Lyoness 2012 Income Disclosure Statement analysis
The BehindMLM review of Lyoness (US) was written just over a year ago on the 5th of May 2012. Since publication of the review, over 1000 comments have thus far been left with the resulting discussion being largely cyclical in nature.
Typically a Lyoness affiliate reads the review and then proceeds to leave a long-winded comment “educating” myself and readers on the merits of the Lyoness merchant shopping network.
When it’s pointed out that comparatively this pays peanuts to the Account Unit investment scheme, what then follows is either justification of the scheme on the promise of future shopping (which it is argued will one day eclipse AU investment scheme revenue), or claims that merchant shopping generates the bulk of revenue within Lyoness.
Given the absence of proof other than the mere noted existence of customers, this claim naturally fails to hold up to scrutiny.
At this point the Lyoness affiliate either disappears or admits the AU investment scheme is problematic, but chooses to ignore it and focus on the merits of the merchant shopping network instead.
A few weeks/months after this, another Lyoness affiliate stumbles across the review and the process repeats itself.
1038 comments later and to date nobody has been able to justify or explain how the affiliate-funded accounting unit investment scheme is not just a Ponzi scheme with an attached shopping network.
Lyoness recently released their 2012 Income Disclosure Statement (IDS) which, not surprisingly, only raises more concerns and questions about the company’s business model and compensation plan.
For reasons unknown, if I try to access the Lyoness Income Disclosure Statement from a non-US ip address, I find myself receiving a 403 HTTP error advising me I’m “forbidden” from accessing it:
Additionally the Lyoness IDS Policy document states,
copies of the IDS may be printed or downloaded without charge from the corporate website at www.lyoness.us/IDS
But if I try to visit that link (from outside of the US) I just get redirected to the Lyoness US website homepage.
I don’t know what the story is there, given that the IDS is readily viewable from anywhere in the world via Google cache. If Lyoness are attempting to exert control over who can and can’t view the IDS it would seem to be a rather pointless exercise.
With that out of the way, the first thing that should jump out at you when looking at the IDS is the revelation that 86.16% of all Lyoness affiliates are not affiliates (great!), but only generated an average annual cashback of $12.95 (not so great).
Mind you, that’s an average calculated by Lyoness that totally ignores shoppers who didn’t receive any cashback, which the company states is 46% of all “members” (affiliates and customers).
So much for all the crap from Lyoness affiliates about the value the merchant shopping network provides.
Customer wise 46% of shoppers receiving no cashback and the other 54% generating only an average $12.95 a year would hardly justify membership to the company. And when considered comparatively to other cashback schemes, provides a poor basis for any “value to the customer” assertions.
Of the 54% who made anything with Lyoness, the average across affiliates and shoppers was $524.65, with a median of $6 – meaning 50% of the 54% made $6 or less in total (cashback or affiliate commissions) for 2012.
One thing I noticed is that figures relating to the AU investment scheme might even be completely absent from the IDS, with Lyoness stating that
A Member is defined as someone who executed a Member Agreement, and made at least one purchase through the Lyoness LoyaltyMerchant Network.
If I sign up to Lyoness as an affiliate, invest my money in AUs, recruit new affiliates who do the same and eventually generate enough new investments do receive my >100% ROI – which I then re-invest in more AUs to generate even higher returns, technically I’m not buying anything from the merchant shopping network.
In addition to my >100% cash ROI, gift cards are issued which are supposed to be used within the shopping network by myself – but I can do what I want with these (throw them in the bin, use them to lure in new investors etc).
If I was treating Lyoness as an investment scheme, it makes little sense to use the giftcards myself. Thus as I haven’t made a purchase within the merchant shopping network, my ROIs would not be included in the IDS.
At least that’s how I’m reading it.
Furthermore Lyoness are defining affiliates as
a Member who signs up four (4) direct Members that have each made a purchase at any store within the Lyoness Loyalty Merchant Network.
Does that mean the revenue generated by affiliates who don’t recruit shoppers and just focus on the AU investment scheme, even if they make purchases themselves within the merchant shopping network are also absent?
