Q International Review: Filters & nutrition
Q International launched in 2011 and are based in the US state of North Carolina.
Heading up the company are founders Evan Runde (CEO), Ken Walker (President and CFO) and John Walker (COO).
In his Q International executive bio, Runde (right) is credited with an accounting, finance and economics background along with 20 years of network marketing experience.
As a multi-million dollar earner, he’s built large organizations in the U.S. and overseas. Evan has also provided consulting services to existing and start-up Network Marketing companies.
His success in the industry has been well documented in publications including Upline, Cutting Edge Opportunities, and Network Marketing Lifestyles.
Richard Poe in his landmark book on the industry, Wave 4 – Network Marketing in the 21st Century, devoted two chapters to Evan.
Runde’s MLM career appears to have begun around the mid 1990s, after a (non-MLM) franchise operation went sour. According to an online bio I found, Runde’s first attempt at MLM wasn’t all that successful. He then went on to join Life Plus, who are still in business today.
After Life Plus there’s a bit of a gap, with a blog created in 2009 linking Runde to “Rain Nutrition”, who were bought out by Rain International in 2011 (seed-based nutritional supplements).
Ken Walker is credited with being ‘a leader and top performer in the Network Marketing industry for 10 years’, however I was unable to find anything specific there either.
Ditto John ‘has years of experience in the network marketing industry’ Walker.
For the record I’m not doubting or attempting to undermine the experience quoted in the Walkers’ Q International bios, just that anything they’ve accomplished outside of MLM generalities appears to have been very low-key.
Read on for a full review of the Q International MLM business opportunity.
The Q International Product Line
Q International market products in the “air”, “water” and general nutrition niches.
Air Products
Q International’s air products are marketed on the question “is the air in your home making you sick?”
The company offers a range of filters from $369 to $999, and claims they filter out particulates, volatile organic compounds and bio-burdens from the surrounding air.
Filters for the machines cost between $49.95 and $179.95.
Water Products
Q International offers tap, shower, under-counter and “whole house” water filters, ranging in price from $129 to $1399. Replacement filters are available for $39 to $79.95.
Q Nutracuticals
The incidence of cancer and heart disease is especially alarming. Diabetes, digestive disorders, auto-immune diseases and an array of other inflammatory conditions are escalating. The statistics are dismal.
However, it all comes down to the two things that promote disease — Inflammation and Oxidation. Reduce inflammation, reduce oxidation and you reduce the incidence of disease.
Q International’s flagship product is something called “QiNopal”.
Unfortunately the company fails to provide any specific information explaining what QiNopal is, but going by the above marketing copy, one can assume QiNopal targets inflammation reduction and oxidation.
Nopals themselves (also known as “prickly-pear cactus“), are
particularly common in their native Mexico where the plant is a common ingredient in numerous Mexican cuisine dishes in which it can be eaten raw or cooked.
It can be used in marmalades, soups stews and salads, as well as being used for traditional medicine or as fodder for animals.
Per US cup serving, nopal fruit provides 13% of the Daily Value for vitamin C and the minerals magnesium (11%) and calcium (14%), and is an excellent source of manganese (20%).
Its calcium may not be biologically available because it is present as calcium oxalate, a non-absorbable complex in the intestine.
According to folk medicine, dietary nopales may affect the glycemic index and be useful in diabetes management.
QiNopal is sold in a single 32oz (946ml) bottle for $50, or can be purchased as a twin-pack ($99.95), four-pack ($199.90) or single-serve case of twenty-four 4oz (118ml) bottles for $163.90.
Q International also offer a “Q Complete” mens and womens nutritional supplement ($79.90) and daily cleanse ($65.90).
The Q International Compensation Plan
Touted as a “one of a kind and never been done before”, the Q International compensation plan combines retail commissions and a series of performance-based bonuses with a unilevel residual backend, generational and matching generational bonus.
Q International Affiliate Ranks
There are twelve affiliate ranks within the Q International compensation plan and, along with their respective qualification criteria, they are as follows:
- Affiliate (Brand Partner) – pay $19.95 affiliate fee
- Builder – accumulate at least 500 PV, recruit at least one affiliate and sign up and maintain one customer
- Professional – accumulate at least 1000 PV, recruit at least one affiliate and sign up and maintain at least two customers
- Director – accumulate at least 1500 PV, recruit at least one affiliate who is at the Professional rank and sign up and maintain at least three customers
- Senior Marketing Director – accumulate at least 5000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 12,500 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (min Director rank) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Regional Marketing Director – accumulate at least 7,500 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 25,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Senior Director or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- National Marketing Director – accumulate at least 10,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 50,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Regional Director or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Presidential Marketing Director – accumulate at least 15,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 100,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 National Director or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Ambassador – accumulate at least 20,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 250,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Presidential Marketing Director or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Premier Ambassador – accumulate at least 25,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 500,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Ambassador or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Royal Ambassador – accumulate at least 30,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 750,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Premier Ambassador or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
- Chairman – accumulate at least 35,000 PV, have a downline that has generated at least 1,000,000 GV and have recruited at least three affiliates (2 Directors and 1 Royal Ambassador or higher) and sign up and maintain five customers
Affiliates can alternatively buy there way into the earlier affiliate ranks with the purchase of a Product-Pak ($299 – $999).
Note that all customers must have either purchased $50 of Q International products within the last thirty days or redeemed a $25 “Q’pon” voucher to be counted towards minimum customer qualification.
Rank Achievement Bonus
Referred to as the AchiverPay and MentorPay bonuses, Q International offer affiliates an ongoing monthly bonus if they maintain rank qualification at the Director or higher rank. The affiliate who recruited the affiliate collecting the Rank Achievement Bonus also earns a commission.
- Director – no direct commission (still earns upline commissions as below)
- Senior Director – $200 commission ($100 upline)
- Regional Director – $400 commission ($200 upline)
- National Director – $600 commission ($300 upline)
- Presidential Director – $800 commission ($400 upline)
- Ambassador – $1000 commission ($500 upline)
- Premier Ambassador – $2000 commission ($1000 upline)
- Royal Ambassador – $3000 commission ($1500 upline)
- Chairman – $4000 commission ($2000 upline)
Note that these commission are monthly, with an affiliate being required to maintain a rank for an initial two consecutive months in order to receive the bonus at their respective rank.
Retail Commissions
Q International offer retail commissions on the sale of all their products to retail (non-affiliate) customers. Q International classify retail commissions as ‘the difference between your wholesale and the retail price’ paid by customers.
Retail commissions are also payable on preferred customer orders, calculated at 40% of the regular commissionable volume rate.
Note that preferred customers are retail customers who place a monthly autoship order in exchange for a wholesale discount on the price of products ordered.
Preferred customers can also refer new customers to the business, with all sales volume generated on their orders attributed to the affiliate who introduced the original preferred customer.
