New York declares war on Herbalife
We’ve been seeing a lot of private industry back and forth on Herbalife, but not alot on the government side of things.
Sure we know that the FTC and FBI are investigating the company, but to date the specifics and status of those investigations remain a mystery.
Now, in a report published by New York Senator Jeff Klein and New York City Public City Advocate Letita James, the first official government-level opinion of Herbalife has been revealed.
And it’s not good.
Titled “The American Scheme: Herbalife’s Pyramid ‘Shake’down”, Klein and James report is an official city of New York publication, hosted on the New York State Senate website.
The report details several complaints from New York residents about Herbalife, and goes on to claim that ‘there are thousands of New York State residents who‘ are victims of the scheme.
One such resident was a Bronx real-estate agent who was pitched Herbalife on a potential $14,000 per month income.
Working as a real estate agent in 2007, the Bronxite was invited by a client to attend a meeting where she would be taught how to lose weight while operating a business that could generate $14,000 per month in income.
The Herbalife recruiter promised to assist her in converting her real estate clients into Herbalife members; with time, the recruiter promised, she would be able to earn financial rewards on sales generated by her recruits and continue to move up the Herbalife distribution hierarchy.
She would effectively create her own pyramid sales business by encouraging her recruits to bring in new members, which would provide her with profits based on their sales.
Ultimately, she was convinced to sign up as an Herbalife Independent Member.
To accelerate her path to the supervisory level with extra privileges, the resident made an initial $4,000 investment in product purchases, and after just one month, opened up a nutrition club costing her close to $10,000.
The above is your typical product-based pyramid scheme story, where affiliates are encouraged to spend thousands on products so their upline makes a quick buck.
The only way to recoup their losses is for those scammed to recruit others who also spend thousands of dollars on products when they sign up.
Retail is of course possible, but not viable – as typically revealed by a lack of company-wide retail activity taking place.
After five years of struggling to make her business thrive, the Bronxite had no other option but to give up.
In the end, the resident had suffered close to $100,000 in financial losses and tarnished her reputation as a real estate agent in New York City due to the lies she often shared with her clients for Herbalife recruitment purposes.
Sounding very similar to the FTC’s recently filed lawsuit against Vemma, Senator Klien and NYC Public Advocate James wholly blame Herbalife for these losses.
Herbalife International is an American multi-level marketing corporation that develops, markets, and sells nutritional products for weight loss and health enhancement.
Consumers who are convinced and pursue the business opportunity designed by the company are promised a low start up cost in exchange for inflated future income if they are able to recruit as many new members as possible.
Most vulnerable to this deceptive business opportunity are recent immigrants who came to the United States in pursuit of the American Dream.
New York State has one of the largest Latin American immigrant populations in the country that has been, and will continue to be, disproportionately victimized by Herbalife’s fraudulent practices.
This, from a US state Senator and the City of New York.
Compiling data from 56 victims, “key findings” found in the report are identified as follows:
- Since 2004, only 56 Herbalife victims in New York have been brave enough to file complaints against the company. Most victims are afraid of betraying family, friends, and neighbors.
- The 56 victims that have filed complaints reported nearly $1 million in financial losses ranging from $90 to $100,000. The average amount loss was approximately $20,000.
- Over 60 percent of new members make initial investments larger than the required $60 to $100 for the new member kit. The average initial investment is $1,800, but some are as high as $10,000.
- Herbalife distributors purport that supervisors can make as much as $20,000 in monthly income.
- Of 56 complaints analyzed, only eight victims received a check directly from Herbalife for their royalty claims. The average amount was $100.
To me, over 60% of new members spending large amounts of money on products is a dead give-away.
If one were to extrapolate that data company-wide, it’s pretty much a given that the flow of funds into Herbalife is by and large sourced from affiliates, as opposed to bona fide sales to retail customers (none of this self-reporting garbage Vemma tried to get away with).