If so, the 2012 IDS is hardly an accurate portrayal of the revenue or incomes generated through Lyoness, given that the vast majority of affiliates generating large incomes with Lyoness do so via participation in the AU investment scheme (in 1088 comments of discussion with Lyoness affiliates this has not been disputed).
I tried to calculate the total affiliate/shopper amounts but with the information provided that doesn’t seem possible.
Lyoness do state that 22,374 members (affiliates and customers) were active at the end of the year, however you can’t use these percentages to reverse-calculate the affiliate/shopper base as
- the percentage totals first exclude certain groups (AU investors who don’t shop and affiliates who don’t recruit) and
- Lyoness state that ‘during 2012, approximately 25% of all Members did not continue with Lyoness after their first year‘.
We have member figures for the end of the year however the percentages are for the entire year, during which 25% of members quit the company throwing of any calculations.
One final point of interest is the revelation that
based on a survey conducted by Lyoness in 2012, the average annual expenses anIBR incurs are $1,294.44.
Ignoring affiliates that may be excluded from revenue calculations, of those included, 94.1% (the first affiliate bracket) of all affiliates earnt an average annual income less than that of the average annual advetising expenses incurred (a difference of -$524.78).
Given the astronomical figures required to generate the hundreds of thousands of dollars of income Lyoness’ top affiliates are generating (at least those whose income qualify to appear on the IDS), it’s quite obvious that there’s a lot of AU investment going on at the top-end of the company.
At the end of the day there’s only so many shoppers per affiliate to generate AUs, with the money thus having to be sourced from affiliates plonking down their money under guise of downpayments, expecting a >100% cash ROI to be paid out once enough new investments have been made after their own.
I know we’ll never see it (at least not from Lyoness) but what would be of far more use from an analytic perspective would be a clear breakdown of revenues generated from all shoppers vs. that of affiliates (total revenues, AU investments and all).
A break down of revenue in the form of AUs (shopping-generated and those created by direct affiliate investment and re-investment) would also prove useful, as I suspect it would reveal a complete dwarfing of the merchant shopping network by the AU investment scheme (remember we’d be comparing the cashback, not the total amount spent at merchants by customers as this has nothing to do with Lyoness).
Still, kudos to Lyoness for providing some insight into some of the income generation happening inside the business. It’s more than most MLM companies tend to bother with and for that they deserve some level of recognition.
I can not see that there is one speck of company revenue reported here. Its all company expenses; specifically, the expenses of cashbacks and commissions paid by the company to Shoppers-Non IBRs and to seven tiers of IBRs.
It clearly shows that shoppers-non IBRs constitute very little proportion of the companies cashback/commisions expense. Shall we conclude that this means there is very little retail shopping being done(?) or simply that the cost to the company of shopping cashbacks is negligible? I do not know.
I am not much with double entry accounting but this Income Disclosure Statement (minus footnotes) appears to be derived from two sub accounts of the Companies’ total expense ledger (i.e., the subaccounts of commissions paid and cashback expenses)
It shows the IBRs how much income THEY received (that’s why its called an Income Disclosure Statement) but this has nothing to do with company income.
This is not a profit/loss sheet. Its a document generated to motivate the IBRs who can see the daily work load and higher income of the tiers just above them. Its a motivational tool not a disclosure in any real sense. Its one sided, i.e., the income the IBRs received.
Can someone simplify it and not just say it’s a Ponzi. I always get lost in Hosstein’s comments.
Technically it is illegal Pyramid. In Ponzi you are not required (although strongly encouraged) to recruit.
I wish I could be clearer. The IDS looks at things from the “income received by the affiliates point of view,” and as such it reveals very little about the company itself.
The IDS is what is known as a special report. It has a limited purpose and provides a quick snapshot picture of US affiliate compensation but its nothing close to the whole picture.
Oz has mentioned the difficulties in interpreting the information. I concur. Without knowing the size and sources of revenue there is not enough information.
So the IDS is just a smoke screen ? This would make sense.
