Zeek Rewards: “No new member $$$ in, no $$$ out”
An e-wallet, as the name suggests, is an electronic wallet that you fund with real money.
After funding your account you’re then able to electronically send money all over the world to people or companies, with the idea being that after the money is sent, the receiving party is able to withdraw the money out.
When this withdrawal occurs, typically the e-wallet provider takes their cut – either via a flat rate fee and/or charging a percentage of the withdrawn amount.
As far as MLM companies and paying commissions out via an e-wallet goes, with a leadtime of anywhere up to a month the company knows exactly how much is being requested by their members.
Subsequently they have ample time to make sure they’ve funded their e-wallet account with enough money so that when they send the e-wallet company instructions on who to pay out and how much, things run smoothly.
Whether the MLM company is using one e-wallet provider or twenty, the process is the same.
Despite this reality, according to Zeek Rewards’ COO Dawn Wright-Olivares this is not how e-wallet payment solutions work.
She insists that unless company members deposit money into an e-wallet account first, then the company is entirely unable to pay out commissions using that e-wallet provider.
In a somewhat revealing leadership call hosted on June 25th 2012, Wright-Olivares (photo right with MLM Helpdesk’s Troy Dooly) explained e-wallet solutions as being “lumps of leather” that needed to be filled with money before money could be withdrawn from them.
That much is true. An MLM company tracks commission requests to an e-wallet provider, transfers the appropriate amount of money from the company bank account(s) and then sends off the commission requests to the e-wallet provider so that they can process them and issue payment from the company’s e-wallet account.
Or as NXPay describe the process:
Your company establishes an NxPay account whereby you (the company) deposit your payroll / commissions funds (by check, wire transfer or ACH).
Then each of your independent representatives establishes an NxPay account as well.
Once all of the accounts have been set-up, your company creates a spreadsheet (within your NxPay account) that tells NxPay® how you want to distribute the funds deposited.
“Payroll / commission funds” is the money the MLM company deposits into NXPay to cover commissions, and the spreadsheet they send NXPay details who is to be paid how much (based on previous commission requests from their members).
Straightforwardly simple right?
Not so with Zeek Rewards. Zeek COO Dawn Wright-Olivares claims that Zeek Rewards are only able to pay out commissions to their members once new and existing members have injected enough new money into Zeek Rewards’ e-wallet accounts to cover commission requests.
On yesterday’s June 25th Zeek Rewards leadership call, Wright-Olivares told company affiliates that
[3:45] The issue that we’ve had with NXPay, alright everybody wants to know “just turn the lights back on!”.
Okay, so guys it’s like when you take out your wallet or purse from your back pocket, whatever is in there that you personally put in there, is the only money okay that you can go ahead and pay for your next grocery trip with.
Okay, you might have cards in there, you might have checks in there but, if we’re talking cash, which is how an e-wallet works, whatever you guys (Zeek Rewards affiliates) have used to go ahead and make purchases from us with okay, is what’s in the e-wallet that we can turn around and pay payroll with. It’s not a depositing bank account.
[4:50] Whatever you guys (the affiliates) have purchased stuff from Zeek with, is what we can then turn around and pay commissions with.
You can’t just go in there with your bag of money and go “here” (laughter).
Yet that’s precisely how e-wallets work. Just like affiliates have to fund their e-wallet accounts with outside money (typically from a bank account), so to do Zeek Rewards have the capability to fund their e-wallets from their own bank accounts.
Alarmingly, Wright-Olivares appears to be stressing that, despite all the talk about Zeekler auctions generating profits, Zeek Rewards pays out affiliate commissions exclusively from affiliate money going into the company.
No new affiliate money coming in? No commissions are paid out, at least not via the e-wallet solution you might choose.
Out of the three e-wallet providers Zeek Rewards uses, NXPay was easily the cheapest when it came to withdrawal fees, being the only one to offer a low flat-rate fee.
As such, despite taking deposits into their NXPay account for a few months before enabling withdrawals, upon accepting withdrawal requests it was a mere few weeks before funds were exhausted and Zeek Rewards turned off NXPay withdrawals again.
At the time of publication only deposits into Zeek Rewards are possible via NXPay, with Wright-Olivares explaining to affiliates that
[5:05] The more you go ahead and convert your purchasing from Zeek Rewards through NXPay, the more we can afford to pay out in commissions from NXPay.
[5:40] It’s up to you whether there’s enough money in NXPay to pay everybody who’s asking to utilise that e-wallet for their income.
[6:13] If you’re somebody who wants to withdraw your commission checks through NXPay, then make your purchases through NXPay. What goes in can come back out.
Rather than Zeek Rewards fund their e-wallets as required for commission payouts on a rolling basis (which is just plain common-sense), it seems Zeek Rewards run their e-wallet accounts as somewhat of a vault.
This is confirmed in Wright-Olivares explanation as to why they haven’t had to remove Solid Trust Pay and Alert Pay. It’s because Zeek Rewards has
[5:52] been using Alert Pay and Solid Trust Pay for a really long time, so those balances have a lot more in them so they… so everybody can go ahead and request cash through them and there’s plenty in there because you’ve (the affiliates) have been purchasing so much through them.
One strong point of contention over the long-term sustainability and viability of Zeek Rewards’ business model has been disclosure of the percentage of affiliate money that is pumped into commissions paid out to affiliates.
Zeek Rewards claim this percentage amount is proprietary information and during a recent Aces Radio live interview, Troy Dooly from MLM HelpDesk (credited as a ‘Zeek Rewards Training Consultant’ at their last “Red Carpet” event), even went so far as to claim that should Zeek Rewards answer that question, they’d be putting themselves out of compliance because ‘no network marketing company pays out from the acquisition of affiliates‘.
Yet here we have the Chief Operating Officer of Zeek Rewards telling affiliates on a company call that unless affiliates (new or existing) deposit more funds into the scheme via way of internal consumption purchases, they can’t pay out commissions.
In claiming that their Solid Trust Pay and Alert Pay accounts are so well-funded why Zeek Rewards doesn’t just withdraw and transfer this money into their NXPay account to cover commissions (remember, they have a two-week grace period on requested commission withdrawal amounts), is a mystery.
Meanwhile an even bigger question mark looms still over why Zeek Rewards made such a dedicated push towards electronic commissions after scrapping the sending out of checks which, to the best of my knowledge, they never missed a beat paying out commissions with.
The cynic in me would point to this recent admission and appeal to affiliates to deposit more funds into Zeek Rewards so that they can pay out commissions as ongoing evidence in support that they are, quite obviously, running a giant Ponzi scheme between affiliates that has nothing to do with their Zeekler auctions.
If you consider that for each dollar Zeek Rewards affiliates spend with Zeek Rewards (excluding membership fees) attracts a >100% ROI via the bid scheme, it’s blatantly obvious that sooner or later the Solid Trust Pay and Alert Pay balances wouldn’t cover commission payouts to all their affiliates.
The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how many e-wallet solutions you use, you can’t pay out more than affiliates are pumping into the company. And that’s pretty much what Dawn stated on yesterday’s leadership call.
And just so we’re clear it wasn’t some random once off misunderstanding either, the same information about affiliates needing to deposit more with the company before they could pay out was repeated on both company calls for the evening.
Looking forward it appears that Zeek Rewards affiliates either have the choice of using e-wallet solutions that attract hefty fees for those with large withdrawal requests, or are stuck waiting for new and existing members to deposit more money into NXPay so that Zeek can use this money to pay out existing affiliates.
Those affiliates who have already invested the maximum allowable $10,000 into the scheme can literally do nothing but wait, unable to personally deposit more money into the company.
But remember folks, this is not an investment scheme, Zeek Rewards aren’t paying out commissions with future money they don’t have yet and all the company revenue doesn’t come from Zeek Rewards affiliates, but rather from the Zeekler penny auctions.
Right you are Zeek Rewards Compliance Department, right you are.
It seems as though a reliable company that truly put their distributors first would over-fund the e-wallets just in case this sort of situation happens.
Sounds to me like she’s dangerously close to admitting that it’s a Ponzi scheme.
I thought that ALL the money paid out to affiliates was 50% of the daily zeekler.com take? Why couldn’t they put some of that money into their NXPay account, especially if they have thousands of paying customers?
I wonder, though, if they’re starting to run out of money or something. Like e said, if they were smart (or even cared) they’d overfund their NXPay account to make sure affiliates get paid, but perhaps this isn’t possible.
Ya they are definitely running out of money. LOL
…….while a lot of people are LOL all the to the bank including me and everyone I have referred.
I’m fairly astounded that Dawn was so incautious as to admit this, more than once and in more than one place. I’m looking forward to her retraction and it’s going to be a doozy.
One thing I’ve had to give grudging respect to her and Paul about is how good they’ve been at crafting their excuses. I get it, they understand that their target market isn’t people who read blogs like this one, it’s people who read blogs like Troy’s.
Of course we see things differently than they do, what we see as huge red flags can be hand waved off as “growing pains” to people who haven’t seen this all before, far too many times.
But Dawn needs to come up with a whopper of an explanation and in a big damn hurry. She admitted and in no uncertain terms that Zeek Rewards buisness model is out of compliance with the laws of mathematics.
And it’s no longer folks like us who recognize it, the members are starting to catch on too.
Just be careful about spending that money, because if the government comes asking for it back, you might be in trouble.
@John
Sorry, what was your point again, that Ponzi schemes pay out until they run out of new investor money?
Yawn. Paying out commissions does not legitimise a business model.
Hey Oz,
Thanks for all you do as a watchdog in the MLM business.
I respect you and Troy even though you have different perspectives on ZR.
Having worked for an affiliate business for a number of years I know how growth can certainly cause issues that need to be addressed, so I have some empathy for what ZR must be going through.
On the other hand, everybody on here seems to raise important questions regarding ZR’s business model that indicate issues far beyond JUST “growing pains”.
The weeks and months ahead should be quite interesting.
I’d just like to add that Oliveras DID say that previously arranged NX Pay commission payments (from prior to the option being removed) were still going to happen, i.e. the 6/25 commission. It DID NOT.
That’s great, just remember that all that money probably came from other affiliates, though I guess since you never knew them (no names, no faces) it’s much easier to pretend they don’t exist.
IMHO, Troy is approaching ZR from a purely MLM perspective, and is failing to APPRECIATE the potential Ponzi scheme angle.
I just want to make sure if i understand this right. There are basically three e wallets. ZEEK endourses NX PAY the first and most, with the logical low flat rate.
Majority affiliates obviously go with that only to have that turned around as the one with insuficent funds. With already long delays in tranfers this must of helped zeek management alot, go figure.
Its the total opposite as what she is stating. AFFILATES HAVE THE POINTS-ZEEK DONT HAVE ENOUGH CASH is the truth.
Even Troy Dooly acknowledges something’s not right in Zeekland, though he’s waiting for Zeek’s PR spin angle.
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/breaking-zeek-rewards-alert-we-are-waiting-clearification-from-last-nights-leadership-call/
@Observer — Payment processors need SOMEBODY to put in funds to pay people. They *do* work much like a bank. You put in 1000, you pay from that 1000 you put in.
If Zeek is so f-ing profitable, Zeek should be full of cash for deposit, and even International wire transfer doesn’t take a whole week. And here you have COO saying that AFFILIATES PAY ZEEK WITH NXPAY so other affiliates can get paid through NXPAY, implying that Zeek is NOT putting any money into NXPAY, directly contradicting how a payment processor works.
A PAYMENT PROCESSOR doesn’t generate money. That money must come from SOMEWHERE, usually a bank. And Zeek COO Dawn basically says that they are NOT adding money into Zeek’s NXPay account (they can’t? or they won’t?) from external sources.
Dawn have admitted through MULTIPLE statements that they are running a Ponzi scheme, at least through NXPay. There is no external revenue. Affiliates paying affiliates. Hah!
And it’s a PRE-RECORDED MONOLOGUE, so nobody was asking her any tough question. It’s a SELF-ADMISSION.
“It just slipped out.” Hah.
Whats there to clearify… She made it clear that it is a ponzi short on funds.
Agreed. Plus he knows a lot of the compliance people whom he trusts who have joined with Zeek and so he’s giving them the benefit of the doubt because of those relationships.
A lot of us do that in this business and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.
Troy has said repeatedly that he knows ZR still has issues, but he’s willing to give them time to correct them.
It remains to be seen whether ZR has any intention of fixing them, and whether Troy will continue to speak positively about them if they don’t.
Great article thanks Oz..
Banks freezing, NXpay is out of funds, people at the top cashed out and starting a new scheme, people not getting paid for weeks meanwhile Dawn leaves a recorded message describing zeek as a ponzi and that ‘she’s no good with finance’, Troy’s flying and texting scrambled updates, awesome PR work zeek.
Or are on the move already, i.e logging out, for good? I know 1 thing I would be getting my money out a quickly as possible and telling my downline to do the same before its too late.
Will diehard affiliates-members consider these the first time zeek did not come through for payment or consider this as no growth i mean growing pains.
@ K Chang Have you ever seen a coo of a company who just won whatever industry award make such a riducolous mono and explanation on how to make the e wallet work. I dont cover mlm, but this has to be rare maybe first.
I’m going to send Ted Nuyten link to this article and ask for his comments. 🙂
But there is. It’s “appeal to authority” fallacy, i.e. ‘name dropping’.
Did people say “ASD couldn’t possibly be a scam because Gerald Nehra says it wasn’t”? Sure they did.
And Gerry Nehra did say ASD is not a Ponzi. He reviewed the company for compliance and gave it a clean bill of health.
The Feds disagree.
While the “experts” may *know* more than we do, they are NOT infallible.
And you have all the Zeekheads reversing the argument, asking rhetorical questions like “You think Laggos, Grimes, Nehra, etc. would work with a scam company?”
Nehra did, and he didn’t think so at the time, but he did.
Then who is he protecting? The affiliates? Or the corporate heads and the company? Didn’t he said he’s supposed to be on the affiliate’s side on most issues? In that “confession” he even admits to have crossed the line.
ZR’s way beyond growing pains. ZR is about to slip over the boundary of outright fraud. And it’s all downhill from there.
She’s about to whip out that blanket cape and hit you with some Super Spin
lol “blanket cape”, I see what you did there.
Any bets on tonight’s daily profit share? Does Zeek give a ‘generous payout’ to try and waive the magic wand “everything is okay, nothing to see here, be happy your points are accumulating”….
Seems Zeekheads are going for the “self-consumption” angle… even Troy Dooly himself.
In his reply to my comment he basically said that all MLM companies getting off the ground gets a break when they’re almost all 100% self consumption and needs to acquire customers. He didn’t set a limit on the length of the grace period.
I have no problem as long as self-consumption is legitimate, but is buying bids to “giveaway” actually self-consumption? To me, it’s “pay to play”, and that’s investment at best, Ponzi at worst.
Zeekheads are busy looking for evidence of bidding and winning premiere auctions (and not getting their winnings) someone must have paid for those bids, i.e. customers. I think some are realizing without customers they are paying themselves.
Not a bad angle to go after… But a bit shallow. I think that’s “post hoc rationalization”.
I’ll give Troy credit though. When Zeekheads tried to denounce us on his site as “people posting negativity” and even accuse us of “censorship” (i.e. we don’t let through the “positive” stuff) he refuse to accept that sort of gruff
I’m positive. I’m positively sure there is no money in my NxPay account today.
Troy is still wrong. Even allowing for a grace period for internal consumption, that only addresses the pyramid recruiting model where you only get paid if you recruit others.
MLM’s are always in violation of the 70% rule and are usually given a slap on the wrist if any regulatory action at all.
But Zeek has a Ponzi model where you can do no recruiting and still earn an ROI. So the entire premise of “internal consumption is okay” doesn’t address the Ponzi business model, only the MLM component.
These are people Troy has known for awhile that have been in the business, so it’s not “name dropping”. These are people he trusts. There are people in the industry that I trust, and the same goes for everybody who does ANY TYPE of business, whether online or not.
Does that mean people you or I may trust don’t make mistakes from time to time? Of course not. While I understand your position regarding ZR, it’s yet to be seen if Troy or anyone else who has spoken positively about ZR are mistaken.
We’re all interested to see how Troy responds to the latest.
The issue with Troy is he expouses flimsy positive points but glosses over the negatives. This benefits the company but does a disservice to prospects by hiding the complete picture.
For exampke, the 25:1 customer ratio published in the NMBJ without talking about the peculiarities of these ‘customers’ who are nothing more than optin mailing list names that have never heard of Zeek, did not choose to become customers, and have their username assigned for them (which is why so many of the 5cc and third party customer usernames are Christian name + 3 digits).
Troy also didn’t disclose that Dawn mostly wrote the article and agreed to spend $100k with Lagos in a quid-pro-quo coverage.
Then when legitimate negative issues with substantive evidence from a US govt agency is provided, Troy ignores it and hand washes the Zeek corporate explanation with generalizations.
Look at Paul Burks explanation of the 6 banned countries due to nonexistant OFAC sanctions. Troy couldn’t have any more clear evidence to analyze than Paul Burks’ own writings on ZRN and the OFAC responses provided to Oz and other affiliates who inquired.
I went ahead and forwared the link to the youtube video of the conference call along with the transcript to the North Carolina Attorney General.
The NXpay issue looks less serious when you see that people can withdraw from the other payment processors.
This isn’t a very popular method, but the method is understandable. If you have 3 lumps of leather containing cash, and have been filling up one or two of them for months, then you’ll try to use from that/them before you try to use the almost empty one.
They *CAN* transfer money from one of them to another, but this operation will cost them more than it will cost the users.
AlertPay –> NxPay –> affiliate is a more costly operation than
AlertPay –> affiliate. The same goes for
STP –> NxPay –> affiliate. It becomes even more costly if they have to go via another account
STP –> bank account –> NxPay –> affiliate
This isn’t a problem in itself. People will accept using another payment processor a couple of times if they understand WHY they have to do it. But Dawn started in the wrong direction, starting with the payment processor that was low on funds rather than the ones that were full.
It would have worked better this way:
“You CAN withdraw money from both AlertPay and Solid Trust Pay, the next two or three paydays. If you want to withdraw money from NxPay we will have to transfer funds from one of the other payment processors, and this will cost minimum 4% and take 3-4 weeks for an amount of that size — and it will reduce the daily payouts for all affiliates for a few days”.
People are first of all interested in the solution that works (not the problem), but Dawn started from the opposite direction. She spent far too much time explaining the problem (not the solution).
I have pointed it out before. The leadership calls contains too much “talk”, and the important messages seems to disappear in all the talk.
And it would have been better if she had used “WE will have to fill it up” instead of “YOU will have to fill it up”.
She could even have used the neutral “Money has come IN through STP and AlertPay for a long time, and now you’re trying to take it OUT through NxPay”. She didn’t have to specify that the money came IN from affiliates’ purchases. 🙂
After Troys bible study all I heard was I dont knows and unchartered territories and regulator disscreation. I am really thinking of joining his supporters.
Dawn responds:
zeekrewardsnews.com/2012/06/zeebates-all-inclusives-updates/
More of the same “we’re too big for our bank” and “jumping through hoops.”
She claimed that it’s the e-wallet company’s idea to have affiliates pay into that e-wallet, then have Zeek pay the affiliates from that e-wallet. Well where does she expect all the profit to be paid from?
If you have a bunch of affiliates buying bids using one e-wallet, and then later expect to get paid that amount using the same e-wallet, isn’t Zeek going to have to put some money into it at some point?
All this and she claims that the e-wallets are not like putting money into a bank account.
Oh. Em. Gee. Check out the new Zeek Rewards News with an update from Dawn herself:
Ummmm… no. It is absolutely NOTHING like that!!
Look, either the *ahem* profits from the penny auction site are deposited into the appropriate e-wallets or they aren’t.
If they aren’t, then where are they?
Pfft, horsefeathers!!
Seriously, that is the biggest load of nonsense, even for Zeek. Sheesh, it’s like they aren’t even trying anymore.
I trust them… if they show me why I *should* trust them. I don’t trust Zeek. If they don’t show me why I *should* trust them, only leaving me with their past reputation to decide whether to trust them or not, then their trust score gets a huge “discount”.
@Marley — oh great, now Dawn is shifting blame on this nameless eWallet authority: he explained it to me that way, it must be his fault, not mine.
YOU SAID IT, DAWN. OWN UP TO IT: you spoke bullsh__.
And your explanation is STILL bullsh__.
The *first* thing you do at a eWallet provider is open your own account, and PUT MONEY INTO IT if you want to pay out of it. The very fact that you, Dawn try to fob off that explanation about getting paid from one eWallet provider and paying WITH a different eWallet provider basically CONFIRMS you have cashflow problems if you can’t transfer money to cover those payout.
Maybe the question we *should* be asking now is WHERE does Zeek really bank now, that they can’t or won’t get money into those eWallet providers?
Don’t blame affiliates for Zeek’s own ineptitude at cashflow management.
So far, “blame the affiliates for everything”. This is no different. Mr. Dooly, speak up for the affiliates. Zeek created this problem, and Zeek is blaming affiliates for it… AGAIN!
LOL @Dawn’s terrible analogy. The correct analogy is “it is driving up to a BK and paying with the $10 bill that McDonalds gave me as change”.
Each store has different products but both take cash. Each eWallet is a different store, but cash is accepted the same. So Zeek simply needs to fund the eWallets.
Oh my…
@k. Chang
Since Dawn said this was the eWallets’ idea, should be straightforward to verify with the eWallets?
All three eWallets had the exact same idea? Not one said “fund your account”? And on the call, Dawn spoke as if it was impossible to fund Zeek’s eWallet account, not that they opted not to by design.
Easy as it is to jump on the seeming stupidity of Dawn’s explanation and how it may point to a Ponzi scheme, here’s a possible scenario:
NxPay knows Zeek’s transactions are high-risk and they don’t want to be in a position where they are disbursing a large amount of funds that Zeek has deposited, the origins of which are unknown.
Instead, they prefer to deal only with in-house transactions that they have facilitated. If this is indeed the case, a simple explanation by Dawn would require stating that their transactions are considered “high risk”. Of course Zeek would prefer not to do that, thus all the broken burger and drive-thru metaphors.
In any case, considering the anti-laundering and anti-fraud measures, this scenario would not surprise me.
@cyveil
But according to Dawn’s explanation, all the eWallets operate this way. So that means AP and STP have asked for the same arms-length treatment of Zeek funds?
@cyveil
May point? It’s a textbook definition son.
Why?
Your scenario leads with an important assumption and explains nothing unless it’s clarified first.
The problem with your scenario is your “evidence” for supporting it is paper thin, and there are far more plausible scenarios: such as Zeek simply don’t *have* the funds to deposit into their NxPay eWallet. It is the simplest explanation, after all.
Would you be the *same* CyVeil that was claiming PP’s hypocrisy over at PatrickPretty.com?
The highest risk transactions for an eWallet is money loaded by individual customers, not the merchants. The money from the merchant is the safest as it’s done as single large transfers and merchant sign contracts with the eWallet provider that we do not have to.
Some eWallet providers also require minimum account balances as well in order to guarantee a certain fee structure.
If the eWallet thought Zeek’s business was high risk they wouldn’t support incoming money funded by affiliates but only support outgoing (the opposite of what is available now).
You don’t get disputes from the merchants. You get the myriad of disputes from individual customers. That’s where your risk and cost reside.
Here’s my analysis of Dawn’s reply:
So Zeek Rewards are dealing with more money than anybody in the e-wallet industry has ever seen before and have triggered some sort of imaginary limit on deposits into (business owned) e-wallet accounts?
Bullshit.
Yes it is. Except it’s electronic. You simply put in a withdrawal request from your e-waller provider and they then withdraw the funds from your nominated bank account(s).
It’s as simple as that.
No it isn’t, it’s nothing like that at all.
All e-wallets around the world accept USD and that’s what Zeek Rewards are working with. They all take USD via bank account deposits and they all pay out in USD to affiliates bank accounts.
If Zeek Rewards were funding their e-wallets properly through their own bank channels rather than simply using affiliate money to pay affiliates commissions with (without even touching the money themselves), then that’s the base definition of a Ponzi scheme right there.
Especially if they’re demanding members put more into the scheme before they pay out, which was the case on the last night’s training call.
Why do the e-wallets have to do anything? Zeek Rewards should be funding each e-wallet account independently through their own banking channels are required.
Yes, but available funds from all three can be withdrawn and easily deposited into another e-wallet by Zeek Rewards. The entire process would take no longer than a week.
Any other excuse to hide this fact is just hot air being blown up the affiliate’s collective arses. You guys know how e-wallets work because Zeek Rewards force you to use them yourselves.
Not good enough
What business scraps a payment system that was working (checks), push an electronic solution onto their members and then hide behind unproven limitations as the reason they can’t pay out members appropriately?
And what alleged hoops is Dawn talking about, after over 6 months association with each e-wallet provider why the hell haven’t these hoops been addressed?
If Zeek Rewards can’t pay into their e-wallet providers then that’s entirely on them, seeing as they scrapped the check option.
What on Earth happens with STP and AP affiliate deposited money runs out?
So the owner of an e-wallet you refuse to name describes to you a textbook Ponzi scheme scenario (let’s not forget, most e-wallets are notoriously known for working with every Ponzi scheme and money game under the sun), and these are the guys you’re going to jump into bed and do business with?
If you’re solely funding the commission payouts you’re paying with affiliate deposits you are running a Ponzi scheme! It doesn’t get any simpler or clearer than that.
That’s because they’re used to operating with Ponzi schemes that operate in this way. If you’re going to claim to be a legitimate business you cannot operate in this manner.
What the e-wallet providers prefer is irrelevant, you have the means to deposit funds into your e-wallets and doing otherwise means you are effectively running a Ponzi scheme.
Why on Earth would e-wallets not want to take traceable cash from US based bank accounts owned by Zeek Rewards? Claiming imaginary limits and e-wallet company preferences is just nonsense.
NO IT’S NOT.
E-wallets don’t pay out products, they pay out cash.
I can go into Burger King, pay for my order with my bank account linked debit card, walk into any other shop on the planet with an eftpos machine and then make a withdrawal from my bank account. Do I get charged a fee? Of course I do! E-wallets too charge a fee but the point is it can be wholly done.
Yes, yes not your fault we get it. It’s all the fault of that rotten “e-wallet owner” (who you’re going to go ahead and do business with anyway).
Jesus Christ, here’s a tissue. Next you’ll be telling us it’s McDonalds and Burger King’s fault you keep using them in flawed analogies on the sole basis that they sell burgers…
“but but… that’s what some McDonalds manager I was talking to the other day told me. Honest!”
Not in the slightest.
Two things to take from Dawn’s reply
1) Blame EVERYBODY ELSE. It’s the anonymous eWallet guy’s fault. It’s the eWallet company’s fault. It’s the affiliate’s fault for not using NxPay enough.
2) Dawn virtually confirmed that they have cashflow problems as they “can’t easily move money from one eWallet to another”. What happened to this unnamed bank and the 60 million made last year? How about another 30-45 million made this year thus far?
I think you have hit the nail on the head. However, is the problem funding NxPay a lack of funds, or issues they have had establishing a new banking source?
And if it is problems with the banking source, then why are they so secretive about those issues?
Unless they clarify THOSE issues then the other explanations about eWallets and blaming everyone else but themselves holds no water.
They need to be more transparent and if they are not, then everyone has a right to be critical.
@Gary
If it’s banking problems on their end then Zeek Rewards are misleading their members and the general public, again.
Zeek Rewards, June 8th:
Dawn Wright-Olivares, June 26th:
According to Mr. Dooly, he knows which bank it is, but he’s keeping it a secret as Top Zeeks told him to keep it a secret
From what I gathered, they convinced him it’s a good idea by telling him a story that affiliates keep calling up the local banks so much which is why Zeek was told to bank elsewhere.
Good points.
This new compliance course thing they’re rolling out is a new cash injection of 29.2 million dollars ($29.99 * 800,000 (?) members) so I’m sure we’ll see NXPay properly funded in July.
By bundling the advertising stuff with the package they force all affiliates to buy it rather than just the US ones.
After that money runs out… (Memo to Zeek Rewards corporate: insert someone new to blame here).
@ Oz Lol. At the McDonalds and Burger King fault. Iam just glad she didnt use 2 ply vs regular toilet paper or which way you should have it come off the dispenser again.
Too funny Oz, too funny. ALL the bs it might of been more appropriate…..
The complaints of lack of funds just keep on rolling in. Might be worth archiving this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ao8TZ4vQl_6vdGtNcjhqZ2loTGZ5RWVCUjZJeG53YkE#gid=0
Someone in support group said Citizens bank in NY. Not sure if that is accurate.
<sarcasm>
Quick, somebody get on the phone and find out!
</sarcasm>
Oz, not eveyone will take the compliance course. Actual number of affiliates that need to take it probably much less than 800k. For example, free affiliates won’t take it, not sure if silver with low balances would.
Many have already taken it and had their money spent rewarded with RPP.
Look at the amount of VIP bids bought by affiliates, $43,000
Retail bids by real customers? $300
Granted these are just complaints (like the guy accidently charged 14 times for diamond subscription!!) but I still think it highlights the fact of where the bids for zeekler are coming from (affiliates) as if their was heaps of retail bids you would see just as many complaints.
Someone complained of privacy breach, potential phisihing attacks, and PCI compliance and had that thread taken down on Zeek Support, but the spreadsheet is still there.
That spreadsheet only lists those who have complained on the forum, not all problems.
The whole thing plays into itself really.
“We know our affiliates are having money problems but it’s due to our growing pains. Don’t you think we’d have a barrage of complaints from our legit customers if we were anything less than above board?”
“You know you need customers first before they can make complaints right?”
“Uh… what? Sorry I’d like to retract my previous statement. That’s just what one of the customer selling business owners told me. Totally not my fault.”
“Ok so how are you going to fix the problem?”
“Dunno… buy some more blanket capes maybe. New compliance course? Recode Shopping Daisy into a toolbar anyone?”
“Yes that’s all very well but what about the customers?”
“Well we don’t have any, remember? Problem solved!…Blue or black? Nananaanananana BATMAN!”
All this talk made me go to the drive thru for some dirty burgers. Oz are you impersonating Dawn now… lol.
Her fast food examples have been the most effective advertising zeek ever came out with. But on a serious note I guess DD is looking for the next big thing-level to take Zeek.
Even discussing auctions on real estate-spin on recovery for housing crisis. Who knows what they will try.
That spreadsheet represented whay – 2 days of problems for those who happened to have gone on the forum and read that topic and edited the Google shared doc.
Surely retail customers would have access to that forum too given they signed up for zeekler. So where’s all the retail customer complaints?
All I see is over the 2 days is 16,000 free bids purchased and 400 real bids (these are only the complaints so more likely x each figure by 100. Surely that would equate ‘not enough outside customers’ Mr Dooly.
No, retail accounts cannot login.
But that’s unpossible. Paul himself assured us recently that 99.9% of all transactions are processed like clockwork.
Or did he say that 99.9% of transactions were processed like Clockwork Orange?
Oh well, I’m sure it was one or the other.
Curious as to why Zeek even needs affiliates to report problems to a specific topic and update a spreadsheet? Couldn’t they just run a report and know who they didn’t pay yet?
OFAC probably told them they couldn’t.
Or maybe that information is so proprietary that even Zeek Rewards don’t have access to it.
Nanananananana BATMAN!
I have had a number of my friend telling me to join as they are making so much money, but I am very skeptical.
It seems that there are so many red flags, yet more and more people keep joining.
It just “Dawned” on me that she is also the Top Field Leader in the Universe
You have a couple of friends telling you to join so you can PAY IN in order for them to be able to CASH OUT and keep the Ponzi going longer.