Recruitment Commissions
When a new Q International affiliate purchases a Promo-Pak, the recruiting affiliate receives a cash commission. How much of a commission is earnt depends on which Promo-Pak is being purchased, as well as which Promo-Pak the affiliate qualifying for the commission themselves purchased, and how much monthly PV they generate:
- Builder Pak ($299) – All Pak purchases or ranked affiliates earn $25
- Professional Pak ($599) – Builder Pak purchase or ranked affiliates earn $25, Professional and Director Pak purchase or ranked affiliates earn $50
- Director Pak ($999) – Builder Pak purchase or ranked affiliates earn $25, Professional Pak purchase or ranked affiliates earn $50 and Director Pak purchase or ranked affiliates earn $80
Note that if an affiliate does not purchase a Promo-Pak, they earn $13, irrespective of which Pak is being purchased.
Also note that the entire commission paid out at the Director level is paid out regardless of the initial commission payment. For example, if a Builder affiliate generates a Director-Pak purchase commission ($25), the remaining $55 is paid out along their upline.
If a Director ranked affiliate pops up first, they will be paid the full remaining $55. If a Professional ranked affiliate pop up, they will be paid $25 ($50 – $25) and the system will continue to search the upline for a Director ranked affiliate to pay the remaining $25 to.
Unilevel Commissions
Residual commissions in Q International are paid out using a unilevel compensation structure.
A unilevel compensation structure places an affiliate at the top of a unilevel team, with every personally recruited affiliate directly below them on level 1:
If any of these level 1 affiliates go on to recruit new affiliates of their own, they are placed on level 2 of the original affiliate’s unilevel team. If any level 2 affiliates recruit new affiliates they are placed on level 3 and so on and so forth down a theoretical infinite number of levels.
Q International cap payable unilevel levels at 10, paying out a percentage of half of the sales volume generated by all affiliates within a unilevel team. How much of a commission is paid out is determined by an affiliate’s own membership rank:
- Brand Partner – 1% on all ten levels
- Builder – 2% on all ten levels
- Professional – 3% on all ten levels
- Director – 4% on all ten levels
Note that as with recruitment commissions the Director commission rate is paid out on all sales volume. If an affiliate is not at the Director rank, the system will search their upline for a qualified affiliate to pay out the remainder of the 4% commission to.
If this is not a Director ranked affiliate, the system will pay out the difference and continue searching for a Director ranked affiliate to pay out the remainder to.
Product-Pak Unilevel Commissions
Using the same ten-level deep unilevel compensation structure above, Q International pay affiliates on the purchase of Product-Paks made by affiliates in a unilevel team.
How much of a commission is paid out is determined by the Product-Pak an affiliate themselves bought when they signed up:
- Brand Partner (no Pak purchase) – $2 on all Pak purchases made within the unilevel
- Builder – $5 on all Pak purchases made within the unilevel
- Professional – $5 on Builder Pak and $10 on Professional and Director Pak purchases made within the unilevel
- Director – $5 on Builder Pak, $10 on Professional Pak and $20 on Director Pak purchases made within the unilevel
Note that as with the recruitment commissions paid out, the maximum Director level commission is always paid out. If an affiliate is not at the Director level, the system searches their upline for a higher ranked affiliate to pay out the remainder of the bonus to.
Generational Unilevel Bonus
The Generational unilevel commissions offered by Q International function as a regular “infinity bonus”. In effect, it extends the available payable levels of a standard unilevel team beyond the original ten.
This is done by defining generations within a unilevel team.
A generation is created when a Director or higher ranked affiliate is found within an individual unilevel leg.
When a Director or higher ranked affiliate is found, every affiliate above them is defined as the first generation.
If another Director is found below this first Director, then a second generation is defined between them.
If no additional Directors are found, the second generation extends down to the end of the unilevel leg (“infinity” levels).
Commissions are paid out as a percentage of half the commissionable volume generated by unilevel generations, with how much of a percentage being paid out depending on an affiliate’s own membership rank:
- Senior Marketing Director – 8% on generations one to infinity
- Regional Marketing Director – 8% on generations two to infinity
- National Marketing Director – 4% on generations three to infinity
- Presidential Marketing Director – 4% on generations four to infinity
- Ambassador – 2% on generations five to infinity
- Premier Ambassador – 2% on generations six to infinity
- Royal Ambassador – 1% on generations one to infinity
- Chairman – 1% on generations eight to infinity
Referred to as QfinityPay, affiliates qualify for the bonus by hitting the Senior Director affiliate rank.
The Product-Paks also generate a generational bonus commission as follows:
- Senior Marketing Director – $10 on the Builder Pak, $15 on the Professional Pak and $20 on the Director Pak from generations one to infinity
- Regional Marketing Director – $10 on the Builder Pak, $15 on the Professional Pak and $20 on the Director Pak from generations two to infinity
- National Marketing Director – $4 on the Builder Pak, $6 on the Professional Pak and $8 on the Director Pak from generations three to infinity
- Presidential Marketing Director – $4 on the Builder Pak, $6 on the Professional Pak and $8 on the Director Pak from generations four to infinity
- Ambassador – $2 on the Builder Pak, $3 on the Professional Pak and $4 on the Director Pak from generations five to infinity
- Premier Ambassador – $2 on the Builder Pak, $3 on the Professional Pak and $4 on the Director Pak from generations six to infinity
- Royal Ambassador – $1 on the Builder Pak, $2 on the Professional Pak and $3 on the Director Pak from generations seven to infinity
- Chairman – $1 on the Builder Pak, $2 on the Professional Pak and $3 on the Director Pak from generations eight to infinity
Note that both generational bonus commissions diminish percentage and payout wise as an affiliate’s rank increases.
It is expected that the raw volume being qualified on will result in an overall increase in the bonus being paid out at the upper ranks.
Further note that a minimum of two Director ranked legs are required to qualify for the generational bonus.
An affiliate is not paid the generational bonus on these two qualifying unilevel legs (all other non-generational commissions and bonuses apply).
These Director legs are initially the first two Director ranked affiliates found when searching the unilevel from left to right (oldest to most recent personally recruited affiliates), however after three or more exist, Q International rotate the legs out from left to right in a repeatable cycle.
Generational Unilevel Bonus Match
Starting at the Director rank, the generational bonus commissions paid out to affiliates is matchable down a maximum four levels of recruitment.
How many levels an affiliate receives a generational bonus match on is determined by their own affiliate rank:
- Director and Senior Marketing Directors – 10% on one level of recruitment
- Regional and National Marketing Directors – 10% on the first and 5% on the second level of recruitment
- Presidential Marketing Director – 10% on the first level and 5% on the second and third levels of recruitment
- Ambassador – 10% on the first and second levels of recruitment and 5% on the third
- Premier Ambassador – 10% on the first and second and 5% on the third and fourth levels of recruitment
- Royal Ambassador – 10% on the first to third levels of recruitment and 5% on the fourth
- Chairman – 10% on all four available levels of recruitment
1st Order Bonus
When a new affiliate makes their first product order (excluding Promo-Paks), the affiliate who recruited them earns a 40% volume bonus commission on 50% of the commissionable volume of that order (the remaining 60% is paid out via the standard unilevel commissions).
DirectorPay Bonus
If an affiliate buys a Director-Pak or organically qualifies as a Director, they receive 10% of half of the commissionable volume generated by any personally recruited affiliates who are at the Director or higher rank.