That’s correct. It’s heavily dependant on recruitment. That became even more visible in the IDS. But even the Austrian newspaper used BOTH “pyramid” and “Ponzi” in its description of the Breiteneder lawsuits.
Lyoness has reinvestment options similar to a Ponzi, in that you can reinvest Loyalty Credits and increase the cash payouts (rather than using the Loyalty Credits to buy giftcards).
If you have a huge downline doing the same it will heavily increase cash payouts, but reduce total payouts for a while (until you earn money from the last 6 sections in the compensation plan).
Loyalty Credits is a type of “virtual currency” (if we don’t know anything about other monetary transactions when it’s used or reinvested). Reinvesting virtual currencies is TYPICAL for Ponzi schemes, much more than it is for pyramid schemes.
All-in-all, we ended up on a split decision for whether it is a Ponzi or a pyramid. It’s probably a hybrid between both. But believe me, we HAVE tried to analyse it from different perspectives. 🙂
It’s a hybrid scheme in that you can work it as a pure Ponzi, but you benefit faster if you also recruit (i.e. Pyramid)
It does make sense, if they are hiding the ball. Only Lyoness insiders know for sure.
I view the IDS as a marketing release/motivational tool that uses an “official” tabulation to show the IBRs that there is money to be made in the Lyoness system. See! People are making money! It says so right here! Yay! Recruit! Recruit!….which is fine so long as its a bona fide business that is being recruited for.
Lyoness, as a private company in a competetive marketplace is under no compulsion to make public any details of their operations. Most, if not all, private companies do not. They report only to the taxing authorities.
Public companies must annually provide full accounting data, including schedules and a profit/loss statements but the same can not be said for privately held companies which may or may not release information as they see fit.
Since the company is under no compulsion to provide information, and yet did so voluntarily, I would conclude they did it to inform and motivate the sales force.
According to a short article penned by Kevin Grimes (of Grimes and Reese) if a company doesn’t provide the income disclosure statement then their sales force are NOT allowed to mention how much they make at recruiting calls or seminars.
(Actually he said it the other way around: sales force are only allowed to mention income levels if it was accompanied by proper company-level disclosure)
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/IncomeClaims.pdf
Very Good. This seems to explain why Lyoness issued the Disclosure and why it contains only what is needed for compliance.
That won’t work if you don’t recruit other investors (or shoppers). You will only S-L-O-W-L-Y generate new units through your own shopping if you don’t have a downline making down payments.
The $3,000 down payment will generate 7+3+3 units …
7 AU in AC1 – you will need minimum 9 other investors
3 AU in AC2 – you will need minimum 19 other investors
3 AU in AC3 – you will need minimum 16 other investors
Your first $12 cash payout comes from 6 of your own 7 units in AC1 (a 3/3 payout), but other small payouts will follow rapidly when new investors in your downline are generating more units.
4 INVESTORS
Recruit 2 new investors, 1 above and 1 below:
Payout $18 + $24 in AC1 (5/5 and 10/10)
Payout $36 in AC2 (3/3)
Payout $120 in AC3 (3/3)
Recruit 2 more investors, 1 above and 1 below:
Payout $36 in AC1 (15/15)
Payout $54 in AC2 (5/5)
Payout $180 in AC3 (5/5)
To make the story shorter, investors will receive MANY small payouts in the beginning each time they recruit new ones. The payouts will increase the more investors they have in their downlines.
It starts to look “profitable” already when they have 4 directly recruited investors, when they receive payouts from AC2 and AC3.
4 + 16 INVESTORS
It will look even better if you have 2 levels of downline = 4 + 16 investors. You and they will have generated (invested in) …
147 units in AC1 (147 Career units), 2 maturity payouts
63 units in AC2¨ (189 Career units), 1 maturity payout
63 units in AC3 (504 Career units), 1 maturity payout
You will have made $2,970 in cash payouts, 5,025 Loyalty Credits (can be reinvested to generate more cash), have earned 18.75% cash bonus from your 4 direct’s payouts, have earned 6.25% from your 16 indirect’s payouts, have reached career level 3 (generates additional payouts for 6 months).