Even though your friends made money, the game is basically over at this point so there’s really no point in putting new money in now. There are millions of VIP points waiting to be paid ahead of you, and already they are showing cash flow and management issues.
Thanks Cashed out. My gut is telling me that Zeek will get shut down sooner then later. I just wonder what is keeping the AG’s from taking action now if in fact it is an illegal ponzi scheme.
@Curious
The Zeek Chief of Operations has used corporate analogies of toilet paper rolls, crane machines, and burgers, and just today compared the company payroll system to fast food chains.
With that in mind, my advice is don’t get snatched by Mr. Ponzi Paws, Curious!
@GlimDropper
Now that was funny!
Thank you Vicky. 🙂
@ Curious,
Cash issues and payment delays are two signs of a ponzi apocalypse. And no matter how much you you invest,… er.,.. umm.,… no matter how many bids you purchase in ZR you can’t see a dime for 90 days. So the question isn’t will ZR be here tomorrow, it’s how much of it will be left 3 months from now.
Even Dawn will run out of burger and fry analogies by then but she will still have fresh excuses to spare.
@GlimDropper
?
The 3 e-wallett examples comparing McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy’s…basically a street hustler explanation of 3 card monte.
I believe Zeek got the wrong memo about “going green” and promoting “sustainability” by recycling. It did not mean to recycle affiliate money via e-wallets
You theoretically can set your reinvestment to 0% from day 1 and start cashing out. Assuming a 1.43% profit rate average, you will recover your original investment after 70 days, leaving you with 20 days left before your points expire.
However, you still have to request a withdrawal which takes minimum 2-weeks to process + any Zeek delays like we’re seeing today (some payments delayed 2 weeks putting people at 4+ weeks from time of request and counting) + any eWallet provider delays (STP has taken over 3 weeks to process check requests).
So if you set your reinvestment to 0% from day 1, it will take:
– 70 days to earn original investment back at 1.43%
– 2-4 weeks for Zeek to pay via eWallet
– ?? to ?? weeks for eWallet to pay you by check, or you can use bankwire and pay steeper fees + have IRS tax scrutiny in the US if the funds were overseas and you accumulate more than $3k per month in transfer from the same bank
Now that you’re break-even, assuming everything works out and you get your money, from day 71 to 90 you are on “house money”.
In practice, most affiliates let their point balance grow for 60 to 90 days and THEN start withdrawing. In this case your ROI is much, much higher, but you are at risk that the profit share may drop or Zeek may collapse before you get your money back.
If you had a crystal ball and knew exactly how long a HYIP would last before payments stopped coming, you could time it exactly and be rich.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I was too lazy to assimilate the remark from a frequently commenting skeptic and it initially sounded an inaccurate description. I’m sure this is generally what he meant.
Of course, one can also recruit to increase returns.
I agreed with Dawn’s initial explanation when she said “an e-wallet is an empty container.” That was quite accurate. Then she digressed to “Big Macs at Wendy’s” and “springs”and “geysers.”
Suddenly I became discombobulated with rabid hunger and a strong desire to pee. I think she played another Jedi mind trick on me:
“You don’t need my clarification. These aren’t the NxPay funds you’re looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.”
In general government takes a whole YEAR to move in. Look at Burnlounge and Ad Surf Daily should give you some ideas how slow they move.
AG’s move a little faster… California moved in on Zamzuu/ YTBI pretty quick.
@MB, thank you for pointing out my mistake.
@Jimmy, thank you for clarifying the issue.
I need to stop posting when I should be sleeping.
It’s easy to draw conclusions from Dawn’s burger-ridden explanation of how e-wallets work, but I doubt many folks here have firsthand experience transferring high-dollar amounts into e-wallets. So allow me to share my personal experiences with PayPal from a couple of years ago, when I tried to fund my PayPal account with a $50,000 transfer from my Bank of America account.
Though I had been a “Verified Business” customer in good standing for several years prior, PayPal froze my account immediately including the $50,000. It took six months and a LOT of documentation for them to finally free my funds.
In my case, I had transferred the funds to pay affiliate commissions for one of my own products. But as I came to learn, e-wallets like PayPal, AlertPay (and presumably NxPay) look at large deposits from external banks with a high degree of scrutiny, mainly to prevent their services from being used to distribute ill-gotten gains.
Had that $50,000 been generated from PayPal subscriptions to my product, and remained in my PayPal account, I’m certain there would have been no issues accessing those funds.
Something else I learned while all of this was underway: Since PayPal wouldn’t let me use the $50,000 in my PayPal account to pay commissions, I tried to do a ‘mass pay’ (uploaded CSV file with payee information) by drawing from additional funds in my Bank of America account.
Keep in mind this was a bank account that had already been verified by PayPal. Yet the mass pay wasn’t allowed either, since apparently mass pays must draw from available funds within the e-wallet (the same funds that had been frozen!) not external funds. It was maddening as hell.
I’m NOT saying this is the case with Zeek and NxPay, but based on my experiences, this sounds to me like the scenario Dawn was clumsily trying to explain. So just something to keep in mind as a possibility. After all, there are two sides to everything, including burgers 🙂
@Tissa
There’s a big difference, not in just the dollar amount, but simply in that PayPal doesn’t know who you are. A verified business partner is easy to get if you pay for it and the verification is straight forward.
Zeek, on the other hand, is talking to the owners of these eWallets. They sign separate agreements – not the basic ToS agreements we sign as lowly end users, but separate contracts like you would sign when you set up card processing.
The eWallets will verify funds in your bank account, and above and beyond all of this, you establish a history of transferring funds into the eWallet.
Also, keep in mind that Zeek has a 2 week advance notice of the payment commitment, so it’s not like they are suddenly overwhelmed with a large amount of withdrawal requests.
Finally, Dawn said that there was no way to fund eWallets with cash, which goes against everyone else’s experience and knowledge.
She didn’t say “we’re sooooo huge now that we couldn’t find NxPay with $1.23 million and they capped us at $50k because we are a new merchant”. She said no way in hell they could fund the eWallet from their bank account.
I’ve been waiting in the wings to join Zeek – a good friend has been in for nearly 6 months and has done extremely well, although he’s now been waiting for more than a month to get paid and recover his initial bid purchase!
But I too had reservations because it seemed “too good to be true” which most often means it is. This blog has been very enlightening to say the least but I must admit the last entry from Tisa Godavitarne was I think VERY important.
Something that a lot of people are unaware of, PayPal has a policy that they can arbitrarily freeze your account for 6 months without notice, without explanation. I actually don’t know if the other e-wallet companies have a similar policy but if they do, then what Tisa said may very well explain what’s going on.
The federal government has changed banking regulations enormously since 9/11 and no one who handles money is exempt. Those regulations require detailed information on the source & destination of all money and that makes companies like NX-Pay and SolidTrustPay obligated to enforce those requirements or face the wrath of the Feds.
I think Zeek is experiencing a big problem with precisely that – you can’t just hand a large amount of money to an e-wallet and have it instantly available.
In fact, you very well may experience what Tisa said. They may freeze those funds until all detailed requirements are met. And that is definitely what an explosive growth company would be hard pressed to deliver.
On another issue, I have asked more than once how many actual auctions are taking place on a daily/monthly basis. No one has been willing to provide or even seems to know the answer. That to me could be a huge flag.
Another huge flag is the popularity of the ZeekRewards website verses the Zeekler auction website. Apparently there is a great deal MORE traffic to ZeekRewards than to their own auctions!
If the auctions are the funding mechanism of this whole scheme, then reason would dictate that the opposite would be true – far more traffic attending auctions than visiting the ZeekRewards site.
So for me, I plan to wait awhile longer and see what happens before putting any money into this.
Which basically leaves two interpretations:
Either Dawn is the worst communicator ever yet the most talkative with her long-winded burger analogies…
or she’s a liar.
Take your pick. 🙂
Troy Dooly’s back online… he says Zeek’s having problems transferring money to their eWallets because they only reestablished banks a few weeks ago.
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/breaking-zeek-rewards-alert-we-are-waiting-clearification-from-last-nights-leadership-call/#comment-59724
Of course, that’s not anything remotely close to what Dawn said.
And if that was the case, why couldn’t Zeek re-enable NxPay withdrawal option NOW? They would not need to fund the account until the next pay run on 7/16 for withdrawals made this week.
Surely if the banking relationships have been put in place a few weeks ago, and Zeek would have a 2+ week advance notice of the affiliate payment obligation, they could re-enable NxPay now?
Something smells… there is never a single, clear, transparent answer on the money issues.
Dooly promised that if not all the commission’s paid by July 4th he’ll report on “that”. Hmmm…
Hello everyone, I have had serious problems moving my money from alertpay (payza) to my bank account. I requested a bank transfer for 4000 dollars from pay on JUNE 10!!!! and still no sign of the funds going into my account, even after attempting endless calls and email support tickets.
if what you guys are saying is true, and payza needs to have funds allocated from zeekler to pay out its payza customers, then i am guessing theres probably no money left.
I am in the proccess of cashing out my 30k points from zeekler. wish me luck, i am going to need it.
Which commissions is he referring to?
– commissions due 6/18, requested week of 5/28
– commissions due 6/25, requested week of 6/04
– commissions due 7/02, requested week of 6/11
And which eWallets? All of them, or just some? Zeek seems to have different timelines with different eWallets – which all makes sense now that we know Zeek isn’t funding them with their bank account but waiting for cash to flow in from affiliate purchases.
Maybe someone like MB (who’s posted over there) can ask him. 🙂
@Tissa — you do have a point, but either this is the largest PR gaffe in Zeek history or it’s a clear admission it’s a Ponzi scheme. It’s hard to come up with reasonable alternatives.
Troy puts way to much faith in the consultants for zeek both now and for the future. The main reason i prefer this site over Dooly is the guy never elaborates on nothing.
Troy states he is confident Zeek will look no way it does now by next year. Ok Troy i will just follow your post daily or check back in a year from now…. Oz and others on here quote, research and backup there statements and facts very well.
@Tissa, that happened to me with paypal – froze $25,000 of mine. The reason they do that though is because when it gets that large it’s like an unsecured merchant account.
They held my money to protect them from possible customer returns. If people request refunds, the owner of the paypal account can choose to refund or not. It’s not like a credit card where someone can dispute charges and get their money back.
I don’t believe this is the case with Zeek at all. Zeek isn’t funding the e-wallets. Dawn clearly admitted how the ponzi works with the e-wallets and then went back and tried to cover her ass.
Hey, maybe we should give her the benefit of the doubt. After all, she is the number one leader in the world of mlm.
I think Oliveras just needs to come out with a further clarification to her clarification and tell everybody what she REALLY meant was we’re supposed to encourage our external, retail customers to make THEIR bid purchases through our preferred e-wallet.
Which is what I left as answers on Troy’s website: I am willing to give Dawn a chance to own up to her snafu and give some real dates on when the affiliates will be paid.
Except that you can’t buy penny auction retail bids using NxPay anyways. It’s used ONLY for affiliate investment purchases.
Ask Troy he will get to the bottom of pay issues. lol
I just received payment into NxPay from the 6/25 run. I guess someone bought something from Zeek.
I agree! That is what I have found quite helpful.
That was from withdrawal requests made over 2 weeks ago. The question is why has NxPay been removed from current withdrawal requests!
I will be watching this closely.
Many have already taken and passed the mandatory compliance course and paid their $5. Will this be a double charge by design?
Many have established “downlines” and will feel no need to subscribe to the YGPTA. This would amount to an up-charge for them.
Like I said, I’ll be keeping an eye open on this development. The possible double-charge and up-charge aspects of this new and wonderful plan to be implemented in July reeks of “Milking the Herd”.
And now, the official response from Dawn and maybe even Troy may be… “Love it or get out”.
@BWatson
I have not received my 6/25 payment in NxPay. I need to pay a subscription, and can’t get a credit card to work.
The RPP is slow so I can’t pay move to cash available and the link is down anyway. I was wondering if you could buy something with the NxPay funds you made so I could get paid?
Be sure and Recycle!
Seems Zeek (and Troy Dooly) is going with the “horrible verbal gaffe” narrative.
No idea if Dawn will admit that in public.
Interesting though… When I mentioned banned countries (he brought it up first), he basically said “so sue them”. I’m not sure how to interpret that remark.
“horrible verbal gaffe”
Kind of reminds me of the the “CLAWback”
Don’t be trying to make bull**** up. If they push, you’re cell phone dropped.. Get it. Got it. Good!”
How do people pay for the zeekler auctions; Only STP and Alert Pay? If that’s the case it is possible for zeek to be unable to withdraw those funds from STP and alertpay to a bank and then deposit funds back into NxPay if they have no bank. Is that what Troy means? Although possible, I find that a little far-fetched.
AlertPay and Credit Card only now for retail penny auction bid purchases.
You used to be able to use STP but today that disappeared, probably due to all of the problems they’ve been having crediting accounts. Something probably wrong with their top notch programming and they aren’t handling the callbacks from the STP API correctly.
Interesting comments read today. Wouldn’t that be a major red flag for the fact your are get paid on your own money with not need to sign anyone up?:
Is it that hard to simply use a temporary bank account to withdraw the funds to from STP and AP, in order to re-deposit back into NxPay, is that not a possibility?
I know zeek don’t like criticism but in future I suggest Dawn user a script-writer, someone who knows what their talking about.
She admits finance is not her thing, it’s like humphrey bear trying to explain the economics of derivitives using fluffy seseme st level analogies that either dont make sense, are wrong, or are a complete lie.
I know zeek affiliates would expect more from a COO, especially the voted number 1 mlm pr person in the globe.
Zeekre-wards, Zeekre-wards whatcha gunna dooo? Whatcha gunna do when the “hackers” hack you?
This is why I like paper checks.
It just works.
Zeek is so dumb.
Or, they are smarter than we think, and they went to eWallet system because then they had another entity to blame as they slow-pay all affiliates.
Had they of stuck with checks I’m sure by now we’d have been hearing about the delays caused by anonymous cartel owners who run the shipping routes along the Amazon river:
Check printing machines are like lumps of leather, you need to put in paper to get a check out. It’s not like you can just rockup to the Amazon rainforest and go ‘where’s my paper at yo?’ There is co-ordination required between a whole host of various institutions along the way.
Then you have to consider whether or not the pirhanas in the river like McDonalds, Burger King of Wendys. I mean it’s not like you can just give the Burger King pirhanas McDonalds and expect a
lump of leatherwad of checks to pop out (laughter).Y’know, maybe the fish want Wendy’s, maybe they want Pizza hut, it’s not like we know these things or expect them so that results in more delays. Look I dunno if any of this is accurate or makes sense this is just what I was told by the river cartel guys cutting down the leather to put into our lumps of trees (laughter).
If I eat lots of McDonalds and Burger King my stomach has growing pains so it’s like that see. I have to go and buy new blanket capes, pants and stuff see? Right? Right, okay so it’s like Zeek has all these checks but we dunno what to feed the pirhanas on the river so the trees aren’t being cut down due to river not being able to handle our transaction volume. Right?
I mean jeez y’know, we’re out there working with these trees (some of which we can’t cut down due to OFAC regulations) trying to get you guys your checks and okay, y’know y’know okay, it’s like we can only cut down the amount of trees you guys plant.
So if you want checks then y’all need to get out there and start planting some trees. Your garden, a park, the McDonalds carpark – it doesn’t matter. Just start planting trees so we can go ahead and get those checks out to you.
99.9% of the trees we cut down get cut down flawlessly, but it’s the 0.1% of the trees we have problems cutting down that our critics latch on to and harp on about. We just happen to only make checks out of that 0.1% (we use the rest for toilet paper here at head office) so when we have problems with the 0.1% you can see it’s totally not our fault. I mean cmon, we’ve been in business longer than the bible.
What do you want us to do? Hire more compliance lawyers, put out more videos, terminate some more affiliate accounts, actually pay you on time?! Ridiculous! Guys believe us we’re doing everything we can right now to make sure you’ve all got clean toilet paper.
In the meantime anyone who doesn’t want to wipe their ass with dirty toilet paper can always cash out and GTFO. Oh right, right cashing out isn’t working right now… well then you’ll just have to settle for getting out then.
..Oh and make sure y’all eat some more Burger King and McDonalds too – remember, we can only pay out what comes in.
Zeek out Batman yo – number #1 MLM leader in the UNIVERSE bitches.
That was the clearest clarification yet! Your the best COO ever, you are, you are!
Interesting development… you presently cannot use STP to purchase either retail VIP bids on Zeekler.com or compounding bids on Zeek Rewards.
For Zeekler.com, you can only buy bids with AlertPay and credit card.
For Zeek Rewards compounding bids, you can buy with AlertPay, NxPay, or cashier’s check/money-order which takes 4-weeks to process (even though affiliates have confirmed that deposits will hit within a few days, it takes Zeek 2-4 weeks to credit your account).
For withdrawal, you can only withdraw via SolidTrustPay or AlertPay.
So interesting that incoming funds via STP has been removed. Outbound via NxPay has been removed. These are probably temporary, but hints at more cash flow issues and overall poor business execution.
I don’t want to get all too very specific here, contrary to oft repeated internet reports I do have a heart (though I can’t tell you who’s). But there is more than one thread on their support forum crying out to ZR and warning them just how easy it is to bypass their password security.
But so far, no replies from the ZR support moderators.
Hacker’s are an amazingly convenient excuse and if Dawn’s last few calls are any indication the value of convenient excuses on leadership calls should not be underestimated.
With the constant shutting off of e-wallet accounts for incoming/outgoing cash, increasingly it’s starting to look like these are mere mechanisms with which to shuffle around affiliate money as required to pay out what is owed.
It really makes you wonder just how large of a % of affiliate money coming in and being shuffled around the entire operation depends on.
Zeekler and retail customer auction winnings aren’t even a part of the equation at this point.
Those posts are from dumb affiliates. There are really only two issues:
1. Affiliates cut & paste their URL which includes the tokenized password string that doesn’t have an adequate expiration.
So they post the URL in forums and blogs and that gets indexed by Google, so the attackers just copy the URL and can get in. Zeek should be using cookies and putting form parameters using POST and not GET strings. Zeek should expire web sessions too.
2. Affiliates pick stupid passwords like “password” or the same password as their user name. Hackers are scanning for “site:zeekrewards.com” and trying every login with the password “password” and the username.
They break in and if they are sneaky, they change the receiving eWallet account without the user knowing until weeks later when they haven’t received their deposit. The affiliate bangs on the forum saying “I didn’t get paid” when they did, it just went to a different AlertPay username.
Zeek should be enforcing strong passwords at account creation.
(If Zeek is reading this on a daily basis as was claimed, I just gave them the formula to fix their website. I actually gave them this formula in Nov 2011 on another forum, but they ignored me then.)
Other than those two stupid things Zeek should fixed from day one, there could be some web application vulnerabilities such as logic problems or data input validation problems like SQL injection.
The general theory is if the developers haven’t addressed the basic issues like #1 and #2 above, they probably have not done proper access control and input validation either (kind of like you don’t learn to do a flying spin kick until you first learn the front kick and the roundhouse kick).
But I’m not going about to do a scan since it’s illegal from where I am from even if I don’t “break in” but just “probe for vulnerabilities”… but someone else in a country where it’s legal to run an IBM AppScan or HP WebInspect scan could do so without legal repercussion.
As skeptics we have to theorize possibilities using logic. Obviously these E-wallet issues could be a mechanism to shuffle around money. However my gut tells me the leadership is not savvy enough to conceive such a grand plan of execution.
I know we should not judge a book by it’s cover, but if I see a book with a ghost on it, I can theorize that the book might be scary. I watched the red carpet video at the Help Desk with a kid with a backwards ball cap, shorts, and scruff. He looked like he belonged at the AppleBees bar rather than a leadership meeting.
Now this is one shallow example. One might say Steve Jobs dressed like a garage hippie in the start up days. But when you really start looking at the dozens of red flags, the Zeek book cover begins to look like a horror story, or maybe Shakespeare’s Comedy of Errors!
My skepticism is still focused on two issues: The Howey Test and Retail Customers
+ penny auction for cash prizes might be illegal lottery
True. PayPay has been making serious money on gaming sites,and state lobbyists have targeted online gaming for years. It is another issue, just not with which I have a lot of concern.
Maybe they just want to ENCOURAGE you to use NxPay by removing STP…
I think that makes more sense. Figuring sh** up as they they go along
There seems to be more trouble in paradise.
I thought Zeek was HEALTHY, DEBT-FREE and ROCK SOLID.
Hard to tell if the problems are 1) lack of cash and on the edge of collapse, 2) cash flow/banking issues, or 3) just pure incompetence and business execution.
15 years of experience and 3 million customers (or 4 million if you listen to Daryl Douglas) and they are using a Google docs spreadsheet and asking affiliates to post their own information, but only if you happen to be reading the support forum and read the topic that says “last call, post yout payment issues for 6/18”.
Now we know which way the toast’s buttered on Troy Dooly’s website.
Instead of slapping down insults or at least chastise the offenders he’s allowing them from the Zeek defenders against me and MB.
Heck, he even laughed at one of the jokes obviously at my expense.
That ain’t no neutral, despite that “confession”.
This is so wrong, Oz, but it feels so right.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Skeptics, Affiliates and their inheritors, I think I found THE solution to finally make sure Zeek will be compliant and sustainable.
This exciting and revolutionary new product will soon be launched on the Zeek online store, and soon the retail customer to affiliate ratio will be on solid footing once and for all!
Drum Roll Please….
The best way to fight back is to continue posting and getting the word out about our analysis to date. We need to get all of the key blogs, forums, videos, and your hub on the first page of Google.
Fight back with superior online business execution!
Looks like Zeek still has payment issues with NxPay for the 6/25 payments. Some affiliate received payments but many are still waiting.
Payment via STP for 6/18 has not completed yet with some affiliates still complaining. Not sure on status of 6/25 STP payouts.
AlertPay payment seems to be on time.
All of these issues can’t just be “growing pains” because as Oz stated, payment was fine in prior weeks via the eWallets. The programming interface is probably NOT the problem. Occam’s Razor tells us the problem most likely is related to cash flow problems, or maybe it’s just lack of pickles holding up the hamburger supply chain.
@Jimmy,
What do you think happened to the millions of dollars they made last year and this year? The seem to really harp on the fact that they are debt free.
I wonder if Dawn and the gang are waiting on their commission as long as some affiliates.
@Oz
Thanks for cleaning up my last post. I think I know how to do those blockquote thingies now 🙂
The 2011 US Income Disclosure Statement doesn’t tell us what their balance sheet looks like, just what they paid out to affiliates via commissions and daily profit share. Since much of that pay out was “reinvested” we don’t know the true picture, and the IDS was for the US only.
I have no doubt that they are indeed debt free if you use their definition of “debt”. As others have pointed out, unless Zeek puts a valuation on the virtual points, they have no liability.
Suppose all income ceased tomorrow (retail and affiliate revenue), Zeek could just pay out 0% in daily profit share. All the affiliates get screwed as their virtual points are immediately worth zero, but Zeek as a corporate entity would have no debt against these virtual points.
Now that is an extreme example, but shows how Zeek’s approach is completely warped from reality.
In any other business, if you issues bonds, options, warrants, or any kind of ROI guarantee (i.e. an investment) you record that on your balance sheet as debt. Zeek views the points as not an investment and the profit share is completely dependent on future profits – this is now Zeek wiggles out of the investment designation.
However, the way in which the opportunity is promoted has entirely been based on an Zeek being an investment. This is why Zeek is blaming the affiliates when and if the business collapses, when in actuality the business model is that of an investment.
I noticed that.
You were right to point out the ad hominem attack on Paul too, only to be attacked yourself. It’s like a political discussion, sticking to ones ideology so much that when logic and facts run out the attacks begin.
Paul Burks is running a superb cult over there at Zeek.
Next thing you know he will have mandatory 36 hour videos for affiliates to watch, borrowed from his buddy L. Ron Hubbard.
I have a few questions
How long would you guys predict when zeek will die if you had to pick a duration
Also if zeek transfer funds to an affiliate payza does that mean the affiliate has already been pay and if zeek dies you can still withdraw with payza regardless
Hard to say. We’re not sure if the current problems paying affiliates is due to just incompetence or “growing pains” as Zeek would say, or real actual cash problems.
Best way to play this would be to keep an eye on the affiliate payments and if they problems aren’t fixed in another 2 weeks or so, many affiliates are going to think the ship is sinking and will start to withdraw funds at a greater rate (if they haven’t already started to). Zeek can’t go around being 2-3-4 weeks late on payments and get away with it forever due to “growing pains”.
Yes, once the funds are in any eWallet they are safe from Zeek’s clawback.
Guys, back up and look at M_Norway’s explanation and Tissa’s confirmation. If you were not already looking at the situation with prejudicial bias, you would realize that these are complete explanations of the current issues with eWallets.
Coupled with Dawn’s clumsy explanation, you can figure that the situation is basically that they are having trouble moving money around fast enough to pay out of the newest payment processor.
This is totally plausible as we’re probably talking money in the millions of dollars here. One does not simply transfer millions of dollars around.
The business model, for better or worse, is mathematically sound. It can’t topple if they are doing what they say. Since you guys are stuck on it being a traditional ponzi, you make the mistake of thinking that at some point it will have to break its promises; in fact it never does.
It may wind down some day, and yes people can and will lose money when it does. But people join knowing that.
Oz, this was your 20th article on Zeek. That’s a lot of time and research. Thank You Sir for your diligence.
Here’s a Zeek toast to Oz! (and for any of you out there who naively believes in government healthcare, a sympathetic kook aid toast for you too)
(Ozedit: Cheers, but let’s go easy on the Youtube clips hey)
How would one know affiliates are cashing out at a higher rate or at all or how much
Does anyone know if it is require to verify ap in order to withdraw via checks
And how Long would two micro debit appear in ones. Statement
After it appears is it instant when confirming To fully verify
How much is hard to discern, but I think the exodus has begun. My theory is that the NXP issue is due to zeek overestimating the cash in/cash out ratio for the last couple of weeks, for NXP at least.
Hi bye, we can only speculate. However I politely disagree an exodus has begun. Barring regulators stepping in, I feel the scheme, which many of the skeptics in this forum believe is currently a ponzi, could go on for several more 90 day rotations.
We must also consider what adjustments Zeek could make if not too late.The RPP will start dropping first, and I would predict with more spin to slow and contain panic.
Some skeptics reference the AdSurfDaily secret service seizure. Based on that scam, the time clock is about up.
By the way AdSurf talked of doing an auction arm, but never got there. Today, there are top affiliates in Zeek who are refugees from AdSurf.
In addition, Gerald Nehra, an attorney for Zeek unsuccessfully argued to a Federal Court hat AdSurf was legal. Go catch up on the current prosecution of Ad Surf at PatrickPretty.com
@MB
Really hope it does last a few more 90d rotations, MB. You and the other folks here do understand this biz better than I. Exodus was probably too drastic of a word, but I do think that at least a minute fraction of affiliates might have been swayed over the last couple of days.
I’m probably exiting too early, but I do want to minimize whatever risk I can.
@seeker
…which had nothing to do with Tissa’s explanation.
They have a two week leadtime to shuffle money around. The hell they’re having moving problems.
Dawn said nothing about money transfer problems, she flat out admitted Zeek Rewards do not pay out from e-wallets until affiliates top up the accounts with deposits themselves.
No of course not. There’s some imaginary limit set in place that prohibits businesses from conducting transactions of greater than $999,999.
That’s how the American economy functions.
No it isn’t. Ever growing VIP balances need every growing profits to continue to re-invest and buy even more VIP bids to convert to points.
Except that it already has. Not enough affiliates were investing via NXPay so the company pulled the plug on NXPay withdrawals.
Wake up.
Cop out.
You can ask your friend how many paying customers he has, the retail customers that will give him a 20% commission when they buy bids.
In case he can’t understand what you’re asking about:
Paying customers are people he has personally referred as customers. Usually they will try some free bids first, but after awhile they will start to buy retail bids. And each time they buy a bidpack, he will get matching VIP points and a 20% commission.
So if he has 10 customers buying an average of 100 retail bids ($65) each week, he will get 650 matching VIP points and $130 commission.
Please ask him to not include any fake customers he has created, like family members or friends only acting as real customers.
Soon affiliates will realize the characterization of “growing pains” as the root cause of Zeek’s problems-to-date is really just a polite way of saying “really bad programming and lack of business experience”.
Zeek’s new favorite eWallet is Payza (formerly AlertPay) since they are having problems with outbound payments with both NxPay and SolidTrustPay.
But they still are having problems just processing AlertPay payments (income!). What did Paul Burks say about only .1% are having problems and 99.9% work smoothly?
Just a small snippet of issues:
NxPay due on 6/25 is still late for many affiliates. This one was colorful:
Companies can and do move millions around routinely. Hundreds of millions. A call could be made to the bank in the morning, and a hundred million dollars would be wired and in their account, cleared, before lunch.
Got a guy “DnD100” that actually formed some INTELLIGENT rebuttals to the points in my ZR hub! Wow! 😀
Not through just-established accounts and new business partnerships, particularly for less-than established entities working through other companies which are not banks.
I think that is a very important distinction which even I failed to appreciate on first read — e-wallet processors of the kind Zeek is using are not banks. One does not just transfer millions of dollars in and out of them.
To do this, they must interface with banks, and especially for huge transactions, delays (and charges) occur. This is extremely plausible, in fact I would say it’s highly likely to happen, in addition to anything else that may or may not be happening.
Yes, they *can* be.
AND they can *also be* signs that they are having cashflow problems.
Which is exactly that: cashflow problems. And couldn’t they have anticipated that as NxPay is the “cheapest” (for the affiliates) to use? After all, THEY PICKED three eWallet providers, so the common sense thing to do is to keep enough reserve at all three eWallet providers to handle the cashouts, right?
And when the reserve ran out and you are having problems getting more in, but it’s merely a time issue, then you tell everybody “NxPay suspended for 48 hours while we deposit more funds as we did not anticipate so many affiliates cashing out”.
You don’t make up a cockamamie story about getting Big Macs -at Burger King.
Except they thought the chances of losing their money is a lot LESS than it is. THAT is considered fraud.
By the way, very, very few companies move millions around easily and regularly. You know not of which you speak.
@seeker
That only begs the question of why a two year old company was all of a sudden booted from their established banking relationships.
Yeah you can swallow the ‘we got too big for them’ jizz, but as Wright-Olivares said, banks love money. You only get booted if from an insurance or regulatory standpoint they start getting suspicious.
Well then, with all due respect what moron management team shifts to an electronic platform not able to service their requirements?
Zeek Rewards abolished checks and that’s entirely on them.
Indeed, however Zeek Rewards put out a press release stating all their banking problems were solved. Not to mention they have a two week lead time to sort out commissions. They also don’t pay out commissions daily.
That’s because very few companies sign members up, take money from them and just pay it out to other members without even touching the money, as seems to be the case with Zeek’s e-wallet set up.
How is it fraud? Put up or shut up; there’s no evidence of that. No return is ever promised, that is strictly adhered to. Everyone joining knows they are out on a limb.
That’s the whole point of the compliance effort, which you deride while it renders your assertions demonstrably false. Keep dredging up the past because in the present, you are wrong.
Let’s face it, you guys are too emotionally involved here, most likely because a lot of people are making a lot of money on this MLM. You would do better to stay more objective, but it is really, really obvious you guys are emotionally invested.
Just read entire comments in your hub. Refreshing. You finally got a forminable reader. Good for you. Lex Luthor needed Superman. You can decide who is who : )
@seeker
Telling people you make money from penny auctions, when all you’re doing is having members deposit money into e-wallets and then paying the same members out of e-wallets without even touching the money yourself is… what exactly?
A variable return is guaranteed over 90 days and is most certainly strictly adhered to.