This 10% bonus is paid out down the line of recruitment up until another Director ranked affiliate is found in that particular recruitment leg.
StarPay Bonus
The StarPay Bonus rewards affiliates for buying a Director Pak and signing up for autoship. Then, as long as an affiliate maintains a monthly 100 PV in sales volume, they are StarPay Bonus qualified.
A StarPay Bonus qualified affiliate can earn shares, based on how many affiliates they recruit and convince to buy Director Pak.
StarPay shares are valid for 30, 60 or 90 days and are allocated as follows:
- recruit a new Director Pak affiliate within your first 30 days – receive a 30 day share
- if the newly recruited affiliate recruits a new Director Pak affiliate of their own – receive a 60 day share
- if the newly recruited affiliate recruits a new affiliate who recruits a new Director Pak affiliate – receive a 90 day share
The share pool is made up of 5% of all Product-Pak sales, and is paid out according to how many StarPay shares each qualified affiliate has.
AfterYouPay Commissions
The concept behind the “AfterYouPay” commission, as described in the Q International compensation plan material, is to permit affiliates to
get Paid from up to the next 500 people who join Q after you whether you refer anyone or not!!!
In order to qualify for the AfterYouPay commission, an affiliate must
- purchase a “Promo-Pak” (or eventually qualify at the equivalent affiliate membership rank)
- sign up for autoship
- be generating at least 100 Personal Volume in sales each month (can be self-purchases)
How many people who join after them an affiliate is paid on depends on how much money they spend on a Promo-Pak:
- Builder Promo-Pak ($299) – 100 people
- Professional Promo-Pak ($599) – 250 people
- Director Promo-Pak ($999) – 500 people
Commissions are paid out at a rate of 3% of the commissionable volume on product sales (including Promo-Paks), shared out amongst qualifying affiliates.
Each qualifying affiliate receives a pro-rata share of the applicable commissionable volume (it will vary depending on how many people under them they qualify to earn a commission on), based on their “Dream-Maker Points”.
Dream-Maker Points appear to be a separate points sytstem within the compensation plan, tied into product orders. Q International’s own explanation of Dream-Maker Points is rather hopelessly vague:
Brand Partners and higher ranks meeting the Personal Qualifying Volume requirement can earn DREAM-MAKER POINTS for all types of activities which can be redeemed for cash and/or rewards, prizes, trips, and lots of exciting gifts.
The idea is for us to help make the most important or as many dreams or wishes as possible come true for you and/or the dreams or wishes of your loved ones.
As I understand it, if the total commissionable volume made by people you qualified to earn on was 1000 points, that would first be multiplied by 3% (30).
This 30 figure would then be multiplied by a ratio determined by the percentage of Dream-Maker Points) generated by all affiliates qualifying for AfterYouPay commissions.
If you made 1000 points and the total was 100,000, the figure would be 0.01 (1000 / 100000).
So, 30 * 0.01 = 30 cents and that would be your AfterYouPay commission for that month.
Note that I’ve just used random figures here to illustrate the commission, it’s in no way indicative of how much an affiliate will actually make (there’s too many variables to estimate that accurately).
Joining Q International
Basic affiliate (Brand Partner) membership to Q International is $19.95 a month.
Affiliates are also charged a $14.95 monthly fee under certain conditions:
Participation in afterYOUPAY™, Dream-Maker Points, Rewards, & PRIZES Program, the $50 Gift Q’Pon Program, and the Builder rank or higher requires a minimum subscription of $14.95/mth to the Qi SuccessSystem.
From the Builder and higher ranks the $14.95/mth subscription to the Qi SuccessSystem is required as well.
Realistically, given the weight and emphasis placed on the Product-Paks, an affiliate is likely to be paying $299 to $999 for one of the paks too.
Conclusion
There’s a lot to like in Q International but unfortunately there are several glaring red-flags with the compensation plan that cannot be ignored.
On the product front the assortment of air and water filters with a nutrition line might seem a bit odd, but it’s marketed under the banner of general health and wellness so I suppose it’s not too out there.
What is a bit eyebrow-raising however is the manner in which Q International themselves market the range.
The company doesn’t explicitly state that their QiNopal juice cures cancer and all the other diseases mentioned, however that it’s effective as a preventative is strongly implied.
And this is what that translates into in regard to Q International affiliate marketing efforts:
If you ask me Q International are just begging for regulatory attention (there wasn’t even an FDA disclaimer on their products page).
Another thing I found problematic on the Q International page was the lack of product information given out.
If you click “learn more” in their replicated storefront, unless you have an affiliate referral code you aren’t provided any additional information about the products.
Case in point I actually had to go off and Google “nopal” to find out what it was, and that lack of functionality is not really helpful to potential customers.
What I did like was the repeat-consumable nature of the product line, everything from the juice to the filters is a repeat-consumable and that in itself is half the battle of marketing products via MLM.
Definitely a niche market with the filters (and even arguably the juice), but if you do sell a filter then your customer is going to be coming back to your for replacement filters. Ditto the juice, assuming they feel the purported benefits of it.
The Q International compensation plan material is a monster at thirty-three pages in length, but aside from the whole “Qube” stuff (which I still don’t entirely get but believe it’s not integral to explaining the compensation plan), and the AfterYouPay commission, I didn’t find it all that complicated.
Much of the last ten to fifteen pages is taken up explaining the affiliate ranks page by page and then plenty of compensation examples (which to be honest I thought were presented in a far too complicated manner with lines going everywhere).
As for the actual plan itself, it was refreshing to see actual customer requirements built into the affiliate ranks. Typically we only see affiliate recruitment requirements so this made for a nice change.
Where things completely fall apart though is the “pay to play” element of the plan. Entirely optional sure, allowing affiliates to buy their way into various affiliate ranks (all the way up to the Presidential Marketing Director rank with enough recruiting), is just asking for trouble.
Achieve “instant” rank status for up to 180 days purchasing the respective Promo-Pak.
What it ultimately translates into is a prospective affiliate having to choose between actually building their business, or paying a free and insta-ranking up. Otherwise known as “pay to play”.
Yes it’s only temporary for six months but when you combine it with the additional emphasis to buy Product Paks and required monthly autoship quotas, it translates into an affiliate culture that revolves around recruitment and then hoping for the best.
Hoping for the best in that after six months the affiliate can maintain the rank they bought into (and/or recruit others to keep the commissions rolling).
It totally detracts from organic affiliate promotion and skewers focus away from selling products to retail customers to buying your way in and then getting those you bring in to do the same.
Furthermore it throws into question the motivation behind all affiliate product purchases; are they buying products to qualify for commissions or because they are actually going to use the products based on perceived non-financial value?
I mean hell, here’s how Q International themselves market the opportunity:
Whether you are a novice, professional, part-time or full-time, young or mature, etc., the QiPAY PLAN is the perfect plan for you. And because of our afterYOUPAY you will want to join NOW… why??
Because you can be paid on the purchases and sales of up to the next 500 Brand Partners and Customers who join after you!!