It’s designed to stimulate RECRUITMENT, but also to confuse people. The payouts will increase for each new investor you recruit directly or indirectly into your downline.
You will probably get lost in my comments, too. 🙂
It CANNOT be simplified without making it complicated first, and THEN try to simplify it.
A simplified conclusion points in the direction of a pyramid scheme, because you are mostly being rewarded for introducing other investors into the scheme, from THEIR investments rather than from your own.
The first part of the complicated analysis was here …
In the examples in that post, I focused mostly on the payouts generated DIRECTLY from your OWN recruitment efforts.
Your downline will receive similar cash payouts when they recruit more investors …
LOYALTY COMMISSION BONUS
* 4 direct + 16 indirect gives 18.75% commission bonus from the 4 directly recruited (in ADDITION to the AC payouts they generate for you).
* 4 direct + 16 indirect + 64 third level will give you the 18.75% commission bonus from the 4 directly recruited, plus 6.25% commission bonus from the 16 indirectly recruited ones.
Note:
Loyalty Commission Bonuses will be paid to upline if the investor isn’t “qualified” (have 4+16 in downline, or 4+16+64 for the 6.25% bonus). That means most of the first bonuses will bypass you and be paid to your upline.
This design is TYPICAL for pyramid schemes, but not very common in Ponzi schemes.
CAREER LEVEL
The IDS clearly indicates that the volume of investments in your entire downline is the most important factor (rather than your OWN investments). That’s TYPICAL for pyramid schemes, but less common in Ponzi schemes.
REINVESTING LOYALTY CREDITS
If you are reinvesting the Credits rather than spending them on giftcards, that will generate CASH payouts for you, CASH payouts for people in your downline plus CASH bonuses for you. It will most likely stimulate people in your downline to reinvest their own Credits, generating more CASH payouts for you.
The reinvestment parts here (of potential VIRTUAL currencies) are much more typical for Ponzi schemes than for pyramid schemes.
VIRTUAL CURRENCIES
Different types of “rewards” in different types of “internal accounts” are NOT equal to real money, no matter what you can use it for internally in the system.
It doesn’t matter what people CALL the rewards, whether it’s “Loyalty Credits”, “Loyalty Cash”, “Volume Commission Bonus”, “Accounting Units”, “JubiBucks”, “Lifestyle Dollars”, “VIP Points”, “Cash Available”, “Retail Commission”, “VIP Bids” or whatever. They are all VIRTUAL “rewards” or virtual currencies.
If people can use “Loyalty Credits” to pay for giftcards, that doesn’t make Loyalty Credits become EQUAL to real money.
* Lyoness will have to bring in some real money and pay for the giftcards when people are spending the Credits in that way.
* If people are reinvesting the Loyalty Credits, Lyoness won’t need to bring in any real money. Loyalty Credits –> Accounting Units is a purely VIRTUAL transaction. It will only involve “numbers on a screen” and no real monetary transaction.
Even all the CASH commissions are VIRTUAL until they have been withdrawn as real money
STREAMS OF MONEY
In Lyoness, the most significant part of the money is coming IN from investors. Only a small fraction is coming in from merchants / shopping.
It survives because it doesn’t pay anything OUT if people don’t pay anything IN (directly or indirectly). That’s more typical for pyramid schemes than for Ponzi schemes.
It survives because the investors as a GROUP will have much more money INVESTED in the system than what they potentially can be able to withdraw (much more).
It’s vulnerable to government agencies, e.g. FTC and/or SEC, much more than to individual or Class Action lawsuits.
Hey everyone,
I Googled Lyoness and found this site. Just to give you a quick background on me. I’m a NY’er living in Greece and opened up my own cafe/bar when Lyoness was introduced to me. I affiliated with Lyoness and got my business into the system. It brought new customers to my door every day for two months, then I sold the business.
Long story short I’ve seen Lyoness work and I can’t understand why people think it’s a Ponzi scheme/Pyramid. If you think about it everyday life is a pyramid so I don’t know why anyone would knock the model. I see a pyramid as a hierarchy.