A ‘don’t say this, don’t say that’ compliance effort does nothing to change the business model, which is all that matters.
Yeah, sure thing champ.
Chang, I believe seeker just speculated with speculation. Help me here, is this Ad hoc, Or slippery slope fallacy. I’m too emotional to think this through.
Troy Dooly took the time to reply regarding my concerns that Zeek is an investment, and the lack of retail customer evidence. Part of his reply below:
How so? Can affiliates not use their own links to shop with?
@Al
Myself and others I know have been cashing out now for the last couple of weeks.
I am in business myself and have been for years, and the whole “growing pains” excuse and other spin is growing tired to my ears. For a “rock solid 14 year old company” it seems more like total business incompetence- really…
I read the FB and Skype chats for amusement now- it’s like they are trying to convince themselves by convincing each other of the longevity of this scheme.
This site is the most sensible thing I have read on Zeek since I joined.
Dude, I work in international banking. How did you arrive “You know not of which you speak?”
@Oz
Sorry about the overzealous use of clips. I have been compelled to inject humor to keep from having a logical meltdown.
And you do? And how *do* you know that we don’t know?
How about: it passes the Howey Test as an investment, but insist it is NOT investment?
Howey Test part 1: return is expected. Doesn’t say “required”.
Compliance is entirely focused on making the affiliates say the right things (according to Zeek), not in making sure it does *NOT* pass the Howey Test.
As Dooly said, “got no skin in the game.”
Do you?
I’d classify the fallacious parts (he did raise a couple decent points that are not completely fallacious) as confirmation bias, cherry-picking, and ad hoc ad hominem.
Until we see those qualifiers, we can only treat it as SPECULATION.
Same with the shopping mall thingie.
Remember, Burnlounge got burned when it was demonstrated that majority of the income (97%) paid out to affiliates are through selling the mogul (affiliate) positions, not in selling songs and such.
Unless they can prove that this so-called mall can generate sales BEYOND that of profit share, it STILL won’t pass the Howey test. Affiliates are NOT making major policy decisions in the company, so part 4 is satisfied, despite “wishful thinking” to the contrary.
This mall may save them from being declared a pyramid scheme through the Koscot test, but I don’t see it saving them from the Howey test, but it’s too late and I can’t think straight.
(And Burnlounge is hit by FTC as a pyramid scheme. SEC is the one that goes after unregistered investments and Ponzi schemes)
It would be nice if Dawn & Burke answered the tough questions “live” with a Q & A without her husband dooly jumping in to save now that would be funny I can only imagine her facial expression like a deer in headlights.
Cut the bullshit Dawn & Burke grow some balls answer the tough questions so we can all live happily ever after.
I have been waiting for an explanation for hours without asking about it. But, how did you come to that conclusion?
We have ZeekRewards where money comes IN, mostly from affiliates “investing” in bids, but also from affiliates paying membership fees and a few other fees.
We have Zeekler, where people spend BIDS in auctions. Zeekler doesn’t generate much revenue, but it might have a few paying customers.
And then we have ZeekRewards again, where money goes OUT, mostly to the old “investors” after they have compounded their VIP points in a “system”.
Exactly where do you find the “mathematically sound business model” in this system? The business model is “money comes IN from new investors, and goes OUT to old investors”.
Do you guys think Zeek will make it to 2013?
If Zeek tries to run, wouldn’t the authority step in and take charge of their situation?
Is it true that you do not need to verify Payza to withdraw via check?
Hey guys – I’ve been reading your blog for a month now. Very interesting points.
Here is another one. Check out this site: ezprc.com
It claims to give you 2 PRC’s Preferred Retail Customer. I paid for these back in May. Zeek was having “credit card processing” at that time. ezprc.com sent me 2 emails receipts that these 2 accounts paid for silver PRC memberships.
Well it’s been 2 months and they still show as free customers and i’ve never gotten any commissions from them to date.
Interesting that i have 2 customers that actually trying to buy monthly bid packs and it’s been over 2 months for Zeek to collect actually money?
Is it safer to keep one commission in zeek or a recently open and unverify payza account and will withdrawing over 10k freeze one payza account
Tough to tell and no one wants to be forced to speculate, but based on all of the problems odds are we should start seeing signs of Zeek collapse before 2013.
That’s a big “it depends”. It depends how much money is at stake, which regulatory agency gets involved, what their current case load is, etc.
No verification needed to receive funds in Payza. No verification needed to withdraw by check, but check available in US only.
(There may be a max limit on check withdrawal for unverified accounts.)
What would you say te limit check withdraw would be for uncertified accounts
When verifying via bank confirmation, Payza states that two small micro debit will be charged from your bank account. Does it matter if the person is using a checking or savings to verify?
I understand that checking are what you used to pay, but savings you can’t pay with. So if you provide payza with your savings account, will payza still be able to charge the person the two micro debit from the person’s savings?
my zeekreward account is locked.
i contact my upliner he say you email ID change hack your account..
Another growing pains issue is occurring. My account along with my downlines’ have been locked out. Others on zeek support had the same problem.
It seems the only solution is to wait it out. Why is it so difficult to get my money out of zeek?
@ lee
Why have you been lock out? What did you do? You are locked out because you withdrew money?
Now, now… Dawn’s engaged to Alex deBrandtes, the internet marketing guy at Zeek. Why she kept her married name is beyond me. But no, she ain’t married to Dooly.
Because it’s meant to be a money sinkhole: things go in, and doesn’t really come out, except those with huge VIP point balances (read: Top Zeekheads, including Dawn and various ASD refugees)
If you are a conspiracy theorist, you can theorize that they ONLY allow the top VIP folks to withdrawn their money, thus letting them advertise (but only verbally, and read a long disclaimer) that they got this much $$$$$$ out of Zeek!
And have them tell stories about how they built up the point balance by leaving it in for LONG periods of time (over a year by now). And convince gullible sheeple that they can do the same thing and get the same results!
Makes as much sense as “Zeekler generates so much profit from auctions we just feel generous and share it.”
They said they are opening a new e wallet for global payments
Do you guys think they will get that e wallet up and running before they run
I guess that would solve nxpay problem
What K. Chang said. Plus, with all the problems that affiliates are having and lack of customer service, it will take affiliates longer to catch on once there’s no money left.
Get them used to waiting a month or two to get paid, and that’s a lot of lead time you have when you need to skip town.
Here’s what Zeek said Feb 7, 2012:
They asked all the affiliates to get on NxPay. They released videos, Powerpoint slides, and had a webinar on how to setup your NxPay account.
Now that everyone is on NxPay, all of a sudden they can’t make payments.
So time to use yet-another-eWallet. If I read between the lines, I don’t think they are bringing on a new eWallet, but instead one that integrates with other eWallets to allow you move money to and from different eWallets.
Of course, the easiest thing to do is just write checks and support direct deposit, but that would require you to have a bank and weren’t so high risk a business from a regulatory perspective.
Hey gang, I need some advice please…
I have serious money in late, as of yet unpaid, commissions owed to me. Total silence from zeek support.
I honestly know very little about MLM, so…
Where, if anywhere, can I turn to for recourse/answers? Law enforcement? NC Justice Department? FTC? Hire a lawyer? Thanks.
I would post on zeeksupport forum and make some noise. It seems the loudest affiliates complaining that they haven’t been paid will get paid.
My customer support tickets have yet to be answered, some are months old.
Jimmy
Does it matter if one use a savings account to be charge the two micro debit or does it have to be a checking account for verification
Thanks Jimmy, I did post on the zeeksupport forum, but I’m afraid to make too much noise for fear of being banned or ‘hacked’
The muted response so far from zeek employees is that it will be looked into – which I see as a non-answer. Instead of telling us it will be looked into, they should have actually turned to the person responsible, posed the question, received an answer, relayed that answer, and among them see to it that the problem is resolved.
That’s not how Zeek works…
Al
What e wallet you used to withdraw and have not been pay
Is it just nxpay people who are not being pay
Seem to me that stp and ap is working
@Hi bye
This time I used nxpay
After the “Burger, french fries, drive through window” explanation, Dawn gives an update regarding a compliance and marketing course that is originally $15/month(and magically offer if for one annual fee of $29.99).
If you click on the yougetpaidtoadvertise.com link a promotional video pops up that looks to discourage new affiliates from “googling zeek rewards.”
The video also warns of new affiliates joining with different people than the ones who referred them. Is this just another way for Zeek to bring in new affiliate money? Do you think they are going to make it a mandatory? I can see no practical reason for an affiliate to normally pay $15/month for the marketing videos…
Anyone seeing monthly sales requirements and minimum downline affiliate signup qualifications coming in the near future to keep it going?
Nxpay is probably the problem then because nxpay isn’t big enough to handle every transaction at least from my understanding
You will prob have to wait it out
STP is still behind. Not all affiliates have received their 6/18 payment, small number are reporting 6/11 still outstanding, and 6/25 not yet paid for most.
Zeek can’t seem to figure out why people haven’t been paid. Are they stonewalling and have cash flow problems? Or is it something as ‘innocent’ as just having really, really, really bad software design and human process such that they thought they paid people but STP never received it, but they marked it as paid.
This is why they are asking affiliates to give them information rather than just looking at their own records to see who has been paid and not paid. The first issue is fraud & deceit, the second issue is just sloppy business.
Whether it’s the first or second issue or some combination thereof, I’d be more comfortable if a government agency were to step in and educate them.
I don’t understand why stp shows this error but why not ap
Just for the record (and perhaps to add some perspective): I’ve been paid on-time, every time by Zeek since I first joined almost seven months ago. All payments via AlertPay/Payza.
What about claw back from may
What if those have not withdrew those yet
What makes payza much better than every other payment processor
They r as expensive as stp
That’s the problem with Zeek Support: it gives the APPEARANCE that they are solving problems, but when the only ones handling the money is at corporate, all the underlings (even those posting as “employee” in the support forums) can only promise that “we’ll look into it” or “we’ll escalate it to corporate”.
It’s whitewash, not real solution.
Growing pains I do understand. Persistent problems is not just growing pains, but points at endemic problem. Add that to Zeek blaming the affiliates for everything, and you got a corporate philosophy of denial: there is no problem, everything is fine.
If there’s a problem, you confront it and solve it, not spin it, blame it, cover it, and ignore it.
The title saids no money in and out bla bla. There is still money going in via stp and ap right? Just not nxpay, right?
The tax question is now answered: Zeek reports ALL RPP as income for you on the 1099-MISC, whether you received it as cash or repurchased bids.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/organized-crime/rex-venture-group-ll/rex-venture-group-llc-zeekler-BBB0C.htm
Now that’s not a crime in itself, so take that report with a few grains of salt, but this brings up an interesting question:
AFAIK, only INVESTMENTS report income that you don’t actually receive.
Yet this person obviously got reported income of several hundred, but received ZERO into pocket… 100% repurchase.
Does that “prove” that Zeek is an investment? Is there something that reports UNRECEIVED income that’s NOT an investment or some sort?
Money is only going in via NxPay and AP. Not STP.
Money is only coming out via AP and STP. Not NxPay. Though many are seeing delays of 2-3 weeks for STP payments, still not yet caught up from last week, and already 3 days behind for this week’s 6/25 payments.
What about Claws back? I know people who did not even cash out claw back because they think they will bring back the checks. Should I advise claw back to AP?
K. Chang,
I do not get the point? I thought it was legal to report your expenses. Couldn’t that guy just report his expense and then pay nothing in tax because he recevie no income. I don’t see the point of that post.
@Kschang
No worries, you would expect nothing less than such low blows when critiquing scams run by thugs. It was a nice rebuttal btw :).
Do you think some people have discounted the strong possibility that alot of the traffic on zeekler.com is from the zeek affiliates themselves, not real customers?
If you examine the alexa traffic from the click stream, a very high proportion of Upstream Sites is from the same website.
Which sites did users visit immediately preceding zeekler.com? zeekrewards.com and downstream sites: Where do visitors go after leaving zeekler.com? zeekrewards.com
Funny Troy failed to notice that..
If you don’t click on link in the back office to rescind your clawback check, it will sit there idle and you’ll never get paid.
You can also ask on Zeek support forum. It just so happens people know more about Zeek here than on the forums.
He will eventually get his money back in a way – except to pay tax next year.
Having such a huge expenditure, wouldn’t it put risk for affilates? Wouldn’t the IRS catch on and be a little sucipious?
I was just on moneymakegroup forum and noticed several people got hacked.
How would they possibly get hack? Can someone explain to me? I understand that their security is low, but if you are going on Zeek all day and a classified ads and some other safe sites, then should not people be getting hack?
I know some guy who don’t have any security on his computer and never once he caught a virus or got hack – so he tells me – because security slows down the computer’s processor.
What I wrote on the hacking:
Ha, that’s a near certainty.
Got to figure that the IRS won’t touch zeek because they’re just way too big and they’d have to hire thousands of new agents just to handle the volume of customer support calls affiliates will be making.
There is heaps of posts in zeek forum of accounts being hacked. It depends on the individual circumstance.
Sometimes Hackers can crack passwords using keyloggers. Also, if you try logging in too many times with the wrong pass or Username it will lock you out.
Basically zeek is acting like a “bank” but with pathetic security which makes it a strong target, especially since a high proportion of traffic to ZR is from Russia.
The ripoffreport wasn’t meaningful at all. It was clearly some communication problems behind that complaint. 🙂
I will consider the tax method they have used to be a potential problem, but the tax discussions are already spread in too many different threads here.
It will be better to wake up one of the other threads if somebody wants to discuss the tax issue. The most recent discussion has been in the “$100,000 fraud occurring” thread.
They can save time and work if they check Rex Venture Group directly, instead of checking all the affiliates. But then they will need to know WHAT they should check.
Checking 15,000 affiliates in the US isn’t so complicated. They don’t have to hire one agent per affiliate. 🙂
I’m not sure if people are getting hacked or not, but I couldn’t get in my site off and on for a few days now, the same for many in my down-line. But eventually we were able to get in.
I think it’s just a hiccup in the software unless something is going on that no one knows about. Anyway, who is running that IT department?
I have a question why do you guys make a big deal that having such a huge expense is not good while having low income
I mean when u first open a business u have to buy supply to set up everything so wouldn’t ur expense be big anyways
Plus I saw the compliance thing and it said if the company has a income statement disclosure than anyone can make any income claims they want
I ask a lot of ppl if they were able to deduct their expense last year and they all say yes and I don’t see the IRS up and in their business yet
Also why would a CPA advised their customer to deduct that huge expense of they think they would get into trouble
If you have a business that’s NOT generating profit, it may trigger an audit by the IRS.
http://www.mainstreet.com/article/moneyinvesting/taxes/top-irs-audit-triggers-what-you-need-know?page=3
It’s not as if you can transfer your points to someone else, right?
I think they are blaming Zeek IT errors on “hacking”, but that’s merely conjecture on my part.
Really what are the rate of an audit if no profit
But wouldn’t ur first year be not so much anywyas
Well what if u made like 20k and 100k in expense would that be close to an audit I mean u did make profit right well u made money
Usually, it’s an audit trigger, that you have unreported income or large amounts of savings, to be able to afford this sort of “expenses”.
Business is supposed to make money. If you lose money or barely broken even for 2 years in a row you’ll be suspected of falsely reporting a hobby as a business to get deductions.
If you mean the Zeek Income disclosure statement and do some math, it shows a lot of interesting facts, which I discussed in my hub. Like they only have 15000 active affiliates in 2011, or they paid out 58.5 million in RPP.
Actual payout is likely much much less as most people set a high repurchase ratio. I doubt they paid out more than 15 mil, most of it to the top affiliates.
“Yet” being the operative word. 🙂
Because CPA was told the same narrative: buying “bids” to “give away” is a “business expense”. CPA’s don’t study business models in general.
On a 1099-MISC? Wonder which box did they put it in?
http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i1099msc/ar02.html#d0e931
As such amounts are subject to self-employment tax, this can get tricky.
Idk what try put it in but that seem like a good estimate of what an affiliate would have
What are the rate to trigger an audit with having low income and high expense
But if u say it would trigger an audit then afdilaye gain nothing from this because of the bid expense counts towards income so it’s all loss wouldn’t u say
K Chang
Okay, lets say you were a CPA and a Zeek Affilate. Your total income is 100k and you withdrew 20k. You have 80k in expenses. What would you do?
You understand that giving away bids is a form of expense, so would you deduct the whole 80k – to be on the safe side to get an audit?
Things are really heating up over at that support forum re: nx pay…
A couple of the affiliates borrowed arguments we’ve made here and have posted some good questions.
Most affiliates drink the kool aid and pretend Zeek will always take care of them. Everything can be forgiven except slow payment!
@Hi Bye — if you DON’T deduct the full amount, you’re paying taxes on money you didn’t pocket. It’s a Catch-22. Trigger the audit, or pay taxes on money you didn’t earn.
If you deduct little enough, you pay more in taxes than you ever pocketed. Remember, self-employment tax is at least 25%. So if you got 1099 that says 10000 earned, and you put in 8000 in repurchases, so your actual money in pocket is $2000.
If you deduct all 8K you need to pay $500 in self-employment tax alone. That’s 1500 in pocket.
If you deduct only half, then your income is $6000, so your self-employment tax is 1500. Leaving you 500 in pocket
I have a CPA do my own tax returns, so I’m not too familiar with taxes, but I think the income tax is on top of self-employment tax. 🙂
I guess it would depend if you called commissions to affiliates as debt. I would and in that case it’s hard to say zeek is ‘debt free’. Robbing peter to pay paul could also be said as borrowing from Peter to pay Paul’s wages, which would infer a debt.
I’m pretty sure Dawn meant “in the black” instead of in the red.
But then, what expenses do they have?
Oh, I can see that penny auction *can* be profitable. So why have a Ponzi/MLM plan on top of it? Pity…
What is the point of people wanting to run a Ponzi and zeek get in with the law so how they gonna run
What do they et out of it anyways
From a Zeek employee on the support forum TODAY:
Also, from 1 hour ago, a super Zeek supporter who replies to all of those asking questions to be positive and just pretend everything is alright:
From 2-hours ago, from a Zeek employee:
From 1-hour ago, from a eek employee:
But this was posted to the support forum YESTERDAY:
Assuming there is no new status change, it seems like the employees and Zeek supporters are saying “any minute now” and “it’s NxPay’s fault”, but when an affiliate contacted NxPay customer support THE PREVIOUS DAY (before the supportive Zeek posts), NxPay told the affiliate “Dawn has stopped any commission payments through NxPay until further notice.”
Hard to know exactly what is going on from just forum posts and hearsay, but if you connect the dots, and you consider the practical situation which is that many affiliates are NOT getting paid from NxPay and STP payments are still behind 2 weeks for many, and on top of all this there is no information, updates or transparency from Zeek corporate who know that no information is worse than negative information (because it causes lots of complaints and speculation), one has to wonder what is really going on back there?
Troy Dooly’s positive assertion that all affiliates should be paid by July 4 may not happen.
Zeek will eventually pay affiliates for last week and this week, but then the delays NEXT week will just start up the cycle all over again.
K chang
But if there is audit wouldn’t u win anyways since u can explain it to them and u would show no money since the expense is on the computer
What zeek affiliate deducted what are the. Chances of an audit
Zeek had an CPA on the call last year so why didn’t he mention that you can risk audit because from what I heard he seem to be knowledgable enough
Does it matter? Years of living in luxury, rarely if ever go to jail… Bernie Madoff went to jail because it’s so egregious.
The guy behind the Pigeon King scam didn’t spend a day in jail despite swindling over 20 million bucks and caused 1000+ farmers to lost 100K+ each and millions of pigeons euthanized for nothing. He got a farm and money into his OTHER businesses that he didn’t declare bankruptcy on.
Authoritieis in Canada eventually charged him with bankruptcy fraud… still pending in court.
I don’t know. I don’t work for the IRS.
Oh, Howard Kaplan is a very famous tax guy, but he gave only generic advice, i.e. “you can deduct business expenses” (then Dawn jumped in and interpreted it as bid purchases). Basically he’s hired to give a generic speech that sounds impressive, adds “credibility” to Zeek, but doesn’t really help the affiliates.
He also gave some cockamamie about “line 2” deductions when that line isn’t even used in 2011 tax return! (That’s in my hub, really).
I haven’t checked the effect of the tax method they have used, how it will affect the individual taxpayer. I have only pointed out the method is questionable and incorrect from my viewpoint (partly because I see Zeek as a Ponzi scheme).
And I found Howard Kaplan’s methods confusing when I tried to check parts of his recipe. He was also very vague during the conference call on the most important parts, but he was very clear on general advises.
With Zeek’s tax method, both the affiliates and the company will get a higher income than they really have had. They will also get higher deductions. Zeek has a motive for doing this, to look more successful than they are. For an ordinary taxpayer, a motive like that is probably insane as a tax strategy.
A correct tax method will usually be the best method, the one that results in the lowest taxes and is fully legal at the same time.
My downline has a payment that has requested on June 21 and is still listed as pending. June 25 payments, which should have been paid that day or the next, have also not been paid. Dawn O’s talk about e-wallets is misleading as you noted. It’s pure fantasy.
I can no longer recommend Zeek. They treat the affiliates like garbage and when you don’t pay your people on time it’s time to move on.
Of course. All the sites like this one are showing up instead of all the pro-zeek cheerleading sites they seeded the internet with when they started it.
Search for “zeek rewards scam” and see how many websites which at first appear to be warning people that it’s a scam, but upon reading are nothing but “you’re going to make $$$$” advertisements. I’m sure they did this to derail anyone searching the internet to see if it’s a scam or not.
You would have to ask the people who have run Ponzi schemes, from all the way back to Charles Ponzi, to Bernie Madoff and the people who ran Ad Surf Daily.
Probably some of the reasons K. Chang mentioned, but perhaps maybe they convince themselves that their ponzi will keep going on forever. Or maybe they just enjoy the ride while it happens.
All too often the “why would they run a ponzi?” question is used in defense of Zeek, as if nobody has ever operated one before. Regardless of the reason or the question if it’s sane to do so, people have run ponzis and will continue to do so in the future.
From Zeek Forum:
STP will also not verify you if you have a P.O. Box.
Everyone paying attention predicted “going paperless” was a huge mistake. Zeek claimed they had to as a result of size.
At best they miscalculated, at worst they deliberately moved away form paper checks because they can now “blame the eWallets” as the hassles related to eWallets help masks their own cash flow issues.
They could use the request a check option to withdraw their funds from Payza.
And wait 10+ days. That’s a lot of delays between drag time from Zeek + deposit delays + withdrawal time for PayZa. STP is taking up to 30 days now from date you request check (amount id deducted from your account) to when check is sent.
Also, Payza stopped accepting credit cards, again. They keep losing their credit card processors (probably due to high risk/fraud). Every few months they turn off credit card processing.
With deposit problems via STP, and with NxPay not accepting credit cards, that leaves no credit card deposit option…. except…. (drum roll please)….
You can buy retail penny auction bids and get the 20% commission and matching VIP points. Oh, wait, I forgot, most of Zeekler’s credit card charges are being declined due to fraud.
Some have tried “every credit card in my wallet” and then had to deal with fraud alerts being placed on the credit cards.
You can still use bank wires to get money into NxPay or Payza, but that really raises the barrier to entry and fires up the fraud radar when the ONLY method of getting money is a bank wire.
Exactly, he is a famous tax guy, so if he knew that zeek affilate bid purchases were going to be more than their income, and if dawn thought it meant bid purchases, why didn’t howard kaplan correct dawn? He never mention it would be okay if it is an audit?
I also remember that he said you can have 0 income, and he never said anything about being in danger or having an audit? Are you sure you can be audited for having more bid expense than income?
Is that guy sure you can’t verify with bank confirmation anymore? There are three option, phone, bank confirmation, and cc validation. From my understand, bank confirmation seems to still work, all you need to do is add the two micro debit.
I asked someone and they said you don’t even need to upload documents after entering the two micro debit, but I think he did that 2 weeks ago.
You can still add a bank account for verification so you can send money to Payza.
What you can’t do is withdraw money via bankwire from Payza in the US.
Also, depending on what state you are in the US, you can’t even “add a bank account” to verify or add funds.
I’d be surprised if Zeek made it until August. Been my prediction all along.
It turns out that only certain U.S states are not able to use bankwire/transfers due to licensing issues (according to one of the zeeksupport forum poster).
I confirmed this with my brother’s account who lives in TX. He does have access to the option to withdraw via bankwire/transfer, while I do not maybe because Payza has not acquired the license in CA.
@Vermillion
Ask your brother to try and click on the withdrawal button. It shows up but is grayed out and right below it says:
We apologize, but localized bank transfers to United Statesare not supported
No such message, it lists his bank account on the transfer to drop down menu. He has not requested before, in fact, this is the first time he has noticed it. I’ll have him test it out…once funds become available in his Payza account.
Do you guys know whether these state by state licensing issues are determined by what state the account holder lives or by what state the bank is located in?
I live in Illiois but my bank account was opened at a bank branch in New York. (State names changed to protect the innocent)
Jimmy
What about Credit card validation. Can you use a credit card to verify your payza account?
Also on the thing, it said after validation, your limit will increase to 1k. That makes no sense, is it refering to payza that after validation you will be able to spend 1k WITH Payza, or your limit on YOUR credit card will increase?
Do you guys know if it is allow to use another affilate Payza to withdraw from Zeek? Or is it just one payza per affilate?
Yes. You need 2 of 3: CC, bank, and phone. But you can’t add funds using credit card. When that option was available, it was deemed as a cash advance charged in Russia, so many got hit with a cash advance fee and a forex conversion fee.
You don’t need to be verified to request a check. There are different reports on how long a check takes to get from Payza. Some received it within 10 days, others have waited 3 weeks and counting.
Requesting a check via STP is horrendously slow – over 30 days for some currently. STP probably wants people to use the bankwire option so they can charge you the $40 fee.
NxPay was the best but currently is not available as a withdrawal option.
From an affiliate:
Jimmy
I was just on the forum, and read this:
“Deposit by credit card is temporarily unavailable due to maintainance.”
In addition, I also read people saying that they are not able to verify their two small micro debit with Payza because of whatever.
So how in the world are people suppose to verify their Payza if they can’t do the 2 of 2?
Its nearly impossible, and that was 1 month ago.
You said that you can still withdraw with check, but you said there may be a limit of how much can be withdrawn via check without a verify account.
People in Zeek are going to start withdraw huge amount, it won’t take long before Payza freeze them from being able to withdraw via check.
The only opition I see atm, is wait it out, or use another person Payza – if that is even allow?
What is that? SWIFT # and IBAN #
I noticed a lot of people having trouble with the Payza forum. Where do you get those information from?
ok, I am having some serious problems getting my money out of the zeekler, I have been waiting for my BANK TRANSFER forever.
Is solid Trust pay any good? is it transfering money to bank accounts quickly or is this sh*t apparent everywhere…
Lots of reported problemsfrom all affiliates on getting money from STP by check or bankwire.
Zeek is a high risk business not just on the legality and sustainability issues, but affiliates now have eWallet risk, or at a minimum lots of delays and fees.
A lot of affiliates have asked why doesn’t Zeek just go back to paper checks or use ACH like every other MLM and avoid the middle man.
The answer that we can pnly speculate on because Zeek refuses to address it other than claiming “we are too big” is that Zeek can’t get any banks willing to process transactions for such a high risk and likely illegal enterprise.
That is why the world of HYIP Ponzis all use these eWallets. If Zeek is not a HYIP, they would just use a normal business banking account like everybody else.
Those are bank to bank transfer ID’s you need for wire transfers.
Where do u get those id
Does stp check require verification first and if not what is the limit
I don’t know. I would speculate (on my own) that Kaplan was paid for the conference call and did NOT receive a full briefing on how Zeekler and Zeek Reward works, merely the super-condensed version that Dawn and PB prepared, i.e. whatever the website says.
You don’t, as Zeek never told us what bank they use. 🙂
Is it me or is Troy letting loose with more info about the banks? He in one of the replies said that NewBridge is “too small”, and BB&T is “not network marketing friendly”.
I don’t think zeek will drop dead just yet. They have a competition bidify.
Do they really want to get beat by them.
I truly believe that Dawn is the kingpin in zeekrewards and and conned Paul Burk to be pawn in this chess game. Think about it how much do we really see or here from Paul Burk. If you can’t see that Dawn and her MLM con men are running this show then open your eyes alittle wider.
How hard is it to find a good old boy that has an auction business that may make so so money for the last 14 years and convince him that you have thousands of mlmers that will promote your business and through their advertising effert will bring in millions of dollars.
This same thing just happen to a friend of mine that owned a business and was approached to tune it into a mlm opportunity. After I researched what he was getting into it in fact was a major ponzi scheme that had already cost him over 300k before I shut it down.
Think about this people she already has the so called expert Troy Dooly eating out of her hand so paul Burk that has no mlm experance is a complete lay down. I can just here her say Paul sit back and relax Me and my crew will take care of everything.
Paul in the end she will blame you for everything. Dawn I can see right through you and I got your number and it’s 911.
Actually, I think the instigator is Darryl Douglas. He was the one that started the word “compounding”, after all. Though I wonder if they had some help from ex Ad-Surf-Daily Ponzi folks on how to keep the Feds off their backs by relaying what did ASD do wrong to attract the Feds.
The fact that Andy Bowdoin was shut down in his “12DailyPro” HYIP is enough to make a blip on Fed’s radar. And Bowdoin did exactly that: kept the Feds off his back until they raided his office with undercover agents posing as members and joined as member to obtain evidence. (yes, they really did)
Two ASD Members are so peeved about this little subterfuge on part of the Feds that they claim that the Fed agents should have identified themselves when they joined and any evidence they gathered are illegal and obtained through fraud.
Yes, that’s how ridiculous it sounds. So much so, Federal Court just tossed their lawsuit out the window.
Guess where are these two gentlemen now? You guessed it: top affiliates at Zeek.
The way i see it Eve convinced Adam to eat the apple. Im not so up on all the player on zeekrewards are but a friend of mine ask me what I thought about what he got him self into. Me knowing about this business didn’t take but a moment to see through the BS.
It took me a while to convince him that this was a full fledged ponzi scheme. And after all said and done I think he still doesn’t want to believe me. I know this game very well. That is why I know Paul Burk may just start getting a clue on where the evil Dawn and crew are leading him.
The sad thing it may be to late for him. Their going to stick together like white on rice and throw him under the bus. I can promise you this she has a back door to get her money out because she is the coo. And will delay all other money as long as they can.
This Ship is sinking fast and may have another month. Don’t mean to be negitive but I know this business very well and all the Dawns of the world.
@NE14Aponzi
Why do you think Paul isn’t just as much a part of the evil crew as the rest of them?
When the COO is also an affiliate, her fiancee is the internet guy, AND her husband and step-son are in IT, one wonders what she CANNOT do…
Though that is, of course, pure speculation.
However, part of the analysis of a business is called “threat analysis”. (It’s a part of SWOT analysis) In a threat analysis, you judge your opponent’s CAPABILITY of doing harm, not their intentions (those can change).
If they want to mess with the affiliates they can EASILY do so. Remember, Madoff’s firm generated YEARS worth of fake statements to all of their clients. They *look* real enough that nobody doubted them until the Ponzi’s revealed
And it’s been LONG suspected that there are bots in auctions that drives up the prices (known as “shill bots”)
http://www.pennyauctionwatch.com/2009/12/bid-bots-are-illegal-unethical-shill-penny-auction-scripts-telebid-clone/
There’s no proof that they exist on Zeek… except for those odd auctions where people spent way too many bids on certain items.
Something to keep in mind for Zeekheads.
Oops, I meant to say “step son”, not “husband and step-son” sorry!