And there’s so much emphasis on signing up with a Product Pak and autoship that I’d be surprised if scrapping the organic rank qualification altogether would have any affect on affiliate signup rates:
STARPAY is designed to PAY you to take action within your first 30 days, PAY you to help your Brand Partners take action in their first 30 days, and PAY you to help the Brand Partners that they enroll to take action in their first 30 days.
It is REALLY important that you become eligible in your first 30 days!!!
The same is true for those you enroll and that they enroll… if they are not eligible and someone they enroll later on earns a 30 or 60 Day STARPAY Share… you DO NOT earn the double or triple match shares… so it is REALLY important that you help your first and second level become eligible for STARPAY by becoming Instant Directors in their first 30 days… very very important!!!
I didn’t add all those exclamation marks, that’s the official marketing copy from the Q International compensation plan.
All these points are considerable red flags in and of themselves… combined they’re an utter disaster!
I’ll finish up by quoting an article written by Q International CEO Evan Runde, first published in 2000.
In it, Runde talks about his first MLM opportunity experience (note the perspective switch from third to first and back to third-person again is how the original article was written by Runde):
Evan’s dream of self-employment became a nightmare when his partner left them holding the bag on $210 , 000 in debt.Evan and Tonette were forced to sell the business , losing everything they had spent the last two years building.
During this time , Evan was introduced to network marketing.
He spent the next five years building a network marketing business with little success. Although, Evan worked full-time at the business, he could not seem to make enough money to support his family.
He was frustrated because he believed that he should be able to do it.
It was an old-time MLM with volume requirements, high retail sales quotas and breakaway groups.A few people upline were making money, but no one else I knew was.
In order to meet our quotas and continue to receive our commission check, Tonette and I slowly sank further into debt. I kept thinking I wasn’t working hard enough, shares Evan.
In order to stay self-employed, the Rundes took over a large newspaper distribution route.
Evan worked nights on the newspaper route and the rest of his time on his network marketing business.
Tonette spent 40 hours a week handling the administrative/billing duties and taking care of their three children. There had to be a better way.
I don’t know what happened between the 90s and today, but it seems Runde has created a near identical opportunity to one he himself had no success in.
Ultimately you can make all the purchases and fees optional, but if they’re easy mode and required to unlock certain conditions, they might as well be mandatory.
Given these requirements are built into the core of the compensation plan, I’m at a loss as to how Q International could address the issues without a total plan rewrite.
Not a cheap or easy fix but it will certainly leave the company with a much more robust (and compliant!) offering going forward.
Air filter, water filter, and drink based on some “uber” fruit… hehehe. Reminds me of a former high-flyer
Yep, *that* Equinox, closed in 1999 by FTC.
Also, Nopales juice was actually sold by Trivita (already reviewed here) as “Nopalea”
Their medical advisor is an “doctor of osteopathic medicine”, which is basically half-way between a MD and a Chiropractor, and has his own website nopalcactusdoctor(dot)com selling books and brochures touting benefits of nopal fruit.
Not to defend this opp at all, but a DO is essentially an MD. Both a DO and MD have the same essential knowledge just different teaching. Sorry, as a prospective medical student, DO schools are just as good as MD. That issue was resolved in the 70s.
I’m sorry to take this personal, but I hate ******* college students who don’t know their butthole from their elbow saying “OH DO SCHOOL IS WEAK BRO.” When the practice and earnings for that matter between DO and MD don’t nearly differ. My father is a DO and he’s done ALL the same things MDs do. Hell, he had his own practice.
From Wikipedia:
Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O. or DO) is a professional doctoral degree for physicians and surgeons offered by medical schools in the United States. Holders of the D.O. degree have attained the ability to become licensed as osteopathic physicians who have equivalent rights, privileges, and responsibilities as physicians with a Doctor of Medicine degree (M.D.)
It’s a MD that’s indoctrinated in “alternative medicine”.
Let’s just say in the past 30-50 years, in order to make the world take them seriously, they made themselves equivalent of a MD. Before that, they’re just fancy chiropractors. Fair enough?
Ehhhhh slightly better but look, if I was to take 5-10 doctors and not tell you who was a DO and who was a MD, damn near 100% of the population wouldn’t be able to tell the difference, deal?
Look, I get that some people see “alternative medicine” and think “bullshit.” And sure, there have been DOs & MDs who do alternative crap just to get publicity when in reality their practices are based on limited or no research. Few DOs claim they practice “alternative medicine.” But yes, there are “doctors” who do sketchy practices like that.
Bottom line: DO or MD, both have to pass the same boards to get certified in the US.
Anyway, my apologies in digressing the comments away from the review which was written.
It only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel. And sorry about the generalization.
Final digression on this topic: those who desire more information on the difference between a DO and a MD is… DO’s are required to learn OM… osteopathic manipulation, which is basically chiropractics, with a bit more science.
Most DO’s are just like MDs… most don’t care much for their OM training (it’s a price they pay for getting medical training), but some DO’s act more like chiropractor, claiming OM can help treat or prevent influenza (i.e. the flu) (Waaah?), and “cranial osteopathy” can treat things wrong with your teeth (WTF?!) and such manipulations often serve as gateway to more alternative medicine, such as the juice doc mentioned earlier.
Those who are interested can read the blog “Science-Based medicine” at
sciencebasedmedicine.org/pump-it-up-osteopathic-manipulation-and-influenza
^^That’s why you’re the man K.Chang..perfect response 🙂
I’ve never seen or heard of this website until today. (Ozedit: derail attempt removed).
It is also interesting to me that before this article was published no one at the company was contacted to review or advise the author to clarify, ask questions, or check the validity/accuracy of any statements from the website, products, or compensation plan.
I am the consultant to Q International and designed/authored the compensation plan. There are several inaccuracies in the article. One of the most glaring is the “pay to play” comments. The compensation plan document clearly states for all commissions types (with the exception of StarPAY) that the rank can be “earned” OR obtained with an Instant Promo-Pak.
Concurrently the author or reviewer of this article completely missed (of many things missed) that a Brand Partner (not an affiliate) can achieve the top rank in the plan WITHOUT making ANY personal product purchases and that EZ-Ship (autoship) is NOT a requirement at all unlike many plans that require it (forcing a personal autoshhip and/or personal purchase is illegal).
Also, ranks can be achieved with ALTERNATIVE qualifiers such as customers only, directors only, leadership development, or a combination.
The QiPAY™ Plan was reviewed by an MLM attorney who stated that this was one of the most legally and regulatory complaint plans he had ever reviewed.
There are MANY other aspects to the review of the plan, products, and management that are inaccurate and that were not included as well in this article. But especially the compensation plan… much was left out or missed altogether.
I certainly hope if the owner of this site and/or the author of the article are legitimate that they will seek to contact me directly or a company executive to clear up the inaccuracies and include what was missed.
BehindMLM reviews are not your typical PR spin bullshit you find on the internet. I adopt a “I am a prospective affiliate” approach to reviews and rely only on publicly available information.