Anyway, let me get to my point. It’s obvious that any business starting out needs investors to get the ball rolling so that is the reason for the investment upfront. If you want to run Lyoness as a business without putting up any money at all YOU CAN DO THAT.
Do you know any other business opportunity you can start without any money? I spent 150,000 Euros and countless hours in my cafe and THAT is a risk.
How many internet companies go thru rounds of millions of dollars of investments and all of a sudden some kid is “worth’ hundreds of millions because investors threw money at him, but his business hasn’t made a penny?
Of course Lyoness needs money to get going, but eventually the shopping will outweigh the investors, as it’s slowly happening in Greece. I try to do most of my shopping thru Lyoness Loyalty merchants and I also try to help build the network so I can benefit by having more Loyalty merchants to go to.
And also, I’ve heard the “it’s super complicated and it’s made that way so you don’t understand” and I find that logical.
If someone came to you 20 years ago and explained to you the intricacies and technicalities of typing something into a “search engine” and you will get millions of answers and eventually it will make billions of dollars and it will be called something funny like Google, you would have walked out of the room.
Anyway, just some thoughts from me… would love to hear some responses…
thanks guys
Steven
@Steven
Here we go again…
1. From where are you pulling this information on Greece from?
2. The “shopping will eclipse investment” does not excuse the running of a Ponzi scheme, nor does it hold any water. Lyoness is a decade old and still is primarily fuelled by the core Ponzi investment business model. Shopping will always be secondary because it pays less per affiliate.
“Internet companies” are irrelevant, we’re specifically discussing an MLM company here.
What this has to do with the simplistic nature of Ponzi schemes is beyond me. Trying to justify a Ponzi scheme on the merit of its complexity is silly.
There simply is no justification for a the Ponzi scheme in operation at Lyoness’ core.
Perhaps you did not experience the Ponzi part. That would explain why you don’t know anything about it, but that doesn’t prove it doesn’t exist.
You seem to be confusing a pyramid SCHEME vs. a hierarchy.
Lyoness is not starting out. It’s been around for over a decade. Your logic is bogus.
So why was the option even offered? Is Lyoness a shopping loyalty program or not? Why does the purchase of units bypass all the shopping?
You find it logical that a company’s business model is so complicated it cannot be adequately explained by its own members, when asked pointed questions?
You’re talking apples and oranges here. One’s about complexity, and the other is about possibility. They are not comparable.
Thanks for the replies! Interesting, but I don’t agree. That’s allowed, isn’t it? lol… Even though I’m on the other side of the table I’m enjoying this, and also let me take a moment to tell you that you have a top notch site. Kudos!
Now my turn…
Are any of you Lyoness members? Have you tried working the system? The whole point is to develop a shopping community where you can eventually get all your daily shopping done thru Lyoness Loyalty merchants and with the cashback you receive you create accounting units. And the people under you do the same thing.
I see the $3,000 (in Greece it’s 2,000Euro) purchase of positions logical. And I see it like this. If you were to open up a cafe and give someone the choice to be a working partner only or a monetary investor and working partner which would they choose?
If they believe in the idea and are going to jump on board, so isn’t it logical they would also be a monetary investor as well? I will say this again, you can work the Lyoness system WITHOUT ANY MONEY OUT OF POCKET, it’s just the benefits will be longer down the line.
Also, it is clearly stated that you can make purchases within one year of $30,000 thru Lyoness Loyalty merchants. Who makes $30,000 worth of purchase in one year? How about a car?
How about a business, like a cafe, that has thousands of dollars of inventory it has to buy every month which they can go thru Lyoness Loyalty merchants and get their cash back and build accounting units.
Also, I’ve watched Lyoness grow in Greece over the last 13 months (which is when it was introduced to me) and have seen it’s expansion. Greece is a small country going thru a terrible economic crisis.
There are 67,000 Lyoness members (June of 2012 when I signed up I was member 17,104) and there are over 2,200 business as Loyalty Merchants (I also become one of those as well) In July of 2013 the Lyoness members spent over 3,500,000 Euros at Lyoness Loyalty merchants.