Not possible that Burks is unawares. C’mon folks, pretty basic business here. In an 11-15 person company moving 7 to 8 figures of cash flow, the CEO negotiates all the contracts and knows all the revenue numbers.
Let’s not veer off into pure speculation because Zeek backers will just think we are crazy.
My personal speculation? This ain’t PB’s idea. He spent 13 years in MLM making various companies and NONE of them made it big.
When Dawn, Alex, Dan, and Darryl joined the crew, they hit a jackpot called Zeekler. What are the chances that PB was the prime instigator?
Hello If you were the CEO of your business would you not be speaking out a this moment on issues that are at hand. Hell yes I would be. But insead I have Dawn and troy covering my ass.
Please you and me know at this moment we would be up in arms defending our business. And it would be coming out of the horses mouth. If me or you owned this business and people were talking shit about me and my company do you think for one moment that I or you would not make a video defending our companies honor. That would never happen in my world.
I totally believe that paul burk has no say so what so ever. And Paul if you do lets here what you have to say to your loyal affiliates. I don’t want to see something in writing from evil Dawm and crew. At this point I want to see it out of your mouth on video defending your company.
I think all of your loyal affiliates want to here from the preacher insted of the alter boys. that is in fact you are still in charge of zeekrewards.
Why do u think dawn is the evil genius messing with affiliates. She prob have more Han enough money
I think they may have cash problems but why would they want to run now. They have competition and just hired law ppl. They would want to prove their lame excuse first then say something to run
Well pb Don’t seem too intelligent to make up good bs plus he is old and prob can’t think quick enough compared to dawn and her slickness
Someone just emailed me and said checks will come back next week
Just earlier I hear ppl complaining, Wonder how this person knew
Then again they never actually said no more checks or did they. Do going green count
I was reading your hub kasey
I think u got somethig wrong. Not all members are require to do the compliance course, Only those in us according to the log in its only mandatory for us
@Hi Bye — I’ll look into that and make a correction.
(This is the difference between a skeptic and a zealot: a zealot don’t ever accept they’re wrong… They simply shift the goalpost with “special pleading” or “no true Scotsman”)
Lol even when it is a fact?
@K Chang,
Hi bye is right. Only affiliates in the US are required to take the compliance course.
But I think that’s a gonna be changing. Remember Zeek is going to have this new bundle with the advertising/videos & compliance course included. The cost is $29.99 annually. So why not make everyone take it, so they can also profit off the internationals.
Presently, the compliance course is $5 and the videos are $15 monthly. But, since so many have taken the compliance course and many affiliates already paying $15 monthly for the videos, I wonder will these individuals have to pay the annual fee.
With so much incompetence in Zeekland, I wonder how this one will play out. They’re already in way over their heads.
That’s what special pleading means: whatever he said was an EXCEPTION to whatever you said. 🙂
Or let me tell you the “No True Scotsman” example:
It’s funnier if you say it with a Scottish brogue. 😉
A Zealot would have said “I only meant people in the US! It was obvious!”
One thing that is yet to be clarified is the fact that ‘free bids’ can only be used on free auctions, yet most of the auctions on zeekler are either VIP or penny auctions which as I understand it should be made by retail customers.
I guess what I am asking is there any other way for peope to obtain retail bids or VIP other than by buying them as a genuine external customer or a by fake shill bids. Now Kschang speculates that it could be shill bidding, however I dont see how that would benefit Zeek as they mainly profit from real bids, not heightened product prices.
For example for $1 worth of bids, that is $65 to zeek. Now if a ‘shill’ bid the prices up half of those bids would be wasted, but if 2 shill bidders pushed the prices up, mostly ALL of the profits would be lost.
I CAN see how a shill bidder could benefit zeek if they were only bidding occaisionally simply to keep the auction going. But how can you prove this, it is only pure speculation/ theory. Well maybe it’s possible, perhaps the lady who bid 1400 times on $100 cash voucher (spending $910 to win $100) WAS the shill themselves, but accidently won the auction.
I guess it wouldn’t matter if they won the auction anyway as the real profit is made from the bids. The thing is though, not ALL auctions on zeekler end that way, for instance i did many legitimate products sell cheap and the buyer only put a few bids in.
Maybe a math person here can calculate how much VIP payout per day then calculate or estimate how many auctions are run per day and the avergage price multiplied by .65 subtract product value to get a rough but interesting comparison between money paid out and money coming in.
Now in no am I pushing zeek I aint an affiliate, but i believe such hard quesions need to be answered to determine the companies legitimacy. Another point worth raising in the negative to zeek is, if more people join zeek rewards, would it not mean the daily ROI must go down as it is shared between more people?
I fail to see how more members will mean more zeekler profit as clearly i dont see how more ads placed will lead to more people joining zeekler, most people dont click on spam, sorry!
The only thing that would go up is membership fees and VIP points, that side of things would lend itself to ponzi ish, if the ROI remains the same. If this was truely a legitimate business, the ROI should overtime decrease.
AFAIK, Paul Burks has run recruitment schemes for the last decade or more, not penny auctions. And Dawn and the others have been in-house employees for 10 years or so. So he’s not an innocent old guy who has been lured into an MLM-scheme by some con-artists.
Open your eyes and see that “good old boy running an auction business” from another perspective?
@Gabe
I can’t see any real motives for using shill bidders or shill bots in the Zeekler auctions. There’s too little money involved in Zeekler, so it would be meaningless to use shills.
Free bids and sample bids:
Free bids are the same as sample bids. Affiliates buys sample bids through ZeekRewards for $1 per bid, and give them away to fake or real customers as free bids, in order to get VIP points in return. The customer can use the bids in Free bids auctions.
VIP bids:
Each affiliate will receive a number of VIP bids through the monthly membership, so the VIP bids seems mostly to be used by affiliates.
Retail bids:
Retail bids are the bids originally designed for customers. Affiliate recruit (refer) customer, customer buy retail bids, affiliate gets 20% commission on the purchase plus matching VIP points (1 point for each dollar spent on bids), customer spend the bids in auctions.
But if you’re asking a number of affiliates, none of them seems to have any real retail customers, but some of them can be eager to show “proofs” for having some. So a number of affiliates are probably using family members and friends as “customers”.
The process goes like this:
* Affiliate sign up family member as customer.
* Affiliate withdraws money to pay for some bids.
* Affiliate transfers money to family member.
* Family member buy bids using a credit card
* Affiliate gets matching VIP points. The most important motive for using this method is the VIP points.
* Affiliate gets 20% commission on the purchase. The second most important motive for using this method is the commission.
* Affiliate use the retail bids himself, or let the family member use them. Or they can throw the bids away if they like to (bids are “worthless”). If some of them are really interested in the auctions, they can get double number of bids if they’re using the BOGO offers (2 bids for the price of 1).
* Affiliate earn the 90 day ROI on the VIP points.
So buying retail bids is only an alternative method to earn VIP points for the affiliates. Many affiliates will prefer this method instead of buying sample bids, or use this method in addition to buying sample bids.
Spending $650 on sample bids will give 650 VIP points, plus 650 sample bids that has to be given away to a customers.
Spending $650 on retail bids will give 650 VIP points, plus $130 commission, plus 1000 retail bids that can be used in auctions.
Since Zeek already has methods for generating bids for the auctions, adding some shill bidders would be meaningless.
@NE14Aponzi
From what I recall, I heard Dawn say in an interview that she’s been with Paul B. for 14 years. Paul isn’t innocent. He’s a shady old timer that’s been trying different schemes for 14 years and finally got lucky with Zeek…for the time being anyway.
Purely theoretically speaking, if the shillbots are controlled by the auctioneer, and the shillbot won the auction, then the auction item doesn’t have to be paid and shipped (as the winner doesn’t exist), but paperwork can be generated to count that as an “expense”.
Another theoretical scenario involves simply some random application of shillbots at random auctions to drive up the price of certain items, just to make them last longer and force real bidders to use up more bids. And if the shillbot won the game, see scenario one.
You can’t use the shillbot too much or people suspect fishy stuff’s going on. So you only use them sparingly, but a shillbot, when employed properly and programmed properly, *can* give the appearance of competitive bidding, and essentially allows the user to “rig” the auction.
Purely theoretically speaking, of course. There is no evidence that it’s used at Zeekler, merely some anomalous patterns of bid use that makes one SUSPECT of shill bidder.
But we are merely discussing CAPABILITIES, if one has the power to muck with the system from the inside.
FWIW, FSCAuctions, the predecessor of Zeekler, was started by Dawn and Alex, as a side venture to FSC, in March 2010.
Zeekler itself was started in June 2010 and FSC Auctions was renamed to Zeekler.
Zeekler bought client list of another penny auction going out of business due to new regulations in that state and promised to fulfill their orders as well in September 2010. I think this was also when Darryle Douglas came onboard running a different auction called MyBidShack. They claim they’re trying different comp packages.
In December they settled on the comp package details, merged the two auctions, and that became Zeekler that you and I know in January 2011.
So while Dawn and Alex and so on did get PB into auctions, I still say the instigator is Darryl Douglas. I don’t know who gave them the idea to copy ASD’s business model though.
I can’t find any motives like that in Zeekler. People will gladly spend their bids anyway, since most of them are affiliates. They are not paying for bids in the same way as normal customers.
Having a shill bot winning some auctions from time to time can be a possibility, but most auctions are won by affiliates. So the only effect a shill bot could have is to raise the price of an item, $1 per 100 bids, but making the auctions become less popular. So it seems like a bad idea for Zeekler to use shill bots.
Shill bots will only have an effect if you’re having real customers paying for the bids. So it can be a motive for normal penny auctions, but you can’t compare Zeekler to normal auctions.
Thankyou, I think you’ve nailed it. That would be obviously a form laundering wouldn’t you say? And wouldn’t that put the affiliates to blame if the thing collapses, not zeek rewardes?
Or, is there anything in the ZR fine print which denounces affiliates from signing up family members or friends as customers? I guess it’s pretty hard to control, but at the end of the day, the business model is deeply flawed and destined for a hard landing.
I don’t think you have shillbots. It’s the same argument as to why poker room operators will not be running bots – the risk is too great for small gains because one incident jeopardizes the entire enterprise.
The more likely scenario is:
1. Most accounts have bids that they value as nothing or next to nothing because they purchased them for the VIP points + 20% commission. They will use them in the auction to “get whatever they can”.
For myself, I used over a thousand bids to win $27 (the final difference between cash out value and closing price). Why? Because I didn’t care – I had to use my bids before they expired and I bought the bids just for the matching VIP points.
2. There are a few bots I have seen and you can detect their behavior with a few common bot-detection techniques (will save that for separate post, perhaps article I will send to Oz). These are often created by amateurs using macro recorders, or in some cases more advanced technology such as ubot.
They do a decent job at bidding by screen scraping to know when an auction has ended or when the count down timer is within 3 seconds, but they do a poor job at conditional logic. So the bots do not know when the price of the auction is too high and it should stop bidding.
Some of the commercial bots for other auctions do have that logic, but the commercial bots don’t support Zeekler yet (shows you how unimportant Zeekler is in the penny auction world).
“@Hi Bye — if you DON’T deduct the full amount, you’re paying taxes on money you didn’t pocket. It’s a Catch-22. Trigger the audit, or pay taxes on money you didn’t earn.”
I think I found a solution. When Zeek report and mail the affilate their 1099. The affilate should just pay what they put in their pocket and ignore everything else. Problem solve. If they get an audit, then they would have proof.
And there would be no evidence for the IRS that they made that much – only proof is shown on the 1099 which they can say it was an error.
Now, that sounds stupid, but I read a couple of people did that on the forum and they have not been audited. When is the audit season? Want to research up on that?
Looks like Zeek have a new advertising banner. Its the 20seconds thingy. No more splash pages. Guesss that anually 30 dollar cost is already started
I bet there were shill bidders on the day that mustang was on the auction. Then again, its a mustang and everyone get free bids – at least affilates for VIP
If you could at least prove that the re-purchased bids from your earnings are ordinary and necessary to your business, then you’ll be alright.
Prepare your documentation to back it up though, maybe a list of real prospects/customers that have participated in your advertising work.
Doesn’t work that way.
IRS gets a copy of the company’s 1099, that says they paid “1099-MISC income” to this many people who got it. IRS want to see a matching number on YOUR return.
If you don’t have a matching number, you’re going to get a “penalty for under-reporting”, and possibly trigger an audit THAT way.
The affiliate will be in trouble, but if complained hard enough it may turn a spotlight on Zeek. IMHO, not worth it for the affiliate.
Let’s not forget another motivator for buying bids from the penny auction — you can use a credit card @Zeekler but cannot @Zeek Rewards.
Credit cards have been turned off for bids that compound via back office since Dec 2011. Obviously that was a huge red flag early on, and you’ve seen nothing but banking and credit card processing issues sent.
It is amazing that Zeek continues to grow despite all of the issues that would be a huge deterrent in any other normal business. Can you imagine planning a vacation and the hotel tells you they don’t take credit cards and you have to pay them by setting up a bank wire to an eWallet provider based out of Russia?
I guess kschang said it best, something about greed and money and all that.
“If you could at least prove that the re-purchased bids from your earnings are ordinary and necessary to your business, then you’ll be alright.”
Yes – according to Zeek that is, but people on this blog are saying that having such a high amount expense will result an audit. Its almost no escaping with such a huge expense and with most affilate and new one having 0 income and all this expense. Do seem sucipicous
Lol, Zeek changed everyone’s everyone advertsing text banner to got20seconds but it doesn’t even work.
A study by the The Kaufman Foundation for Entrpreneurship released back in 2008 showed that 20% of small business do not profit during the first year of operations.
Take from that what you will, just be well documented to support your claims.
@Hi bye
I thought that was funny too. Not to mention, they didn’t bother to tell the affiliates. Seems they can’t get anything to work. Again, who’s running that IT department?
oops, its not just “small” business, but business in general.
I don’t believe so – they are the ones who set it up this way. I am not an expert, but almost any affiliate program in the world is designed to generate sales for the company and give you a percentage of THAT SALE.
If I signup as an affiliate for ‘blue widgets’ and I get 20% commission on every blue widget I sell, if I sell 10,000 of them to only my friends and family, yes I am getting commissions, but the company is getting 80% of it.
They WANT you to sell it. It shouldn’t matter at all who they are for. The company still makes 80% of the money and you get your cut, they get their product. Everything is legit.
Some big places like amazon that sell everything I think may have limitations like not having family members use your affiliate link because they’d just buy all their household stuff through it etc.. but this is a specific “product” private affiliate offer, and by the way, one you are paying to be a member of.
There are plenty of MLMers, I mean it’s almost a cliche, that they ONLY sell to (or recruit) their family members because who else are they going to sell to in the beginning?
If the company itself decides to do point matching or whatever for every sale, it’s on them – yes? I can’t see how it could be laundering etc, if you sign up to be an affiliate to sell bids, and you sell them to your family.
This was another sign of business incompetence. They misuse the term “affiliate” completely.
Well the only document you can get is from an afdilaye back office and that do not seem to be good documents
All it would show is how much bid is given each day and how much you generate and if zeek die before 2013 how will afdilaye support their claim if they can’t even log into their back office if they were audited
Don’t seem like it is possible to get good documents
Even though the study show 20 percent don’t make profit their first year
Zeek expense will always be higher than income regardless so would that get a little sucipous next year if not first year
I am wondering the same thing too.
You selling to friends and family are fine, as long as they are *real sales*.
But if you are buying 10K widgets to “give away”, just so you or your upline can qualify for commission, then the business model is illegal.
Weber vs. Omnitrition addressed that. Omnitrition actually told affiliates to give away the stuff they can’t sell as “promotion”. Omnitrition was declared to be a pyramid scheme since it was found to be NOT following the Amway safeguard rules.
And isn’t the ENTIRE ZeekRewards model based on giving away the stuff you buy, to qualify for “profit share”?
The main issue isn’t the internal consumption or inventory loading that is an MLM issue. The main issue is the investment Ponzi, where you don’t have to sell anything.
You can buy $10k worth of VIP bids and never make another single sell and earn compounding interest on the $10k investment, aka “bid purchase”.
@EM
Uh, where’s the 90 day ROI investment scheme in your example? In your analogy the motive is 20% commission. In Zeek Rewards it’s earning a 90 day ROI on your money.
For affiliates outside the US, I will consider that method to be worth using. For affiliates inside the US, it will probably cause some additional tax problems.
The method is clearly set up to be used. It will generate activity that looks like real customers buying retail bids, so this method is highly important for Zeek, in order to look more like a real business.
The affiliate will earn the 20% commission in addition to the VIP points, and will also have the bids to spend in auctions — generating activity for Zeekler and make it look more profitable.
The affiliate’s upline will lose some commissions, but that shouldn’t be any problem. There’s no rules against using this method, so people can choose to use the method they like.
For the US affiliates, it can cause a potential tax problem. It’s hard to find a method to file deductions for purchase of retail bids they use themselves. Sample bids on the other hand can be filed as marketing expenses or something similar. They will probably lose more than the 20% commission on taxes if they use this method.
I would have felt perfectly comfortable using a method like that if I had been a non-US affiliate:
* when the VIP point balance has reached a certain level
* and only used it as an additional method
“But if you are buying 10K widgets to “give away”, just so you or your upline can qualify for commission, then the business model is illegal.”
Well zeek said going away bid is a trial so if they like they will join the auction and that creates revenue
To balance the information here a little, there is possible to find SOME affiliates that tries to attract customers. I have found a few of them in different threads.
I believe maybe “Shirley” in the thread about Zeek on MlmHelpDesk tries to attract customers, as a major part of her own business plan when she tries to build a downline in Zeek.
People who don’t have customers as part of their plan will usually get emotional if you ask them about customers, and people who have customers as a part of their plan will feel more relaxed, even if they don’t have any customers yet.
@M_Norway – a bit confused
Why would they file or do anything w/ bids that a friend/family member bought? The family member bought them (maybe you gave them the $ like in the example above but that person made the purchase, you wouldn’t try to deduct that..) unless you are talking about literally buying from yourself under an account you yourself create?
@KChang – My comment/question was more in regards to the ‘laundry’ question which I interpreted as asking if the *affiliate* themself could get in trouble for having a family member or whatever buy bids, which I don’t see how that could be possible. As far as what it means about Zeek Rewards itself as a model that is another thing, for sure.
You will have to pay taxes for the money withdrawn to buy bids, and it’s difficult to find how to post them as deductions.
Having to pay taxes for an amount is “a possible tax problem” in my opinion, when the main motive for withdrawing the money is the extra 20% commission you can earn. If the main motive is the bids and they’re willing to pay for them, the method is OK.
But I have also used another tax logic than Zeek. I don’t consider the RPP paid to the backoffice to be taxable income. Where others will accept it as “cash equivalence” and “constructive receipt”, my opinion is that the daily profit share won’t pass the different tests.
So I’m not willing to recommend this method to US’ taxpayers, but for other affiliates the method seems to be OK to use. The affiliate will earn 20% extra commission, and the upline will lose 10% and 5% commission.
I still think you’re wrong here.
As I’ve stated, the daily profit share is given to you in cash. You decide what you want to do with it. Would your opinion change if the daily profit share was automatically deposited to your bank account, then a separate process automatically pays out of your bank account an amount to “reinvest”?
If the RPP was always virtual points, I definitely see your point, but the RPP is always paid out in cash and you then direct what you want to do with that cash.
Put another way, let’s say you do nothing but set reinvestment to 0% and wait 90 days. You’ll accumulate a cash balance. That you decide to reinvest someone or none during that 90 day period doesn’t change the fact that you have income, that is in cash, that you can put in your bank account.
@EM
In the method I presented (copied from Jimmy), the main motive is to earn the extra 20% commission. The affiliate CAN earn some extra commission by signing up family members or friends as PRC customers. They don’t have to be real customers.
In my method, the affiliate PAID for the expenses, using money he had withdrawn earlier. So the method is only a recycling of the affiliate’s own money.
* withdraw money (taxable income)
* pay for retail bids (not deductible)
* earn commission (taxable income)
* earn matching VIP points
So if you repeat the process 10 times, buying 1000 retail bids each time, you will have generated a taxable income of $6,500, plus $1,300 taxable income from the 20% commission. In that case, Zeek has paid you $7,800 in taxable income, but you have wasted most of that income on buying retail bids and spending them in auctions.
If you repeat the process 100 times then you’ll have a serious tax problem. 🙂
This is not a tax problem if your family members and friends are real customers, willing to pay for the bids with their own money. But then THEY probably have a gaming problem.
Yes, my viewpoint will change if the money is transferred to an eWallet or to a bank account.
Zeek isn’t a bank, so having an amount displayed in the backoffice as “Available cash” is only a misleading description. It won’t pass the test if someone tests it against the two tax doctrines, “Cash equivalence” and “Constructive receipt”.
Wikipedia showed some examples for where the test will fail, and Zeek will clearly fail more than the examples.
One of the examples was a person who received a check in the mail close to the end of the year. The check had been delayed for some weeks before it arrived. The postman tried to deliver it, but the person was not home at the time, so he returned the check to the postoffice.
The person collected the check at the post office a few days later, in the beginning of the next year, and cashed it out.
IRS initial stand in the case was that the amount was taxable for the tax year, because the check had arrived in the mail that year.
That decision was later overruled by a higher autority, using the two tax doctrines as main arguments. The amount was taxable for the year the check actually was received, not for the year the check had been tried to be delivered.
Some of the points were:
* the check was delayed, and you can’t expect people to be home and wait for a check for several weeks, when they don’t have a clear agreement for when the check will arrive.
* a check waiting in the post office is not within the person’s reach, you’ll have to have the check in hand before it becomes taxable
And Zeek’s backoffice will fail the test even more. The amount displayed in the backoffice is not within your reach, and this has also become painfully clear in all the payment problems they have had.
And if it fails the test, you shouldn’t be using it as a tax method. You shouldn’t be using the method for deductions either.
Wait, if you receive matching bonus and commission from downline, that is not deductible? Even if you choose to buy more bids with your commission and matching bonus?
Withdraw the commission as cash:
Taxable income, and there’s little doubt about that.
Reinvesting the commission, buying sample bids:
Lots of doubts whether it becomes taxable or not. But if the commission is taxable then the reinvestment should probably be deductible.
Having an investment scheme attached to an MLM business opportunity makes it become more difficult to identify and understand the tax rules you’ll have to use. And hiring Howard Kaplan didn’t make it much clearer.
@hi bye
I have collected some of the tax discussion in another thread, where you also can find the viewpoints from an accountant.
The discussion in that thread is closer to a conclusion than the other discussions we have had. Dan Matthews is focusing on the principles in accounting, like when and where something becomes taxable and the differences between investments and income.
I’ve outlined what I believe to the FUNDAMENTAL problem with the entire niche of MLM + Penny Auction in my little editorial, which I also left as comment on MLMHelpdesk.
Feel free to critique it here or there.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/07/what-is-wrong-with-mlm-penny-auction.html
AH – I see the difference.
You are talking about taking the money OUT of your current zeek. I was operating from the assumption that your method was having a family member etc purchase bids from money that never came from zeek (also from the assumption that zeek rewards is not most people’s primary source of income!)..
if you get 20% AND matching points, you will get the 20% but also your RPP will go up daily because you have more points (this is what makes it different than a regular affiliate program, where you would just get the 20% and nothing else).
In any case, they are the ones who designed it this way and I can’t imagine the affiliate would be at fault even if ‘somehow’ it could be proven that this took place.
M norway
Can u provide me with the link so I can read up on the tax stuff and accountant
@hi bye
Click on the username (M_Norway) in the quote in my previous comment.
It leads to the last post in the “Zeek Rewards confirms $100,000 in fraud occurring” article. And from there it will lead to 4 comments from Dan Matthews, using the same “click on the username” technique.
@EM – The entire business model is flawed because even if you didn’t receive the matching VIP points and “worked the system,” some other affiliate is indeed receiving those matching VIP points.
In other words, Zeek incurs VIP point liability no matter what. This makes it an obvious Ponzi. Zeek could disguise the Ponzi better if it did not provide matching VIP points for retail penny auction purchases, but then they would have almost zero retail revenue.
Of course, Zeek could just discredit all the critics if they just revealed their revenue ratios, assuming the ratios didn’t confirm the Ponzi.
As per Paul Burks though, that information is sadly ‘proprietary‘.
Propretery in the sense that should it be made public, the writing would be on the wall and nobody would continue to invest in Zeek Rewards.
If tim pays bob so bob can buy bids with tims money, tim gets matching vip points back with a 90 day ROI, + 20% commission, so how is zeek getting an 80% cut?
I guess collusion might of been a better term than laundering which although is legally exploiting a loophole, they will likely come under scrutiny by the IRS.
Any legitimate business would not allow this because it is, in the end, loss making.
How would you say ‘it’s on them?’ Apparently zeekler was set up for REAL customers not for affilates to to secretly pay off family members so that they can get matching VIP points with 90 day ROI. I would say it’s on the both of you, both company and ZR.
@Gabe – How is it the affiliate’s fault? Even if Bob purchased retail bids without Tim as his referrer, Zeek still incurs matching VIP point liability. There are only a few rare cases where a retail penny auction bid purchase does not result in some affiliate, somewhere (so if not Tim, then someone else), gets compensated with matching VIP points.
The entire business model generates no positive revenue!
Ah yes, but no 20% commission
Yes but no 20% commission would be incurred right? You’re basically making dead business even worse by inventing fake customers for the 20%.
What do you make of it that Black Diamonds from Monavie are supposedly leaving Monavie for Zeek Rewards?
I make that without clarification and specifics, it’s not worth discussing.
They created their compensation system, and it doesn’t sound like they even specify things like this being “OK” or not.
The thing to me is that, if Bob finds $500 on the ground and puts it into Tim’s Zeek because tim did it the “right” way and encouraged bob to check out this cool new penny auction — it’s *exactly* the same result for tim w/ the points etc.
It’s *exactly* the same amount of money both IN and OUT of zeek rewards whatever the intention is or how Bob gets his $500 and buys bids via from Tim. I guess the only difference would be if Tim is cashing out of his own to give to other people..
Now note i’m not talking about the context of whether this is ultra-ethical or cool, just posing ideas etc. from the standpoint of the question of isn’t this “on” the affiliate from a liability standpoint.
Why comment on rumors? It’s just that, rumors.
You don’t even need fake customers.
I had a chance to look in someone else’s back office and apparently your upline gets 20% of any DAILY REPURCHASE you make as well.
Or to give you a more concrete example.
You have 1000 points.
Daily 1.5% profit share.
So your daily share is $15.
80% repurchase means you get 12, giveaway gives you 12 points
So your new point total is 1012
Your cash pool is now $3
AND your upline gets $2.4 cash in commission. (20% of 12)
Where is the money coming from? Hmmm? Who’s REALLY buying the bids?
What do you mean you don’t need fake customers? How is your new point going to be 1012 if you don’t have customer to giveaway?
If you do not have customer then your point will remain 1000 and your bid advance will increase – I believed – but your points will remain the same.
Do you really need to designate daily where your repurchased bids go? Jimmy?? Help? 🙂
The 20% only applies to retail penny auction sales (i.e. “customers”) and the monthly subscription sales (i.e. PRC customers or affiliate premium memberships – $10/silver, $50/gold, $99/diamond).
For the daily repurchase, you get 10% for those on your first level and 5% on your second level. The reason this appeals to the big “MLM leaders” is that they bring in their downline and they get the matching 10%.
So you could only buy in only $10 as your “initial investment” but if you can recruit say (10) people to each put in say average of $5k, you get 10% commission on each of their initial investment (10 x $5 x 0.10 = $5k in commissions). You use that $5k in commission to buy VIP points that earn ROI for 90-days.
Now, in addition to the $5k in commissions you have which earn ROI, you also get 10% commissions on your (10) direct referrals. Say they have $50k in total initial purchase and they are all compounding at 100%. The first day at 1.5% they earned $750 total, and your 10% on that is $75. So you also earn $75 on your 5k points.
So your daily earnings is $150 ($75 off your 5k points + 10% commission on your level 1). This compounds over time.
You also earn 5% commission on your level 2, so any of your referrals who recruit others. And of course there is an upwards cascading effect as the downline grows.
The longer everyone compounds at 100% or 80/20% the more you at the top of the pyramid earn (and if of course your upline gets commission from you).
The above is why so many MLM’ers are interested because they are not familiar with the dangers of a Ponzi so it looks like “easy for the average 97% who always fail at network marketing to earn”. Then you add in the ability for those who recruit successfully to earn even more, the “MLM leaders” are eager to jump in.
The reason many of us have said Troy Dooly is doing a huge disservice to the MLM industry is once Zeek goes bust and its revelated that it is a big Ponzi, those 97% who someone were miraculously successful with Zeek, but would otherwise fail with other MLM’s, will be so jaded from the MLM industry they won’t participate again.
The “leaders” who brought people in will get burned. Some will stick around because “they made their money” and will brush off the negative stigma of promoting a Ponzi, but many who lost money and credibility will be furious.
You have a choice. You can either direct where your daily bids go (which customers to give free bids to), or you let the system do it automatically for you. You can give away 1000 bids per customer. Most affiliates buy or create a batch of fake customers.
Say you bought in for $5k as your initial investment. On day 1, 1.5% is only $75, so that’s only 75 bids to give away. Your first customer will last you about 12 days before you need another. People will go and buy a batch of 10 or 20 customers from one of the third party customer sites, or just drive around to different wifi hot spots and create 3 fake customers per hot spot (max 3 per IP).
It can get quite annoying when you drive down to your local coffee shop or McDonalds and try to register a customer, when someone else already maxed out the 3 per IP. Note that Zeek claims you can log in to your backoffice and from there create more than the 3 per customer, but I’ve yet to get that to work succesfully.
Alternatively, if you have a large point balance, say 100k or more points, you’re going to need a lot of free customers. Your choice is to either spend a lot with the third party sites (Todd Disner owns one of them and I think they have a few replicated sites) and get customers for a fee (what the 5cc used to do when you bought them from Zeek), or you can go ahead and find 2 PRC customers.
If you have 2 PRC customers, you then quality for “unlimited free customers” from Zeek corporate rotator. In effect, instead of buying customers at a price of $1 per customer using the 5cc that you used to do before March, now you have to recruit 2 PRC customers (or make up 2 fake ones and just pay the monthly fee).
An affiliate with a really large point balance will prefer to find 2 PRC customers and get unlimited free customers from the company rotator.
And yes, the customers from the company rotator have the (Christian name) + (3 digits) for a user name, clearly just fake customers created from some mailing list.
There is one other way and least expensive to get customers but I won’t reveal it yet until zeek die for several reason which I am not going to state
Did you know that you can go beyond the ip limit but the customer will get an email saying something like we detected several ip and you can no longer sign up but the afdilaye still list that customer as his
Just bad software and programming
Secret info for only the top ponzi players huh?
So how much do I have to personally invest before the boys at the top let me in on the game?
I’m not in the game. I just know a lot of people and in fact I wouldn’t say they are that high but it’s kind of obvious
You would be surprise and I bet you guys prob surf something similar before but also may be dangerous for affilates because they did mention it in their news vaguely. I just don’t want this technique to be abused And better keep it on the low.
I was surprise this person spit it out as it was nothing.
Lol reading what I wrote there is another way which you prob would think but it’s not what you are thinking
IP reputation has never stopped an affiliate from cheating. There are thousands of proxies you can use, PPV capture, and all kinds of ways to use mturk to get free customer accounts.
The big affiliates don’t even bother, they create 2 PRC’s and get unlimited free customers. Only the affiliates in the 10k to 50k range play the fake free vs pay third party site game.
Above 50k points your daily profit share averages $750/day so you just get the 2 PRC’s. In the end, it costs less than what the 5cc used tocharge.
