all the MLM attorneys, consultants and trainers who willingly participated in this nonsense and signed off on it (you know who you are) acknowledge and accept this, the better for the MLM industry at large.
Footnote: The email exchange cited in this article between Greg Caldwell and Duane DeFrees was first published on BehindMLM by reader ‘Getting Educated’ on September 1st.
*sigh* Apparently NOBODY learned ANYTHING from Ad Surf Daily.
Andy Bowdoin forbade EVERYBODY from EVER referring to ASD as an investment, or use anything like “return”, “interest” and so on. They got busted as an Ponzi, unregistered securities, etc.
You can’t preach AFFILIATE COMPLIANCE when the company itself is NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE LAW! That’s HYPOCRISY!
SEC didn’t bust Zeek because of affiliate non-compliance! SEC busted Zeek because it’s a PONZI!
Caldwell is in as much denial as Dooly.
I was trying to explain the basis of the whole linguistic psuedo-compliance issue with the girlfriend today.
I broke it down by explaining that if you were manufacturing shorts in a country where shorts were illegal, calling them “half leg pants” wasn’t going to make a difference.
In some MLM circles stuck in bizarro world for the past year or so however (whenever Caldwell brought his linguistic compliance to Zeek), this has pretty much what they’ve been pushing.
I wasn’t blogging about MLM back when ASD went down but I sincerely hope for the industry that the coverage Zeek Rewards has received means it’ll never happen again on such a wide scale involving so many MLM authority figures.
Ideally it’d never happen again but we of course don’t live in an ideal world.
On a side note, when trying to break down the whole international Ponzi fraud ring conspiracy theories, I borrowed Wright-Olivares’ hamburger analogy and told her that it’d be like me and some people trying to turn McDonalds into a mechanic auto-shop. Utterly impossible because they sell fast food.
As such if the SEC or anyone else rocked up to investigate, they’d come away quietly because no matter what we claimed, McDonalds don’t fix cars.
The only time you need to worry about the authorities investigating your business for being a Ponzi scheme is if you are indeed running a Ponzi scheme. How your members describe it is irrelevant as they cannot dress up what is not there.
Nor can the authorities shut you down for running someting you’re not. Ponzi scheme is a very specific definition and when you’re paying out a daily ROI that’s 98% newly invested affiliate money, you’re pretty much neck deep in that definition, with anything you were planning to do thus being completely irrelevant.
You also have to keep in mind that Caldwell is answering questions with what he knows, which may or may NOT be the truth.
He claims that SEC is after Zeek because that alleged website is comparing all the programs (including Zeek) as “investments”. Does he have proof? Did SEC tell him this? Or did he just SUSPECT?
How did he know that other companies are also getting investigated? Or did he just ASSUME because that’s the “most obvious reason” to him?
Even when you think about it, the idea that “we just need to make all the affiliates compliant with Zeek-speak to make the SEC stay away” makes no sense.
That actually means Zeek is living on borrowed time, that ANYBODY who used the “i-word” is going to trigger Zeekapolypse. “It only takes one”, hah.
Now we know where Troy Dooly got that “SEC is also investigating several other companies” factoid.
Seems SEC have been in contact with Zeek for several weeks. Why else would they know to cancel those training calls and the Red Carpet Event?
Quantifying the amount of time the SEC have/had been investigating based on “hundreds of thousands” of documents being requested is somewhat of a difficult task.
No idea how fast they process the information they request or how long it takes for analysis to manifest itself into court documents. They did provide specfic numbers in their complaint though so I suppose a few weeks (if not longer) is a fair enough guess.
In the article I was driving home the point that I find it quite unbelieveable that Burks managed to keep all this under his belt, in that nobody had any idea the SEC were carting off copies of hundreds of thousands of documents but Burks himself.
Voldemort
Here’s a perfect lesson in spindoctoring aka fraudspeak
Compare:
The business model/compensation plan had been reviewed by no less than six or seven attorneys before I got there
with
six or seven attorneys have been right over the companies’ accounts before I got there
Compensation plan = intangible
companies’ accounts = tangible
Compensation plan = theory
companies accounts = fact
Greg Caldwell / White Hat Solutions have probably been hired for the specific task of fronting the company during a period like this. “You need different type of leadership on the way down than on the way up” strategy.
Dawn, Darryl and the others would have failed miserably in a situation like this, with all the fake positivity and the need for self motivation.
Greg Caldwell is also using the strategy “there’s a difference between being open and incriminating yourself”, meaning that he has to stick to the story about not knowing anything. But if he was hired for that specific task of fronting the company during a shutdown, then he also knew all the important facts in detail.
Zeek’s management probably knew they were in trouble already in December 2011 or January 2012, but decided to play the game for as long as possible with the same strategy as they had used all the time. Greg Caldwell is probably part of an exit-solution, having someone more “neutral” (not so involved) to represent them during the last stages.
Part of his strategy seems to be “blame other affiliates for not being compliant, so you don’t blame us”. It means he tries to direct some of the blame away from the other leaders, placing the cause of the problem “out there” where nobody is able to identify it.
I’ll guess Greg Caldwell also may have been a part of the SRN Denton lawsuit, part of the idea behind that lawsuit. That lawsuit will also direct blame away from the leaders.
Affiliates in general are being fooled. The real cause of the problems is the company itself and its leaders. But they are fooled to direct the blame in all other directions.
And Troy Dooly is a part of this problem, with all his misleading theories about “intl Ponzi ring” and similar theories. He has been a major part of the problem all the time, as a “perfect tool for any conman”.
Troy’s specific problem is his trust in authorities and “experts”, or any other that are able to act in roles similar to those. This makes him a perfect tool for a conman, because he will repeat all you want him to say, and even add his own details to it.
For MLM-leaders, Greg Caldwell’s strategies can probably be interesting to study. Most leaders seems to have very limited repertoir of strategies, and you will need different strategies in different situations.
Greg Caldwell tries to direct blame away from the company and the leaders in Rex Venturee Group, using the tools that are available to him.
I’ll guess we can find a connection between him and Robert Craddock if we dig deep enough, but I don’t believe it will be too difficult too find.
The blame can be directed against:
* the SEC, other governmental agencies
* the court system
* the affiliates themselves (YOU)
* the other affiliates (THEY)
* the critics
* the newspapers, and other media
* the competitors
Making up one or two clear enemies will direct the blame away from the company, and away from the leaders there. It’s even better if you can unite people into groups, since people in groups are more willing to believe in something (and they will add lots of stuff on their own).
A similar strategy is to add confusion to the situation, make it more unclear who is to blame and for what, with misleading theories pointing in all possible directions (but away from the real cause).
Troy has used a strategy like that several times, like in the OFAC issue with 6 banned countries, the “unique bid auction niche”, “gaming theories” and in other theories.
So I have identified two possible strategies so far, and both of them are performed by people that probably have connections to Greg Caldwell.
* Robert Craddock is directed against a known “enemy”, the SEC and the court system.
* Troy Dooly adds confusion to the picture.
The question is whether they’re acting from their own motives or are simply “doing a job” for someone, or both? And whether they are “knowingly actors” or “willingly tools”.
I’ll believe it’s time to check the connections between Robert Craddock and Greg Caldwell / White Hat Solutions, e.g. if they have acted in similar roles before.
Well, Oz, I’m still trying to figure out if the skeptics on this website are “idiots” or “morons.” IS this not the reason why Zeek is gone today?
Let’s ask Bill Clinton how he feels about the situation:
Oz, again…another brilliant article on this Bizarro World (using your perfect term) of Zeek. Wow, there’s a lot to digest…I’m following the thread with great fascination. But there’s a lot of things to catch up on from the night before.
Obviously, you must have taken a working vacation because I know it took a lot of time to write this article. Thank you!!!!
Is anyone keeping track of how many of Troy Dooly’s “friends” and “mentors” are/were involved in scams like Zeek.
He sure seems to love a lot of people that are either idiots or outright criminals.
Anyway, I don’t see “linguistic psuedo-compliance” going away anytime soon. Hell, even Fred Mann’s JSS Tripler scam does it on occasion.
Unfortunately, in this age of easily created digital “products” and “services”, we’ll continue to see this for years to come from the ponzis/pyramids that really want to try and pretend not to be ponzis/pyramids.
If Greg Caldwell really wanted to pretend to be bringing Zeek into compliance, his first logical steps would have been to attempt to get Zeek Rewards removed from sites like MoneyMakerGroup and TalkGold.
But that might have slowed momentum a bit too much. 😉
@ZeekNoMore
Back from vacation now so expect a more regular publishing schedule. This article was actually penned on Saturday, after the last Bidify article I didn’t write anything till today.
Burks had accounts at Charles Schwab…WHAT? He could have been getting 1.5% daily, rather than a lousy 3-5% annually.
Should that give the Zeeksters a clue?
Oh wait, that would be unethical for him to have invested in his own company right? Surely he wouldn’t have ever done anything unethical.
They have. Troy Dooly replied on his website that he said came directly from Craddock, that said Craddock helped shut down a FHTM whistleblower called Joe Isaacs who launched 3 FHTM related websites. And Troy Dooly is the one who told me that Craddock works for Caldwell.
Here’s a screenshot of that comment
i.imgur.com/XHiDn.png
Man, I hate Troy’s comment system.
Apparently I got one comment through to his SNR Denton post, but then got the stupid expired session message when trying to comment on his recent Top 4 Penny Auctions post where he mentions JSS Tripler as a ponzi.
I was trying to get him to clarify, but I guess that won’t happen because I just don’t have the patience to fight his comment system.
Here’s what I had hoped to get a response to:
@Chris Bailey,
That’s brilliant. You should fight Troy’s comment system and post it. I’d like to see his explanation of the hypocrisy.
I’ll be damned.
I just tried again and it apparently went through.
I am starting a new topic called “Caldwell and Craddock’s Greatest HITS” on RealScam.
http://www.realscam.com/f16/caldwell-craddocks-greatest-hits-1555/
Prospective contributors may want to go there.
I know I was on the receiving end of one of Craddock’s hits, and apparently so was Joe Isaacs of FHTM (who’s not as innocent as he portrays himself to be).
Which makes Craddock, while operating a feeder scam, goes after a critic of the scam that he’s feeding… makes perfect sense. Did he tell Caldwell he’s doing it though?
Okay, here’s the summary of Craddock vs. Joe Isaacs of FHTM. As this is NOT Zeek, I’ll be very brief.
* Joe Isaacs was a FHTM rep, pretty good at it too
* Joe Isaacs started marketing “tools” to help FHTM reps (lead generation, email blasting, that sort of thing). I think it was characterized by folks over at Quatloos as “feeder”.
* Craddock helped FHTM sue Joe Isaacs for trademark infringement.
* Isaacs decided to turncoat, start class action against FHTM
* Isaacs eventually lost, but kept the domains up
* Craddock helped FHTM really shut down the websites
So isn’t ironic that Craddock operated a “feeder” for Zeek (that ZTeamBiz thing) while claiming critics of Zeek violated trademark?
Thanks. “Close ties to Greg Caldwell” and “worked for him”, even with a description for where and when that happened.
I’m trying to identify some of the motives behind some of the actions, whether people are protecting their own interests or are “just doing a job for someone else”, or both. It can make huge difference.
If Robert Craddock works for Greg Caldwell, and both of them works for Paul Burks (indirectly), then the SNR Denton lawsuit is probably part of a strategy.
Greg Caldwell is a “problem solver” for businesses in trouble, mostly MLM related businesses. It means he tries to solve some of Paul Burks’ problems, and he has been paid for the job. The same goes for Robert Craddock, he’s probably been paid for the job, too.
When someone pays you, then you’ll have to take care of THEIR interests, too. It means the class action lawsuit can only continue as long as it doesn’t come in conflict with other interests — the interests of Paul Burks (if he’s the one who has paid them for the job).
I’ll have to analyse the different roles here, to see if I can cause some “conflict of interest” somewheree. 😉
No surprise, Troy’s usual non-answer in reply.
What I wanted to reply if his comment system didn’t hate me.
But honestly, neither Troy or his comment system are worth dealing with at this point. If someone is able to post there and wants to ask him to answer the question, feel free.
I have one more exchange with him that I’ll post here, and then I’m done. 🙂
This was my post to Troy on his SNR Denton post.
I meant class of twelve, but missed my omission before submitting on his site.
Troy’s reply.
And finally the reply that I am unable to post there and no longer give a damn about it. 🙂
The explanation being given by zeekler promoters in Florida is the SEC made a mistake and very soon zeekler will be given a clean bill of health.
Part of their story is the SEC barged into Paul Burks office, threaten him with jail and would not even allow him to speak to an attorney.
I asked if the penny auction made enough money to fund the affiliates commissions, and was told it was absolutely profitable.
I’m out very little, so there is no sour grapes here. But these otherwise sensible people seem to be in denial. Or maybe this is a classic “Stockholm syndrome” reaction.
@Chris B — just start a new post instead of hitting reply. If you do “new post” the posts go through, but not the “reply”. At least that’ been my experience.
don’t know if this should be a new topic but this is the latest news for a future for the affilites.
Team leaders have been in conference to find something for their downlines. All in secret..now there are 2 options…quite unbelievable…
#.1…Lyonness…..has Lagos anything to do with this?
#2. should have launched last week but was delayed due to server problems…deja vu
anyway…it’s supposedly going to be a cross between the old zeek and the , soon to be launched, zeebates!
Are they for real? !
Thanks K. Chang, but that only works occasionally.
It’s truly not worth dealing with Dooly at this time.
Did anybody capture a recording of that conference call where Robert Craddock lied through his teeth about the SEC rushing in after Paul Burks’ attorney allegedly told Paul he would go to jail unless he signed everything over?
I wonder if Noell Tin has any idea that Robert Craddock may be slandering him.
The team leaders make money off their “team”. They have to keep the team together, so they have to raise the team’s hopes with SOMETHING, even if it’s bogus.
No way to tell. They may have latched on because Laggos himself had described Lyoness as “plan B” for Zeekheads. I personally find Lyoness VERY suspicious, but we can discuss that over in that review’s comments.
Maybe, maybe not, but then, it’s something to keep their downlines hoooked.
Beware the “excess of hope”.
They already banned me 🙁
I love how people are so impressed by law firms.
Locally to me, attorney Scott Rothstein headed a large, politically-connected law firm, Rothstein-Rosenfeldt-Adler.
The firm is now dissolved and Rothstein is doing 50 years for running a huge Ponzi scheme. His law partners and investors are facing/have faced clawback actions from the receiver as well as massive public humiliation when Scott squealed their dirty laundry to the feds to lighten his sentence.
And these people were/are part of the regional hoi-polloi, the people who regularly appear in the local society pages for various charity balls, etc.
A large firm doesn’t necessarily mean anything, unless you’re really easily impressed.
Scumbags can wear Armani, too.
Oz-I respect your work immensely, and it is an earned respect as I was sucked in by the Kook-Aid of Zeek and vigorously defended them to the end.
I have a doctorate degree and have made plenty of money in my lifetime, but I also know when to admit I’m wrong. I ventured into territory I didn’t understand, and I have a lot of egg on my face. Never again.
You may have covered this, but I haven’t seen it. Do you or anyone here have any idea how to handle income made from this mess. Yes, as guilty as I feel, I show a net profit this year of about 50k.
I don’t expect to keep it and I never spent it so it sits, waiting an official clawback. If it doesn’t come, I’ll gladly write checks to my friends. I would’ve done it by now, but I don’t know where this is all going. But because I have money “earned”, it will need to be reported to the IRS.
Do you have any insight on how that is handled, or can you refer me back to an earlier posts. Whether you made or lost, this sucks and it doesn’t feel any better to be sitting on money you don’t deserve and I just want to do the right thing, but in the right way since I don’t know how it will unfold.
Thanks for any insight from anyone.
The SEC don’t send people to jail, courts do.
Furthermore with Burks lawyered up and hiding, unless they had a live cam feed into Burks office they’re just making up shit.
As a standalone entity, sure. Attached to a Ponzi scheme paying out an implied >100% ROI over 90 days? Not a chance.
The Florida Zeeksters are smoking crack.
@Gregster
Sorry to hear about your situation, unfortunately I don’t feel I know enough about tax and income laws in the US to be giving out any advice on the matters.
I believe with the SEC shutting Zeek down for being a Ponzi that the IRS have some provisions for that but you’d be best served checking with an accountant.
As for paying your friends, probably best to see how this receivership stuff plays out first (uncharted territory for me so I have no idea or much of an interest seeing as it falls outside of MLM).
Hey Oz,
I just listened to that audio earlier and what Craddock actually said was that the after the NC DOJ told Noell Tin what Burks was doing, and this is quoted from the audio
Craddock claimed, of course, that all the NC DOJ had was speculation and innuendo gathered from the web and presented as facts to the attorney.
@Gregster,
the IRS has sections on its’ website for just this situation:
Theft Losses from Investments in “Ponzi” Schemes: Tax Treatment of Distributions Received From a Trustee/Receiver
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Theft-Losses-from-Investments-in-%E2%80%9CPonzi%E2%80%9D-Schemes:-Tax-Treatment-of-Distributions-Received-From-a-Trustee-Receiver
and
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Reporting-Losses-Resulting-from-Ponzi-Schemes
Well the SEC had access to anything they wanted from Zeek, which according to Burks lawyer constituted hundreds of thousands of documents. That’s not speculation or innuendo.
Run a Ponzi scheme, go to jail. Sounds about right to me.
@Gregster
Here is a little more reading on the subject of clawbacks and what may be coming down the road. Jordan Maglich is an attorney whose practice includes white-collar crime and securities and financial litigation.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanmaglich/2012/08/27/up-next-for-zeekrewards-ponzi-scheme-victims-clawbacks/
The only “frozen” e-wallet for zeek is NxPay. Solid trust pay and payza are paying zeek affiliates, albeit in their normal slow manner. This info can be verified easily.
Dawn wright olivares once described NxPAay as Zeek’s “white label” e-wallet. I do not know what that means, but the distinction and the subsequent “special treatment by the receivership” does not seem coincidental.
Is it irresponsible to conclude that NxPay may have been a Rex Venture Group asset? If so, is the next consideration reasonable, that there was a money laundering operation in place?
Looking forward to your insight
@Getting Educated.
Not according to the announcement on Solid Trust Pays’ front page:
http://solidtrustnews.com/2012/08/26/zeekrewards-update/
@littleroundman
Thanks for the link.
I am not quite sure why there has been money sent by STP this past week that was zeek related revenue. I can only say that the facts and the announcement on the sight are at odds.
They don’t make income opportunities like they did back in the good old days, “when a man was a man and a horse was a horse”. So all new opportunities have a Laggos or something similar included. 🙂
We have analysed Lyoness. I can link to a neutral description from one of the members, a factual description for some of the system.
I’m not very neutral in that thread. From a neutral viewpoint, Lyoness can be difficult to shut down (because authorities have problem understanding the system).
It is already facing some pyramid charges in Europe, and that can heavily affect the situation in the U.S., too. So there WILL probably be some problems, but I don’t know WHEN it will happen.
“half leg pants”, that was good. Very analogous to the crap Zeek was peddling.
Like you, I can’t believe so many so-called experts, analysts and attorneys looked things over at Zeek but not one told Paul that his willy was going to be in the ringer if he didn’t change things beyond just tinkering with 3 or 4 words.
Maybe one or some of them did tell him. It’s had to believe he could have or did just ignore all of them. But, I guess that is just what he did.
How would a lawyer not advise Burks that obfuscating the obvious would not fool anyone and would never hold water when the authorities came knocking?
Forget Troy, he claimed some inside knowledge but quite obviously is more amazed with crap like individual names of so-called high esteem and years “in the trade” than opening his beady eyes. I don’t think they’re open yet. The ROI is still Greek to him.
How did that work out for ya Troy? Your name in the mud and not an ounce of credibility left?? jfc
White-label… that basically means Zeek owns or controls NxSystem / nxPay. That *would* explain why nxPay, ostensibly HQ in Oregon, would use a small NC bank to hold its money (and do debit cards?)
Charles Ponzi bought a bank and basically lent himself money to keep the Ponzi going. You think Burks is doing something similar?
Maybe they did, and Burks replied: that doesn’t help, the “business” is running fine. What can we do the minimize the risk of of government investigation instead?
And that is where Caldwell comes in: affiliate compliance, everybody start talking Zeekspeak.
You need to talk to a tax attorney ASAP. This is beyond the expertise of most CPAs.
My personal GUESS (I don’t even do my own taxes… I have an accountant to do it) is you need to report it as if it’s legit, then when the clawback comes, pay it, and report it as loss due to Ponzi scheme (and report the taxes you paid on the lost money, unless you want to file a revised return, which is also possible).
Again, check with a tax attorney.
On the subject of stuff Zeek Rewards owned or might have owned, at this point in time I think it’s safe to say the ‘Paul Burks just bought a MLM company with eleventy billion retail customers’ was pure horseshit right?
I mean, surely by now we’ve had heard of members complaining that their company operations were frozen as a result of the Zeek closure fallout?
Not a peep, because it never happened.
LOL Oz, I’m sure that it was just because the deal hadn’t been finalized yet. 🙂
The SEC had to be talking to Burks (and other top employees I’m sure) and getting files for at least a couple weeks.
I’m guessing that when Zeek management realized that the end was near is when they decided to cancel all training calls & the red carpet event, which as we all know occurred right before Zeek was shut down.
Now the thing which leads me to have nothing but contempt for Paul & the others in management was that they didn’t put a hold on all recruitment.
According to an article I read, they were having recruitment meetings in Montana the very night hours after Zeek was shut down. Nobody ever told Zeekers to stop recruiting new people to invest their money into the ponzi.
Now maybe they might have thought that the SEC wouldn’t shut them down or something, but they (or at least Paul) would have to know the jig was up since they knew where the money was coming from and where it was going.
I know the official Zeek line was always positive positive positive, but with something as serious as knowing that they were likely to be shut down they should have told affiliates to stop recruiting at once.
Read the “consent by Paul Burks” document over at ASDUpdates file section is very illuminating, and explains Burks complete silence.
Basically, the consent decree, which was signed by Burks, in front of notary, and cosigned by his attorney, has an item 16 that say, essentially, “You cannot plead to us no contest and make any public comments that claims you’re innocent”. Presumably, this also applies to Zeek employees.
That would explain why Craddock is leading the charge. He was never officially employed by RVG, despite he claimed to be one.
Wonder SEC had seen that “takedown” letter Craddock sent to me? 🙂
I think you guys are w-a-a-y too nice and w-a-a-a-a-y too charitable when it comes to discussing Zeek and Burks.
This was a fraud from the get go. Which means EVERY member and EVERY dollar was part of the fraud.
After, what was it, 2 years and $600+ million, why would one of the fraudsters have a sudden attack of conscience and refuse new members ??
Let’s be clear here, this was no accident. It’s not a like couple of good ol’ boys made a little mistake or two and lost focus or direction.
These guys were bloody criminals who set out to defraud as many people as they bloody well could. It’s not like they woke up one morning and found themselves in trouble over some technicality.
Well, that depends. As for the gain, a tax advisor will likely tell you it’s regular income. When the clawbacks come, if you have to pay it back it may not be considered a loss at that time, and you will have a hard time taking a deduction for a court ordered restitution.
I do feel a little bad for Troy, I’m sure as a person he is probably a really decent guy.
However there is a threshold in terms of mistakes you can make when you have a privileged position such as his and the amount of faith his sheeple have the Zeek thing is just beyond “REDEMPTION” as he has on shirt often.
He seems to be attacking any and everything at will without proper investigation! Would we ever see an article from Oz without reasonable grounding…… We know the answer to that.
Commenting on his site is next to impossible I have a rebuttal to his reply as usual it’s the same smoke in mirrors that requires an “EXACT” reply and I can’t get the darn thing across to him!
He did investigate… it’s just that, as M_Norway said, he has a different priority than us.
With us, we use modified scientific method: we start with null hypothesis (it’s neither legal nor illegal), and then ask a question, then look for data to prove or disprove it, data that can be sourced, and is divorced from emotional attachments and biased sources.
I don’t know what’s in Troy’s head, but it seems he prefers data FROM biased sources, i.e. people he talks to on a regular basis or have professional relationships with. People like Caldwell, Nehra, Thompson, and when he got to meet Zeek, Dawn and Burks, are the people he believe told him the truth.
Then he doesn’t look any further for corroboration, but instead, look for stuff from his own experience to reinforce what he’d been told. It’s foot-in-door technique used on him, then his own confirmation bias took over.
He didn’t follow the Reagan principle: trust, but verify. He trusts, but he doesn’t verify.
Then, when other people point out that he doesn’t verify, and turned out to be wrong, he then goes into “I didn’t really say that” mode (ad hoc rescue fallacy).
(Either that, or he knew he lied all along, and had carefully worded every statement so nobody can pin it on him, but that’s almost idiotic conspiracy)
Yeah your right Kschang the Reagan Principle nicely sums him up in a nutshell “Trust, But Verify”. I think I might inscribe that right next to my pin board! 🙂
Ever since the Zeek scam this world has really got me invested in online debate I certainly enjoy the analysis.
Absolutely a favorite quote of mine…and one I apply in life 99.9% of the time. Zeek was the .1% lapse.