That means that these businesses saw income from customers they wouldn’t have had in the first place without Lyoness. Again, I know this first hand because I owned a cafe and Lyoness members came to the store all the time and they came from areas of Athens that I had no marketing presence in.
Anyway, I have to end here for now because I have to leave… waiting for replies…
Steve
@Steve
Here we go again…
Irrelevant.
So why is it that, even after a decade of operation all the top earners in the company make money via direct investment in account units?
Why did Hubert Friedl himself tell Belgian affiliates “it’s all about positions” and getting affiliates to invest in positions?
If you invest in a cafe at the end of the day you own a piece of that cafe. If you invest in Lyoness… well all you have is monopoly money in the form of units. If enough new investments are made you get a cash ROI.
Comparing a traditional investment to a Ponsi scheme is a waste of time. It’s an even bigger waste of time trying to justify a Ponzi on the merits of a legitimate investment.
Which doesn’t negate the fact that you can just directly invest with Lyoness and get paid a >100% ROI once enough new investments have been made by those you recruit.
As big as it might grow, those at the top still make the bulk of their money from AUs – the same as every other country Lyoness operate in. The Lyoness compensation plan is such that dollar for dollar, it’s far more profitable to recruit investors than to wait for shopping to generate AUs.
I thought America was home of free enterprise. What happened to personal responsibility. Do we need the govt protecting us from cradle to grave.
If someone like the opportunity presented by Lyoness and they are properly educated on it and decide to do a partial payment of $3000 why are you trying to interfere in their decision. If they do not work it and get sour grapes they run whining to the govt and people like you who purport to be advocating for the public.
My understanding is the partial payment can be “shopped off” by applying it gradually against purchases through the Lyoness network or in one shot if buying a big ticket item like a car through a Lyoness dealer.
Meaning if one bought a $50,000 car through a dealer who gives back 4% cashback then the member can apply $2000 of the partial payment he made last week or last year to reduce the price of the car to $48,000.00. So where is the risk other than tying up your capital for a while.
I see this as a legitimate opportunity for someone to raise themselves out of poverty unless you prefer they get food stamps. The prospective Lyoness member should only do partial payments they can afford or join for free and work your way up. My view from Canada
Arguing the legitimacy of Ponzi schemes under free enterprise?
/facepalm
Dunno where the advocating comment came from, this is an information site. Upset that people you are trying to invest aren’t falling for your marketing crap perhaps?
As for “not working it”, recruiting new investors into a Ponzi scheme isn’t work.
Or you can just ignore the shopping network, recruit new investors (use the giftcards to lure them in), get your cash ROI, re-invest and repeat. Your downline does the same and before you know it you’re king of your very own Ponzi heap. Sorry, “shopping network”.
Of course you do. So long as you get your cash ROI, f’em right?
Nobody is interfering in their decision, not even you.
We’re sharing information, and it seems your rant is aimed to PREVENT the sharing of such information.
So what do YOU have to hide?
Lyoness is rewarding recruitment of new investors. The down payments made for the Premium membership doesn’t make any sense if you don’t recruit minimum 4 other investors.
An average participant will mathematically only be able to recruit only 1 new participant. That’s plain and simple math and logic, even if your own brain can mislead you to believe otherwise. The only way you can make money is by someone losing money in the investment part of Lyoness.
So don’t come here and talk about “an option to raise themselves out of poverty”. It’s a plain and simple scam rather than a solution to any poverty problem. You have allowed your own brain to mislead you.
Poverty is more a RESULT of people believing in ideas like Lyoness, much more than Lyoness is a solution to poverty problems. Pyramid schemes are a CAUSE of poverty rather than a solution.
If your only options are food stamps or scams, food stamps should be the preferred solution.
THE MATH AND LOGIC
If I recruit 4 investors, the 5 of us have recruited a total of 4 new investors (0.8 investors each in average). None of us will have made any profit on the investment.
* 1 of us (me) will have made some minor amounts.
* 4 of us will have made no money at all.
If those 4 investors recruit 4 investors each, the 21 of us have recruited 20 investors in total (less than 1 investors each in average).