If I feel a plan is too complicated I say so and note the plans cumbersome complexity. If the plan is misrepresented in the company’s official compensation plan documentation, that’s another issue entirely.
As someone who has reviewed hundreds of MLM compensation plans, can I suggest you rewrite the documentation. Nobody is going to understand it and that’s a problem you need to address.
Providing an alternative option does not negate the pay-to-play aspect of the compensation plan. As it stands I can buy my way into the compensation plan, with how much I spend when I sign up as an affiliate directly affecting my commission payouts.
Providing an alternative option does not negate the pay-to-play aspect of the compensation plan.
Tying several commissions into autoship makes it a defacto requirement.
You can try to *wink wink, nudge nudge* it all you want, by tying commissions into autoship your requiring your affiliates to sign up for it.
Providing an alternative option does not negate the pay-to-play aspect of the compensation plan.
Cool story bro.
At thirty three pages in length, I cut anything that wasn’t relevant.
Since leaving this comment you’ve since left me an email requesting I call you up. Feel free to address any inaccuracies here, and consider this my reply to both your email and comment above.
Note that if all you’re going to do is harp on about alternatives to buying my way into the QI compensation plan, then you’d be wasting your time.
OZ (whoever you are) appreciate the response and feedback… really do. Although it seems more adversarial and defensive in nature as well it probably should be in this particular format… it is your site and your forum so you dictate the protocol.
My primary concern more than anything here is that the truth and full disclosure be represented. As to opinions, legal or otherwise, that can or can’t really be debated or addressed fully here are still opinions and are ultimately and admittedly argumentative.
Here are some facts:
(1) The QiPAY Plan is legally complaint, reviewed, and blessed by a top MLM attorney. It is not a “cool story” it is fact. We can arrange for you to speak with our attorney about it.
(2) The 34 page comp plan doc is comprehensive in nature to make EVERY aspect of the plan in a full disclosure, full transparency manner not only to current but to potential representatives AND for legal and regulatory review.
We did not want to hide anything about our plan unlike most companies who barely scratch the surface of how their plans work. (Having been in MLM for 45+ years, full-time for 30 years, I’ve always disliked a one page or three page plan that could be misinterpreted.) However, that being said… the first nine(9) pages describe the basics of the comp plan, page 10 is a one page overview, the rest of the pages are support documentation for ranks, examples, and definitions.
We have a 4 minute video that covers the basics of the plan for those who are not into the “details.” And it is unfortunate but most people in MLM including leaders rarely understand their company’s compensation plan even after they see how or what they’ve been paid.
Understanding a compensation plan is not a pre-requisite for success in MLM. Regardless, I’ve always believed in providing as much detail about a plan as possible rather than too little. And actually you made some really good comments and observations in this regards.
(3) All ranks can be earned several different ways as well as EZ-Ship is not required as well as no personal purchase requirements to earn the highest rank. These aspects are not only there for legal compliance but they are also there because I’ve been involved in too many plans that did not offer these alternatives.
There are way too many true illegal “pay-to-play” opportunities in the market-place without ANY options or alternatives. A true “pay-to-play” program or comp plan is one that has no other alternatives but to pay to participate… that is illegal and there are hundreds of companies that force personal purchase, personal autoship, personal enrollments, and/or a pak or business kit purchases without ANY other alternative.
In the QiPAY Plan (with the exception of StarPAY) the optional Promo-Paks are just that… optional… regardless of the benefits of purchasing them. Personally, I would rather have a plan that offered any and all alternatives including the purchase of a pak and a benefit for doing so. How we implemented this in QiPAY Plan is legal and has integrity in it. You can have a difference of opinion on this point and that is okay… we can agree to disagree.
(4) More directly to the EZ-Ship situation… in QiPAY Plan, unlike most plans that absolutely require it (illegally) and force it upon you, we make it something you will want to do… not HAVE TO do. EZ-Ship subscription is required for StarPAY, AfterYouPAY, and to obtain/maintain an Instant rank.
It is NOT required to obtain/maintain any earned rank nor is it required for any of the other commission types (which is where 90% or more of the compensation plan pays). Participation in EZ-Ship is incentive based and there is a huge difference between forcing it and voluntarily choosing it. Furthermore, even if one is subscribed to EZ-Ship there is still no need for it to apply or engage as long as customer volume is sufficient to meet PV for the rank.
All we ask is for a subscription in order for it to kick-in if needed and that is to benefit the Brand Partner in order not to miss out on commissions. Additionally, we set-up EZ-Ship, again, so that reps and customers would WANT TO be on it… the best price for the product is the EZ-Ship price. We not only wanted a fully legal compliant plan, especially around autoship, but offer the best incentives to be on it rather than make it mandatory.
In closing here… my comments about contacting us and getting full-due-dilgence disclosure has and had nothing to do with marketing PR… we simply want, as anyone would want… our company, products, management, and compensation plan to be represented with accuracy. We have videos and recorded webinars that go into all the various aspects of the company and the plan that were not represented here in your article.
For instance… the real-time nature of commission payments and rank advancement (and the advantages of doing that over non-real-time-batch-mode-processing), not resetting group volume to zero at the first of every month – we always look back 30 days or ahead 30 days for group volume (and we have no periods… no month, no week, there is only now and the benefits of that), the unblockable pay to the bottom of legs nature of the generational infinity and what that means to a leader and even the little guy, the aspect that you can sign-up one person and earn 10 levels from Unilevel and up to 20 levels in differentials from one leg (what comp plan pays you on one leg or one sign-up ten or 20 levels??), the aspects that the entire plan pays out on EVERY sale in real-time now making the whole plan a fast-start plan (unlike other companies where you have to wait 3 months to be paid on new representatives and customers coming into your organization).
There’s even more than that… but I will leave this with as it is now and hope you will look a little deeper.
Thanks again for your response and feedback.
Why can’t it be fact and a cool story together?
I couldn’t care less if an attorney reviewed the plan. Neither should anybody conducting their own due diligence into QI, and/or reviewing the compensation plan.
Fair enough call, as someone who’s reviewed it though (and didn’t write it) I’ll stand by my comments on the length. Might make sense to the author of the plan but it’s spaghetti to anyone else at first glance.
Yeah, one of which is buying your way in. And that’s a problem (pay to play).
Oh dear. Really?
Options and alternatives don’t negate the pay to play aspect of the plan.
“Hey guys, we’re offering something totally illegal but uh it’s optional. So we’re good?”
Come on now.
(robot voice) Warning, warning… danger, danger! (/robot voice)
If it’s illegal, why offer it at all? Alternatives do not negate what you additionally permit affiliates to do (buy their compensation plan positions).
That’s because I’m not interested in marketing spin BS. Neither are my readers or anyone conducting actual due diligence into an MLM business opportunity.
Yeah, that marketing PR you said you wanted nothing to do with – there it is. As far as I can see, none of that has anything to do with the core mechanics of the compensation plan for analysis purposes. It’s just marketing crap and as such was omitted.
“Look how we pay you, OMFG REAL TIME! We count both ways time wise! We pay you 20 levels!”
I covered what was relevant to understanding the core mechanics of the compensation plan. The additional marketing spin is available to anyone who wants to watch QI’s videos.