In fact, I just told a friend yesterday who met “the man of her dreams” on match.com that I was happy for her…however, “trust, but verify,” ie background check. Seriously….
Well, FWIW, I forwarded the audio recording of Craddock making him out to be the Lou Costello of attorneys to Noell Tin.
Naturally, he couldn’t comment on what he did or didn’t say to Paul Burks, but I only felt it fair that he should be made aware of how Craddock is using him as a tool to mislead Zeek affiliates.
Thanks for the thoughts interspersed on tax treatment and obligations regarding income derived from ZeekRewards. If anyone else is interested in this, I found an excellent source of information and may contact him further.
But this article is extremely helpful and provides a lot of solid information regarding ponzi schemes and tax treatment:
http://www.lehmantaxlaw.com/pdf/BNA_9_2011.pdf
Hit the nail on the head, K. Pretty much my thoughts and feelings as well.
I suppose in Troy’s mind, any negative news about the industry is inevitable, but outweighed by the successes of the representatives in successful, legit companies. So he opts to maintain a positive outlook regardless of the hits, misses, lashes, and bashes.
I’m sure he’ll be much more careful and slower to glorify and tout the “awesomeness” of the next big promising company.
I could also be mistaken.
I would imagine they called it “Project: Great Big Money Grab And Scram” before they launched it.
I could see the principle players behind the scenes on a much anticipated conference call listening to Paul saying: “I got this wild and crazy idea … and when it’s all over, we’ll be sippin’ on Martini’s way past retirement. ”
@LRM — I’ll take a slight different view as to how did Zeek end up that way. I personally think that Burks didn’t set out to create a Ponzi, at least not when he started RVG. After all, he did go 15 years flying under the radar, so to speak, with one forgettable offer after another, and pretty honest living, until 2 years ago.
On my Zeek timeline, they started FSC Auctions in March 2010, renamed it to Zeekler in June 2010, and also ran mybidshack (previously owned by Daryl Douglas, merged into Zeek) in like August. They ran the two side by side as they said “tweak the comp plan”.
Sometime between that and the launch of ZeekRewards in January 2011, they made the decision to turn it into an ASD-style Ponzi, and made the decision to “license” the ZeekRewards name from Ebon Research (which we assume to be the case).
I am going to make a prediction: link between Ebon Research (owner of ZeekRewards name and logo) and Zeek is also going to turn out to be Daryl Douglas. Why? I think owner of Ebon Research is probably gonna be a friend or relative or idol of Daryl Douglas.
As for WHO made the decision to turn it that way, that’d be a group effort, but Burks will take the fall for it, as he’s the managing partner. The question is who will Burks finger next.
Match.com ???
I thought most of them visited “BehindMLM.com” and similar sites, following the idea “hunt them down in their own environment”? 🙂
Don’t quite get your comment. Then again, sometimes I don’t get jokes and they have to be explained. Sometimes I think I may be a bit of an airhead. 🙂
The friend who went to match.com isn’t remotely connected to Zeek. I was just making the point that the “Trust but verify” principle which in the past is usually automatic for me, had a severe lapse in Zeek, which has now put my caution and suspicion in overdrive.
After posting that comment, I realized too that even though I gave her that advice, she wasn’t that receptive to it. I saw clearly the need for protecting herself, but she wants to believe she can have happiness.
Perhaps that’s what precipitated my lapse…I wanted to believe there was an easy way to make up for the losses in our business due to the economic downturn…I wanted to believe we could still retire sooner rather than later.
So, even if I had found this site and other sources of unbiased information, maybe I just had to learn the hard way.
That’s how scammers get you… you don’t actually believe in the scam. You believe the “goodness” that you somehow associated with the scam (with a lot of prompting / priming by the scammers).
It’s basically faith (believe, not verify), and it has no place in business or income opportunities. It may have a place in love and religion, but that’s for a different topic. 😀
K. Chang:
I really believe that the NxPay connection is the “smoking gun” for investigators to consider the breadth of this organized scheme.
By reviewing the actions taken by leaders in zeek with regards to NxPay, it can be determined who was knowledgeable and responsible besides the “isolated mastermind – Paul Burks” that many leaders are deflecting their culpability to.
We know that the company stopped issuing paper checks at the end of May. They told reps to cash by June 1 or checks would not be honored.
So, reps went to e-wallets for pay. Up until this point, only STP and AlertPay (Payza) were available. That is when NxPay shows up. Because fees are relatively low most people request payment thru NxPay.
Well, that works for about a week or 2 and then “claw back”. Yep, that was the term in the back offices next to the payment method for NxPay. Freudian slip, I am guessing, for what is to come, but I digress.
So now those payment requests need to be re-submitted to STP or Payza. This becomes a nightmare. But yes, many get paid money over a period of about 5-6 weeks.
Here is where the “smoking gun” is. In late July word spreads on a Wednesday that NxPay is back up and running. Even better, the normal 2 week drag (time delay – for “security”) is going to be lifted. So, if you want a check quickly all you have to do is toggle to 0% for a couple of days and request payment on Sunday and the proceeds would be in your account Monday with no 2 week wait.
This was not posted on ZeekRewardsNews yet. Looking back, I thought this was just an attempt by zeek to help all those who endured STP and Payza delays.
Why was the word out before released by the company? I believe it was because there was a massive cash out by those with knowledge about what was coming.
Why was the 2 week drag not implemented? I believe that the clock was ticking. The 2 week drag would mean the money could not be accessed in time.
My suspicion is that the word leaked about the quick payout wednesday that week. The company released the info late wednesday like it was news, to spin it.
But, if the investigators, whoever they might be, look at that one weeks transactions and see who cashed out big early that week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday), then I feel they can have a good understanding as to how organized this was.
I am diligently looking for the e-mails and press releases that support the timeline above. Following this forum, I am sure others can verify or correct me.
Most assured, the quick NxPay payout was after the NC DOJ CID on July 6.
NxPay relationship with zeek….something no smell so good.
Zeek rewards news issued release on 7-18 that NxPay would process payment requests with no 2 week drag for payments requested by Sunday 7-21. “Powers that be” had already “phoned” some of their people early in the week. No e-mails…..hmmmm.
The normal 2 week drag would have payments processed on 8-6-2012. That might have been too late for those who new what was coming.
P.s. how do those green boxes get done, so I can acknowledge what comment I am responding to
A couple of things stood out for me in this saga of Zeek. Paul truly believed that my the mere hiring of Gerald Nehra, the government would not touch them.
He made the comment in the video that when the government saw Gerald Nehra’s name, they knew a company was in compliance and to leave them alone; or words to that effect as I am paraphrasing here.
Then we had Dawn metioning clawbacks in one of the conference calls when discussing the E-Wallet situation if my memory serves me correctly. Look at the date of that call and you have a good idea of when the SEC was talking with Paul.
My personal belief is that the SEC started talking to Paul towards the end of May and that is what prompted the “switching of banks” using the line they had outgrown their two local banks.
They were fearing the insiders would not be able to get enough of their money out before the SEC took action. They knew the banks would be required to report all large transactions to the feds, and this would raise alarms with the SEC to possibly move faster.–
It seems that everything started changing at that point in time, and people shortly thereafter started disappearing from the scene. Just my theory as to when the SEC got involved. One day we just might find out for sure.
Why oh why didn’t I take the blue pill.
Time will tell but I suspect the purchase of the great friggen big warehouse is just as bogus. I’m sure when the initial reports from the receiver are made public we’ll have the answer.
I tired to get Troy to verify the “they bought an mlm” story, pointing out that if the sale was real and already went through then there’s a MLM company out there which is now owned by the court appointed receiver. But it seems he’s just a little backed up on reading his e-mails.
Quote from a comment:
1. Highlight the text you want to quote (with the mouse)
2. Click “Quote”
Manual method, for other quotes:
<blockquote> and </blockquote> tags (but I don’t know how to show it to you).
Thanks.
Well, Troy did post my response, although he then answered a question I didn’t ask, and again complained about RVG not getting a “day in a court of law”.
Troy, for the love of all that is good, RVG did indeed get a day in fount of a court of law. And they very meekly said “yeah, its all true” and were then found guilty.
May this be a lesson to all people that if something is too good to be true then it is.
A friend of mine who is not to business savvy got me to attend a Zeek’s presenttion. I immedatley susupected foul play when I asked the the host what percentge of revenue came from subs vs selling actual products fom the auction.
The host said he did not know the exact numbers but he knew the subs comprised a greater portion of the revenue. I then told him that it was inappropriate to not disclose this glaring fact during the presentation. I then told them it was a scam.
Then the host tried to make me look like a diifficult person in front of the group by rattling off the names of his spiritual oriented and highly evlolved friends, some of who were making 4 times their money.
I advised my friend not to put in any money and thank God he didn’t.
Last I heard the host of the event has boasted that he already has found a new MLM scam. Some people either never learn or don”t care as they hope to cash in before the jig is up.
Pretty awful people who claim they are “spiritual” while knowingly deceiving their friends.
Actually, what they said is “no comment, but I’ll accept plea deal”.
@Chang
Nxpay is indeed a smoking gun, as much as Dooly is a $20,000 red herring. That’s about all that redneck got out of the deal, but his efforts were more focused on the finder’s fee for helping set up ZeeBates.
I don’t think Dooly is dishonest as others believe; I believe he is maybe naive or simply a dumbass tool. I do think he knew about that CID before he started blogging about it, but he was in an awkward situation.
Looking at clues, I’m guessing the SEC was talking to Burks before July 6, and we are going to ultimately see the evidence of Dawn, Douglas, and the other rats cashing out as you addressed above.
I think that was GE, not me, pointing out the NxPay cashout.
I have to give credit where it’s due, so I’d like to say that I’m carrying on a dialogue of sorts with Troy Dooly and while I do not agree with his positions at all, the man has been more than fair with me after I had some pretty harsh comments about him on his site.
Comments he could have just ignored and not published but that he chose to not only allow but to address them with good faith arguments of his own. We have vastly different points of view but I have come in the last 24 hours to have a lot of respect for his character.
GBE
Kind of sort of. He did have to admit the facts alleged in the complaint, which is the essence of “no contest” pleas.
Those facts are going to be hard to explain when he faces criminal charges.
I read and listened to Dooly everyday since March of this year. I never doubted his character, still don’t. However I view him about the same way I view most MLM characteristics: Cheesy, hokey, often redneck, gimmicky tabloids.
Troy was always going to get back with you answers. Things are always “crazy,” “wow!” ” you hear my cell phone going off.” But you rarely got an answer nor much info of substance. Like the breaking news of Zeek in Europe-hogwash.
“Get skin in the game!”
I’ve heard other clowns use this bullshit terminology because most mlm people I meet are FOLLOWERS, they just copy cult like terminology like that because they heard someone else say it.
These type of people are always looking for the next big thing, jumping around from one gimmick to the next. Toss them a T-shirt and you’ ll make them **** in their pants from excitement.
Troy fits right in with this crowd. Look at the picture of those hayseeds in at the Lexington Holiday Inn eating off paper plates, nodding and clapping like a bunch of flapping seals on valium and Zeek crack. Troy fits right in with this crowd.
Again, I don’t doubt his character. However, it is difficult for me to have respect for what he says based on the genre he represents. There is never ending b.s., or as Oz defines it, “…linguistic psuedo-compliance and wordsmithing.” Troy does it constantly.
He is a product of his environment: wearing redneck t-shirts that look like Ed Hardy vomited on, staying dangerous, staying strong, and definitely acting like he is in network marketing.
LOL, it’s maddening, isn’t it? 🙂
In addtion to the whole “day in court” thing, Troy keeps on claiming how upcoming changes to the RPP could have/would have made everything compliant. He states:
It was Paul Burks’ method of calculating the RPP that made it a ponzi in the first place.
Burks obviously knew that he had to keep the RPP payments at a level that would give investors over 100% ROI or it would all start to unravel more quickly. That’s why he just made up the numbers to keep it at or around a 1.5% daily average.
If Burks had run the RPP in a legitimate and legal fashion from the start, there would have been no SEC shutdown, Oz’s initial review would have looked a hell of a lot different, and we wouldn’t be having any of these discussions.
Of course, if Burks had run the RPP legitimately, Zeek Rewards would not have gained a foothold on ponzi promotion sites like TalkGold and MoneyMakerGroup and would not have exploded like it did.
Instead, Paul Burks would have just been running a legitimate MLM where reps would have actually needed to find real customers who were truly interested in penny auctions.
Perhaps Paul Burks just got tired of running the everyday MLM that never really attained any great traction and wanted to be big dog in the MLM world before he retired.
I’ve never been able to find statements directly from Burks about his “Exact Method Marketing”, but anything that tells people there can be a 95% success rate is selling lies.
Paul Burks’ EMM nonsense has been around for a number of years, so he has been building up to this ponzi for quite some time.
It just took him a while to find the perfect ponzi product and have everything fall into place.
Saw this comment on mlm helpdesk from someone who clearly wasn’t happy with Troy signing off with.
“Living In Epic Delusion”
Christ I nearly fell off my chair ROFL
To all the people who think Zeek would have been fine had the SEC just waited a few weeks until the new programs kicked in I present a perfect analogy.
Say you robbed a bank every day for a period of time, and then got a lawyer who said you can’t rob banks anymore. So you start calling them “emergency withdrawals” How do you think that would work out for you?
That’s what zeek did.
But even going a step further and assume you didn’t call them emergency withdrawals, you really did quit doing them, and you just went to the bank, waited in line and made a regular withdrawal.
That’s what “waiting for the new compliance program to kick in” would have been. DO you think that you are home free on the banks you robbed to begin with?
LOL, how about this guy admitting that he and other MLM promoters knew exactly what Zeek Rewards was. His first admission is at about 1:58:
Dooly posted the video on his site as well because it’s a rant against him.Guys like this should be locked up on principle alone. 🙂
That dude’s avatar looks familiar… I think he might have posted here on one of the Zeek threads.
After reading all on here about Zeek I have my antennae up, thank you for opening my eyes and feeding the information about these types of businesses.
Another ‘investment’ business has just crossed my email, (Ozedit: investment opportunities aren’t MLM and thus fall outside of the scope of this blog).
I know he was posting a good bit in one of the Bidify threads.
Mostly arguing it was legit because he was making money.
The George Foreman Grill comment was funny. Todd Hirsch has commented here. Didn’t agree with most of his video, but interesting to see the Ponzi scammers all calling Troy out “how could you NOT have known it was a Ponzi?”
Todd Hirsch mostly participated in the Bidify threads here. I had to start culling his comments because they increasingly were outright spam.
He then tried to publish a mountain of off-topic abusive commentary directed at myself (whilst simultaenously singing the praises of Bidify) and has remained in the spam bin since.
He hasn’t tried to publish anything since the SEC and Bidify both took his Ponzi points away.
Wow, the entertainment value of that video makes it a MUST SEE!!
Would really like to know what’s in that cup he hits at about 8:33. Clearly he’d been hitting it quite a bit before he turned the camera on!! Funny stuff!
Todd Hirsch is a longtime player. Search MMG for the Payusforward dot com thread. It was Todd’s stupid little one by three cycling matrix pyramid scheme that seems to have lived longer in prelaunch than it did post launch.
He’s another longtime small timer who should thank Troy for the publicity he gave them.
And these are exactly the people the authorities need to start targeting.
Without ponzi promoters like him, it would be a lot more difficult for these types of scams to gain traction.
I really don’t see Troy going to prison unless the authorities can actually prove that Troy was getting paid to promote Zeek while knowing it was a ponzi scheme.
If he was getting paid it was under the table. Perhaps that’s why he’s still professing ignorance and saying that he doesn’t believe it was a ponzi, but I think actually getting a conviction would be hard at this point.
LOL, Todd apparently pulled his video stating:
One would also have to assume he might have figured out it was unwise to admit he was deliberating promoting a ponzi on video.
Agreed Joe Mama.
Unless they dig up some documentation that he was involved in a more significant way than just getting his expenses reimbursed for Red Carpet Events and things like that, I doubt they would pursue him.
For Troy to be charged, he would have to do something really stupid like admitting he thought it was a ponzi on video. 😉
Hirsch took the video down because in it he quite clearly states he knew Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme all along and promoted it that way. Any other reasons he come up with are just the usual Hirsch brand of marketing bullshit.
He probably did the same with Bidify till they pulled the Ponzi points plug.
IMHO Hirsch decided to use Troy Dooly for some free publicity, though he did start pretty early. Here’s his own post on the subject… dated May 2012.
https://behindmlm.com/companies/co2-rewards-review-selling-carbon-offset-units/#comment-76479
Which most likely is what he’s pissed off about in the first place. No way he’ll sell bids on a commission basis so all the hype he put into biddify is for naught. Now he needs to find another passive income opportunity to spam the web about.
Wait… what exactly did he say? I think he said Zeek and Bidify are the same! What the heck… Argh! That’s what I get for posting before breakfast… 😛
Does this sound familiar to anyone here? Kind of like the “good old days”, except for the fact that it is going on as we speak. Wow, people really kill me!!
Form the “Zeek Rewards Affiliates United Against the SEC” FB page, 2pm EST 9-4-2012:
…”Paul,,Brooks”, Books, Burkes, yeah, he had an UGLY BACK OFFICE (prison worthy all and in of itself)
Yeah, that quote came at about the time that last hit on his drink was getting into his blood stream. Clearly some strong stuff in that cup.
That whole thing was some funny stuff. Hope somebody made a copy.
Not sure if this has been posted in any of the Zeek-related articles but just found this article at the Dispatch. It was published 8/31 and offers background on the reporter that’s been covering the Zeek story, 23-year-old Nash Dunn.
I must say I’m in that group of folks waiting for more.
http://mywritestuff.blogs.the-dispatch.com/10330/reporting-zeek-a-story-of-timing-talent-and-truth/
Yes, one of my facebook friends made a mini rant about how the evil government shut down a legal and profitable business for no reason and hoped that the legal system would work so that Zeek could go back into business. You have to be kidding me.
If anyone thinks that there’s even a chance that Zeek will go back into business, all they have to do is read the “Consent of Defendant Rex Venture Group” located here:
https://sites.google.com/site/asdupdatesfiles/documents/other-asd-cases/12-cv-00519-zeek-rewards-sec-case
Read paragraphs 5 and 6, especially 6. Zeek is never coming back.
Drinking tends to cloud one’s judgement somewhat and makes us say things better left unsaid. Good thing he wasn’t driving too.
I’m assuming that there is no other place to view the video that was taken down. If it can be viewed someplace, I’d love to see it. Thanks!
I can give you a visual description.
The video was around 13-14 minutes long. The main actor was Todd Hirsch’ T-shirt (black, with “Bidify” printed), with Todd Hirsch wearing that T-shirt (you didn’t actually see HIM, only the T-shirt).
In the background there was a suspension bridge at night, with some “rolling lights” light-effects. Probably a premade bluescreen-video.
I tried to identify the bridge without any success, so I hope you can accept the video “Driving through the Laerdals tunnell, 8 times the normal speed”, as a replacement? It has a little more content than the other video.
The message in the video was mostly a personal message to Troy Dooly, about Troy’s role in promoting Zeek and about how little respect people (Todd Hirsch) has for him as an expert.M_Norway: Thanks! Just before reading your message, I found it on the other site and listened to it. Your description is quite accurate. Just confirms the fact that I will never ever be in MLM of any sort in the future.
Well, I’m glad Troy or someone else captured it and posted it back on Troy’s site.
I would like to see that video. Any chance someone has a link to it?
Courtesy of MLMHelpdesk I’ve replaced Hirsch’s deleted video with an alternative stream to the initial comment (#85) mentioning it.
If you have seen ONE “T-shirt video”, you have seen them all.
Visually they’re comparable to “Driving through the Laerdals Tunnell”, without the 6-13-20 kilometer caves, and without the sequence when you come out on the other side of the tunnell.
Hirsch . . . Dooly . . . both are representative of the “pond scum” that permeates the MLM industry.
Here’s some more fun from a few days ago on the “Affiliates United” FB page. Sounds like someone was on to them. Response from the Admin/Moderator sounds like the Admin/Moderator is a true blue Zeekhead. Maybe it’s Dawn. Hard to believe this stuff is real, but it is!!
Yes, it means the game is over. Especially when you consider that he was talking to the SEC for probably a couple months at least before RVG was shut down and handed over to the government on August 16th.
Oh and I should also mention that the forms Paul signed, which are readily available online, also state that he forfeits his right to a jury trial and any appeal to the agreement that he signed.
He also agreed to not run any more investment schemes in the future. So it’s a done deal. Zeek is never coming back, despite what all the Kool Aid drinkers want to think. They’ll have to find another get-rich-quick scheme to throw their money into.
Jordan Maglich has a new article on his PonziTracker.com site:
http://www.ponzitracker.com/main/2012/9/5/zeekrewards-update-banks-report-account-balances-receiver-ta.html
Not much “new” info, but it’s well-written and explains some issues surrounding unprocessed cashier’s checks and Burks’ personal assets.
Interesting new update from PPBlog, ZTeamBiz no longer able to take PayPal:
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2012/09/07/bulletin-zteambiz-site-purportedly-raising-funds-to-defend-zeek-affiliates-no-longer-has-access-to-paypal-site-weaves-conspiracy-theory-that-ebay-didnt-want-zeek-to-survive/
Looks like the whole SNR Denton facade was bullshit and they are going to use someone else Troy has just added a new article to his site in which Craddock confirms this.
Also seems he wasn’t to forthcoming with all the answers to Troy’s questions. So there we have it more backhanders for the Zeek heads while they fund the scumbags.
In fact it’s pretty much aimed at you OZ might wanna have a look.
Already replied. Comment in moderation.
What the people on the Zeek Rewards payroll believed is irrelevant. Mechanically the compensation plan was an investment Ponzi scheme.
End of story.
Of course they were, because at the end of the day that made Zeek Rewards a Ponzi scheme and was the core of the business. Its existance made everything else irrelevant.
What’s there to manipulate? Set your ROI to 0% re-investment and away you go.
Of course they did. Regardless of what Burks might have been tellin them they all knew SEC + obvious Ponzi scheme = disaster.
Cash out quietly whilst the sheep continue to re-invest and attract new sheep to invest.
Coming from company management this is simply dispicable.
This would (and most likely did) set off alarm bells within managment and prompted the ramping cash outs that occured prior to Zeek Rewards shutting down.
They were the only ones that knew (or had information to accurately suspect something was up), and kept it secret, quietly cashing out while the rest of the affiliate base re-invested, attracted new investors.
The VPN still connected to the Zeek Rewards backend and activity would have been easy to monitor from that end.
VPN just means snooping on the connection would have been difficult. If the VPN is connecting to systems you have access, it’s a moot point.
Please don’t waste my time asserting executive management didn’t have access to Zeek’s IT dept or weren’t in communication with them (of which, most likely most of them had paying affiliate accounts too and would have been been completely aware of hundreds of thousands of document requests being sent through the VPN connection).
Which, based on the professionals who have reviewed them, don’t suggest a Ponzi was being run.
Or that, when presented with the prospect of earning bajillions of dollars, they decided the compensation plan mechanics were irrelevant and thought telling people to not call it an investment mostly funded by newly invested money from members meant it wasn’t.
Well I had access to the compensation plan and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t in-house.
Come to think of it anyone with an internet connection had access to Zeek Rewards’ compensation plan. Exactly how big are you proposing Zeek Reward’s “house” was?
But why was Noel Tin ONLY representing Paul Burks but no one was allowed to represent the company?
Because like all Ponzi scheme operators, Paul Burks only cares about Paul Burks.
Contrary to popular belief he wasn’t Jesus Christ or Santa Clause reincarnate and knew full well what he was doing.
As evidenced by the cashouts some of his buddies knew what he was up to, and as per some of the statements you’ve received, allegedly some did not.
How it was promoted is ultimately irrelvant is and is just linguistic psuedo-compliance bullshit that I addressed in the article.
Mechanically Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme, how it was promoted or desribed was irrelevant.
As for Greg Caldwell,
Yet he took on the position of COO anyway.
Caldwell dismissed and and all criticism of Zeek Rewards of his own accord and an official capacity as COO of Zeek Rewards.
Based on his knowledge something was up and what he knew about Burks off-location liasons’ and the repeated alleged denials of access to information that was needed for basic due diliegence into the company he just accepted an executive management position at, things don’t add up.
Either Caldwell was talking out of his arse (knowing full well the SEC were involved and that they didn’t give two rats about their being 8 complaints or not, they were there to investigate the Ponzi scheme operating on a massive scale), or he was doing his best to encourage new investors to come on board and keep existing investors re-investing their daily ROI.
Quite clearly, in order to arrive at such a conclusion it has to be presumed he’d done his own due diligence and investigation.
If that didn’t extend past “I asked Paul Burks and he said “we’re good”, that is inexcusable professional failure on Caldwell’s behalf and he needs to be held accountable for it. No excuses, no “but but I didn’t know” bullshit.
The SEC only barred him from going public in the last few days, he had every opportunity to look into the company he was being paid by and at the end of the day wound up working for, supporting and proclaiming the legitimacy of a Ponzi scheme.
That is probably going to be Caldwell’s greatest achievement legacy wise in MLM and it’s something that will follow him around for the rest of his career. And it’s on him, nobody else.