Yes I’m wondering why they cap it at $10,000USD entry level? They say to block people wanting to put in a $million + – but if the system is ‘fool proof’ and the mathematics is correct why should the amount matter?
Exactly. Artificially limiting the max contribution is a standard Ponzi ploy to compartmentalize the influence/damage/impact of a single investor.
If this business model was ‘fool proof’ they could simply get a loan or VC funding and save the tens of millions in profit share expense.
There are so many otherwise smart business people believing the BS that (1) the penny auction generates revenue, and (2) that free spammy classified ads actual draws any clicks.
If you think this through multiple levels like a Chess player, consider that even if the free spammy classified ads had fantastic click through rates, the conversion rate for Zeekler would still be abysmal and there still wouldn’t be enough revenue to justify the daily profit share.
It’s virtually all affiliate money being ‘recycled’. P O N Z I !
As much as I value this blog to help me maintain a balanced perspective, aren’t many of the comments here based on rumors and speculation? 🙂
Not rumors: Rob Alwin and Mick Karshner are two examples of Black Diamonds who left MonaVie and are now promoting Zeek.
Yes I’m wondering why they cap it at $10,000USD entry level? They say to block people wanting to put in a $million + – but if the system is ‘fool proof’ and the mathematics is correct why should the amount matter?
I would think one reason is when this ponzi goes down the most you can recover will be your initial investment if that. How many attorneys are going fight in court over a 10k investment.
That would depend on the perspective. The only thing “XYZ joins A” proves is what XYZ thinks about A. Not anybody else. Unless you think exactly like XYZ, or trusts XYZ implicitly and would follow them to end of the Earth, is that really useful info?
And so did a dozen or more people who left the Ponzi Ad Surf Daily (joined Zeek). What exactly *does* that prove? Nothing other than they consider Zeek attractive.
I don’t consider that to be a problem. In a balanced audience, people will usually correct each other and create some balance between viewpoints.
It would have been worse if each and everyone had followed the same leader or a upline.
Next question? 🙂
Because they are afraid that like Ad Surf Daily, they’ll be seen as an investment.
Quoting from the indictment of Ad Surf Daily:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/dc/programs/vw/pdf/adsurfdaily_Bowdoin_Indictment_FILED_Nov_23_2010.pdf
Jump to paragraph 23. This is OFFICIAL Federal Court indictment.
I am a MonaVie distributor. Karshner’s got caught promoting Zeek on the sly and they were secretly cross-line recruiting…I know, they went after one of my people.
I still like Karshner’s and Alwin’s, they’re good people, they just don’t know what they’re doing. They weren’t networkers before the got in MonaVie and the don’t understand how a Ponzi works.
It’s sad because come August, I don’t believe Zeek will be around.
@jimmy
I couldn’t agree more Jimmy! Well said.
^^ Thanks, and some misspelling in my quote due to auto-correction on my phone. 🙂
Many others over at realscam.com have the same opinion it looks like.
I just watched a video that stated zeek had 320,000 ppl visit zeekler the past month and 43,000 of them became retail customers. That’s a 13% conversion rate. How can you state the auction site isn’t making money?
There traffic flow is about to pass quibids which means zeekler will soon become the #1 penny auction site which has been the goal from the start.
Hi All,
I am looking for some advice. One of my family members wants me to join Zeekrewards but I am really unsure if I want to spend my time and energy on this.
First of all, I don’t have a lot of funds (silver level would be the one I could afford), I can’t/want (sorry) to recruit people and I am a grad student with not much time from fall to summer (although I have more time right now).
I am also concerned about the long-term viability, and legitimacy of the system.
I have been researching Zeekrewards for weeks now and my issue is that it is really difficult to find unbiased reviews. (Most people who write a review are part of the system so I can’t call those unbiased.)
Can anyone help me to make a decision? Oh I also forgot to say that if I don’t join that particular member of my family will really be mad at me and later she may even blame me later for her being unsuccessful with ZR.
If I don’t join I need REALLY GOOD argument why I don’t join.
@schmidty
Because none of those customers spent any outside money, they just had free bids dumped onto them and/or were created by affiliates for matching VIP bonuses and retail commissions.
At the end of the day no matter how many retail customers they have it really doesn’t matter. Each bid purchased by a retail customer has a >100% liability on the cost of bids purchased (through the 90 day ROI) so ultimately present a loss for Zeek Rewards.
@Zee
Ask them where the money comes from:
‘we advertise and attract bajillions of retail customers to the penny auction site‘.
Then ask them how many retail customers they have that they didn’t create themselves, aren’t related to and have spent actual money on bids beyond an initial test purchase:
*awkward silence*
The problem here is what exactly is the DEFINITION of “retail customers”?
Does that mean they signed up to receive free bids (paid for by affiliates), or does that actually mean they plucked down their own money to buy some retail bids?
When you evaluate a business opportunity, you have to look past the spin, and get at the raw numbers / definitions. In this case, there is no raw numbers or definitions to be had, so you have to discount the number is mostly insignificant.
And did Zeek ever mention how many affiliates they have? Well over 100000 by now, I believe. With 100K affiliates, and they’re ONLY signing up 43K customers a month, and who knows how many of them are repeat customers?
Add to that the fact that salespeople are REQUIRED to buy products (under the guise of “giveaway bids as promotion”) and you have a HUGE suspicion of “PONZI SCHEME” hanging over Zeek.
I wrote a review of Zeek and I’m attracting some VERY hostile responses from Zeek supporters.
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Analyzing-ZeekRewards-is-it-a-legal-and-viable-business-and-can-it-provide-long-term-income-for-you
So it contains something they REALLY REALLY hate: negativity, they call it.
But I prove everything I show, and I raise MORE questions with the facts that Zeek have not yet answered.
So, please read it. I don’t sell you anything. I want you to have more information so you can decide for yourself.
Zee there’s an old saying, if it’s too good to be true, it probably is. Zeek has been running for over a year now, perhaps about 14 months. That is a long time for a ponzi to be running so anyone getting in now is at a higher risk if the thing collapses.
If zeek was a profitable business I would put my money in but I have concluded it isn’t, zeekler auction site has mostly customers who are the affiliates themselves (disguised as family members) and the money for the bids simply flows back to the affililates in the form of points, plus 20%. That’s a net loss, perhaps offset by the very FEW real customers, but I would say not nearly enough.
Like Warren Buffet says, if you can’t understand the business and it’s confusing, run a mile. They have started to have problems with people withdrawing cash, on last check 900 people on the forum had posted complaints, and that’s only the ones that have access to the forum.
You’re much better off to get a real job, or invest in something that actually sells something REAL with REAL customers, lower risk. If you do decide to “have a bet” on ZR, only put in as much as you’re willing to lose. That’s my 2 cents..
I don’t recommend joining at this point since you said you can only afford silver and knowing that you will only “invest” a little unless you recruit
If you do happen to invest you are going to have a tax season headache if these guys say about taxes are true
Also zee
What I do not understand is how would that familyemer bead at you and ble her misfortune on you and why only you don’t she have other family member
OMG, Dorothy says follow the yellow brick road, Follow the yellow brick road because, because, because because, because of the wonderful thing Zeek does.
Are you kidding me. click your heals three times and say there’s no place like Zeek. And I will Make you rich if you only place a one spam ad a day. Really I promise.
I read that. They speak more like scientologists or the NC militia members than rational business people.
Is there a way I can listen to today zeek call via phone and without having to log in to a zeek account
It’s usually made available even if they’ve stopped posting it in the back office.
They can only hold 1200 people on the call but claim hundreds of thousands of affiliates, so they have to record the call.
Is there a call that can be downloaded onto my phone or is it for members only
Also I have some concerns and asked some question to you since I just found out your an affiliate jimmy its in the 100k fraud topic please respond
Ok here’s the deal after investing 10k back a while ago it was all lookiing good. I knew what I was in from the beginning. Place an ad get 1.5% daily on my money. Nobody and I mean nobody in any business will give you that return on your money for placing an ad a day.
Bingo Ponzi, but I did tell friends and said there’s a limited time to benefit on this deal. Well so far we all have. But that doesn’t make me feel better about new people joining for the fact that I will profit and they may lose everthing.
So far for my 10k investment I have pulled out over 40k in profit and then some. The problem is the 70k in vip point that I will be taxed on. At this point I am slamming the money out of my account. If I am going to pay taxes on vip point I rather have the cash in my bank.
Knowing what I know now I would not have the heart to bring in a family, friend or anyone that has value in my life. All though if you if your a MLMER that has no clue on what’s going on I will gladly sign you up under me. LOL
Ne14
No you will not be taxed on 70k – assuming that is your total VIP
You said you pull out 40k so you profit 30k
You can deduct you initial 10k and deduct the remaining 30k – asumining 70k is your total VIP – totaling to 40k
So you pay 30k in tax only but that would fall below and you have a high expense and if people here are correct about audits then u are in danger of an audit unless OFC u pay what you didn’t put in ur pocket
Curious did you recruit 10k compounding sure is fast
Hi bye
Very little recuriting from my upline only. I think he was doing for his benefit only. And the 10% he was making on my 10k investment.
After that he didn’t give a crap about me and was worried about his own pocket. I found out he only invested 2k himself. Then After that he convinced good friend of mine to give him 5k to bring them diamond customer. And never gave them one.
Didn’t you Kevin Sni you (Ozedit: let’s keep it clean). He’s lucky I didn’t finish writing the rest of his name.
That how most affilate are. They drag you in, help you for a couple weeks and then bye. Very few will help you later on – that applys anywhere in the world for most.
Sorry about that Oz will try to keep control from now on.I got a little emotional about good friend losing thousand of dollar from that not so nice man.
From that act alone, you can tell that he isn’t the big dogs or have much experience, if he had any experience he should be helping you for his benefit in the future – if he plans to do any future recruitment.
Look at where the monetary transaction happens?
– Selling bids generates revenue.
– Spending bids doesn’t generate much revenue. Spending 100 bids in an auction will raise the price of an item with $1.00 (not more than that).
So ZEEKLER isn’t very profitable. Most of the money comes in through ZeekRewards, when newly recruited affiliates makes their initial purchase / “investment”.
June was a special month, where affiliates had to sign up 2 PRC customers each before July 1st, in order to get free customers from Zeek (to dump sample bids onto). It means they either recruited customers or paid someone to act as customers for them, usually family members or friends.
So alot of new “customers” signed up in June, most of them were probably family members acting as real customers. PRC means “Preferred Retail Customers”, customers who pay a monthly membership fee (Silver, Gold or Diamond).
Sign up as a PRC customer?
Each affiliate will need to have 2 PRC customers each after some time. Most affiliates will usually have to pay family members or friends to act as customers for them.
PRC = “Preferred Retail Customers”, customers who are members and pay a monthly membership fee (Silver $10, Gold $50, Diamond $100), and receives VIP bids in return.
It will cost you $10 per month for 2 or 3 months before it all collapses. In return you will get some bids, plus lots of experience and insight.
As an excuse for not signing up as an affiliate:
“I’m not THAT happy doing recruiting. Besides, we will probably try to recruit from the same group of people, both of us.”
I’m pretty sure Zeek won’t last to the end of the year. If they do last longer, they will have escalating problems that will get worse for each month. Your family member will feel much more successful if he/she hasn’t recruited you, 3 months from now.
On this website you will find both sides. There’s lots of affiliates making comments here, even affiliates close to the top.
And then you have affiliates who have started to withdraw money long time ago, but they’re still in with some “risk capital”.
And then you have some “regulars” who are not connected to Zeek nor any other company. They will usually have a critical viewpoint, trying to detect problems in a concept and analyse them.
The viewpoint here is initially aimed towards people looking into a company, whether they want to join something or avoid it. So for each company reviewed it will usually start with the facts (ownership, products, compensation plan, etc.). Any follow up stories can be in any direction the story leads.
For Zeek, there’s over 20 articles here with over 3,000 comments. Of course you can’t read them all, but clicking on the company name (top of article, or menus to the right) can give you an overview.
For Zeek, you will find more positive reviews on Troy Dooly’s website, MlmHelpDesk.com. We have a link to it in the bottom of the menus to the right (top of page, scroll a few pages down).
The original introduction of ZeekRewards can be found on MoneyMakerGroup.com, a forum thread more than 300 pages long.
You don’t pay taxes on the VIP balance. It’s only used to calculate your share of the daily profit pool, higher balance = higher payouts, but it’s NOT cash (not taxable).
But all the reward points paid to your backoffice was taxable for the year 2011, according to the tax method used by Zeek. We have had several discussions about this issue, but few conclusions so far.
Some people got shock when they received a 1099-MISC tax form from Zeek in January/February 2012, for the income year 2011. The tax advices from Howard Kaplan wasn’t easy to understand, either.
The best advice was the general “keep a track of your own income, expenses and other related activity each day” (do your own accounting). Another advice was “Make sure you understand your own business, so you can explain it for a tax advisor or accountant”.
Here are some related stuff:
http://zeekrewardsnews.com/2012/02/questions-answers-call-schedule-this-week/
Here comes a REALLY troubling question, and why so many credit card transactions are blocked… This has nothing to do with Zeek directly, but may explain how much trouble it had with credit cards before (and may continue to)
I am NOT saying that Zeek had opened up dozens of companies to process affiliate’s CC through, but think about it… We’ve seen 3-4 different companies AND at least as many credit card merchant account processors mentioned with Zeek already (probably 6 of the latter, I’d say).
Did Zeek found some folks to change the transaction codes just like Full Tilt did?
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2012/07/03/raymond-bitar-full-tilt-poker-ceo-arrested-gambling-site-linked-to-three-u-s-banks-that-failed-feds-say-the-on-line-casino-become-an-internet-ponzi-scheme-top-fbi-official-says/
Explain to them that the whole thing looks like a Ponzi scheme. Point out the hundreds of affiliates who are having trouble getting paid right now. Point out that Zeek moved their banking and won’t release the name of their bank, and are probably banking offshore now.
Ask them why they think any company would ever pay out thousands of dollars to someone just for placing one internet ad a day, when they could hire IT staff to do the same job far cheaper?
Tell them that it looks way too good to be true, and when that happens it probably is.
I forgot to say that this is emotional blackmail, and you shouldn’t let yourself be subject to it.
You can tell her that you’re simply not interested, and if she is unsuccessful with ZR it’s because of ZR or her own actions, not yours.
I predicted earlier that zeek would bomb in August The volume of complaints has not been paid and the tone more and more bitter, I think by the end of July is more likely now.
Very insightful site. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I’m thinking about joining ZeekRewards and have a quick question. I will keep it simple. If I “invest” $10k and withdraw $15k total from Zeek, how much would I take home after taxes?
Thanks.
And notice they are having problems now processing penny auction bids and monthly memberships. Before, they were blocked by credit card companies for compounding bid purchases and stopped that in Dec.
It’s amazing how the new affiliates are willing to send bankwires $10k to eWallet companies based outside the US at a drop of a hat.
The “brilliance” here was to go after the MLM crowd who are newbies to the Ponzi world. They follow their upline/leaders to the ends of the earth, and enticement and check flashing always work (both of which are now illegal according to Zeek compliance, but it’s done in private all the time).
I received an email from payza 10 days after requesting my bank transfer stating that ” for reasons X and Y ww cannot do bank transfers at this moment, please request a check, we will waive the 4.00 dollar fee”, this money was originally deposited by zeekeler…
WTF is going on around here…I have over 8k dollars in PAYZA account just sitting there! does anyone else have the same problem with they payment proccesors?? input from other affiliates will be greatly appreciated!
I think Al’s right… this crap wont last long, I just want my f-ing money.
You join a business for the business, NOT for the relationship. If your relative can’t see that, and is using that to make you join, then just for that, s/he’s doomed to failure, as s/he won’t be able to get ANYBODY that’s NOT FRIENDS AND FAMILY to join.
Furthermore, this only points to the way Zeek was explained to her being the main problem. If all you need to do in Zeek is post ads, then she should be raking it in, and give you the money. WHY WOULD SHE NEED YOU TO JOIN?
Clearly, she’s been told that she’d be rich if she also make you and anybody else she can join as well. Posting of ads and such is completely secondary.
Of course. Affiliates placing ads every day doesn’t keep the ponzi going. Recruiting new investors does.
It all depends on if they get all their payment problems sorted out. Nothing will cause a ponzi to collapse faster than rumors among investors of no more payments being made. I think though, that Zeek will string affiliates along as long as possible while they try to come up with ways to pay off affiliates or get more investors.
And the thing is that as long as people have money tied up in Zeek, while they may be PO’ed that they’re not getting money out right now, they’ll still stand by Zeek as a good company until they finally realize they’re not getting anything back.
It’s like as long as Zeek has their money they still want to believe the official line of “growing pains” or whatever they’re feeding affiliates.
I don’t know that I’d wager on Zeek collapsing by the end of August, but it definitely won’t be around by January. A year from now it will probably be just a distant memory, a court case, or a prime example of a ponzi MLM scheme, much the same way we talk about Ad Surf Daily these days.
Let’s just say that Dawn’s awful burger analogy may have helped things along a bit, greased the lanes, if you will.
Zeek will be offering ACH services. This should be a quicker way to manage your money vs. the e-wallets.
I am at a couple e wallet forums that zeek uses and it seems like people from other country mostly in Asia have trouble verifying their e wallet for not having proper requirements
I am assuming the downline are using their upline e wallet to withdraw money
Is this allow in zeek? Using the same e wallet for multiple affiliates
What is ACH service
Initial investment are always deductible so you would only pay 5k in tax – assuming you will be able to take the 15k back and nothing else
@Kevin_L
There’s too many variables to consider to get an accurate answer on this.
How you set up your taxes, whether or not the daily percentage return average stays the same, whether the company exists as it does today in a year (management have hinted it wont), whether new members are still joining and investing in a year etc.
Kevin
My answer was More if the plan goes in that direction but oz is right its hard to say
Oz
They did give a hint but it doesn’t mean what dawn meant was actual because if she can’t even explain how e wallet works then what makes you think she even understand anything else
So that hint is not good enough for me
Looks like there weren’t any call yesterday because of their day off
Does anyone know when is the next call, things are getting interesting
To me, IMHO, it seems like it’s actually Zeek’s strategy to ‘accidentally on purpose’ keep having transaction problems in order to keep withdrawals slowed simply to keep it’s head above water.
The strategy is to keep changing payment providers who each have their own long delays so that their is never a stable environment for payments to be withdrawn, only drip fed out if you will, until another new member comes along and puts a few coins in.
There was a boring call. It was Daryl Douglas giving his usual speech on how he met Paul Burks and his version of the history of Zeek. Dawn wasn’t on the call.
K Chang
Oh okay good I don’t wanna listen then I wanna listen about zeek
Gabe
That what I think too but there are also many people who can’t cash into zeek
The system shows error
A Zeek affiliate had a funny response in one of the topics on missing payments that are yet unresolved:
Even die hard Zeek supporters have to chuckle at that one!
Lol I need to see the comments on this one
Is this on the zeek forum
@Jimmy. Wow! Next they’ll be having their own public holidays.
I just gave my mum a big spiel of how this will crash soon I think it’s too late to save her from the reality of it all lol.
Her “positivity mentor”(referrer) keeps feeding her bs about just how fine and dandy zeek is and how I’m “just being negative.” She would be better off asking zeek to replace their fancy adsense with web advertising for my mums hair salon.
Zeek Quote of the Day!
Translation: We know it’s ponzi and it will crash and burn so throw away all logic and get your money in while you still can.
Have a great Zeekend!
Same with mine. I’m trying to understand whether she’s out of her mind or if she really believes that hogwash. It’s a bit disillusioning.
It does seem odd that they were closed for Canada Day (yesterday) but are open for (U.S.) Independence Day, though that’s among the least of my many concerns.
If they do plan to cash out, they would have to take weeks and weeks just to receive the funds. All payment are WAY past due!!! Good Luck.
X-cellent find Jimmy. Too funny.
That guy is catching on.
@Hi Bye well according to my mum king midas over at zeek is going to turn her 500 into millions in a couple of years that might be true if you can cram 2 years worth of growth into 2 months.
@Al I know I hope your mum has got the seed money back I think this is hilarious she thinks I’m crazy!
I’m just waiting for the “I told you so” moment.
@Dion — I think you can let her read this article… if you can get her to read ANYTHING:
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Danger-of-Seeking-Positivity-and-Ignoring-Negativity
It would be funny if she tells you “I told you so”
Lol she prob thinking that in her head
@Hi bye
from what I understand it’s much easier to put money in, than to get money out.
Yes that’s true but right now new members are having hard time getting money in due to e wallet issue and the merchant
Bad Paul and Dawn whatcha gona do whatca gona do when they come for you. Bad Pual and Dawn where ya gona be I here Ecuador is a great place to flee.
What is the problem with more people being hacked? There are more and more people everyday on the forum being hack? What is up
Why was it at the latest red carpet event were mostly Asians and Old people? There were very few middle age people there.
Oz you should attend a red carpet event and do a report.
Understand that two pieces of information are needed to login to an account and one of them is displayed on every affiliate page. That means you only have to guess the other one.
I think the vast majority of “Help I was hacked and can’t login to my account” complaints are actually the product of failed hacking attempts.
I don’t know how many failed login attempts it takes before the system locks an account down but it looks very much like the system locks those accounts down until they are reactivated by the IT team.
That’s stupid programing. On the fourth failed login attempt they should lock the account for a period of time long enough to frustrate any dictionary type password cracking attempts but this could be as little as 15, 20 minutes.
Then if the failed login attempts continue, then lock the account until the actual owner contacts ZR with authenticating information, but even that could be automated.
I’m not a programer, neither is my nephew but he intends to be one some day. Even he can see how many technical mistakes ZR is making but for some reason ZR can’t. You want to know what scares me?
It looks like ZR is trying to set up ACH fund transfers. Think about their overall state of data security and then Google “ACH Fraud.” More than one Russian hacker is waiting in rapt anticipation for all the routing numbers and codes that ZR may well be preparing to make available to them.
There is no auto-lockout.
Almost all problems are due to weak password. The reason there is lots of activity on the support forum about it is because Zeek’s programmers obviously are not up to date on standard security best practices, including sending notification when someone changes your password or email, allowing self-service password recovery using either a shared secret, PIN sent to SMS-enabled phone on record, or even something like last X digits of tax ID number.
Zeek doesn’t enforce strong passwords at account creation, nor sends a verification email.
When you request a lost password, it is sent in plain text.
Zeek is probably a prime target for major hacker breach as not only do they have poor coding practices and likely have many vulnerabilities that can be exploited, but they have a large native user base.
I’m surprised a hacker hasn’t launched a phishing or CSRF attack by sending a message to all affiliates using the “learn more” info box that will send an email directly to the affiliate.
Apart from getting lynched I’d find it hard to do an objective report direct from HQ. The company and affiliates know who I am and I imagine it’d be an extremely artificial and high-tension environment.
Part of the reason I don’t get involved directly with MLM companies is that it keeps me truly impartial. I also get a neutral perspective which I believe let’s me cover far more ground as I’m not in the thick of it, so to speak.
I will bow to your superior knoledge but the information I have indicating some form of “auto-lockout” comes from their support forum and it seems credible.
Times like this I wish I were the sort of person who would take the next empirical step and test the thesis but that would involve breaking at least one law.
I’m sure an amount of the problem is ZR not forcing users to employ strong passwords but that can’t be the only problem. I think we both share the desire to limit our comments on this issue to avoid informing would be malefactors of some of the vulnerabilities we are aware of, so I’ll just say this isn’t just user error. Not by a long shot.
If there was an auto lockout, it wouldn’t take much for a script kiddie to lockout thousands of accounts with a simple script….
Okay, I found the auto-lockout logic. Your are right. It’s really dumb.
After 15 failed login attempts, the system locks out that user-id for 60 minutes. After 60 minutes of no login attempts, the lock clears. This is to prevent brute force login attempts (you’d think they could do some source IP address correlation).
Here’s the catch – if you try to login even one time during the 60-min lockout period, the 60-min timer resets. So if someone’s account was locked out, they try to login 55 minutes later, it’s still locked out, clock resets for another 60 minutes.
The user can’t log into Get Satisfaction because it uses token authentication redirect from Zeek Rewards back office. So if you are locked out, you can’t get help from support, and you start to panic, and you keep trying your login and password every so often and you keep extending the 1-hour cycle.
I don’t think it is just weak passwords because on the forum there were two people who had really strong passwords and were still hack
Oz
I don’t see how they would know who you are. There no picture of you or you can go under cover and bring a mustache – the trick always work
Sometimes ambiguity is an asset. We’re trying to help ZR members here, not increase the problems that ZR’s incompetence is inflicting on them.
@Kschang Thanks I had a look very interesting.
Apparently I’m being negative by showing this “sour grapes speculation” so that was unsuccessful and rather hilarious.
Her friend (ex-workmate) who referred her seems to have an answer to all the questions being asked on this blog. So apparently we can all stop posting comments because we aren’t positive people and aren’t trusting in Zeek.
Yeah I know, I thought that was a brilliant answer certainly left me feeling like I had all the answers (Sarcasm). There’s no such thing as a debate with a species like that.
Shows over folks, a brainwashed affiliate answered all our questions with the age old one liner “Trust Zeek” might be time to feast on those sour grapes. (Intense Sarcasm)
Please Sir, don’t think I’m trying to bust your balls here. I appreciate and value your contributions here and elsewhere and respect you for them.
But either everyone reporting that they’ve been locked out of their ZR account on the Get Satisfaction forum (a significant number) either hasn’t been locked out of their accounts and the problem lies elsewhere, or the token authentication isn’t working.
I don’t know the technical merits of either argument but it’s beginning to look like Paul’s much vaunted programming skills are very bit as valid as his reason for banning the nation of Slovenia.
Get Satisfaction maintains a cookie on your browser if you click on an inner URL you don’t need to reauthenticate.
I haven’t actually tested the Zeek back office authentication redirect with a locked out account (don’t want to lock out my own and am not curious enough to create a fake account), but suspect that the problem could be first time login to Get Satisfaction vs. existing account.
Still, a 15 failed login lockout is really dumb. Don’t know who is running IT or security over there.
And for those who’s still on the fence about Zeek…
Read how Ad Surf Daily works, and think about how close it is to Zeek.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/07/scam-study-ad-surf-daily.html
Occam’s razor has a much simpler explanation than “growing pains”. It’s so blatantly an obvious Ponzi people look right past it.
From an affiliate on the support forum – haven’t we been asking these questions for 6 months?
Again, I really think that people don’t want to admit to themselves that they got involved in a scam when they still have money in it. I think that’s why they’ve tended to let Zeek issues slide until now when they’re having trouble paying people.
I really doubt Oz will make a trip to the US to go to a worthless meeting of middle aged used car salesmen (a.k.a. zeek management). Im pretty sure he lives in the land down under, hence the nickname Oz.
Could it be possible that the evil Dawn and her crew have already fled? Phone is off the hook, chat support is down, not a peep from zr news for almost a week. Seems the only person left is the one censoring negativity on fb.
What does the imminent collapse of a Ponzi look like in its early stages?
Not to mention you can’t log into the forum anymore
I doubt they’ve fled yet, since this is typical behavior for Zeek Rewards customer support. After they haven’t answered the phones, had chat support, or answered an email for several months, then I’ll start to get suspicious.
I don’t think the end is hear yet. All Ponzi schemes that end without external intervention (i.e. authorities shutting it down) go through a period where they change the terms.
For example, the Ponzi may change the cashout frequency to every other week or only once per month. They will offer attractive new ways to put moremoney in, like JPB/JSS offering $400/day for $20k premium investment.
They will offer bonuses and other incentives to keep money in longer such as “points that don’t get withdrawn for 120 days earn an additional 25% override”. This feeds into the gullible’s greed.
Zeek may have cash flow problems now with the eWallets, but I don’t think they are out of cash. They are still getting new recruits and can probably stick around for a while longer. Although it will be curious to see what their excuses are for payout delays once they introduce ACH. They can’t blame the eWallets at that point.
Thanks guys. I’m a bit relieved for now.
I wonder how many affiliates have set their repurchase to 0 (zero) in the past week? Zeek’s failures are rattling the less faithful and even some of the faithful.
Are they on holidays because of the 4th of July in USA? No doubt anyway- Dawns probably out shopping for luxury hand bags, hot cars and eating caviar while all the affiliates are at home worried and depressed, eating leftovers.
Not sure what’s going at in Zeekland other than the usual incompetence, lack of transparency, and no information to the field.
The Zeek support login redirect hasn’t been working for most all morning. I was wondering why my emails were so quiet (any time someone responds if you responded or followed a topic, you get an email update).
Apparently no one can seem to login… and some are falsely thinking they are getting “locked out” when it’s just Zeek’s redirect to Get Satfisfaction not working all day.
Also Zeek disabled the “update details” in the backoffice – probably to prevent “the hackers” from changing your password once they login as you. Of course, that prevents all affiliates form changing their own password, and it also prevents people from adding new eWallet withdrawal methods.
If you didn’t already specify your username for an eWallet, you can’t until Zeek re-enables the “update details” link in the backoffice.
Those who are legitimate victims of hackers (say they had a lame password) or are locked out of Zeek back office must be freaking out now considering they can’t call Zeek, can’t log to back office, can’t login to Get Satisfaction, and can’t open a trouble ticket (since you need to login), not to mention that tickets and emails go unanswered for months anyways so no one would even try that.
I suppose there’s Live Chat if you can wait in the queue long enough and do it during business hours.
i am glad i found this forum. My close friend have been convincing me to join ZEEK, a cleverly disguised PONZI. Thanks folks for the infos
Sporadic problems of web server error 500 when trying to sign up new affiliates and buying bids.
Yet the daily profit share keeps coming. That must be some magical proprietary profit share formula to withstand all of these issues and still pay out daily.
Nah, you’re just reading it wrong. That server 500 error message is really just a special Zeekler July 4th promotion.
Each time someone stumbles onto it Zeekler makes an extra $500 to share around.
I’ve also noticed the same issues, Jimmy. Plus the matrix view has also been temporarily disabled.
I happened to have two browsers open at the support forum. I’m still logged in with one, but you can’t get back in (for now) if you log out of the forum.
I posted a topic (“Users unable to log into forum?”) about three hours ago, yet no one from Zeek has responded to it.
There seem to have been a few posts in general since then, but I’m sure a LOT of people are unable to log-in judging by the unusually low level of activity.
Total speculation here, but I wonder if they disabled the ‘Update Personal Info’ feature while they make changes to the way passwords are handled. If that’s the case, maybe that’s why the token redirect to GetSatisfaction isn’t working. Again, pure speculation in the absence of any updates from Zeek.
Thank you ALL for being candid.
I have registered two free accounts with the intention of investing 5k into one account. Everyone around me (avid zr supporters) claim zr’s greatness and yet there is an akward tension when I question of prevalance such disparities in the zeekler/zeek rewards business models.
…additional thoughts or suggestions for the new comer? Thank you.
@madea — as suggested above, read how “Ad Surf Daily” works, and see how similar it is to Zeek.
http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/07/scam-study-ad-surf-daily.html
It’s Dan, Dawn’s step-son, that’s the head programmer.
@madea, Just say NO to Ponzi’s. You have a very good chance now of not getting any return.
I just took a look at ZR’s “Ad Ledger Validation List,” not recommended reading, it locked up my browser before the full page could load.
The interesting thing is the first few hundred ads checked (the only ones I could read) were ALL disqualified and most of them were the ZR sanctioned copy and paste ads from the back office and posted on recommended sites.
Well that’s one way to keep daily VIP points from compounding.
Who ever is mucking around with their software is making a pig’s dinner of it.
@GlimDropper Interesting, I’ve sometimes wondered how/if they verify, considering some of us post to FB pages that are set for maximum privacy.