But seeing as Herbalife refuse to make public their retail sales data (because they themselves intentionally refuse to track it), details from ‘undercover work performed in The Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn‘ will have to suffice.
Once lured into a nutrition club or the distributor’s home, the customer is offered a tasting of three Herbalife products for approximately $6.
First, the customer drinks an aloe-based drink to “clean out the digestive system,” then a tea to “help cut fat,” and lastly a shake that “contains a person’s daily need of nutrients.”
While consuming the products, the distributor shares testimonials describing ways in which Herbalife products have changed her life.
Often, distributors mention ways in which Herbalife products have helped them alleviate the effects of diseases and illnesses including chronic asthma, diabetes, and “rare ailments from Asia.”
After sharing superficial information about the products, Herbalife distributors transition into a discussion about the company’s business opportunity. At this time, the distributor describes the two primary forms of earning income as an independent member and eventually a supervisor:
(1) purchase the product at a discount and sell at a higher retail price to family, friends, and neighbors, and
(2) recruit new members into the business and earn royalties paid by Herbalife International based on their recruits’ sales.
Of course genuine sales to retail customers are not mentioned.
During the information session, current Herbalife members as well as new recruits sit through two to three hours of various presentations.
Each presentation is conducted by an Herbalife member that claims to have experienced enormous success.
The speakers share their testimonials, which often start with an immigrant story.
They inform recruits that after five years of hard work as an Herbalife distributor, they can earn up to $20,000 in monthly income if they can commit to start a membership and recruit new members.
What follows is the product-based pyramid hard-sell, apparently otherwise known as the “90 Day Plan”.
When describing the recruitment plan, labeled the “90 Day Plan,” the presenters scan over ways in which new members can accelerate to supervisory status.
Becoming a supervisor is heavily emphasized because as a supervisor, members can claim royalty fees on their recruits’ sales.
The speaker educates the audience on the definition of a royalty fee—comparing it to profit schemes used by actors and artists—and shares vague details of the “90 Day Plan.”
While in theory a 90 day plan would only require a new member to purchase the $60 to $100 new member kit, and then provides them with three months to recruit and sell $2,500 worth of products during two consecutive months or $4,000 worth of products in one month to obtain supervisory status, meaning they can claim royalty fees, this is not the case.
In fact, recruiters and presenters use the privilege of earning royalty fees as the sales pitch to encourage new members to become supervisors as quickly as possible.
A combination of overemphasizing royalty fees and sharing exorbitant monthly incomes urges new members to make an initial investment greater than the simple $60 to $100 for a member kit.
While some cannot make the full $4,000 investment that is required to automatically become a supervisor, others take the less financially burdensome route and make an initial $2,500 investment.
With $2,500 to $4,000 worth of products, new members must act fast to sell the products to receive a return on their investment.
Having already demonstrated the lack of retail viability by purchasing their own Supervisor status, you can guess how these Herbalife affiliates seek to recoup their own investment.
Yup, by recruiting new Herbalife affiliates who also spend $2500 to $4000 for Supervisor status.
And then these new recruits have to do he same, their recruit have to do the same and well hey… is that Christiano Ronaldo? Can I have an autograph? Man I love Herbalife…
The other key point that’s eye-opening is that losses between these 56 victims tops out at nearly a million dollars, yet only 8 received a payout check… for an average amount of just $100.
That is utterly ridiculous.
On the back of Klien and William’s report is the conclusion that ‘New York State must act now against Herbalife‘.
We have drafted legislation that would amend New York State General Business Law to better protect New York State residents.
The bill imposes stricter regulations on health product franchisors that will require Herbalife to provide a meaningful financial disclosure to its prospective distributors, require its marketing materials to be approved by the state Attorney General, and calls for Herbalife to increase supervision of its distributors to prevent unlawful and deceptive practices.
Whether all MLM companies in New York will be required to have marketing materials approved by the New York AG’s office or just Herbalife, is unclear.