Honestly Troy, I don’t know why you’ve got such a hard-on for the guy.
then Zeek Rewards would have ceased to exist.
People were in it for the Ponzi scheme and nothing else. Wake up Troy.
First time poster here. My cousin tried to interest me in Zeekler; I told her it was too good to be true. She told me that though I did not understand it some “really smart businessmen” she knew had put up $10,000 (proving beyond a doubt that smart people invest in Zeekler) and that I should join and “Earn while I learn” like she/they were doing.
My cousin is an irresponsible idiot.
Thanks for all the good information you have been providing.
Good News About Zeek Rewards. Oz contact Troy to see if this is real.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zeek-Rewards-Affiliates-United-Against-The-SEC/465061326857478
@Anthony, it’s bull crap of the highest order. To save me the time in retyping I’ll thank Oz for his indulgence in linking to my opinion of this:
http://www.realscam.com/f10/zeek-rewards-how-get-3k-month-starting-free-member-642/index39.html#post27972
Note, I was replying to Dave’s e-mail and not Mary’s facebook post but they deal with the same issues.
@Anthony — come on, you really believe in tabloid style reporting? Just because someone SAID SO doesn’t make it true.
All that information is HEARSAY that allegedly came from Robert Craddock, a guy with UNKNOWN ties to RVG, except once he presented himself as a CONSULTANT to RVG. When Troy called him up, it’s “can neither confirm nor deny”.
This is no different than the tabloids reporting “XYZ is illegitimate son of Elvis”. Who said so? They quoted someone saying so. Is he credible? Can he prove it? Who the f___ cares, just print it!
I am starting to lose a lot of respect for Troy Dooly I had previously. This is pure rumor and hearsay, and thus, completely worthless as “news”.
Those who studied the Ad Surf Daily Ponzi will recall the EXACT same thing was claimed by ITS supporters, that Secret Service didn’t have a case and was “pushing” the prosecutors too proud to drop the case, and so on and so forth.
I hate to repeat myself, but here’s that quote again:
“Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.” — George Santayana
And you’re about to see the SAME thing again, folks. I’ve LONG since pointed out Zeek is ASD 2.0. They are even following the same post-collapse playbook. Makes you wonder who is REALLY running the game, since it can’t be Burks?
Not to mention that we, here, at BehindMLM, have called out all of these issues early on. Including:
– What’s to prevent insiders from cashing out when they see signs of the collapse?
– The very likelihood that Robert Craddock is just enriching himself by appealing to affiliates to fight against the evil SEC, and that claims of legal representation are likely false or heavily misrepresented, and the lack of accounting & transparency will just mean a pay day for Craddock, and more money fleeced from affiliates.
– Everything Oz replied above, except we did it in real-time, and without access to the “insiders” that Troy Dooly had.
Is it necessary to insult people….or are you just trying to proof to your self you are smart?
In some cases jojangles, people are venting at those who tried to get them involved and then mocked, ridiculed, or insulted them when they refused.
People are people and do what they do.
As for the update from Dave Kettner, this is definitely looking more and more like ASD 2.0
I think Troy Dooly really needs to read up on how things played out after ASD went down.
It’s almost like these guys are using form letters, just changing the names and dates.
Why should they vent if they lost nothing? Would be better to maybe offer some condolence. Anyway, not fighting about it , just don’t agree personal insults should arise in a place like this…..
The definition for the audience here is “normal people, without any specific profession” (like lawyers, accountants, or nannies), so you can expect relatively “normal” behaviour.
And the information about “My cousin is an irresponsible idiot” seemed like factual information rather than rumours. 🙂
still an unecessary personal insult….
@Anthony
The SEC don’t discuss active investigations. With no provided source other than “our attorneys”, I’ll not the claims but am not taking any of them seriously.
I imagine SNR booted them because it’s a dud case, you don’t become top lawyers taking on dud cases. As for the SEC claims, without a credible source it’s just some guy trying to convince people to invest in the 12 top earners legal defense.
Despite cashing out whilst everyone else lost their investments, these guys continue to bleed investors getting them to fund their legal defenses because they don’t want to give any money back.
All a bit tragic really.
jojangles, were you on the receiving end of any of that? Most of us here were at some point over that past months.
Some of us with multiple Zeekheads, and we got that after giving them clear, reasoned and (as it not surprisingly turned out) accurate assessments of what they were so enthusiastically promoting.
“irresponsible idiot” was pretty mild really after being on the receiving end of some of the Zeekheads mindlessness.
Why, being bamboozled isn’t enough of a reason to vent? As in “how can you be dumb enough to drag me into this?”
That B.S. letter is also loaded with conflicting statements.
If the SEC was admitting that it was wrong, why would it be considering clawbacks at all?
And do you really think that a government agency would not go after what it considered ill gotten gains just because it couldn’t get money from others out of their reach? That’s like saying they would arrest U.S. based members of a drug cartel because the majority of the cartel lived outside of their jurisdiction.
Do you really believe that the SEC would actually recommend a law firm to do an opinion letter so that they don’t make such a “HUGE mistake” again?
Yeah, that’s what government agencies say and do.
Oops, our bad. We’ll fix it all up for you so we don’t have to bother you again.
LOL.
Question still remains, was Zeek legit? It doesn’t matter who’s who, or what has transpired, what matters is whether or not Zeek’s model was legit and the SEC’s claims of which neither have been proven.
They weren’t bamboozled….they didn’t join
Cannot the SEC consider clawbacks even while/if it’s claims were false? Well, why not? What corruption stops at government level?
No, that question only remains for those who want to desperately cling to false hope.
Paul Burks, the man who claimed he spent over a decade creating and fine tuning a system that almost everybody could be successful in, had the opportunity to go to civil trial and prove Zeek’s legitimacy.
He chose not to do so, effectively throwing in the towel on better than 15 years of running online “opportunities”.
He chose to plead no contest in the hopes of saving his own hide from the same fate as Andy Bowdoin.
Sure Red, the SEC is going to state that they were wrong in shutting down Zeek and then still pursue clawbacks.
More of the same B.S. that Disner and crew spewed in the post ASD stupidity.
What is alarming is that a US goverment department can now say it can’t prove a couple of issues it shut Zeek down for. That’s if you can believe the latest allegation of this.
Well, if you track the history of what the people claiming this have been involved in, you would know quite easily how likely it is to be true.
It’s far more likely that Hollywood will be calling me for a leading man role in the next summer blockbuster.
What’s alarming is the amount of sh__ someone who’s not involved directly (i.e. no skin in the game) can say about the US government that shut down a scam.
Who appointed him leader any way?
“IT” didn’t shut down anything.
“IT” complained to a Federal court that, in “ITS” opinion, Zeek Rewards was an illegal operation and presented evidence to support “ITS” complaint.
The Federal Court judge then gave Zeek And Paul Burks the opportunity to challenge the complaint.
An opportunity both Burks and Zeek chose to refuse to take.
The Federal Court Judge then accepted the evidence presented by the S.E.C. and HE (the Federal Court judge) issued the order and HE appointed the temporary receiver.
Now, if you want to claim the S.E.C. is corrupt, fine.
HOWEVER you have to then accept the Federal Court judge is also corrupt AND Paul Burks on behalf of Zeek is also corrupt AND Paul Burks gave away his money and company based on nothing more than a conspiracy AND the receiver is also part of the conspiracy.
If you believe all of that, then, I’m sorry, but you’re in for a very long and very painful period of time until all is revealed in the criminal case.
Who’s not directly involved and who was appointed leader and leader of what?
Is this likely to be true..the 2 ‘mistakes’ SEC supoosedly made..
The SEC acknowledged that there are a couple of problems with the case against Zeek Rewards and Rex Venture group. Here are the problems:
We (the SEC) are not able to find a victim in this case. We are not able to find anybody at this time that has been harmed by Zeek Rewards.
We (the SEC) are having a hard time finding a security.
@ jojangles
Neither statement is likely to be true.
They are both likely to be lies made up by Kettner and/or Craddock.
Reread what littleroundman stated above.
Reread what Kettner is claiming and ask yourself how much sense it makes and how realistic it sounds.
Note also that Craddock was apparently unwilling to confirm any of this with Troy Dooly and that this is all supposedly coming from an as yet unnamed law firm.
And that is the whole problem.
It simply doesn’t matter whether or not the “model” was legitimate.
What matters is what was actually happening.
In fact, the S.E.C. complaint spends a considerable amount of time explaining exactly how the “model” differed from what Zeek was really doing.
People seem to be conveniently overlooking the fact the S.E.C. wasn’t guessing when it presented the complaint to the court.
The S.E.C. was “inside” Zeek.
It has hundreds of thousands of documents and emails.
It has the accounts, it has the databases.
In short, it had EVERYTHING it needed to make the complaint stick and, what’s more, it had them BEFORE it lodged the complaint.
Why on earth do you think made Paul Burks meekly accept the penalty and give up and walk away ??
Do you have proof as to SEC being ‘inside’ Zeek, to them having thousands of documents and emails, the accounts and databases?
Have you not been following along?
Perhaps you should take some time and review the numerous filings that are posted at https://sites.google.com/site/asdupdatesfiles/documents/other-asd-cases/12-cv-00519-zeek-rewards-sec-case
Burks was busy cutting a deal with the SEC prior to everything getting shut down.
Whoever’s spreading this “SEC don’t know anything” info, of course.
There was no mistake. If there was one, do you really think Burks would not take his chances in a jury trial? Remember, Noell Tin is one of the best attorneys in N.C, despite the bullsh__ spread by that same “leader”.
How about a statement in a court motion filed by Burks’ attorney?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxhc2R1cGRhdGVzZmlsZXN8Z3g6NzQ3MjkzZDMzODVkNzhmMA
But who is this ‘leader’ spreading the bs….u have a name?
They would be Dave Kettner and Robert Craddock.
Yes, it’s in Paul Burk’s own motions filed in court. The Zeek conspiracy theorists don’t have a leg to stand on when Paul Burk’s own motion to the court points out the hundreds of thousands of documents shared with the SEC.
To quote the PPBlog which references the legal filings:
Ok…thanks to both of the above replies
Sure do.
you can download the .pdf of DEFENDANT PAUL BURKS’ RESPONSE TO RECEIVER’S MOTION here: https://sites.google.com/site/asdupdatesfiles/documents/other-asd-cases/12-cv-00519-zeek-rewards-sec-case/ZeekDoc20.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
section (2) states: “On August 17, following a period of co operation between Mr Burks and Rex Ventures Group, LLC and the S.E.C., co operation that included the production of hundreds of thousands of documents, including financial records, emails and all manner of electronic files – the defendants entered into a consent agreement with the S.E.C.Immediately after these filings took place, the court, inter alia, entered the agreed order”
Remember, the document was “DEFENDANT PAUL BURKS’ RESPONSE TO RECEIVER’S MOTION” it was NOT a S.E.C. or government document and was written and submitted by Burks’ attorney.
1. Unsubstantiated: adj, not established as valid or genuine unsubstantiated allegations.
2. Naive: adj, lacking developed powers of analysis, reasoning, or criticism a naive argument
To believe this unsubstantiated statement is extreemly naive. The sorce is vague and unsubstantiated. You can to choose to accept this as truth or look deeper into the possible motives of the person makeing the statement.
The facts are verifiable and just a google search away. Like others have already stated start with ASD……. I did. No goverment conspiracy, just a ponzi that sounds alot like zeek.
ASD went through the same death throws that zeek is now going through. If zeek already got you once don’t let it happen again, ASD’s down fall is the roadmap to zeek’s end.
Um… I really think that Behind MLM is being monitored by the leaders of Zeek, or at least by the ZTeambiz. The Zteambiz has removed the info about SEC acknowledged problems with shutting down Zeek from their official website.
And the email which is circulated around has the sentence “Robert Craddock, founder of Fun Club USA could not admit or deny the following information.”
I can assure you the email I received did NOT have this opening…..
So where did that come from….
Probably someone added it after reading Troy Dooly’s update.
So, why wasn’t the email re sent with that opening ‘disclaimer’? When and where was it added? Seems very underhanded practice
There has been a lot of underhandedness by various self – proclaimed lovers and leaders of their teams in an effort to lure people into the next best thing. Attempting to steal down lines from friends being the biggest one.
Quite sad really how the true colours have come through and disillusioned the trusting.
When dealing with a $600million PLUS fraud, underhanded is what you’d expect, isn’t it ???
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Re Jimmy’s earlier response to this, here’s the full quote from the court filing by Paul Burks:
The quote above is from page 2 of the court filing shown as “ZeekDoc20.pdf”, “DEFENDANT PAUL BURKS’ RESPONSE TO RECEIVER’S MOTION” which is available at:
https://sites.google.com/site/asdupdatesfiles/documents/other-asd-cases/12-cv-00519-zeek-rewards-sec-case
So YES, there is proof in Paul Burks own court filing that the SEC was “inside” Zeek prior to them filing their complaint in Federal court.
Ha, reading some of the comments over on Troy’s site is amusing. The strident self-delusion amazes me!
“Wahh, the critics were right, and I hate them! It’s all their fault!”
*shakes tiny, ineffectual fist*
“To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them…”
a horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!
then i can get the eff outta here!
@Red
That question was first answered almost a year ago, with that answer remaining consistent ever since.
When you pay out a daily ROI funded my member investments you’re never going to be legit, move on son.
and there goes Troy…whipping the ass of his mare
@jojangles
As I see it the only person involved in Zeek with less credibility with Paul Burks is Robert Craddock and his silly lawsuits.
…and only just, with Greg Caldwell not too far behind.
If the SEC didn’t make a public statement it didn’t happen. What bizarro world is this where the SEC are making statements to lawyers retained by parties threatening to sue them.
Hope I’m not violating any rules here and not sure if this means anything but just got this email this morning…Not sure who the Zeek Core Group is…?????
Anyway, I have wondered who the generals and lieutants are in this thing. I’m unable to tell who forwarded what to whom (I know you guys will figure out where it originated), but it appears that this came down from Dave to Todd and Robert and one other person who’s name/email address I deleted.
I also put asterisks in place of phone # for call as I don’t want to advertise for them….also probably nothing at all. But more than anything, I’m wondering who the “Zeek Core Group” is.
Could that be the name they’ve given to the new generation of Kool-Aid Drinkers or was this meant for distribution to a smaller group of Founders Club folks? I think it’s the New Zeek Version sheeplings. Would like to hear your thoughts…
Here’s the email
I beieve the “core group” are the top Ponzi players who have bandied together and are now attempting to get Zeek Rewards affiliates to fund their legal attempt to not have to pay back their Ponzi profits.
This is being done under the guise of “hay guyz if we don’t have to pay back our profits neither will you!
…what’s that? You didn’t cash anything out? HAY LOOK OVER THERE IT’S THE SEC ADMITTING STUFF!$! OMG GIVE US YOUR MONEY!11!”
Who sent you the email? If it’s so secret to a core group, how did you get it?
I never said it was secret. It was from my upline sponsor sent to his group.
THat’s my thinking,too. I just can’t wait to see who that Core Group is. For all the naysayers who think these guys/gals are out of the woods…far from it. The SEC investigation is only one layer.
The most interesting thing to watch unfold is when the Secret Service and law enforcement put the cuffs on those who are in the Founders Club/Core Group whatever you want to call them.
Can’t wait!!!!!!!
Note to K.Chang – I feel like I moved through all the stages of grief on this Zeek thing in about one day….except the anger phase. I can’t seem to let go of that one from time to time. But it’s only while I’m reading the blogs or emails. It’s definitely not consuming my life.
Perhpas it’s not so much anger as it is wanting to see justice done.
Absolutely agree with that….I hope they get hammered
Hope for the best and plan for the worst ZeekNoMore.
Up to this point, very few major promoters have been taken down in these scams.
Most of us are hoping that the authorities are finally coming to their senses and realizing that they need to routinely pursue more than just the owners/admins if they hope to make even the slightest dent in the online poniz/HYIP industry.
Why should they re-send the email with the disclaimer? Clearly Craddock did not admit nor deny. So, it is up to the readers to believe it or not. In fact they want the readers to believe it, that is why my upline still sent it to me despite the fact that there was a disclaimer inserted at that time. And when I checked the official website of Zteambiz, the information was removed too.
I know you are right. Realistically, maybe only a few will face criminal charges, but I will keep hoping… 🙂
Thankfully, the MLM World is one I can avoid, except for following this Zeek story. Since there will always be criminals to seek victims and victims who are all too willing to participate, this will go on and on and on.
yep…it’s BS. Have questioned one of the leaders as to where the SEC admission is of their 2 errors of judgement. There is no place to find an admission of this from SEC because it was ‘insider’ info given by the lawyers after their conversation with SEC.
Now…any professional/legit lawyer would be au fait with not disclosing such information that could be relayed to the public as it would be a ‘conflict of interest’ to the case.
Can that new report on Troy Dooly’s blog be accurate and if it is how long would something like that take unfold before this part takes place:
They already have decided on another law firm where our attorneys would write an opinion letter which is something we have been told should have been done a long time ago with Zeek and had not been done.
What this opinion letter will do is go to all regulatory agencies which will put them all on notice as to how this business, “Zeek Rewards 2.0″ operates.
Furthermore, if there should ever happen in the future like what happened with the SEC emergency injunction against Zeek, there will be a process that will have to be done first where they would have to go through a series of steps going through the law firm first that fully understands the business model.
In other words, what happened to Zeek Rewards on August 16 which was a major mistake by the SEC, will never happen again.
Thank you
IMHO it’s all a smoke screen. Got an email from a friend that had the info about the call and the SEC being clueless. I think the so called Zeek “leaders” are simply trying to set up the faithful band of lemmings and accomplices to go with them to the next Zeek-type program.
All they need is a little time to start or take part in the next big thing, get their followers to follow and the money rolls in so fast (as we saw in Zeek) they make a big quick pile of bucks before it falls as well.
They know exactly what they are doing. Using gullible people.
@Jangles
So jangles, I take it from the bitterness in your post that you are an irresponsible idiot also. Got suckered into Zeek right? And lost all your money?
Lose the attitude and learn from you mistakes and quit being a blind sheep.
Darrell, you missed the point. Get over it…
Many thanks to Norway, Chris, Chang, Oz and others for your insights.
After getting another update from the up team here in Florida, I’m scratching my head. Are these people trying to raise money for legal protection in case they become targets, or do they actually believe Zeek will be vindicated and they’ll be making big commissions again?
Supposedly the SEC has admitted to FunClub USA, LLC’s new but unnamed legal firm they may have jumped the gun. These unnamed lawyers told Robert Craddock that the SEC is looking for a way to back out of it.
The Florida group also advises not to listen to the talking heads because they are trying to “drive up controversy” to get more views on their websites.
Uplines/downlines can be very nasty, just received a nasty email full of name calling just because I declined to be a part of any company that doesn’t promote retail and have tangible products.
My days of ‘pie in the sky’ MLM’s is done. My belief that it takes hard work to make money is back and there’s no easy road to millions.
Thank you again to Oz for providing this site and helping everyone to open their eyes to the truths and to recognize scammers as they come along. Listen to your gut and if it says ‘red flags’ listen to it and don’t listen to anyone telling you otherwise.
The more they are try to be convincing the more I suspect untruths in their words.
And they’re not talking heads themselves? Or even “Craddock” guy is not a talking head trying to drive up controversy”?
What’s more controversial than “restart something government called biggest Ponzi (in terms of victims) ever in the US”?
Yeah, right, like SEC would just randomly drop hints on outside lawyers who hadn’t even taken on the case that “go ahead and sue us, our evidence sucks”.
If SNR Denton knows the case’s that weak, why didn’t they go ahead and sue SEC, eh? Why did they return the retainer?
The two stories don’t even fit together!
Think about it: they said only the “12 reps” will meet with the lawyers (if ever).
There happens to be 12 people who’s earning a million a month in Zeek announced at the June RCE. Coincidence?
The ONLY thing this lawsuit will do is delay the restitution process… if they EVER get into court… and they’ll get tossed out because they have no standing.
And the ONLY one who benefits from delaying the restitution are the top earners.
And any one who donates to this lawsuit is basically PAYING for the privilege of DELAYING their own restitution.
Zeek is dead, and it will never rise again.
The purpose of the fundraising is unclear, but they collect both money and downline information. The new money donation link leads to dreambiz.net/registration
Tood Disner –> Dave Kettner was part of the core network in Zeek, with more than 500,000 members in downline. They will first of all protect themselves and others in the same group. When it comes to HOW Zeek was run, the core network had probably similar rights as Paul Burks.
Robert Craddock? I believe he works for Greg Caldwell, for Caldwell’s company White Hat Solution or its’ division Direct Sales Compliance Management.
Caldwell is a Private Investigator and “general problem solver” with different ypes of security as his main field of expertise, with NWM/MLM businesses as typical clients.
Craddock has the same type of clients, and works mostly with IT/Network Security (since late 1990’ies or something). I’m not 100% sure about Craddock, whether he is self employed or employed by Caldwell.
I believe Craddock works for Caldwell, and Caldwell probably still works for Paul Burks AND the core network, directly or indirectly. Caldwell and Craddock were hired by RVG around February 2012.
I believe Craddock’s role as a top networker in Zeek was fake, that they created a position for him in the network to allow him to “blend in” with other affiliates. He also worked as an independant consultant for RVG/Paul Burks.
In my opinion, Dave Kettner isn’t very skilled when it comes to making up stories, but it’s possible his stories works better on a group of people than on individuals.
I have read a couple of his emails to people in downline, and he clearly has a lack of talent for factual details. I believe they have lost many supporters because of that.
White hat my left buttock.
The fact that such a lying, self-serving so-and-so can use the term “white hat” in his company name is irony of the first degree.
*blows raspberry at Caldwell*
*not saying from whence that raspberry is emerging*
Exactly. It seems so clear to all of us but it is just unbelieveably how many affiliates are delusional.
Case in point…Friday was the first time I’ve seen the guy who was our sponsor two levels up, really nice man, and since we are in the same business, our paths will be crossing frequently.
I again stressed to him the damage he’s doing by perpetuating this lawsuit promotion. He thinks he’s just keeping people informed.
I told him he may be opening himself up to lawsuits, etc. if he continues to do this. He feels confident that won’t happen because he said the #1 thing he’s gotten asked, “Hey, do you know of another opportunity we can get involved in?” W-H-A-T?????
This is shocking, esp in light of the fact that one of the people he told me said this was a guy who had put in $10,000 three weeks before the collapse, and the guy is no whacko, a very sound businessman, man with an excellent reputation in the community, etc.
So, I give up on trying to “inform” people. They’re on their own.
Kettner was promising 1.2% daily return on Zeek Rewards back in July 2011. Before then, he was involved in TVI Express pyramid, and its clones like Diamond Holidays and Club Seabreeze, and sells vitamin chews.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QDoGEP0fR-M/T9rAVQdaNmI/AAAAAAAAB30/Yx8wgM83aBo/s1600/100+In+Free+Bids+.png
Thanks again gentlemen, your rational explanations are convincing. I continue to be amazed these top people, the “core network”, are still perpetuating this hoax.
It does make sense they’re trying to delay the restitution process. But persuading their downlines to contribute to a delay is simply mind boggling.
A friend who had over 3000 affiliates in his downline told me he was making over $4,000 a day. I think and hope he believed the money was coming from the penny auctions and not the new members.
But he repeats every excuse,like the (SEC didn’t understand the business model. And every week he says, Zeek will be back in business in just a few more days.
Do guys like him have something to worry about? I can’t believe he hasn’t seen the light yet.
littleroundman,
Paul didn’t seem the type to be a scammer. Have you seen his meek house? Have you seen the way he meekley dresses? And his wife as been very ill. And what about his age, and the way he carries himself? It never appeared to me that he was the type to scam, lie, take the money and run.
Then I heard that he was distraught over getting s speeding ticket recently. Distraught over a speeding ticket?
Apparently Paul Burks is a kind of soul that won’t battle the big guns. That’s a theory anyway, just a possibility.
His means of living sure doesn’t add up to the type of guys who scams, then takes the money and runs. Point is ultimately, WHO REALLY KNOWS?
If he made more than he put in, he’s gonna see a clawback. The real kind (like Bernard Ponzi’s trustee Irving Piccard, who clawed back BILLIONS of dollars), not the wishy-washy misuse as by Dawn.
The problem here is you’re mixing up a fact and an opinion.
It is true that Burks lived rather humbly. However, using that as evidence that he doesn’t “seem” a scammer is bad logic.
Nobody believed Madoff was a Ponzi schemer either. He was head of NASDAQ for a while! He pioneered electronic trading! He had been in business for most of his life!
This is hearsay. Where did it came from? The same upline who told you Zeek is not a scam? Or did it came from Craddock?
Or Burks is playing part of a meek businessman shamed on the advice of his attorney, whose record indicates he’s one of the best attorneys in NC.
Or Burks was bamboozled by Darryl Douglas and Dawn Wright-Olivares into turning the whole thing into a Ponzi, and he’s taking the fall for the other two, and is now cooperating with the SEC and other Feds to make sure EVERYBODY goes down with him.
There are PLENTY of theories that makes as much, if not more sense than “Burks is innocent but meek old man don’t wanna fight the evil government.”
How “recently” was this any way?
You did read the part that his lawyer claimed he had a “period of cooperation(with the SEC)” before August 17th, 2012, right?