Just received a reply at the forum. They are (now) aware of the issue, and apparently “maintenance work…resulted in a disconnection between the forum and affiliates [back office]”.
“It is being looked into” and everything “will be back to normal soon”. “Please pass the word to everyone whois unable to log-in.”
Questions to ponder when thinking about joining, or want to have a reality check if your are in:
What exactly does Zeek do with the money invested with them (say we believed it wasn’t a Ponzi), are they buying product for the auctions, improving software and hardware, investing in ways to make the auction more profitable, etc., (like a real business) or partying like a rock star?
If they are really wonderful people and want to share the penny auction wealth with everybody, why do they need an initial investment anyway, and why a monthly member fee?
Give us your money, we’ll give you a whole lot more back, MmmHmm. If it’s not a ponzi why do they need my money? Couldn’t I just get paid to place the ad?
Why would I get paid an exorbitant amount of money to place an ad? Couldn’t they pay the exorbitant amounts of money to plaster real ads people actually read all over the internet?
Why would I get MORE money everyday for the same work (placing the ad)
Why do the people who invest more money get paid more money for the same work?
Why do I get MORE money everyday, even though there are more and more members joining everyday. Shouldn’t the share become less as the penny auction pot isn’t getting any bigger?
If it’s not a Ponzi, wouldn’t there have to be a cap on the number of members?
Can I really understand the business model? Or is it so convoluted I can just be told I don’t understand, just believe, everybody else is doing great! I don’t know how it works, or care how it works, I just know I’m making money, join, join, join!
Have I ever been offered this kind of return from a legitimate operation? Banks, brokerage firms, stocks, bonds etc? Have I EVER heard of this kind of return lasting for any length of time?
The greatest business minds can’t offer or compare to this, and I think the bumbling Zeek squad finally came up with the magic bullet? Free money for all, well as long as you give us your money first. No, you don’t need to know what we do with your $, just trust in Zeek.
Also… why can’t you get a loan from a bank for $1M and then pay an outsourced contractor $1000/month to place classified ads all day long.
Then spend another $1000 to buy a bot to place the spammy classified ads. That would only cost a few thousand a month rather than $15,000 a day in ever-increasing daily profit share.
It’s still an open question. I should clarify something from my previous post. I was able to load and view several hundred results and they all did read “Disqualify” but I was only able to click about a dozen links before my browser crashed. Sorry if I was unclear.
But they do some level of checking, how comprehensive or how frequently is unknown.
Well, I ~think~ the problem is on the ZR site. I can login to my account but if I click on some of the back office links I return to my ZR capture page and have been logged out. The same screen you see when you try to login to the support forum.
But thank you for the update Tissa.
I hope this makes ZR realize how stupid the security setup for the support forum really is. If the ZR site goes down, people will have almost no way to read the support forum.
Which is really stupid but I guess they think that’s better than letting potential ZR affiliates see the problems current affiliates are having on a daily basis.
The site has been down all day and they didn’t even have a clue until you posted? They must have thought all the affiliates were suddenly satisfied that they weren’t getting paid for weeks of overdue payments.
Zeek should pass the word to everyone who is unable to log in. That IT department is a joke!
Zeek has not posted a single word about it at Zeek news.
Login to Get Satisfaction still not working. Must not be a priority for them. This way, affiliates can’t complain about not getting paid, missing VIP points, support tickets going unanswered for months.
Maybe the theory posited that the glitches are intentional as it provides air cover for the real problems isn’t such a bad theory after all, although I still believe employees are just incompetent rather than evil, with the exception of the business model itself.
Is STP that bad with checks? On the forum people are saying that checks via STP takes a month to arrive yet on the STP page it only takes 1-10 business day to arrive. STP business days are 7 days a week.
That would be admitting they have a problem.
STP processes your check withdrawal within 3 days usually. They use a third-party check payment company and they say the delay is there, not with STP. It takes 3-4 weeks to receive your check.
If the 1.5% you pay on the incoming payment from Zeek wasn’t bad enough. $40 bankwire fee. $30 TrustCard fee (one time).
So the third party company takes a long time to send it out. Not STP. Okay that sounds kind of stupid.
It’s a common practice to outsource check writing. That way you can pay it in the local currency and don’t need to establish banks in 220 countries.
There are many options for outsourced check writing, which is why many of us thought it was strange when Zeek said they couldn’t write checks anymore because they were growing too big. There are many companies that send out way more checks than Zeek does, and they do it on demand whereas Zeek has a 2 week waiting period.
Update (finally) from Paul posted at ZeekRewardsNews and the forum. Apparently some folks were double-payed via Payza on Monday and Tuesday which may account for others not being paid via Payza, while they work to reverse the over-payments.
I did see a couple of posts at the forum this week by people who said they were paid twice, and I just saw a post where someone said the double-payment was just reversed.
I also heard from someone who was not paid via Payza on Monday, but received payment today.
Jimmy
Payza don’t use a third party for checks right everyone seem happy with checks but it seems like check is disable ATM
Tissa
What if people already withdraw their payment from payza already can it be reversed
Also didn’t know you can reversed your payment
And then there were purportedly some that were Double Billed?!?!
Heres a funny (strange) thing, a friend of mine received a check in the amount of $1,980- on July 1st… Thought they stopped issuing checks?
From my personal viewpoint, I won’t recommend it.
But from your viewpoint, you will probably be more interested if we can provide you with some other kind of information?
You have joined as a free affiliate, with 2 accounts, where you plan to use one of them for a $5,000 investment?
It’s possible to follow a different plan:
1. Sign up as free affiliate. OK.
2. Upgrade to Silver.
3. Sign up a family member as a customer under yourself
4. Make only a low investment in sample bids.
5. Use the rest of the money to buy retail bids or VIP bids through the family member. This method will give you matching VIP points (1 point for each dollar spent on bids), and a 20% commission.
But I’m not a member of Zeek, so I’m not familiar with any “qualifying rules” for commissions and matching VIP points. So you will need someone else to check my description for possible errors. I have only REPEATED a method I have read about, without checking details.
The method isn’t recommended for affiliates from the US, because it can potentially create a tax problem.
Your original plan:
1. Upgrade to Silver, Gold or Diamond – $10, $50 or $99
2. Make an initial investment $5,000.
This will give you 5000 VIP points, and give your sponsor $500 in 10% commission, and give your sponsor’s sponsor $250 in 5% commission.
The alternative plan:
1. Upgrade to Silver (or Gold or Diamond)
2. Make an initial investment $100. You will get 100 VIP points, and your upline will earn $10 + $5 in commission.
3. Sign up a family member customer
4. Buy VIP bids or retail bids through the family member for $4,900. This will give you 4900 matching VIP points, and $980 in commission. You will also get some “real” bids to spend in auctions (through your family member).
The difference between the two plans:
1. Your upline will be “cheated” for $735 in commission.
2. You will earn $980 in commission (plus some bids)
Back to my own viewpoint:
The odds are heavily stacked against you here, if you want to make money on your investment. I would recommend you to delay a decision for 2 days or more, and use those days to get an overview from more than one perspective.
The odds against you are all the affiliates who have joined before you, with huge VIP point balances and downlines, who have already drained Zeek for money for a long period of time. And Zeek doesn’t have a huge pool of money, they need money from new investors to pay the old ones.
As I read these post I can’t believe what I keep reading.
Tissa/Dawn I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that zeekrewards put out such a report that payza paid affiliates twice. But for one moment I am going to believe that zeekrewards is that stupid to stoop that low to convince affiliates to believe such BullSHIIIITTTT.
Lets see this is how it went. Oh honey zeekrewards just paid us twice, your not going to believe this after a month of us waiting for our money to get paid. And after all the Ewallets we had to sign up to. and all the unanswered support tickets ect. Payza paid us twice so I am going to contact the zeek form that Tissa always get through to the first time and tell them they just made another mistake and paid me twice.
Tissa is that the same form where we are all asking where the hell is our money. Or is that the I have been paid twice form that gets you right in.
And M_Norway I like the fact that you explained to a new comer in such detail the out come of getting in now. My though on that. Mr. New comer please do not invest in zeekreward will, will, will not be here for you to collect you money back before it get slammed down I guarantee it.
This is not I think, This is not I though, This is not what might, This is what I know. THE END.
To analyze Zeek Rewards crack IT and business management execution you need to look no further than Hanlon’s razor. Zeek is a Ponzi but their recent woes are probably not the beginning of the end, but more a glimpse into the capability of the staff.
Think about all of the missing & late payments outbound, all of the missing VIP purchases inbound, constant web server errors when signing up accounts, errors with credit card processing, duplicate charges, and then now duplicate payments. It’s a classic cluster____ and you can’t accept “growing pains” as the reason forever.
It’s not any more difficult to program an eWallet callback whether you are processing one transaction or a thousand transactions. There are standard programming best practices on OLTP, transaction verification, exception handling, etc.
I like kschang’s insight here pointing out that the Nigerian email scams used bad spelling and grammar to weed out the intelligent. Zeek’s “growing pains” weed out the unfaithful and independent thinking, IT-savvy affiliate.
I am sure they didn’t do this intentionally – they are more 3 Stooges than Sherlock Holmes – but the insight fits.
It’s not my insight. 😉 Came from Microsoft.
If you want to be REALLY cynical, this is pretty standard indoctrination package right out of cult training manual.
Start out with the sweet things, pay lots of money, free offers, get your foot in the door
Once they paid in, make it as difficult as possible to get their money out
If they question you, incite other members to shout them down and/or tell them to leave
Tell those who are still here they have commitment, and everybody else doesn’t. They are the chosen ones, and they must always follow the leader, who is always right.
Repeat ad infinitum, and soon you’ll be left with a bunch of yesmen.
I think I got the Harlon’s Razor idea from RealScam.com forum.
thought this zeek company was to good to be true, was asked to join tonight, but thought id do some research….thank god I have read this information.. agreed to the above.
I hope that I can get all the $$ out. I am just in turmoil right now. I love this hub and I look for others. Behind mlm and this one are the only 2 that I have really gotten great info from. Are there any others?
I feel sorry for my upline. He tells us not to listen to any negative comments and he’s still trying to recruit. We belonged to the same church and after much research, I found that it really was a cult. Talked about Jesus and tithes but operated with similarities to a cult so now I feel like he’s caught up in this Zeek thing and all things are pointing to cultish practices.
Brain washing and all of the writing is on the wall when compared to other ponzi schemes. Someone did copy something that I actually posted in the Zeek Forum and they pasted it here on this hub. I am not one of the brainwashed ones, I see it! I just have to be careful what I say in the Zeek forum, if it ever comes back up, so that I will be able to get all of my cash out.
I don’t want my membership revoked because of something I said in the forum. I really don’t see them opening that forum back up because it was mostly just complaints about our money, bids, vip points, and not receiving payments or items for auctions.
This thing is sinking fast and I just hope that I can get all that I have coming to me! 🙁
@Observant
I do wish you luck in getting your money back, I’m afraid you might need it.
You touched on a very significant point. There are two ways Zeek can control what people are saying about them, the first is to not give people any legitimate grounds for complaint and the second is to censor complaints and ban the complainers.
Let’s see, the support forum is down, the Facebook page gets sanitized and the ZR news site only publishes “shiny happy people” posts. Hell, even the link to the “affiliates only” page of recorded confrence calls now has “Diamonds Only” in it’s URL. It’s almost like Zeek Rewards is receiving “transparency training” from North Korea.
As to worrying about being terminated for posting “negativity” about the program, they have the “right” to do so. From their policies and procedures page:
Kim Jong-Paul says nay to naysayers.
@Observant — your upline has fallen for the standard MLM “positive thinking” claptrap. He doesn’t realize that without “negativity”, you become reckless, as you have NOTHING to hold you back from doing stupid things.
Think about it. Pretend you’re walking alone, at night, on the plains of Africa (just bear with me here). There’s a russle in the grass ahead. Do you turn around and run with fear? Or just walk ahead with “positivity” believing nothing can hurt you?
Any prudent person would turn and run as fast as he could. There’s little cost to running. If there’s no monster, well, false positive, cost is little.
Yet those who believe in this “positivity” claptrap would tell you to IGNORE your instinct, your judgement, and your attempt to get more information, and call that ‘negativity’, and walk straight ahead.
And if there really is a monster ahead, well, you’re dinner.
I wrote a hub specifically on this issue
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Danger-of-Seeking-Positivity-and-Ignoring-Negativity
I would probably look for a tree to climb. Running could accelerate your demise.
Sorry for going off-topic.
That’s assuming there are trees around in the plains of Africa… Wait, I’m going off topic myself. 😀
The example is from Michael Shermer’s “Patterns of Self Deception”, a TED Talk
You ARE on the Behind MLM website now. 🙂
Other sites?
This will depend on what kind of information you’re looking for. Troy Dooly’s MlmHelpdesk.com has other information about Zeek, and other audience. PatrickPretty.com has some other factual stuff than we have. K.Chang has his own websites, with a little more indepth analysis than we have.
If your main focus is to get your money out and reduce the risk of loss, then a spreadsheet could be a useful planning tool to test different withdrawal plans. You will NOT be able to withdraw the VIP-balance 100% with a 100% withdrawal plan, because of all the retiring bids.
Don’t know Tissa if it would make a difference but I would assume so, if you contacted the e-wallet of choice prior to making a large deposit from an outside institution would you not be able to get approval, if as in your case it was an easily verifiable transaction for good cause?
@Tissa
There is a big difference between PayPal business-verified account vs. large merchants working with the eWallets. The large merchants have special access, fill out special bank transfer authorization, and in Zeek’s case, Paul Burks and the owners of the eWallets had meetings due to the expected size and impact of referring thousands of new accounts.
There are often deals negotiated on the backend including fee reduction based on amount of new business. My guess is your $50k did’t warrant a one-on-one with Meg Whitman. 🙂
With PayPal, there is no concept of an enterprise merchant account. PayPal’s Pro Business account is designed for the small-time merchant running a small business, i.e. think of all the eBay and etsy sellers. PayPal’s bank account verification is only to verify identification, not to approve for size and frequency of transactions.
Just saying you can’t really compare apples-to-apples here. In the eWallet industry, it is standard business to allow for the size of transactions Zeek is talking about. Zeek is spinning the truth here.
Look at it this way – there were no problems with the eWallets for weeks and then all of a sudden BOOM, multiple problems across multiple eWallets. I’m pretty sure Zeek didn’t grow that big in a single week that something that went smoothly all of a sudden didn’t.
They even processed the first 2 week’s clawbacks in the same week as a flawless payment. Surely they processed more payout transactions in that single week when they did the first clawbacks than any week after. So logical deduction tells us the problem is not the eWallets inability to handle Zeek’s volume.
Finally, let me ask, did AdSurfDaily have any problems with the eWallets? And this was a couple years ago on older API technology. If the eWallets could handle ASD, I guarantee you they can handle Zeek’s voume.
That post of mine was from June 27 (I read your reply back then).
I wasn’t:
The point I was trying to make is that no one here (myself included) has any firsthand experience dealing with e-wallets as a merchant of Zeek’s size. So all we can do is speculate, as I did in my post.
Hello K. Chang,
Your reality check could prove to be very helpful to readers of BehindMLM.
In the earliest days of the ASD case, I used the following simplified application of Occam’s Razor to analyze the strengths of some of the arguments advanced by ASD “defenders.”
________________________________________________________
Prior to going to bed, you peer out the window and notice two inches of snow in the yard. When you awaken, you again peer out the window and notice the snow is gone. Simplest explanation that accommodates all the facts? It warmed up overnight and the snow melted.
It’s also possible to conclude that an alien space craft started spinning furiously over the yard and blew all the snow away — an explanation, but not the simplest one that accommodates all the facts.
________________________________________________________
One of the saddest things about the ASD case was that any number of people effectively chose to believe that the alien spacecraft had blown away the snow. It was too hard for many of them to believe the simplest explanation that accommodated all the facts: that ASD was a Ponzi scheme.
Another common-sense application that often applies in Ponzi cases is the stages of grief — from denial to acceptance over time.
There have been any number of cases in which Ponzi victims effectively became zealots for the person who drafted them into the Ponzi because accepting the proposition they’d been scammed was just too painful to contemplate.
In the Dennis Bolze case in Tennessee, Bolze had victims believing he could get their money back if only the judge would permit him computer access so he could resume his scheme.
The judge in the Bolze case applied a two-level vulnerable victim’s sentencing enhancement (senior citizens) that effectively increased Bolze’s sentence from 21 years to 27 years. Bolze argued all of these things during the case:
* That victims used only “discretionary money.” (AKA committing to a disclaimer as a cover story until the bitter end and/or believing that a disclaimer is bulletproof because it may contain language along the lines of “use only money you could live with losing” or “don’t invest more than you can afford to lose.”)
* That age alone was not sufficient to justify the enhancement “and that the present poor financial condition of his victims is not relevant to whether they were unusually vulnerable at the time they invested their money with him.” (AKA blaming the victims.)
* That he did not “force[] anyone to invest” and that “he did not know” certain investors “because his associate dealt with them.” (AKA: Blaming the victims + blaming one or more rogue pitchmen.)
These arguments are more or less the same tortured constructions advanced by serial purveyors of online fraud schemes on the Ponzi boards. The sentencing judge said nonsense, and so did the Court of Appeals.
In the 3 Hebrew Boys case in Tennessee, the victims staged an antigovernment protest — something that also effectively happened in the ASD case.
The Botfly LLC case in Florida also was marked by antigovernment invective.
By making the government the bogeyman, Botfly’s David Lewalski hoped victims would come to believe that he — as opposed to investigators — offered the best shot of getting back their money, according to court filings.
At least one person gave Lewalski $50,000 to pay for a lawyer — and this occurred AFTER Lewalski had chartered a private Gulfstream IV jet at a cost of $172,744 to fly from the United States to Belgium one day after he was charged civilly in Florida, according to court filings.
Despite all the pointers of fraud in all of the cases cited above, some folks STILL clung to the alien spaceship argument.
PPBlog
Posted on mlmhelpdesk:
behindmlm must be the “BS website” the poster is referring to. Nothing like info (truth) suppression to keep the scam going…
We can also research and compare to past experience. Do you think Zeek is bigger now than AdSurfDaily was, or JBP/JSS Tripler is now? Many of us have experience with them. We can also read what the eWallet providers advertise.
We can also analyze the eWallet providers own answers to support tickets and when we call, such as both STP and NxPay telling affiliates “Zeek has not transferred the money, the delay is NOT us”. Finally, we can analyze what Dawn says herself.
In other words, I don’t think the analysis undertaken here is “just speculating” but is rather careful analysis from all the data available, both directly (facts that we know) and indirect (what we can infer, and from experiences with other Ponzi’s even larger than Zeek).
k.chang will also point out the “no personal experience” falacy. You don’t need to have played football to be analyze the game.
Oops, sorry about the previous post.
Erin, they dont put a gun in your head and make you buy anything. please get that straight or you will confuse other people.
Unfortunately, that’s what scammers say in court when they’re caught. They basically blame the victim.
Sorry, ARGUMENT FAIL for you.
It seems Zeek’s corporate strategy of disallowing all independent website marketing is biting it in the rear. Usually you have creative marketers heavily SEO’ing their sites. They compete with other affiliates, but guarantee that the first few pages of Google search results all have positive spin.
It also seems that if Zeekland is fretting about BehindMLM and how it places on page 1, 2, and 3 on Google, how will they feel when K.Chang’s hub, realscam.com, patrickpretty.com, and a few other “Zeek critic” sites also pop on page 1?
And what untrue “soundbites” is this guy talking about? You mean like Paul Burks’ own post on OFAC sanctions that do not exist?
Perhaps Zeek has some upset ex-affiliate marketers from these banned OFAC countries that are making their personal mission to spread the world about Zeek’s lies. They are trying to protect the innocent. Oh, the power of the written word (and Google search engine rankings).
I usually ignore affiliate video ads but with this guy looking like the KFC Colonel I couldn’t help myself. These videos were uploaded sometime in the last 24 hours (July 7th, 2012).
Watch what happens in Jerry Honstein’s Zeek Rewards promo video at the 1:30-1:35 mark… and then have a listen from [2:15] onwards for a bit. Lol?
+10 points to whoever spots it first!
(ps. I imagine the video will be pulled soon enough, let me know if it’s not working and I’ll put it up somewhere else)
“We inv…. we purchase bids”
Then the whole pyramid thing, LOL.
+10 points, *highfive*!
Oh, and incase anyone’s wondering what business Honstein is referring to that he runs, that’d be Dental Ventures of America, Inc.
As per CEO and founder Honstein himself, apparently DVA is a pyramid scheme.
Honestein’s description of a Ponzi scheme and why Zeek Rewards isn’t one is also amusing:
Lol what?
First of all Zeek Rewards of course do pay early investors (the ones with a large enough point balance to able to withdraw and grow their investment at the same time), with somebody else’s money (new affiliates and existing affiliates who invest more in VIP bids and retail bids through fake customer accounts).
Secondly COO Dawn Wright-Olivarez has already confirmed Zeek Rewards “don’t do anything” with affiliate money before paying it out to other affiliates. She confirmed this when she told affiliates that if they wanted to be paid via a certain e-wallet, they (or other affiliates) first had to make more deposits with that particular e-wallet first (because there was no affiliate money left in there to pay out with).
Money deposited by affiliates into e-wallet accounts and then paid out by Zeek Rewards from said accounts means it doesn’t touch Zeek Rewards, ie. “they don’t do anything with it”.
And what’s this baloney about “Zeek Reward’s” money, it’s clearly affiliate money as per the above.
Meanwhile, there’s more investment lol at [5:20]:
Sounds like a guarantee to me.
More investment shenanigans:
This is how Zeek Rewards is advertised to new affiliates as of July 7th, 2012.
But it’s not an investment!
And even more hilarious psuedo Zeek Rewards compliance dancing around the whole Ponzi investment business model:
Did you catch the bit at about 1:53 into the video…. Every day Zeekler rewards us in direct proportion to the number of bids WE have purchased. Note, the affiliates bid purchases – NOT the customers because there are none.
I thought they were supposed to be rewarding people with 50% of the daily net revenue from the penny auctions.
This guy reminds me of Santa Claus…. now, everybody put on their reindeer antlers (or tinfoil hats) and think really hard about what you want for Christmas…. Take that money you were saving for gifts and BUY BIDS with it!!!
Then, POOF – magically you will have anything you want in a few short months. Yeah, that’s the ticket :).
Missed that one but you’re right.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy, it’s hard enough trying to market Zeek Rewards in written form avoiding the whole obvious investment issue… during one-take videos that go on for >10 mins must be a nightmare.
Hey Grandpa now that you convinced me and my friends to join zeek and were still waiting to get money out of our ewallets to recoup our initial investment. Can you please sell the leroy neiman painting above the fireplace for this month payment.
I promise we will pay you back with interest. BTW thanks for leaving your phone number on the video so you can explain to my friend why they haven’t got paid yet.
Hey, what do you guys mean? If someone wants to get into Zeek they likely can’t anyway…I mean with the credit cards not working and the e-wallets only take one type of card, etc. it’s almost impossible to fund any purchase, LOL.
Don’t worry, Dan O will get it all figured out…in a couple years.
What about the part where he says 1 affiliate to every 21 customers, where did he pull that from? Or maybe I dont wanna know!
Unless he actually defines affiliates (“active”, paid, or all?) and customers (all who signed up, who have received free bids, or who have actually PURCHASED ____ bids over period of 30-60 days), that “ratio” doesn’t mean anything.
Dawn tried to fob that on Troy Dooly a while back claiming 1 to 25 ratio, never defined it either.
Just heard something hilarious:
ZeekRewardNews posted an article allegedly from their IT about how to keep a strong password, by including punctuation marks like %$&*(…
Then immediately added a caveat: you can’t do it on ZeekRewards.
WTF?! Clearly the password article was “copied” from somewhere else. Quick, someone run a CopyScape plagiarism scanner on it!
Looks like Zeek IT staff wrote that themselves as I didn’t see phrase matches in Google. But it is pretty telling not only the irony you mentioned with Zeek not supporting symbols (but recommending it) as a strong password, but more importantly, there’s not a single recommendation about password length.
Password length is the most important factor after not using dictionary word. They focus on character entropy and “guessability” without simply recommending a long enough password (that is not a dictionary word).
Also not a single word about using different passwords from your email and eWallet accounts, so that the compromise of one doesn’t affect the other. As an affiliate, I am very concerned about that – if Zeek’s system is compromised do they stored passwords in hashes, or plain text like Sony did?
Who does their IT security anyways? Oh wait, don’t answer that.
Dawn hasn’t been publicly seen or heard from since her ‘we can’t pay you until more affiliates deposit money in our e-wallet accounts’ call a few weeks ago as far as I know.
The next Red Carpet event is coming up soon isn’t it?
Yeah I spotted that too:
So by Zeek Rewards’s own admission, none of the password their affiliates are using are secure. Good one guys.
How condescendingly partisan. If you write about MLM penny auctions you’re either a critic not interested in facts, or you’re Troy Dooly.
Here’s a decent man that is excited about Zeek Rewards who said the word we do not speak.
As Dawn did a couple of months on the Aces Live radio interview, will she whip her blanket cape and zapp the poor soul with her compliance wand?! PonziSpelliarmus!!
As I said earlier in another post on BMLM naming Dawn as the kingpin along with her ponzi crew.
Not saying Paul Burk is a back woods Billy Bob and has no clue on what’s going on at this point. I slightly believe at one point he thought or was convinced his penny auction would grow with the help of affiliate promotion. Then affiliate money starts rolling in faster then auction item are rolling out.
Now we have just created a ponzi. Are we going to stop all this money from coming in even though we don’t have the items going out. (OH Hell NO) Money = Greed.
Now all we need is affiliates to purchase bids through zeekler auction and match their money with vip points plus 20% commission to keep it real. And in the long run we can blame the affiliates on finding a loophole in the system and we never knowing they were using phony customers.
Now here’s the killer part, if we ever get investigated by the authorities we will ban them for life and take away all vip point and monies. Don’t think for one moment Paul and Dawn won’t pull that card out of their sleeve.
Lets think for a moment how many affiliates are guilty of this. The classic catch 22.
To be fair, Troy Dooly has always portrayed himself as a MLM advocate, not a critic.
I’ve previously identified 6 types of MLMers. Troy is a “MLM Supporter” (along with lawyers, comp plan writers, etc.)
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Six-Types-of-Network-Marketers-which-type-are-you
Troy also seems to be incapable of recognizing the difference between GV that is paid from actual sales vs. Zeek’s RPP which has an investment model. Troy also cannot see how matching VIP points means there is no Zeekler revenue, even if the points are “virtual” and is not guaranteed, the practical impact is when the rate drops the business collapses.
Contrast this with typical MLM bonus pool allocation based on PV/GV which is supplementary to the comp plan and always a result of revenue, whereas with Zeek the RPP has a feedback loop as a input into non-existent new revenue.
Which is why it’s so surprising he doesn’t see the similarity to Ad Surf Daily, despite him claiming familiarity with Gerry Nehra and the ASD case.
Thank you everyone for the advice! (Sorry for my late reply).
My upline says this is all pure negativity. He didn’t know that I heard him say on a webinar, after it was finished, that he finally got in something that was making him money. His wife retired last week from her job, he plans on retiring in two weeks.
But he told me yesterday that he couldn’t get his money that had been deposited in his ewallet account moved to his bank, same problem I have now that I didn’t have with nxpay, while the ewallet company is telling me that they are still processing verifications from 6/18???. But this is all just a bunch of negativity. HA!
I run a legitimate sales organization which does provide me with some real residuals. I can recognize this is just going play out, and the players “may” have been played.
Trying to sign into zeek keep getting (Server Error). Anyone else having this problem.
Yes, I’m having the same problem. This problem just started happening today. What’s up with that?
I hate to say this, but he’s managed to convinced HIMSELF, and now he’s trying to fob it off on you.
Scam victims often become scammer’s most ardent defenders, either of their own volition or through further victimization / goading from the scammer.
In the US, several members of Ad Surf Daily Ponzi (in fact, they could be your uplines in Zeek, Disner and Schweitzer) sued the Federal government for wrongfully prosecuting ASD. Their lawsuit was just tossed out of court like 2 months ago.
In India, victims of an alleged Ponzi scheme called SpeakAsia formed a member association, but instead of helping the police get their money back, they paid off one of the complaining victims to BLOCK investigations, hope to restart the scheme.
It is STANDARD excuse to blame “negativity”, but if you have no negativity, you become completely reckless. THAT IS BAD. As you left all diligence and prudence behind, and basically live in la-la land instead of reality.
Fortunately, his lack of $$$ may have given him a reality check, that he may receptive to an explanation how reckless he had been. Read this, and maybe show him
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Danger-of-Seeking-Positivity-and-Ignoring-Negativity
Just signed into Zeek and went right o my back office etc..
@Greg…Negativity? If I had a dime for every time some idiot in an MLM who was taking my money used that phrase to stop a question I’d already be retired. It’s the oldest trick in the book.
Asking questions isn’t negative. It’s called being smart. And if you run a legit sales organization I think you can see the train headed off the tracks here, easily.
People with pie-in-the-sky dreams of striking it rich don’t want anyone raining on their parade. It’s like they don’t want to face reality that the naysayers could be right, and perhaps deep down they know they’re right.
I called them up today to pick their brains on the ewallets, my sponsors that is. The explanation is just to use payza.
I really didn’t buy much in bids to begin with but I’ve been recruiting some downline though. My concern is for these people, and I feel like I may to blame if this goes belly up soon, just when all seemed well if you listened to the leadership.
Willful blindness on their part doesn’t sound like a good excuse, though.
I know the upline is*making*good on the positive*spin*
*a
The big question: what happens when affiliate money sitting in Zeek Rewards’ Payzaa account runs out.
They already appear to be paying off STP members selectively and NXPay is only taking affiliate deposits to build up their balance before they pay the same money out again as withdrawals.
Selective paying through STP appears to be a manual allocation of funds to balance what affiliates are paying into the scheme via STP and NXPay is exhausted. When the Payzaa desposited affiliate money reserves run out what then?
Zeek is still trying to recover from the STP issues from around mid-June where VIP bids were purchased but not credited. Now, just today, it looks like Zeek affiliates purchasing via Payza are seeing their funds deducted from Payza but NOT credited in their backoffice for VIP bid purchases.
Zeek support says to contact Payza first before contacting Zeek to make really sure that the purchase went through and the problem isn’t with Payza. It looks like it’s all the eWallets’ fault…
This is what is scary to me. I have set it to pay me 100% but what if it goes down before I get it all? In order for me to all that is due to me, it will take probably until the end of the year and I’m not sure if Zeek will be around that long according to how they are paying us…
Interesting hub showing a ZR hacker in action
http://charles-s.hubpages.com/hub/Scammed-Again
That was good of Zeek to cover his losses:
“Amazingly, ZeekRewards reset those stolen payments to the status of unpaid, a very generous thing to do. So they made up the loss caused by the scammer.”
Zeek can reset status to unpaid because they have a 2-3 week drag from when you request payment to when you get paid. If Zeek set it to unpaid instead of changing the payee info, you now have to rerequest payment and wait that 2-3 week drag period again.
I can’t believe all these people are getting their sites hacked even with strong passwords. I’m an affiliate for several companies and have been for years and I’ve never once been hacked.
Maybe it’s because some individuals have weak passwords, but I still think something else has to be going on for so many to get hacked. I would guess that Zeek’s site is not that secure.
The problem is when you made up the name of your zeekrewards site. That name is also your user name and your classified ad zeekler URL name which is open to the world. And in many case a lot of down line (friends) will join you if you do all the advertising work for them.
So by using their username as their password plus a couple of easy number (123) makes it easy to login to all their accounts to run their ads.