OZ… once again… I do appreciate your response and feedback. I can see your point-of-view and honestly have empathy for it. For certain we will have to agree to disagree on your opinions and assertions.
As to marketing PR as well we will have to disagree… I’ve been in this business way to long to know the difference. The points I raised to me are more than relevant to a serious networker and are far from marketing PR… especially if you have experienced the opposite in many of the various comp plans out there over the years.
The one thing I will agree with is the comp plan explanation is lengthy, complicated, and confusing for almost everyone. That’s why we have the new 4 minute video and our webinars and Saturday educational series gets down to the basics of building the business.
One thing you missed is our $50 Gift Q’pons which are a great duplicatable marketing tool and product as well. Oh, and is it marketing PR to offer a 90 days empty bottle guarantee?
Again, glad you have this review process and dialogue. It brings out the best and worst in us all. 😉
Perhaps step back and take into context BehindMLM reviews here are written in.
I don’t approach an opportunity from a “serious networker” viewpoint, I approach it from the viewpoint of someone who knows nothing about a company and is performing their due diligence for the first time.
That’s why the finer marketing points of the plan are ignored. And it is PR spin, as a review can be written by omitting the spin (as has been done here). I only focus on the core of the model, as I believe that’s all that is important.
a marketing tool. Again, I didn’t miss this – I ignored it. They’re only relevant to someone trying to promote QI.
Yes. Again, this is only relevant to someone who has already joined and is trying to promote QI.
I’ll reply to your email here about the 4 minute video, if it simplifies the plan then that’s definitely an improvement. Hopefully it leaves out the marketing stuff though and just focuses on what’s important.
I did this and came in at 4,500 words, so I’m not too sure how effective a 4 minute video is going to be.
While your comp plan is good, you do know that by itself it does NOT PRECLUDE the possibility that QI may be a pyramid scheme, right? It merely makes it “less likely”. What actually happens in the company is the ultimate guide.
In Burnlounge, there is a free option, but less than 10% of participants chose it. It is IRRELEVANT.
And the fact that you admit that you allow people to “instant rank” by autoship pretty much makes your denial moot. Can you not see that you are arguing against yourself there?
OZ… I am really impressed that you are engaging in this conversation and I appreciate the point of view and where you are coming from believe me. I was once a newbie… it took me 11 years to sponsor my first person… true story… sad but true.
I’ve always prided myself on making sure the little guy… the newbie had at least a fighting chance. Little things that you may consider to be irrelevant marketing PR are actually very very important distinctions that impact newbies whether they know it or not… ignorance is not bliss.
I could give you many examples but I really don’t want to bring up another point to argue about. It is your site, your forum, your protocol. I bow to that. All things being equal… even for a newbie there are aspects to compensation plans that go beyond the basic structure of the plan that have a huge impact on the newbie or the experienced networker. I agree with you that a newbie wouldn’t even know it mattered… but in reality it all matters… really it does.
Anyway… not sure even where you are coming from on the pyramid-scheme scenario unless you mean that ANY company with a multi-tiered or multi-level compensation model along with how it operates itself may be deemed a pyramid scheme. No company is exempt from that scrutiny.
If our attorney thought the pay-to-play issue was of concern he would have addressed it with us. He is someone you have mentioned in your site that you seem to think highly. What is relevant in our case, and believe me I asked the same questions and points you have raised here in this article with him, was the following:
(a) Promo-Paks are NOT mandatory regardless of the incentives otherwise;
(b) the benefit of an instant rank is not permanent.. the rank would have to be earned within 180 days;
(c) instant rank benefit is limited to lower ranks; (d) paks have real true retail/wholesale/discounted product value (Director Pak is 58% off retail and 14% off wholesale… really good deal and great value); (e) buy-back policy is in place; and
(e) purchasing a pak is much less costly out-of-pocket than earning the rank. For instance… Director-Pak is $999 (retail over $2,300). Earning the Director rank with cumulative personal volume immediately or over time would require 1500CV or about $2,000 out-of-pocket versus $999 with less value depending on what was purchased not to mention the customer and brand partner requirements for 180 days).
The BurnLounge case is irrelevant in comparison although you can argue that till we go insane trying to prove who is right or who is wrong.
This plan was very carefully thought out in every detail and there is a reason and purpose for every little aspect which we cannot get into here. As to arguing against myself… the only person I am arguing with here is you. But that okay… if we all agreed on everything there wouldn’t be any reason to talk about anything would there??
As a consultant of QI, can you provide the figures on number of QI affiliates who paid for their commissions and affiliate rank versus those who qualified otherwise over the last 12 months?
And I maintain that any alternative offerings are moot in the face of permitting affiliates to pay-to-play. Being “optional” is not a “get out of jail free” card.
As a consultant I am not authorized to provide that information… that would have to come from Corp exec management. This new compensation plan was launched 1/1/2014 so there isn’t 12 months worth of data.
As to the optional nature, legality, and get out of jail… that can be said of ANY compensation plan in existence. We believe, I believe, that we have gone to every lengths to make this plan legally compliant and provide the pathway to success for any level of participation or expertise or financial ability that a plan can possibly cover. The “pay-to-play” definition or rule is not all inclusive nor is it inherently exclusive.
Again, we can agree to disagree and I substantiate my position through our well known, reputable, decades in practice MLM attorney who gave his blessing and legal opinion on our plan.
Lastly… and let’s please end it here… as is stated in our documentation… ” Brand Partners can earn and be paid from the highest rank in the plan without making ANY personal product purchases…” (and again note that there are many other aspects that regulators look at in regards to pay-to-play scenario which I have laid out in previous responses.)
That or “I don’t have access to that information” is the usual story.
Well, three months of data will suffice.
Irrelevant.
Then why adopt certain pay to pay elements that clearly not legal?
I mean if you’re going to offer alternatives to pay to play, why offer pay to play in the first place?
As long as there’s a pay to play element to the plan, oprtional or not, the red-flags cited here remain.
Okay, point-blank question. Can you BUY your way up to a rank? According to you, you can at least for 3 months. What happens after 3 months? Can one buy oneself that rank again? Or is that a one-time only offer?
And how do you audit retail, as per Amway safeguard rules?
ANY plan where you have a recruitment requirement to get paid will technically be in the pyramid scheme territory, if recruitment is the ONLY realistic method to make a profit.
The logic I used there was MATHEMATICAL rather than LEGAL. A court or a regulator will most likely use different logic, but the mathematical method will reveal some “vulnerabilities” where a business POTENTIALLY can have a part of its operations halted (similar to BurnLounge).
MLM and network marketing should PRIMARILY be about distribution of goods and services to end users (internal and external ones). The income opportunity is a SECONDARY function, not a primary one. If you make it become a primary function, the business will operate in pyramid scheme territory.
Any plan where you need to recruit 2 or more people into the same system you’re participating in yourself will be unsustainable / will be doomed to fail for most of the participants. It doesn’t matter how hard people work or how qualified they are, it will fail regardless of factors like that.