Furthermore, opining that ‘regulation by (the) FTC (is) not enough‘, Klein and Williams write:
Herbalife International needs to be held accountable. For too long the company has masked an illegal pyramid scheme by advertising rules the company does not enforce.
That is why the Office of Senator Klein, supported by the New York City Office of the Public Advocate Letitia James and Make The Road New York, will introduce a Senate bill that will impose stricter regulations on multi-level marketing corporations that distribute health products using direct marketing strategies.
The legislative proposal is a comprehensive bill that will amend New York State General Business Law in relation to health product franchises.
This bill:
- Defines “health product” in New York State as nutrition, weight management, energy and fitness, and health improvement products for human consumption.
- Requires that health product franchisors in the state file an annual financial disclosure statement written in plain and understandable English and Spanish for the Attorney General to review before submitting to prospective franchisees that includes the number of franchisees in the state, average income claimed by franchisees, percentage of franchisees that fall within various amount parameters as determined by the New York State Attorney General, and the reported turnover rate of franchisees.
- Requires that prospective franchisees receive their offering prospectus in the primary language of the prospective franchisees.
- Requires that any pamphlets, circular, form letter, advertisement or other sales literature of advertising communication intended for prospective health product franchises be approved by the New York State Attorney General.
- Calls for health product franchisor engage in supervision of its franchisees to ensure compliance with this bill to prevent fraudulent, deceptive and unlawful acts by the franchisees.
If the bill is passed, what a precedent!
Make no mistake, this isn’t some Wall Street garbage playing out between hired lobbyists.
This is the end-result of an extensive undercover investigation into Herbalife’s business practices. The state of New York are is basically accusing the FTC of failing to adequately regulate the MLM industry, and so are taking matter into their own hands.
New York State must protect its working class Hispanic population who often come to the United States in pursuit of the American dream from predatory corporations like Herbalife International.
Those who immigrate to the United States and make their residence in New York State should be offered legitimate business opportunities to become entrepreneurs, not ones that will demoralize them and scam them of their life savings.
Companies like Herbalife International set up rules and regulations to avoid being categorized as running illegal pyramid schemes as defined by the Federal Trade Commission, but in reality the rules are not enforced and instead the company turns a blind eye to the illegal pyramid scheme it promotes.
The Office of Senator Jeff Klein, the New York City Office of the Public Advocate Letitia James, and Make The Road New York have accumulated evidence to show that Herbalife International is in fact running an illegal pyramid scheme masked behind their product sales.
In an effort to curtail Herbalife’s fraudulent practices, a Senate bill will be introduced that will require Herbalife to provide a more meaningful financial disclosure to its prospective distributors, require its marketing materials to be approved by the state Attorney General, and calls for Herbalife to increase supervision of its distributors to prevent unlawful and deceptive practices.
The significance of New York leading the way here is of particular interest, as earlier this year in March it was revealed a grand jury had been summoned in relation to the FBI’s Herbalife investigation.
The specific details of that grand jury proceeding have to date not been made public.
Whether or not Klein is privy to the details and status of the FBI’s investigation is also unclear.
As to how all of this ultimately plays out? Definitely stay tuned…
Shoutout to the BehindMLM readers who gave me a heads up on the source-material!
‘make my road’ new york, a non profit organisation, was ‘hired’ by bill ackman soon after he announced his billion dollar bet.