Yeah looks like a fun program until I stop paying or slow or they have excuses why it’s not all on
time I’m from the streets Chicago bitch better have money lol m ha ha
Fair enough, but the fact remains that Zeek was apparently willing to double-pay his commissions since his first payment was stolen.
My point here is that no money was actually stolen. It looks like it form the way he described it, but Zeek restored access to his account within 1-week after it was hacked. It takes at least 2 weeks to get paid from Zeek, so the money was never transferred to Payza.
His dismay at why the hacker would reject his invoice request from Payza is troubling because it doesn’t look like any more was actually transferred, only “requested to be transferred”.
All Zeek did was reset the payout requests to “unpaid” so he could re-request it. Unless there are details he didn’t include, that’s what I think happened.
@Jimmy
Yeah that’s how I read it, if you look at the guys request through Payza it was sent June 18th, roughly 10 days after the last withdrawal request.
Quite obviously this Charles guy didn’t sit on his hands for 10 days doing nothing so would have contacted ZR well before the 18th request was sent through Payza to the hacker.
They caught it within the 2 week delay period and would have just reset the transaction. So in effect no money left ZR and they didn’t pay out anything (I assume Charles went back to 100% compounded investment).
Is it just me or could the whole scenario have been avoided if ZR sent out a simple email vertification link to the account that you’re changing payouts from before it accepts a new email?
Eg. Payment email is X and hacker tries to change it to email address ‘Y’. ZR sends out an email with verification link to email ‘X’ which is only open for an hour or so. If the verification link is clicked then no email change takes place and another email is sent to email X informing them of this so they know someone is playing funny buggers with their account.
Seems like a boneheadedly simple solution to all this hacking nonsense (and standard industry practice when using email for identity verification).
Yeah we still have one down line account not even given back after we can have hackers training account two weeks almost no response back from fraud department what is going on with these guys’s company needs to step it up.!
is it all they want is deposits see me more see me more fish give me more money into our account so we can pay you back jacks asses();
Only one problem using Payza…at the moment they are not taking credit cards the easiest most logical thing to do. You can finance bids out of your bank account but a LOT of folks don’t trust giving their bank account numbers to anyone, much less a business that doesn’t answer their phones, etc.
Zeek had better figure out a better way to take money or they’ll soon crash and burn if only from a lack of cash flow.
Much less to a third-party eWallet company based out of Russia, and with inadequate banking licenses in some US states.
@Tizza: I did see that, not exactly generous because nothing was lost, but the right thing to do.
@Oz: Unless the hacker hacked his email account as well and they had they same passwords for ZR.
I wonder when Zeek are going to have their first billionaire ? can’t be far off for the early birds lol.
Zeek must have earned at least a billion in revenue from their beloved CheapLer Penny Auction site.(Sarcasm)
My mother-in-law said that their account is up to $18,000 (18,000 points) already. They’ve been in ZR for only around 2 1/2 months and putting in $1000 or maybe $2000.
At some point, the “too good to be true” saying really needs to kick in, because what other (legal and valid) investment opportunity doubles your investment 9 times in about 3 months?
@joe Mama no way can they have 18000 pts after 2 1/2 months if they’ve only started with 1 or 2k. I know two people who started with each one of those amounts and after five months they still aren’t even near 18000 points.
18,000 points != $18,000.
I’d imagine it’s possible, 2.5 months is well within the initial 90 day expiration period and if they convinced enough people to invest after them so they pick up the referral commissions, why not.
Since a long-time friend from a woman’s group made a pitch to us, the issue has seemed simple enough to me: it’s the difference between points and money.
She said she put in $3,000 and has made way more than that back. I asked whether what she made back was in real money that could be spent in a store?
An awkward pause……………….. Not exactly, was the answer. You put in money and it compounds, and the more you put in and the longer you keep it in, the more and more it builds up! It wouldn’t make sense to take it out, because it’s multiplying the points so much!
Okay, I’ve got it. You put in real money, then there’s some Internet flim-flam they call points, and later you can’t get real money out because the whole thing collapses.
Oz, Jimmy, KS Chang, you guys are doing a major public service, you know. This is important.
It’s possible if they have recruited people in their downline.
* First level downline will give 10% commission on all investments and reinvestments.
* Second level downline will give 5% commission.
* Third level investments will “roll up” in the system, and give a small commission when second and first level reinvests their commissions.
So $1,000 invested (or 1000 RPP reinvested) will give upline a commission:
* $100 to the direct sponsor
* $60 to the sponsor’s sponsor
* $11 to the sponsor’s sponsor’s sponsor
* $4.10 to the next sponsor in the upline
* $0.96 to the next
and so on and so forth, if they all are reinvesting their commissions
Well they’ve been signing a lot of people up, so I wouldn’t be surprised if their point balance was that high. But I don’t know for sure how much money they’ve put into it. I know they started with $1,000 and later my wife said that her father put in more.
Of course I’ve never heard them talk about how many customers they have.
It’s definitely possible to have 18k points after 2.5 months. If you purchased $1000 and say recruited a total of $70k new investment, that’s an additional 7k points right there.
From the $70k in investment that you directly recruited, you earn about $105/day in compounding daily profit share. Since he probably didn’t recruit everyone on day 1, let’s say instead of 2.5 months he enjoyed 55 days of 10% commission on $70k investment. That’s 55 x $105 = $5775 before taking into account the compounding.
So this guy would have:
– 1k points from initial $1k investment
– 7k points from 10% of $70k he recruited
– 5.8k points from daily RPP over 50 day period
That’s already 13.8k points before factoring in the compounding. Add in the compound affect and he could be at 18k points.
When you look at the comp plan and how fast it grows/compounds, it only further raises red flags that this can’t be anything but a Ponzi. There’s just no way any amount of retail penny auction business can support even 10% of this revenue payout.
A friend of mine—–( invested) oops i mean purchased ten thousand bid points he now has 113,968 vip points (monopoly money).
I have been trying to tell him to cash out but dawn’s black cape keeps pulling him i think the hamburgler has done him in.i am considering betting him three hundred dollars that zeekland will be done by sept 30 anyone agree.
By the way this is my first post on this site. I have been following.
On today’s training call, Dawn said Zeek was working on new back office functionality that instead of globally disabling NxPay option, it would only give you that option if there was sufficient funds in the NxPay account.
So all this talk about fixing the eWallet issues and the news of the week is that Zeek is just adding some efficiency to the process? A back end API call to NxPay to check funds available before allowing you to withdraw from it?
Amazing… I thought the delays were related to the “banking issues” that Troy said had been resolved weeks ago and the challenges in funding the eWallet from the bank account. This is a simple API query that would take 10 minutes to code.
He could switch to 20% cash out and take out $2400/week and still maintain his balance with some growth, as I’m assuming he has recruited others so he earns commissions form their RPP reinvestment as well.
It would only take 4 weeks for him to recover original investment.
This is the thing with Ponzi’s… at some point you need to cash out because it won’t last forever. Just like timing the stock market, or knowing the sports scores in advance, if you knew when it was going to end, you could be really rich.
This is why it is so insidious that Zeek employees are also affiliates, because they have insider knowledge – I wonder if this would increase likelihood of legal action against employees and not just the company and owner when regulators come swooping in.
Let me rephrase if you only purchased a $1000 or $2000 sample bids and did nothing else you would not come close to 18000pts after 3months. Obviously if you had created a downline then that would be possible but from reading the posting it doesn’t say or imply anything about having a downline.
Any new person that would read that statement would prob interpret it as they’ve only purchased bids and done nothing else. I’m simply pointing out that it is impossible to be at that mark without having a huge downline or without purchasing more bids along the way.
My mother-in-law said that their account is up to $18,000 (18,000 points) already. They’ve been in ZR for only around 2 1/2 months and putting in $1000 or maybe $2000.
At some point, the “too good to be true” saying really needs to kick in, because what other (legal and valid) investment opportunity doubles your investment 9 times in about 3 months?
A bit of the ol’ ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours‘?
Definitely sounds like it. Mitch McDeere commented on this over at realscam.com, that one key quid pro quo benefit that Troy gets is the increased visibility and readership. Most Zeek affiliates had NOT heard of Troy Dooly before, but now he is their new expert industry analyst.
Troy is an expert in MLM compensation plans, but he is still struggling on his blog to understand the replies from some (including K. Chang) who are explaining the Zeek comp plan as an investment model, and how PV and GV for Zeek is not derived from sales as in a normal MLM but from RPP which is recycled and compounds.
Doesn’t this blog (BehindMLM) also benefit from increased visibility and readership thanks to Zeek? Of course it does.
Most Zeek affiliates had not heard about this blog either before Zeek, so I’m not sure what that proves.
BehindMLM isn’t selling anything to Zeek Rewards affiliates (or anyone else for that matter). This is truly an “information-only” blog.
(and before anyone mentions advertising, it is all handled by an independent third party company who has nothing to do with BehindMLM, unlike MLMHelpdesk website membership which is a service being marketed by the website itself).
A direct financially beneficial mutual arrangement between parties is a slippery slope, moreso when one party is claiming to offer unbiased critical analysis of the other party involved.
It explains a lot of the ‘let me call someone up and I’ll get back to you’ replies that go unanswered. These have been appearing in increased frequency over at MLMHelpdesk ever since Dooly fomally accepted Dawn’s proposal a few months ago (the exact details of which have never been divulged by either party).
Other than Dooly frequenting Zeek Rewards corporate events as an official “Zeek Rewards Training Consultant”, Zeek Rewards promoting membership at his website MLM Helpdesk and Dooly denying Zeek Rewards pay him “as a rep”, nothing else has been publicly disclosed regarding the nature of the relationship that exists between Troy Dooly and Zeek Rewards.
Both websites will no doubt still be around after Zeek Rewards however so take the above however you want to. Both BehindMLM and MLMHelpdesk have been reporting on MLM for years and I hope that we can continue to bounce off eachother in the years to come as we cover the MLM industry from our own perspectives.
That said, the animosity towards myself and regular commenters on this website (who have been around long before Zeek Rewards started in some cases), from Zeek Rewards affiliates perhaps both new to BehindMLM and MLMHelpdesk is rather saddening to see. Especially when you consider it appears to be solely based on ad-hominem attacks and dismissal of the discussion and content on BehindMLM as “negative”.
One MLMHelpdesk reader even recently complained about none of their comments making it through on here and inferred that proved inherent bias. I put a great amount of effort into making sure the comment discussion here is relatively on topic and targeted. I don’t want to wade through a bunch of marketing spam and I’m sure nobody else looking for objective information does either.
By and large most of the comments regarding Zeek Rewards that get sent to the spam bin are ‘I’m getting paid so Zeek Rewards isn’t a scam’, ‘you’re all liars, contact me for the real story’, blatant marketing pitches and hit and run commenters who post links to external resources with no further commentary or opinion on the content linked to itself (this happens particularly when Dooly puts out a new video of late).
These comments add nothing to the discussion and are always sent to the spam bin. That’s not going to change anytime soon.
If nothing else one would hope the increased traffic over these past few months will help refine Dooly’s ability to keep the discussion via comments on topic and informative, avoiding the childish slanging matches these discussions all too often attract.
Of course I also wholly appreciate the predicament of angering your core readership if they are the same people you’re trying to pitch a $75 anuual website membership to. Whether you’re Troy Dooly, Oz or anyone else in the MLM blogosphere – this is not an easy niche to exist in.
Three years in, I’m still just a guy with a keyboard.
It seems that troy could be using this whole Zeeks thing,to drive customers to his site for personal marketing.
If this is the case my hat is off to him.
All the profitand no legal liability. if so, last Zeeks video up date should put him in line for an Oscar!!!
Keep this open info many good, but naive people will be hurt!
Without mention of Zeek, this puts Troy Dooly out of MLM Supporter camp and moves him into the “MLM coach” camp.
WITH the mention of Zeek, this seriously calls into question whether he’s neutral or not.
@K Chang
Do you really think Troy has ever been neutral about Zeek? I don’t think so.
He can qualify as a “ponzi” coach. Those of us that actually make a living in network marketing as a profession take offense to someone like Troy claiming to be an “MLM Coach”.
Here’s a select set of hate comments on my hub about ZeekRewards:
Yes, someone wished death on me for being “negative” on ZeekRewards.
Why is it a farce? The guy didn’t explain at all.
From the same guy:
Apparently, your analysis is only valid if you have “credentials” to back them up. Apparently, logic is reserved for “credentialed” people. 😉
From the same guy:
Apparently, this guy thinks with his balls, not with his brain. 😉
There’s quite a bit more, but it’s no fun to quote them.
I honestly can’t tell whether he’s merely misguided (and can be lead to see the truth), or he’s pulling wool over all of our eyes.
SOMETIMES I got him to admit he doesn’t know much about ZeekRewards as he thinks, but he immediately swaps to his knowledge of OTHER MLMs in defense. It *could* be can’t see the forest for the trees, I honestly don’t know.
Also, note that the ACTUAL posts are not really defending ZeekRewards, though he’s definitely showing a pro-ZR bias in the replies he make.
It is clear which site would Zeekheads rather read.
So, to those who are trying to make up their minds: READ BOTH WEBSITES, and see which ones actually discuss the issues honestly, fully, without PR spin.
I think I’ve tried to compose a post for realscam with a nuanced and balanced opinion of Mr. Dooly’s coverage of ZR. I will finish it one day but as he keeps publishing updates and comments he’s sorta making me pull my hair out and necessitating revisions.
Here’s the deal, there is a huge vacuum of honest critical thinking inside the MLM world and it’s a systemic issue. Case and point, Oz is doing what almost no one else is willing to do and he get’s painted as “Anti-MLM” because of it.
I come from a more direct Anti-Scam background, quite honestly I don’t find MLM all that compelling. Not that there hasn’t been a mega crap load of scams dressed up in MLM clothing it’s more like I even if I did convince a potential Asea rep that it’s kinda stupid to spend $140 for a case of salt water I’d have to spend time next week trying to convince the same person not to try and sell magic beans.
This is why I respect and value the people with the patients to deal with the topic. But understand, MLM is very much a “he who is not for me is against me” game and Troy is very much for them. And I don’t really have a problem with that except when he presents himself as neutral and objective.
He’s a Cheerleader, and there’s nothing wrong with that until he tries to make pompoms out of red flags. He has his opinion of ZR and we have ours, time will tell.
I think the most productive use of our time and his is to make sure that both sides of the argument are represented on his blog in the most responsible manner possible. Then, when the fullness of time has come we can endeavor to some meeting of the minds.
That will be far too late to help ZR affiliates but it may help potential affiliates of all the ZR copy cats.
Hey, have you guys noticed the drop in zeekler.com’s Alexa traffic rank over the few days? If so, what do you make of it?
Nice find Al, yeah zeekrewards dot com is the same, major plunge!?
Wow, no kidding…
TD is NFI clearly. By that I mean, Naive or Forcefully Ignorant. The latter more likely, ala Sargeant Schultz.
Found an interesting article over on Mr. Kevin Thompson’s website. He’s an MLM attorney (indeed, he’s the one that helped Bidify incorporate in the US). From that, I quote:
http://themlmattorney.com/33-reasons-not-to-start-a-mlm/
Sounds familiar? 😉
K. Chang also wrote on Apr 22, 2012:
He forgot a few:
34. Your pay plan looks almost exactly the same as a HYIP that was recently shut down by the FTC/SEC as a Ponzi scheme.
35. Several of your key players were recently insiders in another shady company that was recently shut down and sued.
36. Your management team are placed as top level affiliates rather than drawing salaries.
37. You are planning to use a family members who is a junior level programmer to do your mission critical IT.
38. Your pay plan depends on people SPAMing the Internet.
39. You are planning to use cartoon images created by a local toddler as your company’s illustrations on newsletters.
40. Your company communication sounds condescending like your are lecturing junior high school students.
41. Your idea of customer service is ignoring problems in hopes that they’ll go away or people will forget about them, and finally solving them when enough people complain.
Regarding my in-laws: I really don’t know how many points they have, just that my MIL said they were up to $18,000.
Come to think of it, I think they may have joined back in April, so that would put them at around 3 months or so. At any rate, as I stated they were signing up a lot of people, just about everyone they could think of.
My wife did say that they put more money into it, but how much I don’t know. She was a bit concerned, though, that they were putting so much in.
Ever since I told my wife I was tired of her parents doing second-hand check flashing (“_______ is making $4,000 a week, he showed us the checks”) to me, either trying to get me excited about Zeek or trying to appeal to greed, they’ve not been discussing Zeek Rewards in any great detail around me. I just catch something here & there in passing.
I’ve not talked about ZR to them since a while back when I voiced my concerns about it being a ponzi. I just hope they’re able to recover their money before it collapses or is shut down, and hopefully everyone they signed up won’t lose money either. But I don’t see it lasting that long.
Some very interesting reading from Patrick Pretty:
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2012/07/13/zeek-promoters-send-email-to-adsurfdaily-members-asking-them-to-wire-money-to-confessed-ponzi-schemer-andy-bowdoins-jailhouse-account-in-the-district-of-columbia-zeekers-owe-this-man-a-great-dea/
You know, the good natured part’s of us say “I hope so and so get’s their money out before it collapses…” I honestly can’t say that I hope that. I hope they all get screwed and get stuck with a valuable lesson.
Great Patrick Petty article. I’m posting the link all over Facebook! Had lot’s of positive response. I suggest you all do the same. ASD and Zeek…birds of a feather flock together.
Why can’t these guys, who made 6 and 7 figures from ASD, and are making 6 and 7 figures from Zeek, just give Andy money from their own pockets without soaking “the downlines” for more money?
You know, sometimes that does cross my mind, especially when Zeekheads smugly say things like, “just wait until I’m rich, you won’t be so negative about it then.” I guess some people just have to learn the hard way.
Unfortunately a lot of them will still fall for the next get-rich-quick scheme that comes along, even after being burned from the last one.
… so glad to hear it!
@Cashed Out — thanks for those additions! I rewrote that a little and it’s now published as
“Warnings signs you should heed when your ‘opportunity’ is about to nose dive” (well, not exact title)
http://kschang.hubpages.com/t/31eb3e
Here’s my latest Facebook post:
Nice FB post with a good lead in to get their attention. To bad it will get deleted.
That PPblog article makes a pretty comeplling case for why all affiliates should stay away from Zeek. Troy Dooly and Gerry Nehra will say “but this one is different” to which I would say “follow the money”.
I posted that on my own Facebook page…I have enough network marketing friends in Zeek Rewards that I figured I could piss off. The funny thing…still not one zeek head has come against me from my post. I don’t think theres much they could say, but I’m looking for a good battle.
That PPblog, in my opinion, is the most damaging piece we’ve seen on zeek so far. “Help us bail out our mentor and Ponzi King, because he’s the one that gave us the business model for zeek!”
Really…how stupid could they be! I’ve seen some really dumb things come from leadership, but this takes the cake.
Any chance we could see your FB page?
http://www.facebook.com/erik.cloud
Thanks.
You would think Todd Disner could donate just one day’s RPP to Andy Bowdin’s jail fund. That would be enough to pay for all the shoes and tooth brushes Andy will need for life.
Why send a note out to the down lines? Greedy bastard!
I’m posting my dialogue with Troy on his website incase he doesn’t approve my comments.
Todd Disner has over a million points and is one of the top 12 making over $1M per month. Yes, he is a leader. He might have more points that Dawn and Daryl Douglas.
Todd Disner was also the king of the check flashing leaders, with several YouTube videos since taken down but promoting Zeek as an investment with compound interest and showing his back office points over a 4 month period in late 2011.
Thanks for confirming that Jimmy, kinda what I suspected.
You could always ask Troy if Disner was present at Zeek’s Red Carpet Round Table (actually square in shape) meetings where they gather all their leaders.
At least some of the names Pretty mentions would have been there.
Yeah good point Oz….In most network marketing companies (or companies masked as one), someone who earns a million a month usually isn’t an unknown commodity. Guess he doesn’t quality for leadership status in Dooly’s mind.
He did post my first reply…I imagine he’s in the process of crafting a response. I look forward to it.
Yeah doesn’t matter how many points you have in your back office or whatever your daily earnings seeing you makes when they don’t pay you it’s all a dream land game.
Get real people unless they pay you one time it all a dream that wont come true in the end.And with their leadership they have yeah you need to go ahead and get a whole new staff as well.
They always hide Info bring out at the last moment while all of us wait wonder if we going get paid. Ya it’s been good for few Months but payments are slowing down and are late now these days!
Well, I’ll help him out (and also offer up a weekend assignment to anyone who’s interested). Here’s the inner circle of Zeek Rewards leaders, the top earners, the core leadership, whatever you want to call them.
Every red carpet event they set time aside to come together and sit apart from the regular affiliate raff to discuss Zeek Rewards in private.
There is at least one person off camera, otherwise there are 12 people in the room (click to enlarge).
I’m not familiar with the faces of Ad Surf Daily but if I’m not mistaken, that’s Todd Disner sitting in the forefront playing on his mobile phone isn’t it?
I’ve got the ball rolling with Wright-Olivares and Burks, let’s see if we can fill in the rest of the blanks by Monday.
(I’ve forwarded a copy of this photo to Patrick Pretty for some help and Dooly is probably familiar with many of the faces too (might even be Dooly himself telling them what a great job they’re all doing off camera)).
@e
If you continue with similar dialogs there, Troy will probably permanently place you in the spam bin. 🙂
Troy doesn’t have to be unbiased. Companies can pay him $1,000 for a review, or pay for ads on his site, or pay for something similar. Then he will clearly have a duty to protect his clients interests, the client who has paid for his services.
The prices can be found in the menus on the top of his blog, under “Advertising”.
So when Troy sudddenly becomes positive to a company, it’s probably because they have paid him for it. That’s probably why he suddenly becomes “blind” to certain details too.
Here’s all that Troy had to say to me…didn’t address my first letter just the second…and it’s the weakest response Troy has ever given in my opinion. (about putting 10K in and having others put 10K in, I don’t know how to do the green box thing).
From Troy:
@M_Norway
He may put me in the spam bin…I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I’m not backing off until I get real answers from him. He’s been dancing around all these issues for months and I’m getting bored with him.
@e
If he doesn’t throw you in the spam bin, he’s going to have some fancy ‘splaining to do to get out of this one.
He’ll most likely just dodge you until you have him so cornered that he has to answer or hit ‘spam’. If he hits spam, we have our answer.
@rdb….looking forward to the outcome either way!
Troy’s Response to my 8 questions:
Bruce Disner (Todd’s brother) here with Andy Bowdin: http://www.asdupdates.com/photos.html
Oz…is it a lot of work to put Troy’s 8 answers in green to my 8 questions so we can all be on the same page?
Video of Todd Disner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYW5zpH_UKE
You can also google on his phone number to get matches on all sorts of Todd Disner related activities. He uses “tdisner” for replicated user id’s and gmail account. He has advertised it in multiple ASD related venues as well.
Here’s Brads comment on mlmhelpdesk followed by Dooly’s reply:
From Dooly:
From e to Dooly:
What Tory needs to realize is that everyone promotes Zeek as an investment with a wink, a nudge, and lots of implication. Just because I saw “you purchase bids and gain daily profit share which allows you to purchase more bids to increase you point balance” doesn’t mean that it’s not an investment.
If I slapped your pet hamster around and I called it “kinetic action”, I’m still a hamster abuser.
Troy also refuses to recognize how matching VIP points for retail purchases means that even legitimate customers are contributing negative net revenue to the retail business, because Zeek Rewards pays out > 100% in compensation for the revenue gained on the retail side.
Slapping hamster, kinetic action and hamster abuse…I can’t stop laughing my ass off! Well said Jimmy!
@e
They’re only a few comments apart, still easy to read IMO.
Dooly seems to be missing the importance of the email. It’s not about supporting your friends in jail, asking downlines to send Bowdoin money, or guilt by association (Bowdoin has admitted ASD was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme).
The importance of the email is that it spells out what attracted top Ad Surf Daily earners to the company, in that they found it strikingly similar to Ad Surf Daily. Similar enough that they credit Zeek Rewards’ business model as being built upon ASD before it.
When you factor in that these are the same people who were attracted to the passive investment nature of ASD, and that the creator of ASD has confessed no less that ASD was nothing more than a Ponzi scheme funded my member money, it should be cause for alarm in itself.
The attraction and why these ex-ASD top earners joined Zeek Rewards is what’s important here. Through all the compliance winking a nudging at the end of the day you invest $x, buy customers for peanuts (customers don’t even know they are being signed up), automate your daily ad posting and sit back and earn a passive ROI over 90 days.
Where does this ROI come from? New member investments, either in the form of direct investment in VIP bids or indirectly through fake customer accounts purchasing retail bids.
A court of law might establish the legality of a business model, but you don’t need a court of law to define a Ponzi scheme. Anymore so than you need a court of law to establish that somebody is indeed dead after they were murdered.
Finally stop and think about just how idiotic the statement ‘how much non-affiliate money makes up the commissions we pay out is proprietary information’.
Seriously?
It’s either a majority or it isn’t and to make the ridiculous claim that it’s propietary information only cements the fact that this is information that would confirm that, like ASD, Zeek Rewards is a Ponzi scheme.
All the other evidence supports it, lack of genuine retail customers, piddly daily auctions vs. multi-million dollar commission payouts, Zeek not paying out of e-wallets till affiliates top them up with deposits, Zeek cutting off banking directly between themselves and their affiliates, etc.
Let’s face it, if the amount of affiliate money going into the profit share was not a majority, Zeek Rewards management would be shouting it from the rooftops as it would prove without a doubt that they aren’t running a giant Ponzi scheme. And hell, I would be the first to run an article on it as it undoubtedly would be one of the greatest achievements in MLM over the last few decades.
But they’re not, instead holding hands with Troy Dooly and their compliance lawyers chanting that the revelation of whether or not their commissions are funded by an affiliate money majority is ‘proprietary information’.
Put it all together and this is a no brainer folks. The top earners in ASD were attracted to the business due to the ridiculous ROIs it offered as a Ponzi scheme. When ASD was shut down with Bowdoin only then admitting it was a Ponzi, they flocked to Zeek Rewards for the exact same reasons they joined ASD.
Wow, I feel flattered! I’m being mentioned as a “zeek hater” along with Oz and Kchang at mlmhelpdesk.
I flat out denied I’m even in the same caliber (which is absolutely true). I have to admit…I’m not objective…this zeek issue is personal for me.
“Zeek hater” is just a silly moniker designed to shift the focus from analysis and discussion of Zeek Rewards and its business model onto those analysing it. No different to “critic” or “negative person” or any of the other dozen or so dismissive labels used to merely discard information put forth then actually engage and address it.
Dooly himself has started doing this of late too (“I publish under my own name”, “I’m a marine” etc.). It’s a diversionary attempt to introduce irrelevant information into the discussion when they can’t engage the topic at hand.
Yes, agreed.
From Jack at mlmhelpdesk:
From e to Jack:
I was just about to tell Jack that you were Eric Cloud and that you linked your Fbook page over here, haha, you beat me to it. Great reply btw. It’s personal to me as well, can’t wait to zeek hit the dirt after an affiliate tried to sell me on it.
Its pretty easy to see that Zeekler generates crap for retail bid sales. NO ONE would buy VIP bids to give away if they did not generate an ROI (or reward or whatever the hell you wanna call it).
To Troy:
We have another interesting discussion going on in Troy’s blog, showing the true potential of Zeek, when an initial investment of $10,000 turns into 14-16 billion VIP points in 5.5 years (2000 days).
Starting with Brad’s comment as the QUESTION:
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/zeek-rewards-update-covering-the-most-of-current-developments-including-the-arrest-of-dung-xuan-nguyen-yesterday/#comment-60268
Some interesting viewpoints can be found in the answers, some posts further down in the thread:
And all of that volume comes from the penny auction products! Amazing! Right now as we speak there are 4 items…$100 Sephora Gift Card, A hoover vacuum, 100 bid pack, and a $200 best buy gift card.
There’s got to be at least 2 million people trying to win those 4 items! Go Zeek!!!
The current auction right now my generate about $500-$1000 in sales volume from those 4 items. Let’s see…times 1.5% compounded…blah blah…sharing company profit….blah blah…and millions of dollars in commissions will get paid today! It’s magic!
Wait a second…the bid pack just sold and they added an alarm clock! Game changer!
For the record…I now see lot’s of items on Zeekler auction…must of been an IT glitch this morning.
I still don’t know how the auction makes a profit? Especially if everyone is gambling with free bids and there doesn’t seem to be many people buying bids. I though people spending money on bids is what made a penny auction profitable?
Zeekler sells between 100 to 200 items per day in its auctions, an dkeep in mind many of the free auctions are low priced items.
Quibids sells between 4500 to 8000 auctions per day. There are different reviews on Quibids and some may be a couple years old, so I think they are doing 8000/day today but am not 100% sure. There is a lot of data showing 4500 per day from 2010 to 2011.
Also, the average price per item on Quibids is much lower, around $10 vs. near full price for Zeekler. Your value is a lot more and chance to win a lot better, obviously, because they don’t have artificially inflated bids through VIP point matching. None of the Zeek supporters seem to understand this, or do but are just deny it to “remain positive”.
Finally, the Zeekler interface sucks and there’s no way it could ever compete. There are so many things wrong with it – not just the aesthetics and lack of web 2.0 navigation, but core design flaws such as multiple javascript queries to multiple auctions even when you’re only interested in one auction, inability to load multiple auctions at once without the anti-hacker connection/bandwidth restrictions kicking in, and overall IT slowness and other problems causing auctions to freeze, ABE to be inconsistent, etc.
The problem is nearly everybody spending any money on bids is either an affiliate or connected to an affiliate, meaning the bids are purchased but then a 20% cash commission is paid to the affiliate and a 100% VIP point liability to the affiliate is incurred which compounds from there. So, any affiliate money purchasing bids is a net loss to Zeekler.
It is essential for Zeekler to survive long term that an overwhelming majority of the bid packs being purchased are bought by retail customers with no affiliate relationships. This is the only money from which Zeekler can really achieve a profit on. Anything else is just a shell game of cash flow now, larger liability later, meaning it is a Ponzi with no long term future.
The problem is that Zeekler is only appealing to affiliates since they can achieve 20% commission and VIP point growth via bid pack purchases and all this activity is a net loss to Zeekler.
True retail bidders ( like at Quibids ) will only purchase bid packs if they think the auction is fair and lucrative enough to potentially generate either savings on items they would buy anyways, or a low risk form of entertainment with the chance to win something nice.
Because Zeekler does not have “Buy-it-Now”, there is no low risk bidding to be had at Zeekler for retail customers. In addition, there is the added large negative of affiliates and affiliates relatives overbidding like crazy since they bought bids for cash commission and VIP points, not as real money to be spent on bids.
Another negative with Zeekler – the IT is not reliable, thus auctions can end from glitches, ABE is not a guaranteed way to stay in an auction (which renders it useless), and if you win something, you have to jump through large hoops and fees with EWallets in order to purchase the item, and then you wonder when if ever you will receive it.
With Quibids, if you win an auction, you can buy the item with a credit card and get it shipped to you reliably within 1-2 weeks, sometimes faster.
Even if some retail customers stumbled on Zeekler, they would have to be complete idiots to buy bids on there instead of Quibids, BidCactus, or other more mainstream penny auctions. It is also very unlikely they will experience a positive winning moment causing them to become repeat customers.
To be honest, if Zeekler was like Quibids then the company might have been more interesting, but I doubt it would have given a 1.4% per day compounding income plan either in that case.
Good explanation. Thanks.
@e
You are incredibly funny I’m in stitches actually.
What makes it so funny is this is exactly how I feel and I’m sure anyone else with half a brain would realize this too.
Keep reporting and the popcorn is one me 🙂
Funny, thanks Dion!