You can simulate ANY type of recruitment driven program, and they will ALL fail mathematically.
* Binary systems will fail (for MOST participants)
* Matrices will fail
* Unilevel systems will fail
* Stairstep breakaway will fail
* Any combinations will fail
The ONLY sales systems that can work are the ones that have a primary focus on external consumers = many more external consumers than distributors = the most significant part of the business is about retail sales to external consumers.
* I recruit 2 (the 3 of us have recruited 2)
* Those 2 recruit 4
* Those 4 recruit 8
* Those 8 recruit 16 (the 31 of us have recruited 30)
In average, every person in that downline have personally recruited ONE person each. It doesn’t matter how hard they have worked or how qualified they have been, the average will always be ONE = the opportunity will fail for the average consumer.
* I have 30 people in downline (2+4+8+16)
* My 2 directs have 14 people each in downline (2+4+8)
* My 4 second level have 6 people each in downline (2+4)
* My 8 third level will have 2 people each in downline
* My 16 fourth level will have 0 people in downline
The system works great for 1 person (me), not so great for my 2 directly sponsored (14 people in downline). It doesn’t work great for any of the others. The percentage of “doesn’t work great” will always be higher than 75%.
A court will normally accept definitions like “average consumer”, because it’s the same definition used by law makers. My binary system will be very vulnerable to a correct use of logical and legal arguments.
The best defense I can put up is to show that we actually have a lot of retail sales to external consumers. If we have that, the system will also work better for the average participant, and we will not have the same types of problems.
The question is… How many do so? If it’s only like 10% of all reps, then you’d STILL be a pyramid scheme. 9th Circuit said so in the Omnitrition case. Omnitrition said ‘we have a free level’, court said ‘it’s only a few percent, and they don’t enjoy all the comp plan, so they are irrelevant and thus is not a defense’.
Hey, look, we’re NOT anti-MLM, we ask harder questions than most people because most people don’t. You do see all the “bad apples”. And how do you tell the bad apples from the opportunities? By asking questions, of course.
As the Omnitrition case shown, you need to emphasize SALES, SALES, and SALES, and if you allow reps to BUY their way up the levels, even for a limited period… You’re going to draw comparison with Omnitrition and Burnlounge.
Oops, make that SIX months (180 days, as per Mr. Meakin)
How long’s the refund period, BTW? 90 days or 180 days?
To address some of posts above as it relates to Q International and the QiPAY™ Plan:
– 90 day empty bottle guarantee.
– 3 customer rule at lower ranks, 5 customer rule at higher ranks (Qube Qualified ranks starting at Senior Marketing Director can be earned with customers only… no sponsoring required).
– Cumulative Personal Volume requirement can ALL come from customer volume, however, 50% of the requirement MUST come from customer volume at the National Marketing Director rank and higher).
– Qi SuccessSystem offers Customer Acquisition Program(s) to assist Brand Partners in acquiring buying and trial-based customers. (Brand Partners can actually purchase customers.)
– Qi SuccessSystem offers landing page(s) and eCommerce support specifically for developing customers for individual products.
– Qi SuccessSystem offers $50 Gift Q’pon program/system to assist in developing customers who only pay shipping/handling for a bottle of Qi Nopal or 3 Day Sample Pak of all nutritional products.
– Qi SuccessSystem offers a special reward points driven program to incentivize customers to refer customers. Brand Partners can earn 40% of the Customer Commissionable Volume from customers, and their customers, and their customers (customer group). A Brand Partner can develop a customer base and ultimately a full-time income specifically from customer development without any rank or personal volume qualifiers.
– There are no sponsoring or enrollment requirements for AfterYouPAY™ and 10 Compressed Level UnilevelPAY (Unilevel is based on placement tree meaning someone can be placed under you and you can earn 10 compressed levels without sponsoring anyone).
– The company is continuing to work on and develop other customer lead generation programs including those where a customer can request a FREE $50 Gift Q’pon. And much more coming.
And for the record, as I stated previously, the purchase of a pak is an “alternative” and temporary short-cut (which is legal and certainly fair) to earning the rank… just as earning the rank is the normal (now or over time) alternative to purchasing a pak.
The pak purchase allows for those who CHOOSE to jump-start and equip themselves for business or even have a selection of products at a greatly discounted price for personal consumption.
We just made an improvement to the compensation plan as of today… the AchieverPAY and MentorPAY no longer requires a 60 day qualification/maintenance period, it is paid in real-time when the fully qualified rank requirements are earned and continues to pay every 30 days thereafter at the earned rank.
Ladies and gentlemen… I’ve taken a great deal of time away from my regular duties and responsibilities to bring about some corrections and truth. I do appreciate the forum here. If there are any updates to the plan I will post them here at a later date.
Sorry chief but your plan either has pay to play or it doesn’t.
QI permit affiliates to buy their way into higher affiliate ranks and as such most definitely has a pay to play element to it. There’s no interpretations or opinions, this how it is.
Offered as an alternative or not, it’s still pay to play.
Cheers for posting the other updates and information, I’m sure it’ll be of use to those conducting their due diligence into QI.
Once again… and we will have to agree to disagree again… and again on this point. If the pay-to-play rule was of concern our MLM attorney who has written articles and been an expert witness on… would have had us make changes or adjustments.
Secondly, as I have stated previously we clearly ask our MLM attorney if this violated or even brushed a “grey” area as it relates to pay-to-play and I gave you his responses above in previous post. With all due respect… you are not an MLM attorney, therefore, your assertion or interpretation is an opinion and you have your right to that opinion.
We (I) disagree wholeheartedly with your “opinion” and believe we’ve designed a fair, equitable, and legally compliant plan. Enough said.
MLM attorneys do not trump common-sense. If you’re offering pay to play, you’re offering to pay to play. It really is that simple
Ask for a refund.
There is no opinion involved. QI’s compensation plan has a pay to play element to it. That is a fact.
Again… and again… agree to disagree.
Not as long as someone can buy their way into commissions and affiliate-rank.
There’s nothing to disagree or agree on, it is what it is.
Again you have the right to assert that and it is your site and you obviously have the last word but that does not make it accurate, therefore, agreeing to disagree is the only option or alternative I have in this matter with you although I wish it was otherwise.
I’m getting tired of this.
1. Sign up to QI.
2. Buy my affiliate rank which also unlocks various commissions and bonuses within the compensation plan.
This is pay to play. Stop wasting my time.
In your opinion you are right… granted. In our opinion, our attorney’s opinion, your opinion is inaccurate based on the criteria I stated above.
If you would like to speak to our attorney for clarification and publish your conversation with him here… we invite you to do that… and actually challenge you to do that to be quite frank as this is an issue that bears more light and truth here in this forum.
The above post is devoid of opinion. Stop trying to redefine what I’m writing to fit your narrative.
And by all means, please name and shame the MLM attorney running around telling people pay to play is perfectly legal.
This sort of rubbish needs to be stamped out.
Why won’t you take my challenge to discuss this with our MLM attorney?? Seems a perfectly fair request seeing that you are so adamant that your opinion in this matter is, in fact, so matter of fact. What are you afraid of?? The truth?? Come on??