‘make my road’ marched the streets in The Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn, hauling herbalife distributors out their front doors. they did not receive much attention then, due to their alignment with bill ackman.
now, make my road’s ‘Findings’ are being presented again, this time around via an NY senator to add credibility to their ‘research’.
make no mistake, ackman has lobbied senators before and its happening again.
in 2014, an NY senator Adriano Espaillat, and a massachusetts senator Edward Markey were lobbied to write a complaint to the FTC to investigate herbalife.
but what, has ackman’s war lost its sting?
now, senator jeff klien wants to bypass the FTC as ‘not being enough’ and introduce a ‘new bill’ to address herbalife! i wonder what the senator thinks of the FTC actions against burnlounge, vemma etc. was FTC regulation ‘enough’ then but not ‘enough’ now?
do i sense frustration here, as the FTC is not doing the ‘bidding’ of a wall street short seller and his ‘hired’ advocate ‘make the road’?
besides, if all senator jeff klien is asking for is better discloures etc, why should anyone complain? that will affect the whole MLM industry and not just herbalife.
what can i say. best of luck to senator jeff klien with his new bill and all.
Frankly, there are so many ways to hit Herbalife I am surprised it took some legislators THIS LONG to hit back.
Those Herbalife lobbyists must be working overtime. Last time I checked, Herbalife outspending Ackman 10 to 1, with no less than FOUR big name lobbyist firms and some ex-FTC folks employed, but they can’t explain away the various violations forever.
The “nutrition clubs” which offers the 3 drinks combo are very likely illegal under state law, as that’s preparing food for sale and consumption. Wrote about that YEARS ago.
And without these clubs, which wasn’t even an officially sanctions Herbalife marketing mechanism (it was invented in Mexico and backfilled into the US) Herbalife would have virtually ZERO retail.
Even with these drinks as sales, Herbalife, like Vemma, is counting on fuzzy accounting for its “retail” claims, as most of the actual sales is to affiliates’ self consumption.
Check out saltydroid’s blog. He had been after Herbalife (and Vemma) much longer than we have. saltydroid.info
And the state of New York.
If the research is legit, Herbalife have a lot to answer for. Apparently they investigated over 70 Herbalife clubs.
Herbalife don’t want to publicly disclose a lack of retail sales.
They evidently want to wait for a Vemma style legal filings which lays it all out.
good for ‘make the road’! they should increase their ‘rates’!
but, the FTC/NY AG are investigating isn’t it? why make senators jump through hoops?
Regulatory investigation might shut down Herbalife at some point in the future.
In the meantime Senator Klein appears to want to strengthen disclosure requirements and MLM regulation at the state-level.
At least that’s what my impression was.
personally, i feel herbalife’s discount buying structure is exactly what the FTC likes.
they don’t want to go around tracking retail in autoship based programs. a fair priced product sold at various levels of discount, and some retail, reduces the regulatory headache of the FTC.
herbalife needed a clean up, and that’s been happening over the last two years.
Uh, Vemma.
yes vemma is the message to the industry to move on from autoship based programs or get the stick.
Well how do you think Herbalife affiliates go from spending $4000 when they sign up to losing tens of thousands of dollars by the time they realize they can’t recruit new affiliates?
Starts with A. Ends in what the Titanic was.
herbalife has less than 20% distributors at the supervisor level.
kliens report does not mention this. to create the impression that most herbalife distributors sign in with 4000$ is a lie.
How many they have is irrelevant.
How much of Herbalife’s revenue is derived by affiliates who don’t have any retail customers but are on autoship?
Therein lies the Vemma.
duh, a ‘get rich scheme’ which demands Five Years of Hard Work!
must be real easy to ‘recruit’ members with such^^ a spiel!!
klien might as well have bought a spade and attacked his own two feet.
You know the story, recruit a few who recruit a few who recruit a few etc.
It’s not exactly touted as five years of your own personal hard work.
yes, MLM has recruitment. damn.
yes in MLM you earn off other’s hard work too. doubledamn.
but ‘get rich’ in five years is not a ‘get rich scheme’ by any measure. klien ‘erred’.
You think monthly autoship recruitment income goes from $0 to $20,000 in a day after 5 years?
Cmon.
who cares.
my point is ‘get rich schemes’ are not Sold this way.
we don’t know. if the numbers are ‘wrong’ the FTC will act. they haven’t so far.