* 1 of us (me) will have made a small profit.
* 4 of us will have made some minor amounts.
* 16 of us will have made no money at all.
So the investment idea is clearly flawed. You will need more than 20 losers to get 1 winner.
You can add some shoppers to that equation, but it won’t make any sense as a “solution to the poverty problem” even if you add 2 more levels of shoppers under the 21 investors (64+256=320 shoppers). Only the people near the top will have made any profit.
* I will have 20 investors and 320 shoppers in my downline
* My 4 directs will have 4 investors and 80 shoppers each
* My 16 indirects will have 0 investors and 20 shoppers each
People can’t shop their way out of poverty, so it has to be about normal shopping rather than hypothetical examples where everyone is buying new cars. 🙂
You can of course try to improve my math and logic. Lyoness has failed in other countries on the idea “People will always shop”. The investors near the bottom will actually lose money.
Your main problem seems to be your own brain rather than a poverty problem. Your just using the imaginary poverty problem as an excuse for your own participation.
BTW, please link to (or name from the list) one of the car dealers who offer 4% cash back?
The last one who used buying a car as a potential solution only found 1% cash back plus 1% member benefits. He would need to buy 16 cars ($30,000 each) to get his initial investment back through shopping.
I’ve been absent the past few days (new puppy in the house) so I was a bit slower to react than I normally would when someone pulls a derail attempt and start harping on about irrelevant tangents.
Removed d4tress’ derail recruitment attempts (saw a “contact me for the real story” comment with an email address), along with the accompanying discussion. I know because I was slow to catch it a bit of discussion stemmed from d4tress’ derail attempts about jobs, mechanics and what not but I didn’t think it was relevant to the topic.
Attempting to compare Lyoness to “all MLM companies” is a big fat fail, as MLM business models and compensation plans are not singular.
These guys contacted me so today, I’ve been all over google reading things about them. Some of the comments alone dissecting things just… Wow. Good, informative and appreciated.
I don’t know how anyone does not see a pyramid scheme. Regardless of opinion as to whether it’s ok or not, it clearly has that in place. I watched this video today minutes after the first rep. talked to me, and Arlene draws out a pyramid to the guy talking. It’s really funny.
The rep. sent another guy who apparently had the time in the evening to stop in, leave his wife in the car, and come in just to tell me a well-memorized speech.
Ok, that’s kinda impressive since the guy didn’t stutter or skip a beat. But… it was the more human connection approach that seemed funny. He knew I’d be successful with this. He could see it in my eyes… And when you read up on things these people will say to hook you, it’s funny.
He nearly quoted word for word multiple calming things. Things that make you feel like you’re going to be a winner, everyone’s a winner… and really, one guy on top is and the others are just not doing so well (Exceptions may be made).
What really put up a red flag was the last thing he asked me to do: “Type in lyonessscamreview.info”. I don’t care who wrote it (unnamed), how much they proclaim to not be a member of Lyoness (oh yes, they mention that as soon as they excuse their name being omitted)… Looking at that long winded site, all I could think was anyone could have made it. Lyoness or anyone else and without a name, who the hell could become confident from it?
But what raised my flags most of all about it was that this guy knows about the site.
I get SEO companies calling me daily. Debit merchants. All sorts of calls trying to sell my business things. I quickly google them as they speak, and not one has ever provided me with some kind of link explaining how they (probably) are not a scam. But this guy did. And by doing so, it said to me that this company must get so many scam posts, they felt the need to have one single site to argue with.
Just giving me that site actually took away all confidence; How can anyone have confidence in something that actually has to resort to some site that no one knows who actually wrote it??
“Scam review” websites are generally written by the company themselves. It’s a common SEO recommendation, usually just to squat on the domain to prevent haters from getting it, but increasingly scammers are registered something-scam domains to put up fake proof that something is not scam.
I have a whole hub on this where I even traced one scammer back and prove he created all the “social proof” around his “opportunity”.
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/The-Fake-Social-Proof-When-Scams-Review-Scams-and-Declare-them-NOT-Scams