The SEC knew about this scam for a while. He can’t hide.
Deal with FACTS first, then extrapolate based on facts.
“Presumed innocence” is moot when defendent already plead no contest.
@Red,
You have to understand one simple point, con artists who seem shady and disreputable either aren’t doing their job or will soon be looking for a new one.
It’s less an issue of hiding how much of a dirt bag you are than highlighting the ways you aren’t a dirt bag. It’s sorta like holding in your beer gut when a pretty girl walks by, only for money.
I’m sure Paul has many fine qualities but he also lacks the willingness to not run a ponzi scheme. He’d been using his slow southern charm to run just below the radar pyramid schemes for better than 14 years before Zeek Rewards launched him into the spotlight.
I don’t think he was ever comfortable being on the big stage. Spotlights bring attention and he knew sooner or later the wrong kind of people would be looking at him.
He started cooperating with the SEC well before the websites went dark, what that tells me is that he had far fewer illusions than many of his loyal followers. Cutting a deal at lightning speed only seems to confirm that.
@Jim
No. Craddock and friends just made it up, that’s why they removed it shortly after initial publication.
Turns out making up porkies about the SEC isn’t a smart idea. Whodathunkit?
I am new here, so sorry if I do not follow the rules. The big question I have is based on your post. I have heard it in other places (forums). Could the Soverign citzen movment be the “International ponzi” Group?
If this is correct, the FBI has has said they are a domestic Torrorist group. Do we really want to be involved with some group who is anit-america and anti-world?
@Red
Having a “meek house”, your “means of living” or worrying about speeding tickets doesn’t define you as a scammer.
Telling people your company pays out a daily ROI from penny auction profits when it’s just you sitting in an office fudging the figures up each day from newly invested member money does.
Why enter a battle you can’t win. There is no justfication for being at the helm of a $600M Ponzi scheme.
@therondo
Ah, no. And for more than the two reasons I’ll give you.
First off there isn’t “A” international ponzi ring, more like a number of small groups that sometimes join the same scheme but usually are running their own games competing for the same money.
With all due apologies to Mr. Dooly, anyone who says otherwise is being rather fanciful.
And sovereign citizens are even worse at working with each other. Their “gurus” all want to be the one unquestioned leader but their dogma is built on the notion that each and every person is their own sovereign.
A small yet not insignificant percentage of them are violent lunatics but by and large they have a hard time organizing, well near anything.
From time to time I check in on “President” Tim Turner’s Republic for the united States just for comic relief. I assure you that anyone claiming to have restored the “de jure” United States but who can not maintain an organization in the “Republic of Texas” isn’t worth his weight in UCC-1 liens.
I did not ask for an attack. I m only aksing a question based on the facts. If you would like for me to provide them I shall. But dont attack me, I dont know you and would not like to respond in kind. Thank you. 🙂
(Ozedit: no idea what publishing links to information on the Sovereign citizens movement without any specific commentary or reference was supposed to achieve, links removed)
So, There is “no” International Ponzi schme’s?
http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/fraud#419
What a sheltered world you live in! Sorry, but i had to add that in. I really felt insulted for just making a comment on a post. I have more information that I collected and would share as long as no one would attack me over it.
Sorry but any person who was involved with zeek or ASD is someone that was scammed! But I was also a zeek supporter for about 3 days until I realized that 2 + 2 did not equal 1,000,000.00
That link shows direct persons related to ASD who are also involved in Zeek. If you would, like tomorrow I can provide you a more detailed investigation of those persons as well as there link to the Fun Club USA.
By all means do that, so long as it’s related to Zeek Rewards.
One was a Wikipedia link however, which had nothing to do with ASD, ZR or Fun Club USA. No reference or commentary was provided accompanying the links.
If you want to publish links incorporate them into the discussion and explain why you’re publishing them.
Doubtful. They appear to be localised to the US. The term “international Ponzi group” refers to players operating in a co-ordinated effort from multiple international locations. Not just a bunch of people based outside of the US.
No doubt there are Ponzi groups (long-time ringleaders with downlines) that jump from Ponzi to Ponzi. Usually they make a bit of money and then jump onto the next horse, wash rinse and repeat.
What seems to have happened with Zeek (and ASD) is that a few of them made too much virtual Ponzi profits to walk away from. Now for whatever reason they seem to be under the impression that legally they can keep ZR going.
Of course they’re not confident enough to fund it with their own money, so they’re appealing to their downlines to cough up. Money makes people believe stupid things…
@therondo
I’m not sure what you took in my post as an “attack” but I am sorry if you took it as one.
I am aware of sovereign citizens who were involved in ASD, more than one in fact. Curtis Richmond is the one who best springs to mind, he filed some sovereign gibberish motions with the court and charged people only a modest sum for blank copies of his complaint so they could file them too.
The Judge dismissed them en mass but Curtis doesn’t give refunds.
Scams are coin of the realm in sovereign circles. The “gurus” usually ask for money to teach you the magic words which make you immune to courts of law only it never works out that way.
Gullible and sometimes desperate people fork over hard earned money for nothing more than mythology. And when the magic doesn’t work they usually blame themselves for not performing the ritual correctly.
I’m not sure how much interest there is in this room for a more detailed discussion of sovereigns and their scams, but there is a message board called Quatloos which is fascinated by them.
That being said I am very interested in any information you care to share about sovereigns involved with Zeek. And again, sorry if my previous post came across the wrong way.
You can’t “turn” a business into a Ponzi unless you’re actually running it.
The only people capable of “turning” Zeek into a Ponzi are the people who decided its business model, and that would be Paul Burks, Dawn Wright-Olivares, and Darryl Douglas.
Unless Troy want to explain how someone he posed photo with cheek to cheek is member of Intl Ponzi Ring, I’d say his theory needs… further refinement.
Thus, there is no “Intl Ponzi Ring”.
Furthermore, sovereign citizen folks couldn’t care less about the government… UNTIL they did something to rip people off. Then their victims went to the gov, then it’s “I have rights and government is trampling on them!” (trans: my rights are what I say they are, none of “your” laws applies to me!)
From what I can tell on Troy’s videos, he thinks there is an international Ponzi ring, and that there would be RICO charges coming soon, based on a single fact – that the SEC’s counterpart in Canada (the CSA) was involved in the Zeek takedown.
This was addressed previously as follows:
In reply:
Denial is an incredibly powerful force.
Paul Burks is clearly a conman himself. They come in all shapes and sizes, and will usually use their own style rather than following a “Conmen’s 101” recipe.
I have had ONE indirect dialogue with Paul Burks through Troy Dooly, on a topic where Troy needed assistance from Paul Burks to answer some questions, and Paul Burks clearly tried to mislead me in different ways. He used methods worthy an experienced conman.
There isn’t much doubt about it. He’s clearly trained in misleading people, and it’s also possible to recognize known conman methods from time to time. It’s possible to identify changes in strategy during the dialogue, when one strategy fails he immediately comes up with another. That requires experience far beyond normal business experience.
The diaølogue happened around July 27th or 28th, and was about the tax issue for 2011 and the RPP / “Cash available”. He clearly used different methods trying to mislead me, so the dialogue was very confusing.
The dialogue can be found in another thread, but it’s clearly confusing and not worth reading unless you’re interested in analysing methods for misleading people. I was focusing on the tax issue itself, not the methods.
Paul Burks is a tough opponent rather than a meek business man. He is clearly skilled in misleading people, with years or decades of practice. And he clearly knows what he’s doing.
There still could be RICO charges… for the top shills.
A Ponzi is a lie. They say they work a certain way, but behind the scenes they do something else, often, nothing at all. It’s fraud on multiple levels.
A business can BECOME a Ponzi… but only if the leader choose to deceive the public and lie.
Charles Ponzi claimed to arbitrage International Reply Coupons. He did not do so.
Bernard Madoff claimed to manage 100+ billion dollars for the riches people in the world for no fee… as long as his name doesn’t appear anywhere. He didn’t invest or manage, but sent fake statements to everybody claiming he did.
Only someone IN CHARGE of the business can make the FUNDAMENTAL DECISION to lie to the public about how the business actually operate (or not operate at all). Thus, the external influence theory makes no sense at all.
Furthermore, how does external influence benefit? Ponzi scheme is fraud that doesn’t move money much. By paying out more than they should, the net balance can only increase if they bring in more new people who put in money than they pay out.
The only way for “external Ponzi ring” to benefit is for them to join very early and take out money early.
In other words, Troy’s theory only works if you count all the ex-ASD as part of a conspiracy to restart ASD by convincing Burks to run ZeekRewards as a Ponzi just like ASD. It ain’t international.
I have pointed out that Paul Burks is an experienced con artist himself in another comment, currently waiting to be moderated. That impression derives from an indirect dialogue with Paul Burks himself, through Troy Dooly as a middleman, but on a topic where Troy needed assistance to handle the questions.
But to make Zeek work as a Ponzi scheme, he needed lots of assistance from experienced Ponzi riders, from people much more qualified than his own team. So I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the former ASD-players are partners rather than participants.
There’s little doubt about Paul Burks being experienced. I’m experienced myself, e.g. in how to detect when other sales people tries to mislead me.
Burks clearly knows how to handle a situation and mislead people, and he’s also able to rapidly change or improve his own strategies when it’s needed, and that requires years of experience to master.
I have published a comment on Troy Dooly’s website, where I’m pointing out his lack of “quality checking” before publishing materials that potentially can be misleading to the audience.
He has a long history of publishing misleading articles and comments about ZeekRewards, and he continues to use the same strategy after the shutdown.
He will usually try to cover his ass by publishing some opposite info, e.g. both “Good news” and a statement about “Zeek is dead”.
In my next post there, I’m asking Robert Craddock to make comments himself rather than hiding behind Troy Dooly, to avoid more misleading information.
I am not familiar with Troy’s track record since I have only been following this site, his and several other of the contributors here, since the Zeek shutdown in mid August.
Having followed both sides, pro and con, it has become very clear to me that Troy’s articles have no real foundation in fact when it comes to the really important bottom lines.
Also – M-Norway, excellent response on Troy’s site, BTW.
The point that stands out to me through all of my reading of the blogs over the past few weeks is that Troy’s articles seem to be knee-jerk reactions to something, with very little foundation. On the other hand, the “skeptic sites” basis is factual, of course, sprinkled with opinions and comments, of course. But for someone like me who is trying to sort out this mess – Give me facts!!!
As an ex-affiliate, that’s what I want for the friends who are affected by this. Troy does not get the benefit of the doubt as far as I’m concerned. He’s a so-called professional, who should know that you don’t publish a copy of an e-mail of someone else and then publish it with no huge disclaimer that it’s totally hearsay. side.
That’s exactly what my upline people are doing when forwarding this garbage to “our team”…hiding behing the lame excuse that they are trying to keep people informed. No….keeping people informed is present both sides, but present neither until you are sure of the facts.
Heck, even I knew that yesterday when I was careful to edit excerpts of an email I got, because I knew it was hearsay, and worse, hearsay based upon lies. It gets no worse than that.
Troy seems to think that he’s been responsible because the comment section finally gets around to presenting the “other side.” What about the folks who only watch the videa or read the main points in the article, thinking those wild accusations are fact?
You all say he has a track record for this behavior. If indeed that’s true, I can’t imagine how the guy has the supposed great reputation he has.
At this point, I don’t care except I do know that people listen to him…two of my friends signed up in Zeek because of his cheerleading. I didn’t even know who Troy was till my friend told me.
I would speculate that 99% of people won’t get in and dig around like I did to try to get answers. They are just going to continue following the Pied (Sp?) Piper off the cliff. Thankfully I’m not on that path. And honestly, I’m pretty much over worrying about anyone except myself and the few close friends I got into this.
When I first started visiting this site, I thought, geez Louise, guys, give Troy a break! Now I see what the fuss was all about.
And sometimes we vent when we hear stuff like this (from the “Affiliates United” FB page this morning by a Rob VanPelt):
It appears the admin/moderator on that FB page was having a bit of a meltdown this morning, likely because of the amount of legitimate concerns being expressed after their Saturday update. The above quote was in response to the admin/moderator’s little pity party.
Personally, if I were in a jam and needed someone I could depend on I’d feel much more confident with 10 Home Depot associates on my side than 100 delusional Zeekheads in my corner!!
Yesterday in comment 173 I posted copy of email from my upline about a conference call that was going to be done today (Mon 9/10), and that email was addressed to the Zeek Core Group. I raised the question, who is the Zeek Core Group?
At first I thought maybe they were referring to those who donated or were following the TeamBiz site, but after thinking it through and reading Oz’s comment later, it was apparent the Core Group is the little Founders Club, ie the 12 who are the Plaintiffs in the suit against the SEC, being represented by the Law firm of Who The Heck Knows Who we Are, Esq.
Anyway, guess we know now who the Core Group is. Just opened my email this morning from my upline and it’s an email from Todd Disner saying, ooops, I sent the email to the entire group by mistake. I only meant it for my partners in crime. (Paraphrased of course).
Well, you read it…you decide… here it is.
You know, the so-called “leaders” are worse than the corporate heads. People like Burks and his 2 sidekicks ran the scam but those at the top that made a killing and had the big downlines have a criminal mentality.
They know how to participate in this type of scam, get rich and probably dodge prosecution knowing all along they are stealing with a Ponzi program.
As some of you have so well stated, I hope the government goes after them from the highest earner down for a while seizing whatever cash and assets they can and placing liens and judgements on what they bought with the stolen funds.
They must know this is potentially coming and that is the reason to get others to chip in for some pricey lawyers. Using other people again.
Jim, in total agreement with you. All I can say is I’m beginning to see how incompetent they really are. As an ex-affiliate, I know I was very frustrated with the lack of news coming from the corporate level as to how to do this and that. All updates were either from Todd or Dave.
Towards the end, my frustration was turning to “something ain’t right here”, and then the collapse.
Hopefully they will get more desperate and make more mistakes, like sending out confidential emails enmasse, enough mistakes that they will hang themselves.
Seriously, though, these guys are unbelieveably incompetent. Which is why I don’t get how they’ve been able to evade the law this long. Maybe cause the other schemes fell below the radar of the general public’s scrutiny because they were on a relatively small scale.
Whether they like it or not, because of the sheer size of the Zeek Ponzi, it’s getting public scrutiny and no doubt way more Secret Service scrutiny.
Side note – Todd needs to proofread and be careful before hitting the “send” button. Another Todd, Congressman Todd Weiner, made the same mistake and it was his undoing. 🙂
Correction – it was Anthony Weiner…. not Todd Weiner… same principle, though. Don’t hit “send” till you are sure. All of us have done it, of course.
ZeekNoMore, I think they are that sloppy because they have no fear of consequences. A few years ago there was this superphone coming out and everyone was foaming at the mouth to jump into the program.
I called the North Carolina AG office and asked about it when the complaints were starting to come in. This staff person said flat out that there were so many MLM type programs out there and starting up every day that they simply did not have a fraction of the resources they need to keep up. That has to be the way it is in most states.
That’s why the government needs to make a serious example out of these new schemes like Zeek. Fear or arrest and loss of money is the only thing that could slow these things down to any great extent.
I have a question. I have posted maybe a dozen times on the various Zeek discussions and wanted to see how to use a quote from another post when I want to reference it and reply. It’s in Green background. Do I simply click on quote? Thanks for the help.
I highly doubt that Disner’s “errant” email was a mistake. More like an intentional leak to maintain momentum.
I will acknowledge that I have nothing to base that opinion on other than Disner’s past record and my own healthy skepticism.
Yes, it’s called consequences. As the mother of two adult children, and three grandchildren, it’s a necessary lesson to learn in life. If you don’t discipline, you get brats who do whatever they want, when they want. These “brats” get away with it because there are no consequences.
As to the quote, being new I had to ask the same thing a few weeks ago. First, highlight the material you want to quote, then click on “quote” and it magically appears in the text box. 🙂
Have a look at the following. Especially the symptoms. When you hear all the phony edification on opportunity calls it just fits right in.
The part about no empathy is what is so disturbing because they have no remorse for who they screw, such as the Zeek top earners. I call them “Business Scam Narcissists”.
Thanks!!!! You-Da-Man!!!
“They” weren’t incompetent at all.
In fact, on the contrary.
“They” collectively managed to trick a million plus people into giving them over $600million for something which never existed in the first place.
Sounds pretty competent to me.
What’s more, until people accept the fact Zeek was a fraud from the start, then “they will continue to be able to find more victims for their fraud/s.
Actually, I may be one of the few females who post here, so technically I’m “Da Woman” or “Da-Grandma”. 🙂
Oops!!!! Sorry. By the way, I really do like and appreciate intelligent women. They’re so much more interesting. Please keep posting.
The most serious point is his publishing of the NMBJ review in February or March 2012, with information he clearly should have known was misleading.
NMBJ = Network Marketing Business Journal, published by Keith Laggos. The review was a marketing attempt by Zeek, trying to “outweight” negative information.
It was probably written by Dawn in most parts, and Zeek paid for it by ordering $100,000 worth of copies of NMBJ (according to Dawn/rumours).
Troy published it as an article and a video, quoting NMBJ directly, but without adding his own knowledge about how misleading some of the information was.
I have later found that article/video on several Zeek affiliate sites (among other misleading articles/videos from Troy Dooly), used as an important marketing tool to convince people about the legitimacy of ZeekRewards.
We all know by now that Keith Laggos also had a role as an affiliate himself, but Troy failed to reveal information about that.
I have considered Troy’s responsibility as a publisher to be the main issue here. The material was clearly misleading when it was published, not because of the content it had but because of the missing information (e.g. doing a quality check, and publishing it in the same article/video).
“Quality check” means doing a check of the content itself, rather than checking the sources, and checking it for misleading information (e.g. fake customers) before publishing. Troy fails miserably on that point.
“QUALITY CHECK”
I have done some kind of a quality check here, “checking different sources”:
* I saw the review when it was published, and I have also made comments about the content.
* I have read comments on MlmHelpDesk, from people who were misled by it by Zeek affiliates.
* I have googled and found affiliate websites where the material has been used in a misleading way.
Normally we are expected to do SOME kind of quality check, and checking different sources with different viewpoints is ONE of the methods that can be used. Checking a person’s status or reputation is NOT a very good method if it isn’t combined with more qualified methods.
As an example, I would have improved the quality of this comment if I had linked to the sources, but I will probably have to spend around one hour finding them. And you asked for information rather than “proof” and sources.
OTHER ISSUES:
I have a long list in memory for where he has acted misleading in articles, videos or comments.
A couple of examples, from my own experience:
* Insisting on “Unique bid auction niche” for ZeekRewards and other penny auction MLM. In normal business logic we should usually define a company from its’ core. The penny auctions was only a minor part of Zeek, not the core itself. The core was the network part and the “compounder”, with all the money coming in from affiliates.
* The focus on “Gaming theory” and “Gaming addiction theories”, to explain why the penny auction was able to support payouts to a huge number of affiliates. The theories becomes meaningless when a company doesn’t have much customers that can get addicted. Normal logics would have worked better than theories, but he ignored normal logics when I tried to explain it to him.
Since Zeek already has collapsed / been shut down, it’s easy to establish that his theories were misleading when he published them in articles, videos and/or comments. He is no longer covered by the uncertainty about it, that his theories COULD have been meaningful.
*******
This time I have separated different actions from each other. It means I have ignored his attempts to cover his ass by publishing statements pointing in other directions. I have only focused on whether or not the published material is misleading, and whether or not it has been used by others to mislead people.
It means I have partly analysed Troy’s strategy in previous comments, where he frees himself for responsibility by showing that he has covered his ass in some way or another, like in quoting other sources (e.g. using NMBJ as a source).
Most publishers will do MORE than that when it comes to verifying material before publishing, so his strategy doesn’t really cover his ass.
This type of analytical breakdown is way out of my field of expertise, so I’m always appreciative of those of you who have that ability because many times in the past few weeks I’ve seen where my knee-jerk, emotional response to things has been flawed and frankly, I enjoy being proven wrong if I learned something in the process.
The main point I’m drawing from your response is anyone who is in Troy’s position has the tools, the background and experience to conduct an analysis of biz models, etc…in fact, it’s what he’s supposed to do.
Furthermore, when he doesn’t utilize those tools, it’s a great disservice to folks who rely on him. It’s a great responsibility. Sadly, responsibility isn’t always dealt with responsibly.
LOL, as if you need to pay an outside company to set up a “support” forum.
Basically, he turned himself into the equivalent of ‘tabloid news’ in the US, publishing things like ‘Elvis is an alien’, ‘(insert celebrity name) on deathbed due to drug habit’ and so on.
When questioned, they conveniently point at some other source, and claim “I just printed what he said.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Enquirer
Wow, that about sums it up. Well said. And according to that, Troy Dooly has then clearly been a waffling, floundering, obvious failure in regards to Zeek Rewards.
Just playing devil’s advocate here…
Is it not possible that Troy Dooly is just “a guy with a blog” to whom a sizable number of people give an unwarranted amount of credibility or authority? And if people grant him that authority, is that his fault?
I’ve seen this happen in quite a number of industries. If you look at the Bio page on his site, he claims to be an “influencer” but not an “expert”. He says:
None of those aforementioned things indicate that he claims to offer unbiased analysis or expert opinions. He is a guy with his own perspective and set of experiences that throws stuff on the wall as a “publisher”.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not necessarily trying to defend Troy. His publishing style, communications skills, and incoherent arguments drive me insane. But sometimes I wonder how much of his apparent influence over certain people is the result of his own efforts vs poor decision making on theirs?
I had never heard of Troy prior to this whole Zeek saga. But from the moment I started reading/viewing his stuff, my impression was much more along the lines of “crackpot” than “expert”.
Trying to be fairly kind…I don’t think MLM overall attracts the cream of the crop in the first place.
As reported by Jordan Maglich (attorney/expert on Ponzi schemes and white collar crimes/contributor to Forbes magazine):
http://www.ponzitracker.com/main/2012/9/10/sec-admissions-of-weakness-in-zeek-case-inaccurate-tactics-a.html
It’s a combination of both factors. Many of the people who felt mislead by him were actually mislead by their upline, with Troy Dooly as an additional tool to convince them — by linking to some of his videos from other websites.
Troy has tried to mislead me several times, but now it’s better to put a stop to it rather than continue to accept it. For me, his role as an “influencer” is more like a bad habit than something useful.
Mr. Dooly thinks of himself as neutral even though he’s actually pro-Zeek, repeatedly endorsed Zeek as “honest people”. However, his words can be interpreted by people seeking confirmation as endorsements.
It’s a lot like playing politics: each side will seek the message they’re looking for in Dooly’s words. However, most of his words are playing toward the “affiliates”, who are looking for approval / endorsement, not dismissal / condemnation.
Mr. Dooly’s problem is he got a bit too close to the players, and is no longer an objective observer that he thinks he is.
His involvement with Dawn, Burks, and later Caldwell (and by extension, Robert Craddock) lead him to continue his pro-Zeek stance even AFTER SEC shut Zeek down where he offered his own theories like “Intl Ponzi Ring” with little proof to back them up, and all the theories basically fits his own stance (i.e. Zeek… was a fine company.)
It takes NO imagination to say that SEC is NOT happy with the amount of rumors flying around out there, spread by Craddock / Kettner, and further reprinted by Troy Dooly and spread by desperate affiliate spammers hoping for support. (At least three attempts to spam my hubs were observed, always presented as “please comment, here’s the link”)
Jordan Maglich has access to SEC, and he’s a lawyer, so you have to take his written words with a grain of salt. When he wrote “disagree”, “false”, what he probably meant was SEC guy read the sort of sh__ wrote about them by Craddock and Kettner, and was either angry, or act bemused, as in “so that’s the sort of sh__ they’re writing about us, hmmm?”
Don’t forget the first real warning sign that we saw that proved dishonestly from Zeek / Paul Burks – the non-existent OFAC sanctions.
From that point forward, Troy Dooly should have “trusted but verify” the data coming from Zeek. The fact that he accepted the lame non-answer from Zeek on the OFAC sanctions for months, and then eventually just capitulated and said “I don’t know what that was about” shows that he is NOT neutral and NOT objective.
There were many signs before the OFAC sanctions that the information Zeek was telling the public was not representative of the truth. But the OFAC sanctions was the first concrete evidence that should have led Troy down a different path of analysis.
All the information afterwards (such as bank account closures, credit card processing woes, etc.) could have been vetted by Troy with the proper objective viewpoint if he assumed they could also be lies like the OFAC sanctions were lies.
Not the least of which was that Zeek was able to pay 1% or 1.5% per DAY ROI.
I mean, c’mon now, what self respecting MLM guru could get past any program he/she is reviewing offering ANY percentage per DAY ROI without choking on his/her cornflakes ??
Talk about Mr Dooly ignoring the elephant in the room.
Forget about all the minutia, THAT’S where the problem always was
That, and one other thing.
I’ll never forget the first “in depth” conversation I had with a Zeek Affiliate. A nice, meek fellow who was genuine in his excitement and belief in the “opportunity”.
I’d read up on the scheme by the time we met, and I guardedly listened to his pitch. After the usual “this is different”, “you don’t have to recruit”, “so and so is making $XXXX, he showed us his check”, “I’m up to $XXXX and I’ve only been in for two months”, I slipped in a question.