IMO herbalife will have the right numbers. they are not running their business on a wing and a prayer like boreyko of vemma.
herbalife has a lot of discount buying members in its ranks and sales to them are bonafide sales too.
Autoship-centric pyramid schemes on the other hand…
MLM with the majority of reps NOT on autoship on the other hand….
Affiliate revenue is affiliate revenue. Now you’re just making stuff up based on nothing.
If Herbalife had significant retail revenue they’d have long-since released the data.
I look forward to Vemma 2.0 at some point in the future.
says which case law?
MLM revenue has to be primarily sourced from product sales to end consumers.
why?
the FTC is investigating and if there were no retail numbers they would have gotten an injunction against herbalife by now.
just because herbalife wont confide in you, you cant make stuff up about their lack of retail.
Vemma.
Vemma.
$70 million something dollars in PR fees… or release a statement explaining Herbalife made $x in retail sales and $x from affiliates last year.
The writing is on the wall.
Pure speculation.
You have absolutely no way of knowing what anyone “would” do or have done
It CAN be true. Herbalife’s IDS can be misleading, and it most likely is.
Many of the low level 25% distributors are probably inactive, e.g. people who once signed up as distributors but dropped out.
* 25% discount means that they haven’t made any “qualifying purchases” for the higher discounts in the last two years (up to 23 months). Some of them may of course have bought an IBP in that year.
* 35% or higher discount means that the distributor have made a qualifying purchase in the last two years (up to 23 months).
Qualifying purchases “Discount Sliding Scale”:
25% none (purchase the IBP)
35% 500 Volume Points in one month (~$360)
42% 1000 Volume Points in one month (~$650)
50% 2500 Volume Points in 1 to 3 months (~$2,600)
Conclusion
The majority of the NSL (Non Sales Leaders) reported in the IDS can have been completely inactive for the last 12 months. A huge number of them can have been completely inactive for more than 2 years.
The FTC is dealing with a much larger problem with herbalife compared to Vemma. The scope of the complaints they’re getting from citizens, veterans, etc is huge — thousands of people filing complaints with the FTC who feel they’ve been defrauded by Herbalife.
Herbalife is bigger and more important than Vemma. The FTC is testing their strategy in court with Vemma, building precedent, and will use that to go after Herbalife.
From the 2013 IDS:
From the 2014 IDS:
The majority of Herbalife’s low level distributors seem to be completely inactive.
Some of them are registered with a downline, but they are probably former Sales Leaders who have dropped out of the program (92.4% of them didn’t make any purchases directly from Herbalife).
119,820 people had some type of identifiable activity in 2014
→ 71,870 were Sales Leaders with downline
→ 44,973 were Sales Leaders without downline
→ 2,977 were Non Sales Leaders eligible for commission
434,533 people didn’t have any identifiable activity in 2014
you are correct sir. we can both agree that in MLM the requirement is that revenue should be primarily sourced from product sales to end consumers.
vemma could show only approx 20% sales to end consumers. vemma’s affiliates who were self qualifying on autoship were not found to be end consumers.
herbalife’s very large base of members are not on any autoship and enjoy steep discounts to enjoy for self consumption, or for profit at retail.
due to herbalife’s levels of discounts, resale to downline affiliates is a profitable proposition.
it may be argued that herbalife members join up to ‘try’ the business opportunity.
but, as they cannot qualify for commissions on any non autoship purchases they make, their ‘primary’ motivation is self consumption and retail sales.’primary’ is the operative word here.
in short, herbalife NSL ‘members’, under current case law are bonafide end consumers
saying herbalife has no retail sales because it wont publicize the data is also ‘pure speculation’.
either nobody should speculate, or all can speculate. keep the playing field even.