Oh, it will make some profit. The problem is there’s NO WAY they’re making 400K a DAY based on calculations and extrapolations from their 2011 disclosure.
If they have 250 auctions a day each auction need to bring in 1600 PROFIT.
However, counting the bids and auction used daily is somewhat deceptive. Bids are PRE-PURCHASED, and thus profit has already been received. Bids being expended on items are EXPENSES, on operations, item, shipping and handling, etc.
I calculated that Zeek paid out 58.5 million in 2011. That’s average PAYOUT of 160K a day. As it’s an increasing ramp, it’s probably closer to 220K by December 31 2011.
If you assume some numbers, like 80/20 repurchase, you can take a guess at the RPP: 1.1 million
Which means TOTAL VIP Point balance is already over 100 million. 😉
Six months later, even *with* expiration, it’s probably in 200-300 million range, maybe more. That’s 3.75 MILLION RPP PER DAY
Yeah, right.
Good math Kchang. Thanks.
Kchang, if that is based on the 2011 IDS it underreports the numbers as that IDS covers only the USA.
You can add another 10-20% if you want to account for the non-US folks.
Well I gave it another shot over at MLMHelpdesk.
You’ll of course note that this is a completely different topic to the question I initially put forth. My question remained unanswered.
Apart from answering a question I never asked, Troy then went on about free affiliates and retail commissions.
So it’s not a Ponzi… but he can’t answer the simple question of whether or not the bulk of the daily ROI paid out is affiliate money (or make an educated guess with the data he does have, despite repeated requests).
I left a followup comment that was awaiting moderation pointing out the fallacy of so strongly advocating the Zeek Rewards business model wasn’t a simple Ponzi scheme on the sole criteria that the bulk of commissions paid out in the daily ROI is affiliate money, when you “don’t know” if affiliate money makes up the bulk payouts of the daily ROI – but this seems to have disappeared (the comment was awaiting moderation after I left it).
I also requested an educated guess/opinion which I never got to the question (rather I only got an answer to a question I never asked).
All evidence points to a majority daily ROI being paid out using affiliate money (lack of retail customers, daily auction revenue not even coming close to the RPP payouts being reported)… Dooly can’t or refuses to confirm this yet so staunchly proclaims it’s not a Ponzi scheme.
Personally I’m not interested in anecdotal “feelings” or “beliefs”, the definition of a Ponzi scheme is very specific and simple to apply to Zeek’s business model. The critical point being that question I didn’t get an answer to, is the bulk of the daily ROI paid out affiliate money or not?
People are running around claiming they’re “making” thousands of dollars a week with a few going further and insisting that this is what they’re actually withdrawing, and you’re going to tell me the bulk of this money isn’t being paid out from the money countless schmucks throwing down as their Zeek Rewards investment principal, on the pipedream they’re going to be able to retire on infinity returns within a few years?
Mathematically and logically, this is pure nonsense.
^^ Bravo. Well said all the way around.
In time we will review these conversations between “the critics” and Troy Dooly and the entire credibility of the “MLM advocate industry” (despite how small it is now) will change.
Also, many would be new MLM initiates will sour on the direct selling industry altogether because of Zeek, but that’s another topic altogether.
There may be direct commission, but there’s no proof they comprise a large portion of an affiliate’s income.
Furthermore, if you get commission from someone ELSE’s attempt to buy “items” to qualify for payout (not for self-consumption), then *that* in itself is “inventory loading”.
You *could* say that Zeek’s innovation is they invented a way to explain away “inventory loading” by rephrasing it as “giveaway”.
Troy Dooly has committed several reasoning errors, by answering the wrong question.
Here’s Skeptoid’s Brian Dunning explaining the 4 types of reasoning errors. Answering the wrong question is type 3.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4297
The most dangerous type is type 4: asking the wrong question. It is almost always deliberate, and could be considered fraud.
Good job Oz & e. It took some hard and sustained pounding but you guys finally penned Troy down and he had to cough up a couple of answers.
Some of the newcomers on the blog fired off some good hard questions, but Troy just sloughed them off. He told them that ‘somewhere on the site’ he had answered the questions before. He did not answer those guy’s questions directly.
It is vividly apparent that if you give Troy an inch of room, he will wiggle around direct questions and not answer. I understand his position. He has become too close to/with the Zeek crew, has a NDA with them, and has to straddle the fence very carefully while answering questions. Evasive or obfuscate might be a better words.
But, it is so obvious that he refuses to come clean with answers. That is unless he is being pressured hard and knows that the questioners know exactly what is going on and he has no choice left but to answer.
Troy is also falling behind on his promises to deliver news when he said he would. He is becoming like Zeek in that regard. News releases are far and few between. And most often, are a muddled, rambling dialog that leaves the reader with more questions than answers.
Also, the use of “Growing pains” & “Soon” have become so numbing. That is not news, those are excuses from a leadership group that are in over there heads.
I feel like we did finally get some questions answered today by way of some excellent hard pressing journalism, critics and very concerned affiliates. Again, good job to all.
All & all, it was a very good day on the blogs nailing down some of the mystery around Zeek.
Just listened to the entire Troy Dooly’s update. It’s a bit of “meh”. He even called “ZeekSquad” anti-fraud when it’s a vigilante compliance team that goes after non-compliant Zeek-heads.
It seems to me that Zeek’s just feeding him good news just enough to string him along. Arrest of ONE guy who *may* have passed a bad check to Zeek? We don’t know the whole story. He could be a victim of those “check-cashing” scams or “I’ll buy your item but you go cash this check” scam.
Why walk into Zeek office when he could have mailed it or such? I have my doubts. I *could* be exactly as Troy said: check fraud, but I’ll reserve my judgment until I see more info.
@e — I think you’re coming on too strong and you put him on the defensive too soon. IMHO, of course.
Interesting note about Montana from Troy though. He claim it’s a domestication issue.
However, Montana business entity search reveals nothing about Zeek or Rex Venture. Domesticated corp would have shown up.
I don’t know where he’s getting that info.
https://app.mt.gov/bes/
@e – I concur with kchang here. Some of your statements contain hyperbole such as “there are no retail customers” and that will immediately put Troy on the defensive.
The questions should be a little more nuanced if you were trying to get a serious answer from Troy rather than looking like what they call “Zeek haters” over there:
– “There are few genuine retail penny auction customers who aren’t connected to an affiliate for matching VIP points”
– “Genuine retail penny auction customers are extremely unlikely to be repeat customers if you compare Zeekler to the other top 10 penny auction sites – Zeekler has fewer auctions, less prizes, less transparency (buy it now), and many more hassles to pay (credit card processing rarely works) and get paid.”
– “Zeekler penny auction volume has been almost unchanged the last 3 months vs. the 3 months prior… so how can the penny auction revenue support the daily profit share”
FWIW, RVG / Zeek went to BBB and fixed up their rating. It used to be F, it’s now “no rating”. 26 complaints fixed with in last 12 months, usually within last 3 months actually, according to the log.
There are two possibilities that I can see (I’m sure there’s more)
1) People gone to BBB and complained, then BBB got involved and Zeek jumped up and took notice
2) Zeek “manufactured” the complaints and solved them, thus artificially created all these “solved incidents” and inflated their “closed” ratio thus erasing their F rating.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
If the issue is about registering to do business in Montana, that shouldn’t have taken 2 months.
Perhaps the issue is a little deeper than that… in order to register you have to file an Annual Report which may require Zeek to reveal “real financial data” that revenue that they can’t just fudge (i.e. recyclable revenue) like they could as a private company.
There is still a built-in cultish feedback loop that prevents true complaints to be filed. Since many affiliates or penny auction customers still hope to be paid by Zeek, it puts them at higher risk to not be paid if they raise a ruckus. So you have fewer complaints filed.
Also, would this mean that those Zeek defenders who say that BBB is a scam and it’s pay-to-play and it’s worthless are now proven wrong? Obviously it’s worth something for Zeek to deal with it.
@e / @Jimmy — The way I found to deal with people who can’t argue consistently is to solicit opinion from him, then find inconsistencies of his opinion, AND opinions of his closest trusted allies, and see how he responds to that.
My strategy is to not waste any time on people with weird theories. One of the theories was that most of the retail and VIP bids in auctions was bought by free affiliates, not qualified for commissions and matching VIP points.
He also had weird theories for the banning of 6 countries. I realised already then I only wasted my time.
If I define it from an opposite direction, some questions are meaningless to ask to some people, making it become my own responsibilty to avoid certain questions to some people.
I don’t use this strategy very often, only if people repeatedly answer the wrong questions, something I never have asked about
The IRS Whistleblower Office pays money to people who blow the whistle on persons who fail to pay the tax that they owe.
If the IRS uses information provided by the whistleblower, it can award the whistleblower up to 30 percent of the additional tax, penalty and other amounts it collects.
http://www.irs.gov/compliance/article/0,,id=180171,00.html
Kchang:
“@e — I think you’re coming on too strong and you put him on the defensive too soon. IMHO, of course.”
Yes, I know. Thanks for the advice (and Jimmy). I’ve been communicating with Troy via email. We’re on more professional ground now.
It’s also interesting that none of the Zeekheads debating me on my hubpages hub is cognizant of the fact that BBB rating changed. 😉
Troy wanted to deny my explanation of how the business if pitched. Here’a former colleague’s Facebook post:
“I can’t believe how much our business is exploding now. Watching our account grow. We have a very excited team! Do you want to join. Two minutes. Place one ad a day. Get paid! No freakin way! This is unbelievable! Work for two minutes. Get paid. And plenty of time to have fun! Who’s in? Send me a message I’ll get you started. It’s a no- brainer!”
This is purely my opinion…but I believe a very strong indicator of a ponzi scheme is those people in network marketing that failed miserably all the sudden become instant successes…suspicious. This guy couldn’t build a real network if is life depended on it, same with so many of my other friends. Yes, this individual is probably earning a couple grand a week. Why? Just as he says…all I do is invest money and place an Ad a day.
I’m not sure how one exactly fails in Zeek? Not place their ad? Not bring a few investors to the table? Only come in with $10?
What happens to the investors if Zeek is proven to be a Ponzi?
Zeek doesn’t want to share info with us anymore. Zeek news is down.
They had a change of plan, now its back up
Zeek news could be down for week or two and we might not miss a thing.
The question would then be when it does comes back up, “Is there any news or is it just the same old History?” The news from Zeek is slow coming!
Did the Zeek Rewards support forum ever come back up? I never heard if it came back up.
Yes, it did, as soon as payments started hitting around 7/9.
Still lots of issues on payments but Zeek seems to be paying (not that payment is proof that it is not a scam).
There still seems to be various delays with NxPay and STP suggesting there may be some “recyclable cash” issues.
Troy let the comment through, but haven’t seen a response yet.
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/zeek-rewards-update-covering-the-most-of-current-developments-including-the-arrest-of-dung-xuan-nguyen-yesterday/#comment-60388
@Jimmy
Here’s something of interest for you, for a system similar to ZeekRewards, with 10% and 5% commission to upline for reinvestments. It will make you very popular both for upline and downline, if the scheme lasts long enough.
Create a spreadsheet for Zeekrewards, with a style after your own choice, but you will need the following columns:
* Percentage for the daily ROI (set it to 1.5%)
* VIP balance
* Daily RPP
* (Forget withdrawal, but have it as an empty column if you wish)
* Bids retired
* (all the calculations needed for the daily RPP, retiring of bids, etc.)
* 10% commission (what you generate to your sponsor)
* 10% commission accumulated
* 5% commission (to your sponsor’s sponsor)
* 5% commission accumulated
Basically it’s a normal spreadsheet for ZR, but I have only disabled withdrawals and have added commissions. Extend the spreadsheet to 1000 days or so, like most optimists will do. Initial investment $10,000, like most optimists. 🙂
This time, don’t focus on the money you have been able to withdraw, since I sat that number to ZERO on purpose. Focus on your VIP balance, daily reinvestments and what you have generated in commissions to your upline (after month 3, 6, 9, 12, etc.), and compare it to the normal “3-6 months at 100% reinvestment, then follow an 80/20 plan”, or to the plan “generate 50K, then start to withdraw 20%”.
The problem here is that you haven’t been able to withdraw any money in the period, but that solution will follow later.
Post the accumulated 10% commission for day 400 when you’re finished, so I can check if we have relatively similar results?
Two somewhat related comments:
1) According to Rod Cook, MLM Watchdog, it takes at least 20 complaints, usually at BBB and AG’s office, to get an investigation started. 20 is the usual tipping point.
2) Troy again claimed that nobody in the 6 banned countries were “ripped off”.
Combine the two, and maybe we should list the NC AG’s office address so people in foreign countries can send in their complaints. 😉 Link to Rod Cook’s website about that complaint form to give them a head start.
Did Troy address the issue of no compensation for net present value of VIP point balances?
Seem like you are praying for zeek to fail. Why don’t you send the complaints yourself.
More like praying for answers.
This discussion would be over in a matter of days if ZeekDorks just answered some flippin questions they are very simple questions and would silence the critics end of discussion.
We all know that will never happen….
Why? I’ll let you be the judge of that 🙂
Why? We’re not the ones who did a whole year’s work and got nothing to show for it.
As Troy Dooly appointed himself as the chief communicator for Zeek, and he insisted nobody was “ripped off” (i.e. there was no problem), clearly, there is no problem on THEIR end. Thus, appeal to higher authorities, but that’d be up to the individual “alleged victims”.
As Morpheus said, “I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it.”
Hey Jerise, I’m praying for Zeek rewards to fail. Ponzi’s hurt a lot of people. Maybe you should join me in prayer.
Lot’s of fun Facebook activity going on at zeek, like this:
A follow up post from her said that yes Zeek confirmed that deduction was from them. South Korea huh?
I thought Troy Dooly said the banking issues were resolved many weeks ago?
Zeek can’t continue to operate like the shady gambling operators using different third party credit card processors in countries with lax compliance laws. How does THAT not hit your scam/high-risk radar (in addition to everything else)?
So how does the money trail work from Global Kamba to the 3 e-wallets? At least her bank is smart enough to recognize something fishy.
I guess Troy meant they were resolved by going to South Korea!
By the way, that lady’s post isn’t from weeks ago either…it’s just a few hours old.
Interesting Dialouge at mlmhelpdesk…I actually got Troy scratching his head on this one:
From Connie:
I too have read the above comments with great interest.
I joined Zeek about 7 months ago and am impressed with their integrity and business plan
They have had huge issues with growth but have communicated with the affiliates at all times and issues are resolved as speedily as possible.
I am a nurse in my 60′s and had almost given up hope of being able to retire and do the things I’m really passionate about.
I now draw $4000 plus every week and can dream about the possibilites in my life rather than the problems.
I put in a lot less than $10,000 but have built a downline of 170 and all of these people are as excited as I am.
I am very grateful to this company for the opportunities they have given me and the future that is so very different from that of just 7 months ago.
From e:
Wow Connie. $4000 a week with a group of 170 is unheard of in network marketing, and you did it in 7 months. 170 isn’t impressive for 7 months, but $4000 a week is. Doesn’t really seem like one can fail in Zeek.
Advice…don’t live like you’re earning $4000/week. Save, save, save. You never know what’s around the corner.
From Troy:
@e, I have to agree with you on this one. a group of 170 and cashing flowing $4K per week each and ever week is somewhat unbelievable. Not saying anyone is lying, but over the years I just have not seen this type of huge weekly payout.
For the record, when I hit $4000 a week in network marketing, my sales organization was doing around $35,000 a week, every week, in volume. I can tell you I had a lot more than 170 people.
@e
Lol well this is zeek we are talking about the wonderland where maths doesn’t count for anything a wink and a nudge from the “positive” team leaders who answer legitimate questions with “your just being negative” and everyone is farting unicorns and rainbows.
When has this ever happened? When the support forums were open to the public, I saw A LOT of affiliates complaining about Zeek’s lack of communication and issues going unresolved for months. Remember when they weren’t paying on won auctions for about four months?
No she must have conveniently forgotten like most other cheerleaders for zeek promoting the “investment”
Send me a screenshot of that screen if you can. I don’t use Facebook. 😉 Or post it on IMGUR.com
(sarcasm on)
Ah, but she didn’t experience any problems, and she has HEARD that any problems are resolved swiftly! She has no reason to doubt the company!
(sarcasm off)
Here you go KChang, Facebook screen shot about South Korean Bank: http://imgur.com/TM7QU
I’m more interested in how Troy is going to follow up on Connie’s post about how one can earn $4000/week with 170 people. Him admitting it’s fishy is a big deal for Troy to say on his own blog.
Facebook is rich with complaints and “growing pains”. I’ve heard about growing pains so much , I’m expecting Kirk Cameron to show up.
*snerk*
OK, that made me laugh!
Yeah, I know…cheesy! 🙂
Updated my hub, though I nuked all the names and photos. Thanks, e.
This is second or third time Korea’s been mentioned. Previously we had Panama, Malta, Cyprus, and Costa Rica. Wonder what country’s gonna pop up next?
Oz, maybe you ought to write an article: who is Zeek’s credit card processor, what games are they playing, and what are the risks to all US affiliates?
The Zeeker who tried to talk me into this scheme (I have not join and will not) tried to tell me that Zeeks new business oppurtunity it that it will soon have its own credit card. Does any one know any thing about that?
A note about using Payza for your Zeek transactions. First, I can’t wait to get OUT of Zeek. After waiting two weeks for my “reward” to be processed by Zeek I requested a check from Payza (mainly because their processeors are so bad they can’t wire the money into my account, and two, I don’t believe in paying another $15 for MY money).
Their website claims checks are processed in 1-2 days. A week later my check is still “Pending” from Payza. That of course is after they take $15-20 off the top from Zeek, and then want to charge you another $15 for a transfer into your bank account if you choose to do it electronically. What a total crock.
I wonder where they find these payment processors. Yet another reason to stay AWAY from Zeek, folks.
@Alan – don’t forget the hefty fee you pay to receive your money, before other withdrawal fees. If you do a bank transfer from Payza and need it in USD, you will pay another fee for forex transfer from Sterling, not to mention the bank wire fee itself from Payza.
@e – Maybe Troy will finally wise up that this is a Ponzi. With only 20 recruits at $5k to $10k each, plus your own $10k initial investment, you can hit $4k weekly payouts in a few months.
You get compound interest not just on your point balance, but 10% of ever increasing interest on your recruits, 5% on theirs, etc. There are many more fantastic stories than Connie’s! As I keep advising all analysts, pro or con, “follow the money”.
I think I found the perfect counter-argument for those who insist that Alexa ranking somehow legitimizes ZeekRewards or Zeekler…
Just point them here:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thepiratebay.se
Clearly illegal (well, depends on how you view copyright) but ranks 83 in the world. 🙂
One more reason popularity is not legality.
If they were illegal, the authorities would have shut them down by now. 🙂
Popularity also not equal to profitability.
Zeek Rewards Alexa rankings are skewed based on volume outside the US. Some artificial rank inflation?
Take away the forced daily ad postings and rankings tank. They will start dropping soon when the free affiliates in it for the bonus points bail not wanting to pay $30 annually for the mandated video marketing and compliance course.
How many of these hundreds of thousands of free affiliates are just in it for the “free money”?
The more complaints filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Federal Trade Commission, and the North Carolina Department of Justice, the more likely we can find out the truth behind Zeek Rewards.
@Kasey
Not enough to go on at the moment I think. Different company names seem to be popping up every week and the company is keeping quiet on confirming anything.
Playing Processor Round-Robin is in itself a pattern, right? 🙂
Here’s a funny…now Zeek wants members to vote for it as the #1 Direct Sales Company in the World, LOL!!!
I make money with Zeek every single day. However, voting for this company with the daily IT problems, the problems of getting paid, the fact I can’t even get paid until I pay a THIRD party to get my check and the rest of the things one can read here does not provide me with any reason to vote for this company.
They are a great example of a company that simply can’t get its s— together; doesn’t communicate honestly with members; and quite honestly doesn’t seem to care about open communication.
Vote them the #1 Direct sales company? Are you kidding? I mean, really.
The point in that spreadsheet was that both yourself, your upline and your downline could have an income-source that will be doubled every 100 day, if the downline work as a team. It’s possible to become a top income earner with only a few people in your downline.
The method can be used if you expect a scheme like Zeek to last for more than a year. The longer it lasts the better this method will be, but the method is rather slow in the beginning.
THE METHOD:
1. Make an agreement with your upline, both the 5% and 10% sponsor’s. “I’m willing to produce a huge commission for you, if you pay half of it back to me. I will also make the same agreement with my downline, paying them back half of the commission they generate up to me.”
2. Make the similar agreement with your downline. “You can get half of the commission paid back to you, if you’re willing to generate a huge commission.”
3. Find solutions to solve some practical problems related to this method, like how to solve too many transactions between the people involved. We have also some potential tax problems here that needs to be solved.
4. Multiply the method, having a few people in your downline using the same method.
5. When this method is used, use only the commissions to support payouts, and let the VIP balance continue to grow 100% per 100 day.
THE MATH:
With a normal plan “reinvest for 3 or 6 months, then follow an 80/20 plan”, the VIP balance will only grow slowly when people starts to withdraw money. And so will the payouts and the commissions. To make it grow faster, you’ll have to recruit more people in your downline or reinvest more money.
A plan that doubles the VIP balance will be slow in the beginning, but it will definitely PAY if the scheme lasts long enough.
The following numbers will show the accumulated amount paid back to you from the commission you generate to your upline, in the format “after week #” + your 50% of the commission you have generated. Your upline will get 2/3 and 1/3 of that amount, they too.
013 2,800
026 7,200
039 15,300
052 30,000
065 60,000
078 115,000
091 218,500
104 413,400
117 780,300
130 1,147,000
So in month 1-3 you will only earn $2,800
in month 4-6 you will earn 7,200-2,800 = $4,400
in month 7-9 you will earn $8,100,
in month 10-12 you will earn $14,600
in month 13-15 you will earn $30,000
in month 16-18 you will earn $55,000
in month 19-21 you will earn $103,500
in month 22-24 you will earn $194,900
in month 25-27 you will earn $366,900
in month 28-30 you will earn $769,700, from the commissions generated by yourself to your upline, so you can add some income from your downline too. But you can’t have too much people in your downline here using the same system.
The scheme needs to last for more than 15 months, before a method like this can be cosidered to be very useful. And people will start to react if you push it too far, becoming the top income earner with only a tiny downline.
I just go off the phone with the Federal Trade Commission and they said they need to see a pattern of complaints before they take any action. They also referred me to the North Carolina Department of Justice for their local jurisdiction.
If someone really believes Zeek Rewards is a ponzi or pyramid scheme, then file a complaint. It is not hard and it takes about 10-15 minutes. If Zeek Rewards is compliant with federal and state laws, then they would welcome an investigation. It would be the best marketing material they ever received and would silence all of the critics.
This is something to consider if you truly believe Zeek Rewards is a scam. I do not think anyone should play games to disrupt a business otherwise.
Catch 22…nobody’s going to complain while there making the easy money. Who would…place an ad a day and earn 20K/week. It will take zeek members getting fed up with all the problems and excuses to start complaining, or, like Brad suggest’s we do.
Basically the FTC is saying…we need a bunch of people to get burned before we do anything…that’s intelligent.
I’ve already submitted my complaint. I suggest the rest of you do also, unless this is just entertainment.
I did on June 21st to the FTC, NC DOJ, and the SEC. I have family and friends in Zeek Rewards that could get hurt. Unfortunately this is not the first time I have seen this movie.
@Brad, made the *same* answer to you over at PatrickPretty.com. Your cut-and-paste is pretty good.
Contacted the SEC by their online form and made a complaint a few weeks ago. They’ve been told so it’s on their bat partly now.
Just got to ask why would some of you put your money in, then trying to get them shut down when they are paying out commissions, and hasnt stole anything from anybody?
When was the last time any of you affiliates out there have been paid cash via an e-wallet?
My wife is an affiliate and hasnt been paid since late June and is waiting on money just like some of you. She keeps getting delayed messages from Payza which we are now 3 weeks waiting so we switched from bank transfer to check hopeing to see the money.
It’s interesting that I’ve gotten a “friendly warning” on my hub, that maybe I should be careful as some crazy Zeekheads may visit San Francisco and do me harm. 😉
Update: just received a check from payza. (the first of many) If anyone is using the bank transfer option from payza be weary, i did this option for over a month and I never received any money.
Switched it from bank transfer to check and got my money in 2.5 weeks. Once the “pending” status switches to “complete”, I received the money 7 days after that.
K Chang, that guy would be making a big mistake to mess with you. Doesn’t he realize all asians know kung fu. 🙂
@e — but this is truly gone Mafia… “Nice family, would be a shame if anything happened to it. Right, Luigi?”
But then, San Francisco is a huge city. 🙂
LOL
K Chang, I have a long response on Patrick’s website.
Thank you for the clarification. It is sometimes difficult to ascertain intentions over the Internet through a couple words.
Hello K. Chang,
Please contact me by email and provide a link to this “friendly warning.” I may wish to do a story about it or make a reference to it in an upcoming story.
Thanks.
PPBlog
Hello I can verify I have not been paid for two weeks now through them i have requested payment to be received on 7/9and 7/16 nothing has been sent from Zeek.
There’re two weeks behind in paying me I sent them an email nothing hear back from them so I can verify and I also been in it for six months and now have not been paid.
I knew it was too good to be true is just sad to all thos think they can quit there real jobs when this is just a sinking ship. even if u take it all out there not paying a few if there not still recruiting more to the scheme.
BehindMLM is an MLM review site, not a scam investigating site, anti-scam forum, MLM watchdog or anything similar. The typical market is people researching an opportunity for themselves or for others, whether they want to join it, avoid it, are currently in it or whatever.
It’s NOT designed for the typical MLM “true believers”, but for a more ordinary audience.
The wide range of audience will make it meaningless to actively fight against a company, in other ways than to share information with the audience. A wide range of audience will also mean a wide range of motives.
We have lots of readers currently in Zeek, wanting to get their initial investments back, hoping it will last long enough to get their money back. We will usually NOT try to reduce their chances, but we won’t increase them either by recommending others to join.
What the individual reader will do must be up to them. People wanting to fight a company will probably find something of interest, but so will people wanting to defend a company, too. Negative information about something isn’t a problem for experienced people, it will first become a problem if they don’t know how to handle it.
Why we call Zeek a Ponzi scheme? Because all information points in that direction, and have done it since I read the first articles and started to ask questions to affiliates.
Why don’t we do anything about it? We do what we are meant to do = sharing information, and providing a platform for doing it.
You didn’t ASK FOR the spreadsheet example at Troy Dooly’s place, it was DELIVERED to you. You asked Troy to verify the examples you had heard from other affiliates – “$10,000 can grow to between $100,000 and $1 million within a year”.
Troy’s not a spreadsheet guy, so you would probably only receive some vague information from him. You can ask him about lots of other things within his own field of expertise (whatever that might be?).
First I told about the data from the spreadsheet, roughly calculated instead of extending the spreadsheet in the first place. Then I told you about the METHOD, in case you wanted to check the method and data yourself.
And then I triggered some arguments against the method, “how impossible it is for people to set up a budget, because of all the things they can’t know about the future”.
So all in all, you have probably got a more meaningful answer than Troy could be able to deliver. Troy probably can’t set up a meaningful budget, but I can — because of different mindset.
The daily profit share is probably made out of thin air, NOT calculated from any revenue minus expenses. The profit share has never been affected by down-times on the website, high end auctions or anything else.
I’ll guess you could disable Zeekler completely, and the profit share would still be the same (until the management recognizes it, and make changes to make it look less suspicious).
All Ponzi schemes have had made up stories about how the profit is generated, so I don’t think we should believe Zeek’s story. We can use mathematics to TEST how believable the story is, buth the math will never make any sense. So people trying to use math will end up with “#ERROR”.
Most Recent Fun Facebook Post from Zeek members:
M_Norway –
I was not referring to you about the spread sheet projections, but I see how you might think that. I do apologize. I was specifically referring to Troy.
With the compensation plan as important as it is the information should be crystal clear to everyone, especially someone so close to Zeek leadership.
At the end of the day I do not want to see people get scammed. That is my motive. When some in my family and friends got involved with Zeek, they asked me to look into it.
For me personally I can only learn, read, and post thoughts for so long until I need to make a decision on what to do about it. That decision for me was to file a complaint with the proper authorities.
If the company is legit, then there are a lot of people who should be wealthy. If the company is a scam, then I would like to see it shut down ASAP. If Zeek has their house in order, then they would welcome the chance to prove themselves.
Finally, I would not have known what I do today with this community and others, which I am grateful. I thank you all for your hard work and dedication.
@PPBlog — all the comments are published on my hub:
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Analyzing-ZeekRewards-is-it-a-legal-and-viable-business-and-can-it-provide-long-term-income-for-you
Simply scroll to the end and scroll back.
There’s one from “fry” that starts with “watch yourself”
You have to scroll WAY back, to about 10 days ago, from a guy posting as “kschangsucks”, where he stated “smh i hope some one goes psycho on you and we see you on 5 o’clock news, internet bumb victim of homicide… ”
No outright threat, but the pattern of thuggery is disturbing to say the least. I can see their IP addresses, but I’m not making them public yet.
There’s another guy who posted some guy’s resume that shared same last name as I, and claim it’s mine. I imagine that guy is getting harassed now.
Hi all,
Just a quick note to express my gratitude for the site and contributions. I’ve been hounded by my brother for the past couple of months to join “Zeek,” this same brother has been unsuccessfull in numerous other MLMs, and has been burned in the past by HYIPs and “chain letters,” and cannot seem to see how this Ponzi model / scheme will eventually become too big to continue.
Sad, but I cannot and will not risk any time or money when I can hear the music winding down and chairs being removed for when the music stops.
Thanks again!
–T Sharp
That is a sensible decision mate, maybe a year ago you would have been fine, certainly not now. The figures probably exceed the global economy lol.
I know a lot of people close to me are like this in fact my mother got my uncle to put 2000 in the other day. Has caused divided opinion to say the least.
I bet a year from now you will scratch your heead and say the same thing. happen all the time.
@sunrise –
Perhaps you should give your advice to the victims of Ad Surf Daily and Bernie Madoff.
Lol even if it is still standing which I highly doubt I seriously doubt anyone will be getting paid. I don’t regret my comment in any way shape or form.
Doesn’t require someone to be a member of mensa to analyze the math and since figures and questions aren’t released or answered by zeek there is no reason for the critics to be silenced.
But we all know the reason for their silence don’t we…wink wink nudge nudge.
Curious if someone transfer funds to your e wallet
Is that consider income to the reciver and subject to paying taxes
Hi,
I was looking to join Zeek a friend of mine has told me the great payout system.
Should i join after reading these comments it seems like i should not join.
please give me some insight. Will i be getting paid out if i invest 5000 from the start.
@Krish
Whether you join or not is entirely up to you.
whats your opinion though
My opinion is whether you join or not is entirely up to you.
@Krish – Since I’m cashing out and still have a few weeks to go, and since the money I withdraw has to come from somewhere, my opinion is that you should definitely join. Soon.
So you def. believe that the money is being circled amongst the new people that come in? So you think the website does not profit anything is what you are saying.
not what he is saying at all. Try reading it.
Looks like I was spot on with this. According to the SEC, Zeek was on the brink of collapse in July & August, so I’m betting in June or earlier they were having trouble moving enough money around.
I wonder how much LOL’ing John and his downline are doing these days?
Well..dawn (small d) the sky finally fell on ya..I personally hope we never see this woman back in any form of business online pedalling her trash.
She may have her supporters but she does not have one here. She treated small affiliates with distain through her arrogance torwards them with such comments “oh the sky is falling” whenever there were detractors or people seeking resolution to questions she could not answer.
Bye Bye dawn