I said “But what do you do?”.
Insert the sound of Crickets here.
The fellow looked at me like I’d asked the question in a foreign language. So I asked again, and helped him this time. I said “What do you DO? Don’t you have to place an ad, give some stuff away? You know, what do you do to earn this money?”.
He replied “Oh, well yeah, but they have a service that you can pay them to place your ad each day for you. And I’m busy and kind of forgetful so that was perfect for me. And the bids we give away, we can let the company give them away for us.”
I told him “Oh, I understand”. And I did, in an even broader sense than before our little chat.
To add to litteroundman’s thought, “Zeek was able to pay people 1% or 1.5% per DAY ROI., FOR DOING NOTHING”.
THAT’S where the problem always was.
And that’s why the Zeekers want Zeek to come back. They were “making money” for doing nothing and want the big payout.
My question is, what are Craddock & friends going to say after their lies about the SEC admitting they “made a mistake” and are “trying to find a way to back out” of the investigation are shown to not come to fruition?
After time goes on and the receiver is still investigating and sorting things out, they’ll eventually have to come up with a new lie to explain why the SEC hasn’t dropped the case and let Zeek go back into business.
They’ll have to say something to keep the gullible idiots to keep pouring money into their “legal fund.” It’s not like they can use the constant mantra of “growing pains” like Zeek management & faithful lackeys always did.
I keep thinking we have the makings of a great country music song here. Something along the lines of “My Cash Cow Up and Died”.
Troy admited the bids were not used in the auctions in a comment on his site. That alone proves the business model is a Ponzi if true.
They will say it is all the faults of affiliates and critics who kept calling the SEC and pushed them (the SEC) to admit publically about their wrong doing. SEC must save their face, so they are now forced to fight until the end and cannot back down now.
So, folks thanks a lot for not trusting us, and calling the SEC to get verification, now we have to fight even a harder battle now. But we stilll can do it because we still have many of you out there who are truly blieve in us and who truly want to protect this business.
Something along that line will be pulished soon, and those who choose to believe will always believe no matter what excuse Craddock and his gang come up with.
@lane
What are you talking about, the complaint clearly states 0.25% of the bids given away (the bids purchased by affiliates) were actually used.
I think you’re confusing consuming with purchasing. “Self-consuming” = affiliates purchasing the bids, as opposed to retail sales to genuine customers.
@Oz
That second paragraph was from Troy not me. I didn’t block quote, sorry. He was admitting that the bids were not used.
Well Troy needs to go back and read the SEC complaint again then.
Even now I don’t see how Zeekers can claim with a straight face that Zeek Rewards wasn’t an investment when they were putting money in, doing nothing (by paying someone else to post their daily ad and give bids to customers) and expected monetary returns on the money they put in.
This is what the SEC was talking about when alleging (true allegations, as it turns out) that Zeek was selling unregistered securities (investments).
Oh but the SEC got the number of affiliates and the amount of Zeek’s various bank accounts wrong. They couldn’t possibly be right about the percentage of bids being used.
I heard they also used slightly off-white paper to print the complaint at one point too.
QUICK BURN THE COURTHOUSE TO THE GROUND DOWN WITH THE SEC$!!%!55111
I looked at the bidding and saw about one third of the items on the screen that were bid way over their retail value. Therefore, it was obvious there was some fake auto-bidding going on to give the illusion of the affiliates money being spent as they promised they would.
One concept I have not seen anyone talk about at all is what do the Zeek internal records have (I hope the SEC reports this)as to the actual amount of product that was bought, paid for and delivered from the auction site? I’m sure those numbers are a joke and would clearly expose the other half of this scam.
If the SEC didn’t nail Paul Burks, you wonder if someone on the inside may have done some whistle blowing if the scheme grew larger?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/sep/11/irs-pays-104-million-whistleblower/
Hi Oz,
In the ASD case, some of the cheerleaders argued that:
* ASD could not be a Ponzi scheme so long as it has as little as $1 in external revenue.
* That ASD could not be a Ponzi scheme because the world’s birth rate exceeded the death rate.
* That the presiding judge was operating a “Kangaroo Court” and that the chief judge in the same district also was operating a “Kangaroo Court.”
* That the prosecutors admitted secretly that ASD was not a Ponzi scheme and were clinging to the case in a bid to save face.
* One ASD story mainstay recently has argued that his arrest must be invalidated because his name appeared in ALL CAPS in court citations.
PPBlog
New Zeek 2.0 The reciever wont be able to confiscate any payouts from the two third affiliates from outside the U.S.A. Which does not matter because the sec told craddock that they cant find any securities and or one lonely victim and might of improperly closed zeek.
This will change the mlm industry for ever and zeek will come back better than ever blah blah blah blah nonsense.
I think I’ll call that “martyrdom defense”, a close relative to the “heretic defense”.
In “heretic defense”, they insinuate that they look like a scam, but they are actually the exception, and there were a lot of “heretics” that turned out to be right.
In “martyrdom defense”, they they blame the affiliates for not trusting them (which was the theme all along, from the toilet-paper to the hamburger analogies) and they are not a scam despite everybody says they are (but they’re really an exception), and of course, “a lot of heretics turned out to be right”. 🙂
Exactly. Everybody saves money by cutting out the middleman. Why can’t Zeek go straight to AdSmartz or whatever to post the ads directly, and save MILLIONS a month?
In fact, Jimmy and I and others have long pointed out that you can hire people in say, Philippines to post ads for pennies a day. This ad posting thing is busywork and a disguise. It’s OBVIOUS to someone who’s outside, NOT swept up by the emotions, to see through this non-sense.
To use Daniel Kahneman’s explanation, victims are afflicted with “attribute substitution”. Your mind has halves: an intuitive side, and a logical/reflective side. Intuitive side makes snap decisions, based mostly on emotion, but some logic based on prrior knowledge.
The logical side is mostly logic, but requires knowledge to extrapolate decisions. When forced to make a quick decision, a victim can be “lead” to make decision with the intuitive side INSTEAD of the logical side, and the decision would be WRONG, because the mind solved the wrong problem, that sounds CLOSE to the problem that should be solved, but really isn’t.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/09/cognitive-bias-attribute-substitution.html
This is a favorite claim of the “sovereign citizen” movement. Most courts put the defendants’ names in all caps, and somehow the sovereigns claim that this means court papers don’t apply to them because they don’t spell their names in all caps.
I don’t remember exactly what the reasoning is, but it’s just another (unsuccessful) dodge they try to use to get out of trouble.
Would Zeek have been “legal”…if?
1. there were real customers
2. the daily payout was not manually manipulated
3. the daily payout was based on bid consumption only
The reason for this question is that if these are the only major things necessary for an MLM penny auction to be legal, then there will be a second iteration of Zeek.
Different owners, different logos….but same players.
IMO, it could possibly still run into some issues with being considered an unregistered security.
Any legal/legit version of a penny auction MLM will definitely NOT have the same players. The ponzi/HYIP crowd has no interest in real business.
A legit penny auction MLM would require affiliates to actually acquire real retail customers that paid for and used their own bids.
As Oz has pointed out in his reviews on various auctions, so far we haven’t seen one that has succeeded on it’s own merits.
Although currently lucrative and relatively popular, penny auctions are still a niche product that will be hard for most affiliates to find customers for.
I’ll guess that any penny auction structured “legally” will probably be along the same lines as many technology MLMs like ACN, Vitel, etc. requiring a monthly membership fee where in the end most of the commissions earned come from recruiting bonuses instead of retail sales.
Like many MLMs, people will make more money selling the dream instead of the product.
Well, Troy Dooly has posted his thoughts on Jordan Maglich’s article.
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/breaking-zeek-rewards-news-sec-admissions-of-weakness-in-zeek-case-inaccurate-tactics-and-motivations-of-zeek-victim-group-questioned/
if there were real customers, what do they need you (and your money) for?
Possibly the same reason that many companies run affiliate programs.
Just another avenue for customer acquisition.
Actually, he didn’t. He just reposted it.
So they only need you (and your WORK or webspace for ads), not your money.
In other words, “kinda” like Bidify Mk. II.
Well, traditional affiliate programs don’t need your money.
Naturally, MLMs also theoretically want their reps to believe in and use the products.
For whatever reason, I like the idea of MLM.
Unfortunately, I hate the reality of most MLMs.
I just glossed over the recent Bidify changes, but if new reps aren’t part of that old Ponzi Points Pool and are just paid on sales and, unfortunately, monthly membership costs, then yes.
LOL, by post, I’m referring to the video.
Troy often does not write out his thoughts in his initial posts.
Instead, he makes us view those videos.
I mean I have to *watch* the video? (Argh!) 😉
Chris Bailey and Norway, I have to say your posts to Troy Dooly are clear, concise and very well written. Although he claims he’s not an expert at anything, he’s quite expert and dodging and spinning. I picture him with him hands over his ears saying, I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you 🙂
Even though I’ve been exposed second hand to MLM and ponzi schemes and any number of other online “businesses” for over 20 years, this Zeek thing is amazing and so appalling. It’s so sad and now pathetic that people actually believe it can come back, with their imaginary points still intact, or there will be Zeek 2.
The scam within a scam to get the sheeple to pay for a lawyer to help the the top 12 keep THEIR (sheeples) money. Yes, please I’d love to give you some money to help you screw me…again. Please just give me my beloved points back.
In case some of you read this blog…People would you walk into a lawyers office and give him money without a signed contract to represent you? So you are willing to give people you don’t know some amount of money to supposedly hire some unknown law firm to represent you without anything in writing?
The same people that hold your real invested Zeek $$$ in their hands and are trying to keep them for themselves, in hope the receiver will not be able to clawback from them, so you will receive less in the future? That will help you how?
Zeek will not return in any way, shape, form or number. Time to admit that to yourself.
Thanks Erin.
Trying to get through to him can be maddening. 🙂
I dont know if you can but you are probably helping others “get it”
Here’s something else to consider, another “sign of the Ponzi”.
When Full Tilt Poker went under and investigated as a Ponzi, it had basically did not cash checks or randomly debiting / not debiting people’s accounts for their play balances, because apparently it learned to shuffle offshore credit card processors (hey, isn’t that what Laggos taught Zeek?) and didn’t do that well, and was stiffed out of millions when one of their credit processors went under.
Now that Zeek’s closed and all the sorry details started coming out, one check processor said they have like MILLIONS AND MILLIONS worth of checks UNPROCESSED. At least 3 mil has processing errors, and I wasn’t talking about “funds in transit”.
So clearly having payment (inward or outward) problems is one such warning signs for Ponzi-ness…
This article had a nice shout out to K. Chang about the bizarre Craddock Hubpages takedown attempt, and also this bit:
This is nothing new to those following, but I did have a few relative late comers to Zeek ask me about the K. Chang/Craddock history. So let me rephrase Jordan’s sentence above:
Not only did Craddock not represent Zeek, and not only was the copyright claims wrong due to fair use, and not only did Zeek not own those copyrights (even if Craddock was acting on Zeek’s behalf as an employee, officer, or agent)…. BUT, the Hub’s assertions were correct all along.
Add in Caldwell’s condemnation of all skeptics, though primarily aimed at Oz, and you have a digital fantastic pie-in-face scenario.
Well said.
This is the precise situation contemplated by wire/mail fraud and money-laundering laws. It happened in the days/weeks leading up to the AdSurfDaily raid by the U.S. Secret Service on Aug. 1, 2008.
ASD almost certainly died prior to the raid in the sense that it feared that depositing cashier’s checks would lead to a seizure of bank accounts, so it sat on them while looking for alternatives. ASD was using two banks at the time. At least one of them closed an Andy Bowdoin-related account in the days leading up to the raid, citing Ponzi fears, according to court files.
Just prior to the raid, Bowdoin moved “several million” dollars into SolidTrustPay, according to court files. He’d basically been playing payment-processor roulette throughout ASD’s operation and at one time was using eGold, which became the subject of an investigation and criminal charges by some of the very same agencies/individuals who later brought down ASD.
ASD also advertised that it used CEPTrust, the payment processor linked to the CEP Ponzi scheme. One of ASD’s insiders allegedly was running an Oregon “religious” organization from Missouri while she maintained multiple ASD accounts. One of them allegedly was funded by money from e-Bullion, whose operator later was convicted of arranging the brutal contract slaying of his wife in a Greater Los Angeles parking garage. James Fayed was sentenced to the death penalty. His wife Pamela was a potential witness against him.
E-Bullion was linked to multiple Ponzi schemes, including the infamous Gold Quest International Ponzi scheme in Las Vegas in which a bogus attorney now in federal prison tried to sue the SEC for $1.7 TRILLION.
In any event, all of ASD’s loose checks reportedly were seized. As is the case now with Zeek, some of the members were unhappy about the check seizures, reasoning that they should have been able to stop payment. The Zeek receiver has addressed this issue under the “Frequently Asked Questions” tab on his website:
http://zeekrewardsreceivership.com/FAQ.html
The sad reality is that Ponzi = Pain. The law recognizes that, which is why court-appointed receivers seek to make sure the victims are treated equitably. Some Zeek members already are seeking to poison the well against the receiver.
PPBlog
What never ceases to amaze me is post after post after post goes into the similarities of ASD, Zeek and other Ponzis. I get it that they copycat each other because they continue to get away with it. I say “they” meaning the minions, so-called Founders Club members and the like. Seems the Presidents and CEO’s go down but the worker bees keep on keepin’ on, just move to a different hive.
My question to you experts here: Do you think Zeek will be any different because of the size of the operation? Will the law enforcement agencies, whether it be Secret Service, FBI, seek indictments for the worker bees?
I haven’t seen in any of your examples where those guys/gals have ever been arrested or had any consequences whatsoever.
Given many are the same players, maybe this time around the net can be tightened. Until such time that these people are given jail time, there will be no changes.
Clawbacks, no matter how large, is meaningless relatively speaking because they have learned how to hide accounts, offshore, etc. Sharing cells with Bubba ought to scare some of them a bit.
I’ve outlined before what I thought Zeek needed to do to become legal. First, sell bids to affiliates for a certain price, say 50 cents each. Then, have the affiliates find customers to sell the bids to at $1 apiece. Then they can also recruit other people in their downlines to sell under them which would make it a typical MLM, though they’re selling an intangible product.
Then, Zeek would need to have a decent penny auction site with actual items that people want to bid on, no cash out option, and good IT. They’d also have to make sure they sent the won items on time.
Then Zeek should use real advertising, not online classified ad spam. Help the affiliates by buying commercials on TV & radio as well as internet banner ads.
Of course, there’s not really any need for an affiliate program after all this is done, and there’s also no guarantee that Zeek or any of the affiliates would be successful. Since most people who joined Zeek only wanted a passive investment opportunity, it’s highly likely an affiliate program would fail anyway, since finding actual customers to sell bids to in what would be a highly competitive market would be actual work.
And then, of course, if someone wanted to do all this to restart Zeekler and Zeek Rewards, they’d have to completely change the name since the Zeek name is now poison. Before August 16th, if you googled “Zeek Rewards” you’d find nothing but tons of websites about how great a money making opportunity it is (with maybe a link here to behindmlm thrown in), but since August 16th if you google the same thing you get tons of news articles talking about ZR being a massive ponzi scheme. The Zeek name is poison.
This is, of course, all hypothetical because nobody wants to bring Zeek back except the gullible idiots who have convinced themselves that it wasn’t a ponzi and want their passive income opportunity back. But they don’t have the power to bring it back. Since Paul signed Zeek over to the SEC’s receiver while giving up his right to appeal, nobody does.
I have no reason to believe the ASD case is over, despite the Aug. 29 sentencing of Andy Bowdoin. Bowdoin was debriefed by the government over a period of at least four days in late 2008 and early 2009. I do not believe they were talking about the weather in Florida.
My personal view is that Bowdoin was a crook being manipulated by other crooks. Suddenly and mysteriously in February 2009 — AFTER Bowdoin had submitted to the forfeiture “with prejudice” under advice of counsel a month earlier — Bowdoin reentered the case as a pro se litigant and tried to reverse the forfeiture decision.
This reentry bid coincided with a meeting Bowdoin had with a “group” of ASD members. After that meeting, Bowdoin filed a series of pleadings that best can be described as magical thinking. The cheerleaders brought out their pom-poms and painted Bowdoin a hero standing up to the evilGUBment.
Many — probably most — of the cheerleaders didn’t know about the December 2008/January 2009 debriefing because Bowdoin never told them.
In April 2009 — after all the cheerleading and after Bowdoin was celebrated like a rock star — the prosecution went to federal court and dropped a bombshell: Indeed, Bowdoin already had admitted the government’s material allegations were “all true” and even had signed a proffer letter.
Some of Bowdoin’s principal cheerleaders later ended up at Zeek — this while an active criminal investigation into ASD still was under way and after Bowdoin was sued by some of his own members in a complaint that alleged racketeering.
It is my belief that some of the people who ended up at Zeek potentially have unresolved criminal and civil liability for events that happened at ASD and, later, at an ASD 1-percent-a-day knockoff known as AdViewGlobal.
These are the folks who turned a blind eye to the ASD fraud scheme, the AdViewGlobal fraud scheme and the Zeek fraud scheme.
PPBlog
So, if ASD isn’t over, then Zeek is only beginning or in some ways a continuation of ASD criminal investigation. I hope you are right.
What’s that saying, “It ain’t over till the fat lady sings.” I think I can hear her doing warmups backstage at the moment. 🙂
The Zeekler penny auction business is/was possibly legal as it was (I have always thought all the penny auctions were flirting with gaming laws and may be proved right on that yet, but as of now, they’re legal)
Zeek Rewards and the MLM on the other hand was a ponzi scheme, just like thousands of other ones on TalkGold, Moneymakergroup and like sites. The only way that both could be legal, is if Zeek Rewards was splitting up only the profits made from the auctions, which we know now was less than 2% of the revenue. As Bidify is now in the process of proving, pimps and whores from the ponzi scheme industry aren’t interested in leading the downline suckers into opportunities based upon reality. Reality doesn’t offer 1% a day or more, the going rate of false dreams and huge referrer commissions.
All the talk about bringing Zeek back or making it legal misses one important point, the supposedly legal spect of Zeek, a penny auction site, was just a facade put up to provide a backstory for the real business, which was an illegal ponzi scheme. RVG had a dozen employees handling (mishandling) affiliates in the MLM, and one person more or less running a clunky and poorly executed penny auction site, which in the end was having issues just sending out anything sold at auction.
Have a quick peep at The Presidents’ Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force (FFETF)website:
http://www.fincen.gov/fraudenftaskforce.html and see if you can find any reason to suspect there won’t be further prosecution/s.
@ ZeekNoMore
It might also be good to note that this type of crime has really just started to balloon in scale and effectiveness over the last few years.
Generally speaking, most governments/authorities aren’t exactly noted for instituting changes to handle new challenges at lightning speed.
ASD was considered to be pretty large and just 8 years later it is dwarfed by Zeek.
Another ponzi that I followed around the same time as ASD crumbled and closed up before it ever hit the radar of the major authorities. That was YMMSS run by Kim Inman and that one took in an estimated $30-$60 million.
Who knows how much the JSS Tripler ponzi has taken in?
All we can hope is that the authorities will soon start knocking on the doors of the ponzi pimps.
Many of them have well established and easily documented histories of playing and promoting the HYIP/ponzi programs.
Well, I’m not sure what to think. It looks like there have been some prosecutions, but it’s also possible it’s politically charged since it’s a new Task Force under the Obama Administration. If it’s under one of the many Czars created in the past few years, who knows what the agenda or longevity of the Task Force is? I’m trying very hard not to be political here and would like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
FYI, it’s the same task force which took down AdSurf Daily.
Personally, I see no reason to assume the Zeek prosecution is not being handled through the same task force, given the fact the S.E.C. and the Secret Service are both task force members.
Then that’s very encouraging. Tending to get a wee bit more cynical in my old age.
In one of my blog posts, I identified FOUR levels of Ponzi participants: mastermind and cadre, core shills, judas goats, and sheeple.
By “worker bees” I assume you mean the “core shills”, the initial players brought in by the mastermind, not the judas goats.
In the Burnlounge case, FTC indicted two or three of the top “affiliates” along with the top execs. One of them made the news as he was supposed to be this all-American guy former college football star, blah blah. So there are signs that the “core shills” are getting noticed by the government taking down the scams.
We shall see if SEC takes notice.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/08/how-to-stop-or-at-least-slow-down.html
According to SEC website:
http://www.sec.gov/spotlight/enf-actions-ponzi.shtml
Second item on the list (as of 12-SEP-2012) is Zeek.
Just read the blog you wrote…excellent, excellent, in fact printed it for future reference. I think I’m going to have to branch out and participate in some of the other “skeptic” sites likes yours. Good stuff all around. If only there were more hours in the day.
Yes, “worker bees” would be the “core shills.” And, yes, I agree that they need to be prosecuted as diligently as the mastermind and cadre.
The part I hate about your descriptions is I’m a lowly sheeple, a term that’s hard to swallow for a strong-willed person like myself. But it is what it is. Oh, well…
I guess I fall under the category of “All MLM’s are scams and should be shut down.”
You took the words right out of my mouth, if I had seen what Troy had to say before agreeing to take a look at Zeek I would have ran the other way as fast as my feet could take me.
As it was the powers that be prevented me from being involved in Zeek, for some reason I just couldn’t get any of the payment processors to work for me and then the customer service rep on the help line was so rude and abrupt my 1st and 2nd opinion on this company went in the toilet.
Too bad many others didn’t pay attention to all the red flags that I saw.
I agree, because I hate, hate, hate them, BUT then again if we want to live in a free society should people be allowed to do dumb things if they want?
Within reason of course, your not injuring or hurting anybody else, or it’s not blatantly illegal, but then MLM does hurt others on some level most of the time, since pretty much everybody loses money. It’s kinda complicated if you think about it.
Maybe Ponzi’s should be illegal, and the top guns prosecuted, but if you get involved in one, that’s on you, too bad. I’m not sure it’s the governments job to hold your hand after and get your money back. Using taxpayer money to go through the whole after process doesn’t really seem right to me.
I bet people would learn a lot faster and word would spread quicker if people had to learn the REALLY hard way. I can’t think of too many other scams or bad decisions where the government will try and get your money back for you.
I lost a lot of money in a Ponzi years ago, but I didn’t have any expectation of the government or anybody else getting my money back for me, I did get some $ returned, and I’m grateful, but I was dumb and if I lost it, it was all my own fault. But I sure did learn not to do it again.
I guess I’m wondering off topic, and the government didn’t ask for my opinion anyway 🙂
Even though I’m an ex-Zeek affiliate, I think you are right. Sure, I’d love to get some of the money back but the fact of the matter is, no one held guns to our head, no one held our children hostage in order to get us into Zeek.
In fact, use of the word “victim” doesn’t even seem to fit..somehow minimizing true victims in other criminal activity. Don’t know what you’d call us, other than naive, foolish, dumb, hopeful to get out of the financial mess we are in… “victims” just doesn’t seem to be proper.
Of course, from the criminal standpoint, there are Plaintiffs and Defendants, prosecutors and defense attorneys, perpetrators and victims, so I guess that’s why the term is being used in this situation.
You were victims of FRAUD, plain and simple. Money is taken from you with false promises, with fake business model.
There’s an editorial in “The Dispatch”, the NC newspaper that was covering Zeek as it’s in their town. There’s a comment there that “SEC is the one that froze our money! There was no victims until the Feds moved in!”
The problem here is if a victim doesn’t even know he’s a victim, does his opinion count?
K.Chang, I do see your point about victimization. So, I guess in the legal sense, we are victims. The point I was trying to make is the fact that we did have choices in whether to join or not places some responsibility on us.
There were purportedly more than a million Zeek members.
What are the chances the collective WE applies to all million people.
Just as with every HYIP ponzi, there are different categories of participant, of which genuine victims is but one.
I was, but I still blame myself for believing, when I wondered to myself how that could possibly make sense, and then told myself it’s probably just something I don’t understand in the business world. After all others had been in for years and years and it was all good. I ignored my own common sense.
I don’t know…is that like a tree falling in the forest question? LOL
Dude(ette)… you just blew my mind.
(trying to add some levity here)
Marley…I know, Deep thoughts LOL
That is a major problem. 🙂
He feels like a victim, and identifies the SEC as the perpetrator, and the scammers as the “good guys”.
I seriously hopes he hasn’t got a driver’s licence, because of the very shortsighted focus he seems to have. I’ll guess he had his eyes focused on the “speedometer” each day — the RPP, “Cash available” and the VIP balance — the information that told him all he needed to know about how fast his money was growing.
From that viewpoint (with the nose touching the “speedometer”), the sudden and violent stop of his journey was clearly caused by the SEC.
Actually, when reading through the court documents, it seems like Paul Burks shut it down himself. RVG was shut down the day before the court hearing, on August 16th. Other parts of Zeek were shut down 2-4 days before, e.g. cancelling conference calls and cancelling Red Carpet Event. Paul Burks already had a qualified lawyer in place to represent him, and they had already prepared most of the details in the agreement.
It becomes visible in document #1, “Motion to Seal”:
In other words, Paul Burks seems to have been well prepared for the shutdown, and to have initiated the actual shutdown himself, in the days before Zeek was shut down by authorities.