It is a reasonable request to take a few minutes and get a true real legal opinion on this matter and as it relates to the QiPAY Plan. Would love to see it documented here to support your assertions.
Please name and shame the MLM attorney who is running around telling their clients pay to play is perfectly legal.
I’m not interested in penis length contests with your legal representation. Common sense will always trump the opinion of someone whose fees you’re paying.
And what, your attorney doesn’t have the internet? They’re welcome to discuss the legality of pay to pay schemes right here, the same as anyone else is.
@ Art
So, after a dozen or so posts, it all comes down to a single point:
Does the QI pay plan let the distributor BUY their affiliate RANK? Is that an option?
Oh my goodness the arrogance of ignorance. (Ozedit: Offtopic derailing and attempt to take the discussion offsite removed. If you’re just going to rant and ignore questions, I think we’re done here.)
I am not interested in private phonecalls. And please spare me the reverse-psychology marketing BS. Your lawyer is welcome to enter into the discussion the same as anyone else is, to the mutual benefit of all readers.
Anyone conducting their due diligence into QI are able to look up the company’s compensation plan and verify the pay to play elements. What they make of that is up to them, but I maintain that it is a serious red flag that should not be ignored.
Making pay to play optional is neither here nor there.
I am starting to wonder if the attorney Mr. Meakin kept referring to is Gerald “I see no Ponzi” Nehra.
Given that this is a primary attack point used by Ackman on Herbalife, this seem to be quite ill-advised.
Translation: lower ranks can simply buy their way up the ranks (i.e. self-consume, no customer volume).
Is that a yes, or no? If you insist on “sort of”, please have your attorney friend cite a prior court decision that he relied on for his opinion.
Unlike most MLM participants, we’re not impressed by “because my attorney said so”. We’ve seen many cases where companies 1) ignore what attorney said, 2) attorney gave bad advice, 3) attorney playing word games. Many of these was proven in court.
You have to love the game that MLM attorneys play. First, they charge a consulting fee to review the marketing plans for their MLM clients. Then, when the client goes to court, they charge them another fee to defend them.
Art Meakin has been around the industry for a long time. He should already know about the Buy In/Pay to Play rules.
The FTC has an opportunity to INFORM everyone (set the record straight) as they investigate the Model being used by Herbalife and other MLM companies.
I hope they don’t take years to finish their investigation.
Art Meakin has clearly created a comp plan that has a major red flag though. Sadly, I am not sure he is even aware of it. Or worse, he is aware of it and continues to promote a Model that is Broken.
Selling over priced products via autoship to MOSTLY MLM distributors (and not customers) is a Broken Model.
Nothing wrong with that.
Potential customers are not retailable products or services. Neither the company nor the distributors can legally make any profit from selling potential customers.
The first thing Herbalife cleaned up after December 2012 was the lead sale to newly recruited distributors. They did it for obvious reasons = it would be impossible to defend in court.
Landing pages and eCommerce are marketing material, rather than retailable products or services.
So the distributors pay for the products, while the customers are paying for the shipping and handling?
That’s not a commissionable retail sale in MLM. You can’t pay commissions on gift certificates, coupons or vouchers. They are marketing tools rather than products.
Does it work? Do people become retail customers, and do they recommend the products to other retail customers in order to earn “reward points” themselves?
Most of your descriptions have been about “Systems”™ where distributors are offered to pay for a potential income, “systems” designed to attract customers or other distributors.
“Systems” are not retailable products or services = they are not commissionable in network marketing, but the company can charge a fee for using the material. The normal price is self cost = the people using the systems will only need to cover the expenses.
I don’t fault them for that. That’s the way US law works.
The problem I have is with “pseudo-compliance”. Instead of stating outright “this would never work, as you can’t put lipstick on a pig”, it’s more like “Well… what if we rename this, and add that, and hopefully nobody will notice this fine print here…”
A certain company under investigation for being a suspect ponzi scheme had a big MLM attorney as consultant, and changed the comp plan… The implemented solution is to pay people with PRODUCTS… then offer a “buyback”. I don’t know if the big shot attorney came up with that idea or he approved it, but that’s clearly a “word game” pseudo-compliance rather than a real one. And it’s going to end up with his “approval” on it.
A comp plan that was written as “it can be legal” is clearly on the wrong track already. it should be “it is legal vast majority of the time”
The MLM attorneys are either:
1. knowingly giving BAD ADVICE and then later collecting fees to defend their clients in court.
2. or, the Broken MLM Model ONLY works (short term, of course) when the Compensation has the Pay to Play aspect and both the lawyer and client know this upfront and move forward anyway.
In my opinion (for what it’s worth), I believe it is the latter.
I can accept that at the lowest level, there will be some small amounts of pay-to-play aspects, which would be covered by the refund period (as per Amway Safeguard Rules), so the affiliates don’t lose money.
The problem I have there is self-consumption. If one is encouraged to buy one’s way up the ranks and self-consume the products, there ain’t no refund, and that turns the whole thing into a recruiting game, and any downlines recruited would be also be self-consumers. This heavy blurring of customer vs. lowest-rank affiliate is a huge gray area and the most vulnerable aspect of MLM.
The “gifting” aspect of QI here is somewhat troubling without further details. According to Mr. Meakin, distributors can “pre-purchase” products which would then drop-shipped to prospective customers as samples.
I hope those don’t count as either PV or CV… They are NOT commissionable, as M_N said. Those are marketing costs.
You can agree to disagree on INTERPRETATION of the facts…
But what reasons have you provided for YOUR interpretation, other than “my attorney said so”?
@Art Meakin
What do those Promo-Paks contain?
From the article, “Recruitment Commissions”:
They contain the “positions” and the rights to earn higher commissions on some parts of the compensation plan, but what else do they contain?
(Ozedit: Dummy spit and repeated attempt to take discussion offsite removed)
Guys, it’s clear you’re not going to get any answers from Meakin. He’s only interested in ignoring the obvious pay to play element of QI and pushing his flawed arguments (“but my lawyer said…” etc.).
Here’s the gist of his dummy-spit above:
I removed the rest as it was just the typical antsy offtopic rant we get when someone gets upset their marketing spin isn’t being swallowed without question. There was nothing about his lawyer or any attempt to answer any of the questions put to him in the comment.
Art even ended the comment with the cliched “anyone reading this can call me for the real story” line. Cringe.
Sadly, this is what happens when know-it-all MLM marketers run into the brick-wall of common-sense logic. Too many years of marketing to sheep does appear to dull the mind.
Self-serving bias, Oz. We can be guilty of it too, but you, me, M_Norway, Hoss, and others don’t always see eye to eye. So we check each other. And we all have different areas of expertise.
There really aren’t any watchers of MLM, except us, the authorities, MLM lawyers (sometimes), and the MLM opponents like Fitzpatrick and Taylor.
However, discussion is a two-way street. Mr. Meakin have failed to even attempt to see things from our viewpoint: pay to play at higher level is a red flag, esp. when it can be done for 6 months. I think the Ikea Effect is what lead him to fail to accept out critique.