This will probably give the guy with his nose attached to the “speedometer” a major shock, and remove most of his faith in humanity (or something similar). 🙂
You learned after the first time, that’s good. Believe it or not there are people that do this (ponzi, mlm) over and over and over for years and years thinking one is finally going to be “the one”.
Of course they truly believe every one is the one… until it’s not.
Ruhroh, there’s trouble in paradise:
This is why you don’t entertain delusional people who launch lawsuits trying to bring Ponzi schemes back.Anyone with half a brain should be able to look at what happened with the ASD case and the silly cases launched when they were shutdown, and appreciate that they were all thrown out/dismissed.
That and it was only a few years after ASD was shut down that the criminal side of things came to a conclusion (Bowdoin, ASD’s “Paul Burks”) is currently awaiting sentencing.
I’ll report when there’s something worth reporting on, till then Zeek Rewards was a Ponzi scheme and the SEC shut them down and that’s where I’ll leave it.
Sorry but Troy reminds me of darth vader who just can give up the darkside and admit zeek is a ponzi.
Burkes is the empourer and handed over the deathstar and craddock and the stormtroppers are turning on Troy. Connection on video kept letting me down so had to make my own plot.
maybe i am delusional too, but it sure beats listening to darth vader word for word.
The latest from The Dispatch:
You should read the first comment: “there was no victims until the SEC froze our money!”
Perhaps assumptions are necessary,
1. The viral nature of MLM creates massive exposure at little cost to the company owners
2. The zeek model was that the bids were “product”
3. “needing” money is not usually the requirement for aspiring to acquire it
My concern is this:
Penny auction mlm X is going to come along, it is going to be set up similar to zeek with the 3 key issues addressed
1. No manual manipulation of daily payouts
2. “real customers”, which will exist because they are required to be found by affiliates to be qualified
3. Payment based on bid usage not purchases
When it happens will that be legit?
Actually, I think Troy is starting to turn around. I would say the latest video is a “slight” concession that Zeek was a Ponzi.
He said it wasn’t DESIGNED as a Ponzi, which I’ll disagree with, but I think that’s a positive step from “it is not a Ponzi”.
Of course he also claimed that “give time, Caldwell would have fixed it”, but that’s almost another concession in itself.
(Carrying on with Marley’s levity theme.)
Deep Thoughts (by Jack Handy):
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier in the way we chop them down?
Well maybe. If they screamed all the time. And for no good reason.
——–
I’m amazed that Robert Craddock is getting into a pissing match with Troy. I don’t see an upside for him in this.
Yea, look at the Alexa numbers, a lot of people tune in to hear what Troy has to say and most of Robert’s potential donors are among them. Can he be this stupid?
As a decompression tactic they are “temporarily” no longer soliciting donations. Oh, the donation page is still active, unsecured and unencrypted but still active, but “no thanks, we got enough money for now”.
This isn’t stupid, the reason to complain about these guys is they’re asking for money and telling lies, now we can only complain about the lies they will be telling.
Last week they were promising to file something or another by Monday or Tuesday of this week. That’s been changed to “sometime this week.” Well they need to file something and do it soon to give the donors something to cheer about.
But they know they are being watched, not just by people like us but by people with the keys to those shiny interlinking bracelets. I think Robert is just getting a notion of how big the stage he’s standing on really is, and who some of the people in the audience are.
@Getting educated
That’s a bit like asking “what happens if an investment scheme comes out that isn’t just money being shuffled around between members?”
Zeek Rewards wasn’t a MLM company with problems, it was a Ponzi scheme. If a penny auction launches with a MLM style compensation plan that’s legit, it isn’t a Ponzi scheme anymore is it.
Q1: If there are already “real customers”, then that means the business model works WITHOUT MLM. Why would they then add MLM to it? MLM has a certain “stigma” to it, that it’s always seen as “off-mainstream”.
Q2: The Zeek model is fake. it is a MIRAGE. A mere facade, a Hollywood / Bollywood set. It’s NOT REAL. Thus using it as a basis for comparison to a “real” business would be comparing your life to life in Star Trek or Mordor.
Q3: Wait, are you saying this hypothetical company needs MONEY? Then that would just get them in trouble with the SEC again, wouldn’t it, selling unregistered securities?
—-
This will be a long-winded lecture on MLM theory.
Let’s for a moment, work backwards. Let’s say the plan indeed is to share 50% of bid sale profits with the affiliates. So what would the affiliates actually *do* to deserve that 50% share?
FTC guidelines are clear: you can only pay on SALES (in this case, of bids). Paying multiple level down is not a problem, as long as you pay on SALES of bids, not on recruitment.
So you work out a MLM comp plan that is based on sales… And you end up with something very much like Bidify’s current plan.
Let’s face it: no company is going to give up 50% of their daily revenue / profit without getting SOMETHING from the people who are getting it. In MLM, the company offloads most of the customer acquisition costs, affiliate recruiting costs, and training costs off to the affiliates. To get paid, affiliates need to sell, as it’s the only legal way for them to get paid.
So affiliates serve 3 roles, in order of importance:
1) Sales force, sells products to their circle
2) Recruiter, recruits prospective sales force members
3) Trainer, trains new sales force members
However, they are only PAID for doing 1).
So can you sell bids with MLM? Sure. Bidify’s doing it.
But it will NOT be “easy money” like Zeek was.
Penny auction MLM is rather meaningless, due to the constant need for replacing the customers with new ones.
Affiliates spending bids is rather meaningless, because that is a different type of “self consumption” than what is normal in MLM — the bids don’t cost anything to produce, and the affilate will bid in competition with normal customers and make the auctions become less attractive.
Normal MLM can use the self consumption among affiliates to generate a higher production volume (= lower cost per unit produced). It can also make the production quantity become more stable, more easy to calculate in a budget or in a production plan. BIDS as self consumpttion don’t offer the same excuses.
Penny auctions aren’t really that profitable, it’s mostly an illusion. But they are perfect to be used in a scam like Zeek, since people are highly willing to BELIEVE they are very profitable.
To earn $10,000 per month, the affiliate will have to recruit 2-3 times that amount in customers.
* 100 customers spending $200-$300 on bids
* or 50 customers spending $400-$600 on bids
Most customers will probably buy 50 or 100 bidpack, “just to try the auctions”. 60-80% of the customers will probably be one time customers, and will have to be replaced every month (but a few will remain loyal for a few months).
So the idea seems to be rather meaningless, don’t you agree?
Which is, in itself, more evidence Mr Dooly is in absolute denial.
$600 MILLION down the chute before he even starts ???
That makes 2 points Mr Dooly is still studiously avoiding:
1) name one, single, solitary business in the history of the planet which has been able to offer 1% per DAY on a repeated basis WITHOUT being a ponzi.
2) name one, single, solitary business in the history of the planet which has been able to be “turned around” after having been a $600 MILLION ponzi fraud.
There are certain “facts” which don’t need absolute confirmation.
a) Zeek was fraudulent from the first time it paid “ROI” from members’ fees while claiming it to be from “profit share”
b) Zeek was fraudulent from the first time it paid ANY percent per day ROI more than once.
c) Zeek was fraudulent from the moment its’ liabilities exceeded its’ assets. Once having announced a return for a specific day, it incurred a liability to each member, whether they “cashed out” the amount or not.
M_Norway is talking about viability of a product in the MLM space, which is something separate from the business model, but is influence by (and in turn influences) the product.
Most of those uber-juices and pills and whatnot have a very high profit margin for the company itself, and once you convince people to take them, they *want* to keep taking them due to various placebo effect, confirmation bias, false attribution of cause and effect, and so on and so forth.
That’s not the the point. The point is you get a repeat customer, who convince him/her-self that this is GOOD for himself/herself, and it’s money well spent. (Whether it is or is not is besides the point)
However, the same is NOT true for bids in penny auctions. Penny auctions are luxuries. You can’t convince people they NEED penny auction bids like they need pills and juices. So while bids are mostly profit, and it is a commodity that can be “used up”, it is not one that you can ascribe a NEED to.
As M_Norway pointed out, customer acquisition is going to be a PITA, because most customers will probably buy once or twice, and quit when they realize they are spending way too much bids and not getting stuff.
There will be an extremely high “churn” rate, and when the customers don’t stick around and buy bids repeatedly, you don’t have repeat customers and repeat business. Thus, your customer acquisition costs will be MUCH MUCH HIGHER than anticipated.
I had a friend who used to sell Quorum, those personal security devices like hotel door motion alarm, personal SOS beacon / flashlight / siren, and that sort of stuff. I told him it’s a deadend business because everybody only needs ONE and he has to look for new customers all the time instead of repeat business for stuff that gets “used up”.
As predicted, he quit after 2 months, having made no money at all.
And the penny auction market is likely to see something similar: people come in, try a bid pack or two, leaves. Virtually no repeat customer at all.
I just received this from the NCDOJ:
I’m not sure what this means regarding the status of the NCDOJ investigation into Zeek Rewards.
I’d say even earlier than that. I’d say it’s fraudulent the day they (that should be Burks, Dawn, and Darryl) picked the comp plan they “tweaked” by using Zeekler and MyBidShack since August 2010 through December 2010.
Someone needs to dig up what comp plan was on Zeekler and MyBidShack back in 2010 so we can see where did they go Ponzi. I haven’t been able to dig up anything yet.
My point was, there are a myriad of reasons/times when, without “proof” it was possible to say without fear of contradiction, Zeek was a fraud.
There’s no need to even consider the “comp plan”
In fact, it’s the “comp plan” discussions which have got Mr Dooly into the pickle he’s in.
There never was a “comp. plan”
For sure, there was something which had the appearance of a “comp. plan”, but it was window dressing.
1% per DAY is all Mr Dooly needed to know.
It’s not until the “Troy Doolys” of the world come to accept it was all smoke and mirrors and NOTHING was real that they’ll be able to move on.
Otherwise he’s condemned to a lifetime of supporting outright frauds simply because their “comp. plan” makes sense.
The nitpickers among the Zeeklers can argue, of course, that 2% of payouts coming from the Auctions and Paul Burks is the guys real name means that I can’t use the term “nothing”
In Zeeks’ case, however, I fail to see any material difference between “2%” being legit. and “nothing” was legit.
Just look for the first instance of any website collateral, T&C’s, or advertisement that mentions ROI, “compounding,” or “no recruiting”.
Even before it was a Ponzi, it was an illegal, unregistered investment.
It probably means that the Receiver is responsible for the investigation, the civil parts of it. NCDOJ will participate in HIS investigation, rather than that he will participate in THEIR investigation.
A court has already made a decision for how to handle the case on a federal level, and NCDOJ will simply follow that order.
If you haven’t checked out the 9/12 Zteambiz site update, you may want to read it…for laughs. If you don’t want to waste your time, here’s a summary…
1. We are no longer asking for donations (for now).
2. We will let you know who the mystery legal team is on 9/18.
3. We don’t want you calling them at that time because if you do, it will run up the legal bill even more which, of course, means we need more of your money.
And in closing, Robert Craddock has the audacity to write…
“Please don’t let people play with your emotions for their financial gain.”
Is he for real??????
Also, note to Robert – You may want to consult with someone who has a little background in writing and proofreading.
If I was going to ask people for donations like you, I would at least make sure there aren’t so many run-on sentences and misspelled words. Emails and blogs are one thing, but come on, something of this magnitude and you can’t even get a 7th grader to proof it???? You’re a lawyer???? Wow.
Saw some fun tidbits in Troy Dooly’s latest post.
This one speaks for itself. Everybody just smile and roll your eyes here….
Next, a combination of ego mixed with, maybe, delusion….
Here, a slightly inflated view of his influence. I suspect the firestorm of questions from former affiliates had just as much to do with “forcing Robert Craddock and crew to remove…” as Troy had to do with it……
Funny he couldn’t get this next one out of his mouth during that famous radio interview with himself and Dawn. This would have been more appropriate than him stepping in and saying her answering the question would be out of compliance…..
And of course there’s this final one. Sounds like he’s easing his way over, ever so slowly, to getting on the right side of the FACTS. Clearly it’s still waffling, floundering wordsmithing, but for him it’s still a slight improvement….
Ah, that’s the “pot calling the kettle black” fallacy. 🙂 Or as I call it “What I say (about your side) doesn’t apply to myself” fallacy.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/09/whatever-i-say-about-your-side-doesnt.html
Exactly. This was one of the major red flags that made me suspicious of Zeek when I first read about how it was supposed to work.
Just dawned on me that if they had called this thing ZIRP Rewards they would have been home free!
Not only would the government not have shut them down, they would have promoted it! Ah, what might have been…
There have been a good number of stories about and updates from zTeamBiz in the last few hours. Forgive me for not wanting to retype everything and just giving a link instead:
http://www.realscam.com/f10/zeek-rewards-how-get-3k-month-starting-free-member-642/index40.html#post28165
Latest announcement from Receiver Ken Bell:
http://zeekrewardsreceivership.com/pdf/9-13-12%20-%20Letter%20from%20the%20Receiver.pdf
Wait a minute, the letter from the receiver clearly states that he intends to recover assets from people who took more money out of Zeek than they put in. But that’s impossible!! Dave told us on the 8th of this month that:
Someone better tell Mr. Bell that he can’t clawback Todd and Dave’s money. I guess he isn’t on Dave’s e-mail list.
Boy, you aren’t kidding about a good number of updates. Thanks for posting these.
These guys are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. It’s really very entertaining, especially knowing that things aren’t working according to plans, or so it appears.
They are really annoyed that people ask questions…that is obvious. Just wondering if they encountered the public opposition in the ASD scam after the scam like they are now.
So not surprisingly, as per Kenneth Bell, Dave Kettner and Robert Craddock have been full of shit this past week.
As per Kettner’s latest email:
Lololol. Craddock says it’s from Kettner, Kettner says it’s from Craddock and when Dooly asked Craddock he wouldn’t confirm or deny the information was from him.
Oh and this gem:
Sucks to be someone who donated money to the Fun Club 12, you’re going to be left completely in the dark whilst these top Ponzi players use your money to secure their own interests.
I hope Kettner isn’t suggesting affiliates ignore emails from the court-appointed receiver regarding fund recovery???
Todd was actually very late to the plate with his Ad Surf Daily suit. Not that his suit wouldn’t have been futile anyway but by the time he started passing the plate he could only come up with enough cash for his former attorney friend Dwight to argue the case.
But since Dwight no longer had a law license he couldn’t “represent” Todd so the two of them filed “pro se” which means they were both representing themselves.
There was a more timely false lawsuit effort. Robert Lee Guenther organized the Ad Surf Daily Members Business Association (ASDMBA) Trust. In theory all the donors were contributing to a trust fund set up to secure representation and protect the donor’s interests. It didn’t work out that way.
When the was first formed it was Pro ASD and Pro Andy Bowdion. But in what I will give credit to Robert (Guenther) for is realizing that there wasn’t much of a pitch to be made fighting for ASD, Andy had his own legal team after all.
So the ASDMBA pulled a fast 180 and was suddenly against ASD but ironically enough, used the same anti court appointed receiver rhetoric now being used by Robert (Craddock). One further irony, both Roberts (Craddock and Guenther) have the middle name of Lee.
Well the ASDMBA did secure legal representation by a Dallas law firm with whom Robert Guenther had a VERY long relationship. He used to own an auto dealership and had a string of civil suits against him longer than my arm and Larry Friedman or some other member of Friedman and Feiger was there for him for all of them. But for reasons I never discovered Larry F wasn’t there for Robert G when he was convicted of bank fraud.
Anyway, back to the story. lawyer Larry spoke on confrence calls both before and shortly after the ASDMBA pulled the 180 on ASD. I was never very satisfied with his explanation, from a legal perspective for the turn about. It wasn’t long after this that Larry stopped appearing on the calls.
Robert Lee Guenther was a well practiced with a sales pitch, but this wasn’t a good venue for him. When your selling a car you close the deal in an hour or so or you don’t close the deal. Suddenly he was called on to do weekly updates about a lawsuit that never got filed and was expected to answer questions on the ASDMBA forum.
This is where I sorta slipped my slimy little tendrils into the works. I’m a “forum guy” and the kind lady who did the day to day running of the place and I became pen pals.
Not to overstate my role, there were many other good people who started asking questions about Robert G, especially after we discovered that pesky little bank fraud thing but I did help her to decide to keep letting both sides get heard.
Well, Robert G was something of a rage-a-holic and was less than thrilled to discover that he didn’t really control the ASDMBA forum and the person who did was letting people ask uncomfortable questions.
There was a slow motion meltdown that needed to be seen to appreciate. Robert G started calling everyone the most vicious insult he knew, “Liberal.” “You must be a Liberal because you’re posting on the internet instead of watching football” was a personal favorite.
It wasn’t all laughs, a very kindhearted and dedicated anti-scam gentleman got sued by lawyer Larry to shut him up. This fine man was retired, living on social security and raising his grand daughter after his son had been murdered.
In the USA a social security check can not be garnished to a civil suit and the state this man lived in has what’s called a “homestead exemption” making it almost impossible to lose your home to a suit. Lawyer Larry knew that when he pressed the suit, he knew he’d never see a dime. He did it to shut that good man up.
Anyway, bring this already way to long story to a quick close, not a single document was ever filed by the ASDMBA with the court. But the fund raising effort likely generated $130k which was perhaps enough for Robert Lee Guenther to repay his downline the money they (and he) lost in ASD.
When people asked for a refund, Robert said “sue me.”
My comment:
People should probably include membership fees in their claims, and MAYBE other expences paid directly to RVG.
If I had used the method of buying retail bids through family member (to earn commission and VIP points), I would probably have included the NET amount used there, too. The method ws a part of the scam, like anything else.
People who followed Howard Kaplan’s “general tax advises” will have an advantage here. “Keep your own daily or weekly track of income, expenses, work related to this business”, and “organize your documentation in a folder”.
A voluntarily payback can probably be better than a clawback for some people, i.e. because the process will then be more under your own control. It’s possible to make a better deal, within some limits, e.g. get some claims like “retail bids purchase through family member” accepted.
The Receiver’s instructions is to recover assets in a cost effectively way, and that opens for some types of flexibility, but it must be within reasonable limits — applicable for a whole class of participants rather than for individuals.
“MAGICAL NUMBERS”The magical numbers for when he can perform a clawback is probably if you have received MORE THAN or LESS THAN your principal investment (plus membership fees, etc.).
More than: He CAN perform a clawback
Less than: He CAN’T perform a clawback (he can’t use YOUR money to pay other victims).
Less than: I doubt he can use money you already have recovered as part of the equation, e.g. if your total investment was $10,000, and you have received $7,000, then your NET INVESTMENT $3,000 should have similar rights as any other net investments.
Affiliates in foreign countries have probably similar rights as affiliates in the U.S., and most of them don’t have to fear clawbacks. Clawbacks CAN be done in foreign countries too in some cases, probably through the court system in the country in question.
This is a very interesting question and will be something worth paying attention to. I’m afraid I can only guess at how this might end up working and it would be only that, a guess.
From a mathematical perspective it’s likely that 9 out of 10 ZR members lost money. This would be true no matter what country you lived in.
So in most cases it seems likely that the counterpart agency to the SEC in each affected country would have a positive motive to cooperate with the receiver in administering clawbacks because the net money that get’s taken away will be less than the sum they’d stand to see returned if they did cooperate.
Of course there will be many variables, how friendly a given nation is with the USA and how corrupt that government may be. But I doubt you’d see many countries sending money into the receiver.
Probably more like they preform clawbacks on their citizens and report the amount. Then once the total refund to that countries citizens is calculated the receiver refunds the difference and leaves it to the locals to disburse the funds.
Again, I’ve seen several receivership being administered but this is the first one I’ll be watching where perhaps the majority of the money is from offshore.
It should prove to be informative.
GlimDropper: Thank you very much for the ASD Story…very, very interesting chain of events. The part about the “good man” who was sued by Lawyer Larry is heartwrenching. These people are such scums of the earth.
While I don’t think it always hold true, I believe most of the time what goes around comes around. The good man couldn’t have taken from him what is really important, his integrity and good conscience, and people who I’m sure loved him.
The Lawyer Larrys of this world are usually pretty miserable people, no matter how hard they try to act otherwise. They get what’s coming to them one way or the other.
Maybe some day someone will write a book about these characters…not that they deserve the publicity. Hey, maybe you faithful scam busters can be cast as the good guys who ended up being vindicated. 🙂
It will NOT go through any “SEC counterpart” in other countries (with a possible exception: CANADA).
The Receivership is a Trust, a civil entity rather than a government agency. In the U.S., some of the clawbacks were covered by the court order. Outside the U.S., he will have to use the court system (or other methods) in the correct jurisdiction.
The normal process in a foreign country will probably be something like this:
1. Present his claim to the other party
2. Wait for a response from the other party
3. Accept the response, or do something
4. Use a local lawfirm, trying to collect the money outside court
5. Use a local lawfirm, trying to collect the money through a court
I’m not sure I have covered ALL points, but point 1 and 2 are important. He can’t start on point 4, but he can use the same lawfirm as “assistance” in all of the points.
The solution can’t be very cost friendly if it’s used against ordinary affiliates, so I’ll guess it’s only meant to be used in “special cases”.
In some cases it’s possible to sue banks, e.g. if they have assisted their clients in some ways. I don’t think methods like that will be used.
I have already suggested this to Oz, and told him I would fight to be the first in line to buy it 🙂
I’ll help. 😀
I’m new to this site so it’s hard for me to tell if you guys are kidding me. I do have a gullible side. But seriously, I do think it could be a very interesting book/movie, whatever.
Also, given there are so many people who were involved in Zeek, there would be a market for it.
My advice is – Do it! If you don’t, someone else will, and it might be someone who doesn’t know the real story behind the story the way you all do.
Lawyers are only “actors” in a system. They act ON BEHALF of their clients, not on behalf of themselves. The client has to make the important decisions himself, e.g. whether or not to sue someone. So it’s the client’s decision that is the problem, not the lawyer’s.
So if you want to blame someone, blame the client rather than the lawyer.
For some reasons, the Goddess of Justice has always been pictured blindfolded, with weights to measure the facts in a case.
The problem here is what he considers as “fact” is that he “heard” Craddock said blahblahblah.
The actual information itself is “hearsay”, i.e. Craddock heard from SNR Denton who heard from SEC that “SEC case is weak”.
But he doesn’t say that. This is equivocation (or stupidity).
Thank you for the correction M_Norway.
I know the receiver is a non governmental agent and I do trust the rest of what you’ve shared with me. But ya know, these internet money games are getting more and more multinational with victims in many countries.
One of these days, at it may not be soon but there will mounting pressure for increased cooperation. These scams are evolving into more efficient predators.
Hell, Zeek might weigh in more than six times ASD’s damage toll once they pull it all above the surface and I ~think~ Zeek had a shorter run.
And there is a financial motive in countries cooperating. Why should US and Canadian victims receive an X% refund but citizens in Israel for example, receive nothing?
Thanks again for the fact check.
From what I understand Robert Craddock worked closely under Greg “all criticism of Zeek Rewards is false” Caldwell.
Is it any wonder that we’re now hearing “everybody is lying except us” from Craddock?
I just noticed the Zeek Rewards and Zeekler (parked) websites are now offline.
When did that happen?
Every time I read this I laugh so hard the wife thinks I’m losing it! I’m hoping Craddock keeps posting up his nonsense. With his shots at Troy and made up porkies I’m seriously laughing my ass off!
Just a quick question for those who followed the ASD case… Did the ASD Receiver have a website? I couldn’t search for anything regarding the ASD Receivership.
ASD receiver is called “Rust Consulting” if memory serves.
Check ASDUpdates.com
I didn’t really follow ASD that much, but the claims administration firm that handled remissions was Rust Consulting and the site was at adsurfdailyremission.com which doesn’t appear to be active any longer.
You can use the Wayback Machine to view what it looked like.
The ASD case was handled slightly unusually, in that The Department of Justice appointed Rust Consulting as a “remissions administrator”, rather than as a court appointed receiver.
But attorneys don’t have to take every case that comes their way. I worked for attorneys over the years…most were good, ethical guys, and there were cases some simply refused to take because of their own moral code.
So, just like I didn’t have to sign up as a Zeek affiliate, neither did Lawyer Larry have to take a case where an elderly man would be ruined.
Of course, the client is to be blamed…but I do blame lawyers who take cases that are obviously unethical. It’s not necessary.
PS – The comment in 332 wasn’t directed at lawyers at all. In fact, because I have known so many, I usually come to their defense when lawyer jokes are made. 🙂
It really was about the fact, from personal observations in life, people who live their lives screwing other people over end up geting paid back one way or another.
Maybe not in civil court, criminal court or any court. But the price is paid most of the time in lack of true friendships, lack of deep family ties, and lack of peace in your soul and heart…things that are really important in life.
Thanks for pointing out the difference. Now that I recalled, the Feds filed multiple “forfeiture” lawsuits to let the court legally take all of ASD’s assets, THEN assigned Rust Consulting to give them back. Part of that is because Andy Bowdoin chose to fight his charges.
In Zeek’s case, they simply gave all of THAT responsibility (grab the money AND give it all back) to the receiver.
Someone WILL have to be willing to take a case. So by having an ethical standard, they are simply pushing the case onto some other lawyer. It would probably have been better if they had taken the case, and influenced their client’s decissions with some of their own ethical standard.
Lawyers are an important part ot the Justice system, as “professional actors” acting on behalf of clients rather than on behalf of themselves (if they are “good”). A “good” lawyer will usually be willing to accept “problem-cases” where the client’s actions is in conflict with his own ethical standard (personal standard).
Even “better” lawyers are able to influence the client’s decissions, and bring it closer to “common ethical standard” than the client were in the first place, without harming his own client’s interests.
Noell P. Tin made Paul Burks make a decision about surrendering the company and pay a $4 million fine. From my viewpoint he did a great job both for his client and for other parties involved.
Some people will probably feel hurt about it, and some will partially be hurt in reality too. But he protected his own client’s interests, and the interests of the victims as a group (rather than on individual level).
The important point in the deal he made for Paul Burks was the one about $4 million fine. The fine will cover ALL civil penalties including tax penalties, probably for the last 10 years. And Paul Burks has several “tax issues”, where we probably only have seen a few of them.
From my viewpoint, Noell P. Tin made a difference for his client, and was also able to bring the case to a solution closer to “common ethical standard” than Paul Burks would have managed himself.
Many other lawyers would probably have harmed Paul Burks’ long term interests, trying to defend the wrong parts of the case (and lose the important point about possible tax penalties).
Your lawyers with the “high ethical standard” would probably have choosed a similar solution, rather than pushing the case onto some other lawyers? Ponzi schemes are NOT very ethical, but the lawyers’ work CAN become a very ethical part of a solution.
Very true!
The cases “my lawyers” refused to take were sexual abuse and child abuse cases, and eventually phased out of criminal defense altogether.
Although even with those cases, as you pointed out, justice is blind and the people charged with even the worst of crimes need to be defended.
That’s why I always kind of cringe at lawyer jokes because guess who you need if someone you know ends up in jail…or is going through a divorce…a good lawyer! Kind of like it’s minor surgery when it’s done on you…it’s major surgery when it’s done on me. A matter of perspective. 🙂
I’m glad they finally took the sites down completely. Maybe this will help stop giving Zeek true believers false hope that Zeek is going to go back into business.
And part of it was because Bowdoin had, in effect, ripped off AdSurf Daily itself.
He transferred a large amount of the money into accounts held in his own name, rather than ASD business accounts.
I stand to be corrected, but, from memory, there was around $80million in something like 10 different BoA accounts in his name.
There was a lot of conjecture at the time that the DoJ would have been within its’ rights to confiscate all the money and assets rather than do as it did and allow Rust Consulting to carry out the remissions.
I needed to refresh my memory before commenting but Larry Friedman did in fact sue Jack Arons on his own behalf. Patrick does a better job of explaining than I could:
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2009/03/06/jacks-arons-purportedly-sued-by-larry-friedman/
There are a wealth of links to many stories about this incident and Ad Surf Daily in general on Patrick’s site.
Apparently, from what my wife told me, that my in-laws are now getting involved with Blue Bird Bids (mentioned in the penny auction roundup article on this site).
I’m guessing they’re smarting from the loss of the money they put into Zeek and are looking for something else to comp that loss. I don’t know that much about Blue Bird Bids but guess it’s another cheesy penny auction/get-rich-quick investment scheme/ponzi.
I really think it’s a bad idea for them to get involved in another ripoff scam, but my wife doesn’t want me to say anything to them. I guess I’ll just sit back and watch, and will probably be hanging around behindmlm a bit longer.
I like the above hint from Kenneth Bell about “voluntary” returning of the ill-gotten gains. You can almost sense that he is laying the groundwork for what is yet to come while in his very subtle way letting the schemers know they have something to worry about. Ain’t it cool?
It has its’ own thread on both the Talkgold and MMG HYIP ponzi forums.
Nothing more needs to be said.
You should print out Oz’s preliminary review and mail it to them “anonymously”. 🙂
For anyone wanting to read behindmlm’s take on some of the prelaunch penny auctions. https://behindmlm.com/companies/mlm-penny-auction-opportunity-prelaunch-roundup/
The believers carp about the Receiver’s law firm soaking up tons of the money and leaving pennies on the dollar to go back out to the affiliates. Well, just wondering. Would the $4 million fine levied against Paul be enough to likely cover the Receivers bill?
If that worked out, it would be a nice thing to be able to say that the court covered the costs of the action out of Paul’s pocket, and NOT the affiliates. Yes, I know that any that $4 million Paul had probably came from affiliate money, but you get my point. Thoughts?
In other words… “we know who you are. If you cooperate we won’t sue you and make your name public. If not… we’ll make sure the whole world knows who you are.”
Remember in the second set of Star Wars movies Episode 1? Liam Neeson’s character was being chased under water by a large nasty fish that was eaten by one much larger. His comment?
“There’s always a bigger fish”.
Wouldn’t do any good. They didn’t heed my warnings that Zeek was a ponzi scheme and now think the SEC was wrong for shutting them down.
They’re blinded by dollar signs and are looking for any way to get rich quick.
About $65.8 million was in Bowdoin’s name in 10 BoA accounts. Slightly more than $14 million was in five DIFFERENT bank accounts linked to Golden Panda Ad Builder, the ASD knockoff and upstart ‘surf linked to Bowdoin and Clarence Busby Jr.
All of the approx. $80 million was decreed forfeited. Some of the Golden Panda money was in a Georgia bank that later failed — and Busby once was a pitchman for a prime-bank swindle that offered a return of 10,000 percent.
PPBlog
Likely there will be significant administrative costs associated with the RVG Receivership, but in accordance with the 2002 Sarbanes Oxley Act’s “Fair Funds Provision”), SEC fines such as the $4 Million Burks agreed to pay and any other disgorgements that are collected are to be distributed to the victims of a securities fraud.
Reference Investopedia
Welcome to my world
Well I’m definitely not going to feel sorry for them at all this time if/when they lose money. Especially if they happen to be as smug as they were when they were in Zeek.
Hopefully they will get it after a couple of losses. Be glad it’s not your spouse who’s a lifetime addict 🙂
Yes, but my wife thinks that her dad is always 100% correct about everything, but I think I scored a few points when Zeek got shut down.
She was always telling me that I was just being negative and I needed to be more excited about all the money they were making. But I’m going to put my foot down this time and tell her to not get involved in Blue Bird Bids even if she just plays with her dad’s money like she did with Zeek.
I was a bit worried about identity theft or other problems because she had to give Zeek her SSN to become an affiliate. At least all the computer files are in the hands of the SEC’s receiver now.
Oh and I might add that they’ve also fallen for other MLM’s in the past which came to town, ones where you actually had to sell products (Metabolife for instance) and ones where you supposedly get paid for using certain company’s products.
So have a lot of other people around town, but you’d think that they’d all eventually learn that nobody has ever actually gotten rich from any of the MLM’s that have come and gone. Yet when the next one comes around, they all fall for the same promises of quick, easy wealth.
Thanks Chris, lillt, and KC for the info about ASD case.
It’s not that “nobody” earns. It’s that the MLMs, with their “peer to peer” marketing, is very good at selling a dream, instead of reality, while hiding the “inconvenient truth”.
I recommend reading my little article here:
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Networking-Marketing-is-doomed-to-failure-its-all-about-the-dream-not-reality
Your #1 on that list is exactly why I’ve always believed any MLM business is doomed to fail. Trying to sell a product and then recruit everyone you know to sell the same product is very much like opening a McDonald’s on every street corner. There will be so many to choose from that none of them will be able to turn a profit due to market saturation.
This is why most corporations limit the number of franchises they allow in any given area. However, MLM is exactly the opposite, they encourage more and more distributors, affiliates, or whatever they want to call them.
This is also why I believe that most MLM’s are like pyramid schemes. You only get success if you recruit, recruit, recruit, and nobody really cares about actually selling the product.
From what I’ve seen, a whole lot of the people that get in them are super excited, initially. When they realize this isn’t the product that the whole world has been waiting for, and the money isn’t raining down on them, they move on to the next exciting one, usually within a month or two, if that long. Some have multiple ones going at the same time. I haven’t ever seen anyone actually make a penny.
I can’t see why anyone would want to peddle some insanely priced, inferior product on their friends, family and strangers. And if it’s even marginally good, it’s gonna be for sale at Walmart shortly.
Husband has done this over and over and over for the 20 years I’ve known him, and I don’t know how long before that. Never made a cent, lost thousands and thousands, except for Zeek, and that looks like it will be going back. He still states he LOVES MLM. Go figure.
Now it’s Banners, straight up ponzi, I’m waiting for that one to die. I’m hoping he’ll learn and stop the ponzi thing anyway.
Hate to say it, but if he’s been doing this for 20 years and hasn’t learned that he hasn’t made any money, he won’t learn to leave the ponzis alone.
Yes, but I would hazard a guess that the SEC isn’t the only one out there with the affiliates’ personal info.
I know…wishful thinking…he leaves ponzis alone for a couple years, then goes and tries a couple more when they sound good. He seems to totally forget, been there done that. If the darn government would just leave the poor guys alone!
MLM or other things in between. I have realized he’s not ever going to change his ideas about ponzi, mlm or anything else that sounds like it might make him rich.
Another odd part of it is we don’t need the money, but we’d have a lot more if he’d stop 🙂 I think it’s partly the initial excitement, and the need to try to recoup what he lost in the last one…kind of like a gambler I guess.
I keep thinking someday he must figure all this is a huge waste of time, but I really have to admit to myself he’s not going to ever stop, BUT it’s just so hard to wrap my head around why he can’t or doesn’t want to understand what he’s doing.
He’s just completely obsessed. Our thought processes are just completely alien to each other.
I thought for a long time it was just him, but as he’s done this over the years he’s met others and they are just like him, amazing me even further.
You might want to get something like Lifelock for awhile. Who knows how Zeek took care of their files while they had them, stuff could have ended up in the trash or wherever.
I think we know they were sloppy in their business, and probably didn’t have the most honest people around.
HYIP ponzi databases and mailing lists are worth a fortune to the ‘net underworld.
Not only are the names pre qualified i.e. they’re people who are obviously susceptible to scams and ignorant of the risks involved in participating, many have also unwittingly given up their SS numbers, bank and payment processor details, addresses and phone numbers in order to be “verified”
As has been proven by recent events, they have no idea with whom they’ve been dealing, unlike HYIP ponzi “players” who ALWAYS use fake IDs and multiple processor accounts and NEVER, EVER reveal any personal details.
“True believers” on the other hand, who think they are dealing with legitimate businesses are like manna from heaven for the lowlifes which make up the HYIP ponzi “scene”
“True believers” almost fall over themselves in their eagerness to become identity theft victims as well as fraud victims.
Troy had some explanations in his “Gaming addiction theories”, the material he linked to. It involves the “reward center” in the brain.
First you aree rewarded by the IDEA of winning, then it’s partially confirmed over and over again. After a long time you will realize you actually have lost money, but the brain will prefer to repeat the same reward pattern.
Some types of gamblers will have logical methods to prevent themselves from being addicted to the game, e.g. having strict RULES they will have to follow (max amount, max hours per day/week, and so on).
In general, logical methods can act as a “counter poison” against emotional addictions. But other than that, I don’t study that type of material very deeply.
All kinds of behaviour that includes emotional rewards and is repeated very frequently can have the same effect. You can be addicted to work, shopping, internet use, mobile phones, gaming, gambling, MLM, Ponzi schemes, HYIPs, and so on and so forth.
I have pointed it out in one MLM-company I studied. “The owner seems to be too busy celebrating himself as a success, but he hasn’t had any success in the last 3 years”. Some people will desperately continue to reward themselves in their fantasies, even when the reality clearly fails. It’s a side effect of some selfdev bulls***.
JoeMama, Erin and whoever else:
In the past several weeks some practical advice has been given over how to protect identity. Here are several things to do ASAP.
1. Cancel/change any credit cards/bank accounts associated with the Zeek business.
2. Go to http://www.experian.com – and register an identity alert. They will automatically contact Experian and Equifax. This alert lasts for 90 days, at which time I will do it again…and again.
3. Get one of the identity theft protections. My husband and I have Lifelock and are going to upgrade to the one that even notifies if someone tries funny business in your checking accounts.
Anyway, the first two things are free…#3 will probably be a few hundred dollars, but well worth it considering what’s at risk.
Troy, used this “Gaming addiction theories” as his assumption for arguing that Zeek is not a Ponzi scheme. His arguement basically stated that in a ponzi scheme people expected to withdraw money, but in Zeek people are just happy to see their points grow and will not take out money.
He gave a flaw explaination that assuming Zeek take in 100 mil at the end of the day. Then base on Zeek formula, the pay out for that day is 150 mil, Zeek is down 50 mil…
He didn’t see any problem here, but move on to the next day because he believes that people will not withdraw their money but was just sitting there buying back and watching the points grow.
Troy couldn’t realize that his assumption is a flaw, so, I didn’t want to continue the conversation with him about Zeek business model any more. I, for one, am not in his formula of just watching the points grow.
If my sponsor didn’t misled me by telling me that I cannot do anything with my money until 90 days later, I would have withdrawn right from day one. And even if Zeek based on this assumption on his business model, Zeek then miss-represented its service/product to the people.
Any how, what need to be said already said by Zeek critics, so no point in continuing this conversation, especially with Troy.
Oh, in case you wonder about my experience with Zeek, here is what I posted in Troy’s forum. By the way, I like the critics’ site than Troy’s since you guys never asked me about “how long did I follow Zeek” in order to judge my knowledge about Zeek…. Another flaw arguement from Troy. But I don’t mind to let him know….
Troy can go ’round and ’round the Mulberry bush all day, it doesn’t change the fact that what the members did or didn’t do or thought they were doing has no bearing on what went on in Zeek internally.
THAT’S what made Zeek illegal.
Forget about what Zeek and Burks SAID they were doing, it’s what they actually did that got them into trouble.
The problem with that is that eventually Zeek would have had to pay out all that money, money that it didn’t have. It’s incredible that he couldn’t see that.
I suspected before the shutdown that Zeek didn’t have nearly enough money to cover everyone if they all decided to cash out 100%, which makes it a ponzi, but I had no idea that they had 3 billion outstanding points.
That, and the fact that you could rack up a million points in 2 years, and 25 [i]trillion[/i] points in 10 years should have shown anyone that it was a ponzi scheme.
True, people liked watching their points balances grow, but you can’t buy groceries or a new car using Zeek VIP points. Eventually people were going to want to get their money.
I used the theory in a different way, to explain one of the reasons for WHY people are attracted (or addicted) to MLM, Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, shopping, work, gambling, gaming, and any other areas. It will usually involve the brain’s reward center:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_center
The opposite of “reward center” is probably “control center” or something. Those two and other “centers” needs to be balanced against each other to work properly together.
Troy got a scoop of sorts… Seems Craddock is contacted EVERYBODY who had EVER gone up against the SEC.
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/zeek-rewards-alert-sec-attorney-travis-wilson-tells-former-rex-venture-gorup-communication-director-clifton-jolly-stopping-clawbacks-slim-to-no-chance/
I think Zeek was relying on the fact that people CANNOT withdraw all their money at once. And this is how Troy and many people argue that Zeek is not a Ponzi scheme.
Yes, people may have 2 mil points, but it is meaningless, and they cannot cash out 2 mil points at once, like in a typical traditional ponzi scheme. People can only cash out the rewards of the 2 mil points for each day, i.e. $30,000/day (assuming 1.5% rate) max.
Now the 100 mil of Troy’s example, technically speaking, at the end of the day, Zeek only has to pay approx $1.5 mil at the end of the day, NOT $150 mil- assuming people set 100% withdrawal – as Troy put it in his example.
It will continue like this for the next 90 days, with the approx pay out of $130 mil in total. After, 90 days, the 100 mil points are gone.
So, with in the time frame of 90 day the profit from the Zeekler penny auction and other venue will add up the 30 mil difference – yes 90 days to make $30 mil is quite a challenge, but it is not impossible to start with.
Now that with MLM structure, having distributors consuming or using their own service/product is usual, the mission to have $30 mil extra at the end of the 90 days period to pay out is a bit easy to achieve. Thus, I guess Troy would not have any doubt about this math calculation when it was repsented to him.
Many other factors weighed in such as talking to insiders, and with this calculation, this is probably why Troy is confident that Zeek was not run as a ponzi, and that SEC probably was too quick in their judge, and that Troy hopes to see the case argued in court.
I too was hoping to see its case argue in court, buy was disappointed at Burks for surrender it immediately, and this says a lot about the conclusion of whether or not Zeek is a ponzi scheme.
Personally, I think Troy’s more miffed about how did his close circle of friends didn’t warn him (in private, or hinted) about how badly he was mislead, even though they may be under attorney-client privilege.
The “feed through a straw” idea is basically “forced reinvestment”, which is STILL a characteristic of a Ponzi. The less money leaves the system, the longer can a Ponzi scheme run.
Madoff managed to run his Ponzi for almost 20 years because he only matched S&P500, but very consistently. He did not promise miracle returns.
Zeek’s “unique” in that it sorta promised 1.5% a day, but in reality it was paying 1/5th of that due to point expiration (reinvest 80%). If it really were paying 1.5% a day it would have been an HYIP that collapsed in 3 months.
Oh, and another point that Troy made in his arguement that if the next day, there is no more $100 mil then the profit sharing on that day would be $0.
It sounds good on theory, but in reality Mr. Burks will have to keep put in the average of 1.4% each day to keep more people coming in because the company failed to warn people about this scenario of if no more people buying…
They just said you only need to place once ad per day. So, technically speaking, to keep their promise and their business running and achieve the extra $30 mil at the end of the 90 days period, they MUST continue to in put the average of 1.4% per day on the reward of the points each day.
This is where a big red flag was waving in front of my face when I tried to defend Zeek business model with myself. And this is where I part from Troy.
I agree with you in this point, KC. Another point which made me wonder is this 20% withdrawal max scenario from Zeek. They play on people pyschology of greed and fear.
Each person only has one chance to invest with Zeek to the max of $10,000. If you withdraw all 100% out, you are forever finished with Zeek. One person one account for life time. Plus, each time you buy back 100% or 80% your sponsor is also benefited from it too. So, your sponsor usually an acquaintance will try to convince you on behalf of Zeek.
In my case, when I told my sponsor, who happened to be our relatives, that I have reasons to suspect Zeek is running a ponzi scheme and I’m going to withdraw all 100% and call it a quit, he was furious at me. And until today, the relationship is still in a bad shape.
There’s no point in arguing the “hypothetical” scenario, because it did not happen.
AND the math doesn’t support it.
SEC complaint said in July 2% of revenue (172 million) did not came from affiliates. half of that (1%) is 1.7 million. Yet Zeek paid out 170 million.
It paid out 100 TIMES MORE THAN IT SHOULD.
That proves, beyond shadow of doubt that the daily profit share is FICTION. With 3 billion points, paying out 1.7 million daily would make the RPP as… 0.0019%.
Yet RPP averages 1.4%.
Enough said.
Oops, that should have said 1.7 million MONTHLY. 0.0019% is correct for RPP, roughly speaking, closer to 0.0015% if you compound daily.
I came across this link in my previous research. Maybe it’ll help:
http://freedomofmind.com/Services/help3.php
I found another interesting video there (MLM.com), where an MLM lawyer explains WHY Zeek was an investment and WHY it was a fraudulent investment scheme (“Ponzi”).
It can be useful as a reply to all the “Why are they talking about investments? We purchased bids and earned money through WORK!” and all the “I was hired as an independent contractor in ZeekRewards”. 🙂Oh, and this video may help too:
I finally found an online copy of that NMBJ advertorial published by Laggos to advertise Zeek
http://www.wogscoaching.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Zeekrewards-Article-in-NMB-Journal-copy.pdf
Someone make a copy, please!
Did ANYBODY ever find that alleged lawfirm Bonefant & Weinburg that were supposedly SEC lawyers that’s gonna deal with SEC compliance? I can’t find such a lawfirm anywhere.
In one of the videos from MLM.com, he states that “Paul Burks was a novelty magician, and he even showed me some tricks. It was amazing all the thing he could do with his scarf”.
That didn’t exactly surprise me. He clearly had skill in creating illusions, directing people’s attention away from or towards something and similar skills.
I had an indirectly dialogue with him (through Troy) about the “tax issue for 2011”, on July 28th. He clearly tried to mislead me and direct my attention away from the RPP and repurchase of bids. And he clearly was experienced, too.
A copy of the dialogue was posted in another thread, “Zeek Rewards confirms $100,000’s in fraud occurring”, the thread where I placed most parts of the tax discussion. One of my conclusions was a red flag:
I have been trained to detect when other “sales people” tries to mislead me, e.g. when they try to direct my attention away from something or when they use other tricks. But Paul Burks could easily have fooled me if I hadn’t analysed the tax issue over and over again, in the weeks before that dialogue.
I have a suspiction that we can expect more illusions from Paul Burks. It wouldn’t surprise me if some parts are illusion, his lifestyle, “2 times cancer survivor”, “wife had a stroke”, “poor book-keeping”, “fooled by a Ponzi ring” or other parts are only illusions.
He’s very trained in misleading people, even Jimmy was convinced the “Cash available” was equal to real money for a long time. 🙂
For all we know, the guard outside his house can be part of an illusion, too. Paul Burks hasn’t been seen in public since the shutdown of Zeek, and hasn’t been willing to talk to anyone.
The guard outside his house clearly creates an impression of that there’s someone inside the house. I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t. 🙂
Bless you kind sir and may I beg your indulgence in posting this over at RS?
It’s a bit too late on a Saturday or perhaps too early on a Sunday to offer an informed opinion. But you have to love the disclaimer beginning with:
Let me translate:
THEY wrote this. THEY paid me to publish it. And because they paid me I don’t even care if what this article says is true. If it’s not true, don’t blame me.
Why does anyone care what this pimp says?
Haha, thanks KC. I watched half way, sorry it was too long. But the proplem is I don’t want to engage in any conversation with him, and he doesnt care whether I talk to him or not.
He is now busy hypnotizing his downline with Craddock planning of bringing back Zeek. He has a big job to do since he has almost a hundred people under him – our family members were among them.
@M_Norway… Hahaha.. Good one about the guard. I think maybe you’re right. If I were Paul, I would move because I don’t trust that one security guy would be able to hold off the anger crowd of hundred of thousand affiliates.
What you didn’t know is Burks was trained as a magician. 🙂 It’s in that NMBJ article, i think.
Here’s proof of his performance:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2213&dat=19900317&id=ITIxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CEUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6790,5173142
Darn it, it’s NOT that NMBJ article…
I *knew* read it today. Someone met Burks and Burks even did some magic tricks. Was it Laggos?
Craddock just pissed off Ted Nuyten of businessforhome.org by sending a “takedown” letter to Ted’s ISP, after Ted came right out and said Craddock is telling lies:
http://www.businessforhome.org/2012/09/zteambiz-ripping-off-former-zeek-affiliates/
It was mentioned by Clifton Jolly, the host in the MLM.com video “ZeekRewards and SEC”, at around 11:00. Paul Burks was a former C&W singer and magician.
Paul Burks was clearly trained in tricking people, but he failed because I knew exactly what I was looking for. I’m also less willing to be “directed” than most people.
Gee, I wonder if the affiliates who donated to Craddock consented to their funds being used to wage war against anyone who calls him out on his bullshit…
Once, just once, I wish one of these blowhards got called out on his/her empty threats and the case actually made it into a courtroom.
Ain’t gonna happen, unfortunately.
Both Troy Dooly and Keith Laggos have lowered the values of their individual “main projects”:
* Troy Dooly: MlmHelpDesk and other projects
* Keith Laggos: NMBJ and other projects
The Zeek story will continue to stick to their names for years to come, just like dog poop under the shoe sole (but far more sticky).
Troy clearly failed in his presentation of the “NMBJ review” on April 15th 2012. His prsentation was clearly “marketing junk” rather than factual information. And Keith Laggos failed in a similar way.
Using NMBJ as a marketing method in a similar way as Zeek did isn’t very attractive anymore. The flaws in that method became too visible in the Zeek case.
Recommending a method like that will be like recommending a restaurant owner to use “Eat at Joe’s restaurant, it’s clearly recommended by 5,000 flies”.
Excellent video AT #393 above. Several things got my attention –
One, love the analogy about driving without a license: Even though you may be really careful and only run a stop sign that day, then get stopped by a cop, it won’t matter that you were a really good driver up to that point.
What matters is that not only did you run the stop sign, but more importantly, you were driving without a license. Running the stop sign is relatively minor compared to having no license.
Two, where Jolly says that when he met Burks, he found out that his background was country/western singing and magic tricks. Jolly said he performed some amazing things with a scarf. Who sees similarities here?
Three, at about 12:00 on the counter, Ron Pullman makes the statement about how to recognize good leadership in a company: A good leader recognizes his weaknesses and if he/she really wants to succeed and do things right, he/she will surround him/herself with people who are strong in the areas of his/her weakness. (This can be seen in politics as well.)
The fact that Paul Burks surrounded himself with the ragtag group known as Zeek Management, and knew that the Founders Club folks where less than ethical… well, doesn’t that say alot?
This would be great to recommend to fence-sitters to watch. The “Bring Zeek Back” zealots are a lost cause.
I see Troy has made a statement about the “NMBJ review” from April 15th, and admitted it to be misleading. I only had a quick look at the video, but that sure is some progress from his side.
When dealing with serious critique, one of the worst strategies is to be too defensive, or to “feel” something without checking the facts. Good strategies will usually require being able to identify the facts, and maybe the different viewpoints, too.
My friend who tried to convince me to join zeek is still a true blue zeek fan. Crazy. He is, however, willing to join me in an investment scheme.
He’s only willing to hand over 1,000.00 of his own money, just to see if it works. Nuts I say, NUTS!
hahaha! what a jewel 🙂
Looks like the clawbacks are about to begin. This morning, I read that the receiver is seeking profits of participants. http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/morning-edition/2012/09/zeekrewards-receiver-to-seek-profits.html
Ken Bell says this “Among those from whom we intend to recover assets are those affiliates who took more out of Rex Ventures than they put in,” he writes.
“Many of you received little or nothing from this enterprise. In order to make everyone as whole as possible, those who profited from participating should surrender their gains.”
read more on the receiver’s website: http://www.zeekrewardsreceivership.com
That part will probably become very popular among lots of people, eagerly waiting for a chance to pay back money they considered to be their own. 🙂
I can clearly understand the ones who wants to put up a legal defence, but I haven’t been impressed by their methods yet. Their defence plans seems more to be related to emotional issues than to what they actually can have a chance to win. It’s more “We WANT …” than “We are able to …” in their plans.
An emergency motion to temporarily freeze the bank and brokerage accounts of the largest net winners and insiders should be filed very soon.
Illusionists will usually use methods very close to people’s own ideas for “how things works”, and I can find many such methods in Zeek.
Paul Burks probably knew alot about how people think and feel, and what they usually can be willing to believe in. And he probably knew about some psychological effects, e.g. how to make people fool themselves and believe in their own imaginations.
During the 9 months from January till now, I have read several theories from lots of different people where they clearly have fooled themselves.
Some examples:
* Theories about how the daily ad worked, how EFFECTIVE those ads really were. 🙂
* Made up stories about all the customers people had got from the daily ads, where they had started to believe in their own stories, but avoided questions about details.
* Penny auction theories, e.g. about addiction. But they usually didn’t have any customers that could get addicted.
All Paul Burks had to do was to provide people with a basic set of ideas, and some visual effects to confirm those ideas. Other than that, people were usually able to add their own ideas, theories and explanations to make it become even more believable.
PSYCHOLOGICAL INSIGHT
He also used some psychological insight. “The natural status” of people’s attention is to be focused on themselves, both literally and figuratively speaking. So people will focus on their OWN income from Zeek rather than the total payouts to ALL affiliates, making the idea of profit from penny auctions become more believable.
I haven’t analysed this very deeply, so this was just some examples. But Paul Burks was clearly trained in making people believe in illusions of their own ideas. And people filled in most parts of it themselves.
ANOTHER MYSTERY
It really makes me wonder about the guard outside Paul Burks’ house. People will usually fill in the details in a story where the guard is guarding someone inside that house, someone who wants to be guarded from unwanted visitors. But it can also be used as an ILLUSION.
So what can we expect from an illusionist? Is he INSIDE the house, guarded against unwanted visitors. Or is the guard hired to act as an important part of an illusion, to give the impression that Paul Burks is inside the house?
“That question and other important questions will be answered in the next episode of ‘Soap'”. 🙂
I think they have two motives. First, they are worried about clawbacks and their own legal bills and have duped the dupable into contributing to their own personal legal defense/clawback fund.
The other motive is to appear to be tough and loyal leaders that will put them into position to take their followers into the next Ponzi deal so they can repeat their Zeek performance. They know exactly what they are doing.
Something interesting I was reading this morning:
Money-Laundering Inquiry Is Said to Aim at U.S. Banks
I’m wondering if this will make things more difficult in the future for these various schemes.
To clarify, illusionist is very good at giving people the impression that something has happened, when it didn’t. That’ why it’s an illusion. It’s not real.
For example, I have a ball (wad of aluminum foil, to borrow Penn and Teller’s explanation) in my hand. I put the cup down, opening facing the table surface, but just before I put it all the way down I slip the ball under the cup. You were not expecting that, so you’re all surprised when I “reveal” the ball under the cup.
The ball didn’t magically “pass through” the cup, though I gave you the impression that it did.
Here’s an Youtube Video where Penn and Teller shows you exactly how it’s done:
Makes you wonder, doesn’ it?
It made the story become more interesting, more appealing to the imagination and the right side of the brain. I can clearly visualize Paul Burks on a remote island with a couple of margueritas, enjoying his luxury life under a new name. While the guard outside his house in Lexington ccontinues to act as an illusion. 🙂
And the worst part: I’m only partially joking. I’m pretty sure we will see some other illusions from Paul Burks, but I haven’t identified them yet.
Paul Burks is skilled in “pushing the right buttons”. He usually seems to know which buttons to push and HOW to push them. Most of the time, people have been manipulated into believing something that later turns out to be false. I don’t think that pattern has changed much.
Paul Burks knew about a potential problem already in December 2011 / January 2012, in the 1099’s and the company’s book-keeping. He knew it would become a high risk for auditing by the IRS around August / September 2012.
He has probably done something between December 2011 and the shutdown in August 2012 to prepare for the situation.
Being a “right brainer,” it’s the part of this whole Zeek thing that appeals to me most. While the Ponzi/biz model debates are very interesting and I try to follow you guys, I get way more interested when I read something about the behavior of the perpetrators.
My 8-year-old has been watching this show lately, “Breaking the Magician’s Code: Magic’s Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed”.
It’s rather fascinating stuff, IMO. It’s also a kind of a cool lesson for the kiddo to learn not to believe everything you see, by demonstrating in detail why you were fooled by the illusion.
On a lighter note – it’s always five o’clock somewhere, right?
Another Dispatch article by Nash Dunn, pretty much the same information in posts in the past day or so about the latest announcement concerning voluntary clawbacks.
Additionally, Dunn’s article confirms that the Secret Service confirmed that the investigation is progressing.
http://www.the-dispatch.com/article/20120916/NEWS/120919986/1005?p=3&tc=pg
ASDUpdates Don Ryan just got us some new Zeek court documents. Each of the payment processors have about 20 mil.
Burks signed a consent claiming that everything Ken Bell dug up are all the assets that exist for Zeek, and the court ordered Ken Bell to come up with a liquidation plan by October 8 of all Zeek assets such as corp HQ, warehouse, office equipment, and such.
THEN comes the clawbacks. 🙂
Does anyone have a list of RVG employees?
I just got something from someone claiming to be an ex employee, could be interesting. If it’s legit it’ll take me a few days to go through it.
Probably easier to give us the name. Apart from the ringleaders most of the other employees worked behind the scenes.
Found direct evidence of this pseudo-compliance.
Before August 2011, if you buy bids, you get RPP. You don’t even need to give it away.
Apparently, they hire Nehra and Waak then, and one of them approved of the change that if the the affiliates buy the bids, but “give them away” (to either sponsored customers or other affiliates) then they get RPP. Bids given away expire in 30 days.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wygB3_iQHzEJ:zeekrewardsnews.com/2011/08/bid-giveaway/+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
It’s in the asset list on the ASDUpdates.com files site.
Gee, it’s a good thing Zeek had 4 attorneys, an accountant, a compliance officer, a compliance consultant and a law firm on board or they could have got themselves into trouble.
Yeah prior to August 2011 it was just a straight up 125% guaranteed ROI investment scheme.
You don’t launch something like that, let your group of 12 and executive management get rich and then try to go legit. Doesn’t work.
Doc #28… it’s a Florida attorney filing to represent Internet Dynamo, Inc., their “dedicated server farm” in Miami. (Sunbiz: MUJICA, ALBERTO, 16275 SW 88TH ST UNIT 136, MIAMI FL 33196). A quick search of that address also leads to a company called Reputation Technologies Inc.
From a 2007 press release: “About Reputation Technologies Inc. A Miami, Florida based firm founded by Tony and Alberto Mujica, and co-founded by David Meynarez and Michael VanBeneden, in January 2002 on the principles of quality, service and integrity. ”
Odd… the company “Reputation Technologies Inc.” seems to be based out of Redwood, California. I wonder if they’re even related, or if Mujica sold the business.
I agreed not to. The person is somewhat worried but I get the impression pretty pissed off, too. IN addition to losing a job there’s a loss of savings in the affiliate program
LOL… Yep, this was what we were hearing since March, wasn’t it? “There’s no way Zeek could be a ponzi. They hired LAWYERS!”
Even now, people like my in-laws are convinced that since they hired lawyers and “some guy from the SEC told them that their business was legal” that the SEC illegally shut down a legitimate business.
Hmm, well, it looks by the title that this is a legit source.
Wow, this could be a lot of fun.
I wonder what was in the warehouse….
“Larry Snow is currently renting a portion of this office building for a coin-operated Landromat” is the best answer I can give you, based on my parapsychological skills (= reading the footnotes). 🙂
What, no mention of the 10 story building that RVG bought in that document? Or was that supposed to happen right after Paul made the changes to bring in more retail revenue and make Zeek totally legit?
Kettner’s latest Plan C, D, or is it XYZ? Just got this email from the Samauri – I cannot tell you how excited I am to join this new venture!!!!! Here’s the pitch –
Had a phone call for something like this the first week Zeek collapsed…yesterday got an email from some woman I never heard of pitching another. No way would anyone have my phone number and email address unless insiders got ahold of it.
For sure our names/information have been sold to others in the MLM world…and probably worse.
Make sure to ASK where they have got your phone number from, for each of those calls (if you receive more calls).
The ones who have called you have probably bought name, number and email as “quality leads” from a company, bought in good faith. It’s nothing wrong in that, but somewhere in that system the “good faith” theory will fail.
The data can either be from Zeek’s database or from someone’s private database — probably someone in your upline.
If you are able to get the name of a company, e.g. “I have bought it as quality leads from company XX”, it can be possible to prevent further use of the whole database (if it is a copy of Zeek’s database).
I don’t understand “prevent further use of the whole database”. Are you saying that if I find out who the seller/provider of my e-mail and/or phone information, that I should report this to someone???
I emailed the woman yesterday asking how she got my email address. I haven’t heard back. She has her name, website, phone #.
What you do is you threaten to sue her under the Federal CANSPAM act and “Do Not Call” list (sorta, but she doesn’t know that…) unless she explains where she got the info, and NEVER call you again. If she hangs up, publicize her on the spam block lists.
It depends on what kind of database it is.
Zeek’s database had more information than a “personal use database” used by your upline. Zeek’s database should preferrably be stopped from sale or use.
If it’s a personal database then it’s not that important, it’s just a “contact list” for uplines/downlines. If it’s Zeek’s database then it’s more serious and probably illegal to use, sell or buy. I’m not familiar with the laws in the U.S., but the EU has very strict rules for databases.
Information can help you to identify whether it’s Zeek’s database or a personal one.
Zeek’s database belongs to the Receivership, including all the copies of it. It has been involved in a possible crime, so it should normally NOT be tradeable.
On my “to do” list tomorrow and/or Thursday. Thanks!
I’m thinking it’s Dave Kettner’s contact list. I won’t bore you with the why’s at this point. But am doing a little process of elimination, checking with others who may have gotten similar emails.
In any event, I never gave him permission to share my information with others. It ticks me off. Technically I’m not in his downline but subscribed to his newsletter so that I could stay apprised of what that group is up to. So, that means he’s giving away my info or selling it.
I’m gonna follow K.Chang’s advice with all of them…and would urge other Zeek affiliates to do the same. Dave and his cohorts are making it way too easy for these piranhas to feed off of us.
From Buddha: 🙂
1. Have the right view
2. Have the right intentions
You can CHOOSE between different viewpoints. When you want to get information from someone, you can’t have a “threatening” viewpoint or intentions.
So the best strategy is probably to RELAX, and start from a point where you don’t feel it is a problem, and try to get a little more information as best as you can.
The person who has called you or sent email is NOT the problem here, and shouldn’t be treated like it either.
Personally, I’m mostly CURIOUS about it. My guess is that Name and phone number has been bought as “quality leads”, from a company selling stuff like that. I’m curious about WHICH company, if it’s one of the fake customer companies connected to Zeek or another company.
Then I’m curious about what type of database it is, a copy of Zeek’s database or something else. So for the first 5 steps I’m only interested in factual information, and I have NO other intentions. Any intentions will come later, when I know what it’s all about.
With a viewpoint like that and the lack of negative intentions, it’s much easier to get answers from people.
Wow, you got my number. I will be very diplomatic and remember my grandma used to say “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” To which I have my own p.s. sometimes, “When the honey doesn’t work, bring out the flyswatter.”
.
I am curious, though, and that will be my mindset. Thanks!
🙂
You can always do both… If she doesn’t cooperate, then use the threat.
Remember, carrot and stick work together. 😀
Has anyone noticed all the Zeek copycats popping up? Bluebirdbids, Funkyshark etc.. All these are claiming a penny auction is the “Backbone” of the profits.
Most of them are in “Pre-Launch” offering founder positions from 500.00 to 1000.00. I was contacted by someone I know to join BBB. When I looked into the site I told him to bewere because there is no owner info.
a/k/a honey and flyswatter. 🙂
There are three I’m planning to contact…
Oh, yes. Oz has a special ’roundup’
https://behindmlm.com/companies/mlm-penny-auction-opportunity-prelaunch-roundup/
I’m penning my “genre review” soon.
SOP when a “next big thing” HYIP ponzi closes.
Believe it or not, there are still new “autosurf” ponzis being launched every week, 4 years after the very public collapse and subsequent prosecution of AdSurf Daily.
In practical terms, fraudsters see Zeek members as being “pre qualified” targets for their scams.
IOW, ex Zeeklers have already been conditioned to believe 1% a day is possible, Penny Auctions are uber profitable and the Ebil Gubmint is responsible for their losses.
Out of the rumoured million plus members of Zeek, they only need to pick up 100,000 or so new HYIP players and they’re happy.
The sad part is the person who contacted me about BBB, Was also big in zeek and they are not sure what to.
He has realized, with what I showed him about BBB, that they are being scammed again. He told me that some of the zeek higher ups are worried because they spent all the money they made and dont know how they are going deal with the clawbacks or just paying the bills.
I can see one flaw. You haven’t analysed the problem, or you have analysed in a similar way as when SpeakAsians drew the conclusion that negative news was the cause of the problem, why SpeakAsia was shut down.
People will focus on what they see right in front of their own eyes. So when someone calls with an MLM-offer, that person will be identified to be the real problem. But the cause of the problem is somewhere earlier in the chain, at the source of the information rather than where the symptom becomes visible.
STRATEGIES:
* Flyswatter? Legal threats is usually a bad strategy, and it can probably be confirmed by several people who have tried similar strategies here. You can find one of the examples under “Carbon Copy Pro”.
* Honey? Do you really FEEL like that? Most people are not THAT good in acting, so they send out a confusing set of signals rather than the real thing. Troy Dooly have failed using strategies like that, over and over again.
For the honey strategy to work, it will usually have to be REAL. Often people will only fool themselves rather than the other person if they try that strategy.
For the flyswatter strategy to work, you will usually need to have a solid foundation in facts, with no weak points.
Here’s an imaginary answer from me to a CANSPAM complaint:
“She has voluntarily signed up on a mailing list, with name, address, phone number and email-address. We have sent her lot of newsletters and updates during 3 or 4 months. And now she suddenly starts to complain when we call her, instead of just signing off?”
Experienced people can have lots of counter strategies, so legal threats are usually NOT a good idea. Suddenly you can end up with a very weak case.
Quite a few of them are of the “the evil gummint shut down our legitimate money making business” mindset, so it’s totally not out of the question that they’d join yet another ponzi which operates virtually the same.
I’m just glad that some people are seeing through the BS and recognize a new scam for what it is.
Seems like Craddock is suggesting people not to file out the claim form to get their money back. What a wicked man!
But I wonder how Zeek Receiver going to procceed the refund. I read from the last CEP case, the victims didn’t have to file out or do anything. The Receiver just put out a list with the victim names and the amount.
If it is not correct then the victims will have to file out a special claim form to prove their claim. If the amount is correct, then they don’t have to do anything, and the Receiver will automatically send them the check once the case is wrap up.
Receiver stated that soon he’ll put out a survey form (not a claim form yet). it’s in his updates on his website.
He has October 8 to present a liquidation plan to the judge. Once that’s in place, then comes the clawbacks. THEN you can talk about restitution.
About a week after Zeek was shut down, my credit card that I used to purchase bids through Solid Trust Pay, showed up with 34 fraudulent charges back to back of $19.99 each.
That card had never been used anywhere other than once at a local and trusted restaurant, and once at my grocery store I have done business with for years. The card was new.
I, of course put a lock down, shut down of everything. And now I will have to have my credit and my identity monitored for the rest of my life.
The problem is when they are surrounded by like-minded peole (all of who are also insane), they can’t get out of that little insane world. It’s called “communal reinforcement”.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/09/bad-argument-communal-reinforcement.html
That’s not entirely correct.
The receiver required members to register with the receivership.
He then verified the claimant was eligible and in what amount.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) many members took the advice of the anti government people and didn’t register
Around 11,000 people did register of whom 8,400 were verified, each receiving 100% remission of their losses.
To date, the government has returned about $58.8 million of the approx. $80 million seized from AdSurf Daily and prosecutors have recently (August 2012) applied to the court for permission to re open the remissions process for members who may have missed the January 2011 remissions filing deadline.
Anyone being told otherwise by their Zeek contacts is being lied to.
That, BTW, was with regard to the latest big HYIP ponzi collapse, that of AdSurf Daily.
The CEP case was much smaller than either ASD or Zeek, coming in at around $12million in total.
Many long term observers of the HYIP ponzi scene know from experience that victims losing money is just one side effect of becoming involved with the underworld of get-rich-quick schemes and HYIP ponzi scams.
Most n00b members of Zeek would never have even been aware of non bank payment processors before becoming involved, yet they happily signed up and gave up personal details.
Many people just blindly took Zeeks’ word its’ “Hong Kong” and “Cyprus” banks were secure and legit.
I’m sure yours won’t be the last identity theft and credit card ripoff stories to come out of the Zeek fiasco.
The card I used to pay for my monthly subscription had 35 charges all back-to-back for the same amount. I disputed it but interesting to see someone else also had this anomaly.
If the scammer had just made one charge for $700 I might never have seen it.
Also am disappointed the bank didn’t stop it automatically after the 20th charge for the same amount within seconds of the last, they’d realize it was either fraudulent or some really bad web application submitting repeated transactions.
Ok, I think I have a little problem. A few final weeks before Zeek was shut down, I decided to pull out all money and quit as I suspected I might be in the middle of a ponzi scheme.
What I did was, I changed all my personal info in the back office to some fake info, including credit cards to prevent ID theft later on. The only thing was real was my name for the purpose of withdrawing money – I did the same for the entire family….
Ok now… I wonder what kind of info does the Receiver need to verify…. Oh great, I think we’re gonna have a difficult time with the registering process later on.
Worry about that bridge when you actually reach it. (Better if you remember what that “fake info” was, but it’s not essential)
And to Jimmy who also has had fraudulent charges… yes, we are all going to have to watch our backs a very long time.
I cancelled all credit cards associated with Zeek one to two days after the collapse, so I seem to be okay with that one. The Social Security # is the one that concerns me. I would recommend Lifelock, unless you know of another service that others have used. We’ve had it for years and get regular updates, etc.
We were notified several years ago that an application for credit was made… it was my app, so it proved itself to me then. We are upgrading to the deluxe package when our membership rolls around in a month or so which will protect checking accounts, etc.
We had considered getting a Zeek account in our business…thankfully we did not do it.
Also, thanks for sharing your bad experience with the fraudulent charges. I’m going to contact my little group of friends I got into Zeek and let them know to be sure to cancel their cards and check them carefully. I know several of them took my advice and cancelled right away.
So, what we can expect here is the Kettner/Disner types are going to tell people not to file in this case either. I guess the reasoning there is less people to have to be paid out of the receiver funds, which means more for them with less clawbacks, etc.
Carpe, you are right….what a wicked man!!!!!
Less claimants would surely mean a larger prorata distribution for those that do eventually have approved claims but I think the intention for now (given their legal posture) is not to acknowledge the authority and legitimacy of the Receivership in any way.
We’re all assuming here that those who were advising against submitting claims were not doing so themselves.
I don’t believe for one second that was the case.
By the time this is finished (Zeek, that is) most sensible people will have realized they have inadvertently walked into a criminal underworld the likes of which they could never have begun to imagine existed pre Zeek.
A world of scams within scams within scams, that is.
Count me as one of those people.
I was aware of these “opportunities” and knew to stay away, but I had NO IDEA the extent of and number of these things before my little hometown was caught up in the Zeek saga.
It is stunning how many of them there are, and how quickly more pop up. But most disturbing are the serial scammers who seem to live their lives in this world and live to perpetrate these mindless, soulless scams.
Back in late August, there were a lot of statements from Craddock/Kettner/etc. on the Affiliates United FB page about having “PROOF’.
AUGUST 23:
AUGUST 24:
AUGUST 26:
Now there are no statements on that FB page prior to August 27.
How’s all that “PROOF” working out for them now? It looks like if they had such strong “PROOF”, their efforts would have moved along a lot quicker than they have up to now?!?!??
I’m well aware of communal reinforcement. My in-laws are also very religious as are most of the other Zeek victims around here, so of course they’ll keep believing it when “everyone else” also keeps believing it.
It’s the reason a lot of MLM’s are compared to cults, because the mindsets are very similar. Surround yourself with like-minded people, don’t listen to any negativity, and shun or speak bad about any naysayers.
Anyone want to explain how they got all that “proof” from Zeek’s corporate office after the SEC took over the entire office along with all files, etc.?
I’m guessing this “proof” is nothing more than, “the lawyers told Zeek months ago that their business was legal.”
I share your basic cynicism as there is no doubt that people advise one thing and do another.
But if, as I believe, the Zteambiz “core group” is comprised entirely of Zeek’s net winners then it is hard to imagine what benefit that group gains by filing a claim for themselves no matter what the net losers do.
Its far more likely the “core” will be the object of clawbacks than receive any future payout from a claim against the estate.
But, as is often said nothing ventured then nothing gained.”
Jimmy, did you use Solid Trust Pay?
You have just described one of the main problems = people’s willingness to believe in something, extended to a “community” or a “group”.
People are usually relatively “rational” when they act as INDIVIDUALS, acting as “human beings” rather than in complicated “social roles” where they are most likely to follow some “group rules” or something.
I have seen several occasions where typical “groups” has been the main target for scams, probably because it’s more easy to identify how to convince them about something, and they will also react more slowly than individuals.
MLM and “schemes” can have an overweight of people in their 50’ies or 60’ies in some cases, while other schemes seems to attract younger participants. Or they can be directed towards some other factors than age, e.g. some belief systems (success orientated people, selfdev orientated people, and so on).
So being “too identifiable” will also make you become more vulnerable to some scams. And that’s a big part of the problem.
Your in-laws would probably have managed the situation better if they had become more flexible in their mindsets.
Sometimes I can clearly see WHY people become victims, in other cases than MLM and scams. Often it is related to a too onesided focus, and to the person’s own “core values”, e.g. the idea of honesty (believing all other people always will follow the same idea as themselves = being honest rather than being greedy).
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions”, and with beliefs that only works in other situations than where they have been applied.
The “LEGAL” page on the zteambiz website shows the following:
Why hasn’t anyone posted the details of yesterday’s announcement on here?
(come on, you guys can come up with some good ones on this one!)
Here’s something that will make some of you smile …
I checked the front page of MlmHelpDesk right now, to count the number of comments related to various types of articles:
TOTAL:
Zeek 199 comments / 4 articles = 49.75 per article
Other 5 comments / 4 articles = 1.25 per article
CONCLUSION:
* His “normal” articles doesn’t seem to be very popular.
* Zeek made the blog become more popular.
* but Zeek also attracted comments from critics, adding more “meaningful content” to the blog than what it had before.
So the final conclusion will be that his blog became more popular when other people started to add more meaningful content to it, making it become more useable. 🙂
Flexible they are not. Once they get an idea in their head, something they want to believe, they fall into true believer mode. They can also be very intolerant of differing beliefs.
I, personally, don’t consider myself much of a follower and tend to look at things from all points of view before making my mind up on it. I’m not saying I never let personal bias enter my thinking, but I at least try to limit it.
IMHO, they have NO proof other than “Grimes, Waak, Nehra, and Laggos looked it over”. None of them is going to talk to Craddock, who’s not with the company. Attorney-client privilege and all that.
So it was shoved under the carpet and never mentioned again. “It never existed.”
Compare all their announcements and you’ll notice a LOT of shifting objectives, i.e. “moving goalpost”.
What’s the bet these records are all of the people who made money in the scheme?
Hayyyyyho gooood-bye. Craddock is running around telling everyone the SEC is full of shit, meanwhile Burns is handing over financial records detailing the top players in the scheme.
Bring on the clawbacks already and name the “Craddock 12”!
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2012/09/19/zeek-update-thousands-of-records-filed-under-seal/