The irony being that 90% of those won’t renew next year. So truly no identifiable activity…
where are these thousands of complaints? how come the press and FTC missed them? most of all, how did ackman miss them? ackman spent hard cash trying to find herbalife victims for two years and turned up with almost nothing.
a small percentage of herbalife distributors responded to the bostick class action suit in california. this also shows the lack of ‘victims’.
lets not be dramatic but stick with facts.
this is pure speculation on your part. vemma and herbalife are poles apart in the structure of their scheme. but i can see that herbalife detractors are trying to hang onto any thread of hope they can find, and i sympathize.
even NY senator jeff klien has given up on the idea of the FTC shutting down herbalife. now he wants the new york state to ‘regulate’ herbalife.
he thinks it bad and deceptive and this and that, but not bad enough to be shut down, ie he’s not saying herbalife is Illegal.
my argument is that the herbalife scheme is Not an Illegal Pyramid Scheme.
my argument is limited to the ‘legality’ and not the ethics of the herbalife business.
yes, they are not on any autoship, so you cannot track their activity.
they purchase product for self consumption and presumably retail some product as there is a healthy retail margin, and there is no other realistic way for them to earn any profit.
they joined with a refundable kit, are not on any autoship and get products at a discount, with buyback safety. if people need more safety than this, they should move back in with their parents.
all herbalife needs to show is that retail sales+ sales to these majority members is >50%.
easy peasy IMO.
this para from senator jeff kleins report is a laugh riot:
so, a senator, a public advocate and a ‘suspect’ non profit organisation have set up their own private little court and declared that ‘herbalife is in FACT running an Illegal Pyramid Scheme masked behind their product sales’.
and what do these three musketeers propose?
they wish to pass a Bill to Regulate this Illegal Pyramid Scheme they have uncovered, because the FTC with it’s silly case law based definitions of pyramid schemes, just does not have the ammunition to shut down herbalife!
all the ponzi/pyramid schemes of NY should ask senator jeff klein to regulate their income disclosures and marketing material too. as long as they provide honest disclosures [you will lose all yer money!] they can be regulated by NY state and not be shut down by the FTC.
if ONE illegal pyramid scheme can be allowed to work under NY supervision, its only Fair to allow the rest too!
and to think jeff klein and letitia james are ‘lawyers’! regulate a pyramid scheme indeed!!
klein&james on the floor of NY senate: this bloody FTC is not shutting the illegal pyramid scheme herbalife down, so please please may we regulate it?
ps: klein has not said one friggin word about herbalife’s ‘lack’ of retail. neither does the ‘regulation’ he proposes, ask for retail data. just saying.
@anjali
The FTC injunction against Vemma has nothing to do with “end consumers”. Vemma affiliates are required to have 51% retail.
Do you think Herbalife’s sales revenue is 51% retail across the board?
Yeah… neither do I.
Engage brain please:
Running a product-based pyramid scheme with no retail = “unlawful and deceptive practices”.
Basically he wants demonstratable evidence that Herbalife are enforcing retail over recruitment, not just relying on Vemma-style self reporting (a complete joke).
the court injunction is specific to vemma and does not mean that the entire MLM industry has to have 51% retail.
the FTC case against vemma has clarified that self qualifying autoship is a no go, and that such affiliates cannot be categorized as end consumers. this is the part that affects the entire MLM industry.
i think herbalife’s sales revenue is >51% from end consumers, in accordance with case law requirements.
nope. klein did not specifically say anything about herbalife’s retail or lack of it . neither does his proposed bill require herbalife to provide retail disclosures.
by “unlawful and deceptive practices” kleins report mainly focuses on herbalife distributors misrepresenting the herbalife opportunity, and latinos losing money.
Which is irrelevant, just as it is in the current Vemma litigation.
Retail sales or product-based pyramid scheme.
Right. Maybe Klein will get Herbalife to disclose the sexual preferences of its affiliates. Maybe their eating habits… or how about what cars they drive.
/facepalm
The Vemma litigation is heading towards retail-orientated precedents for the MLM industry. But uh yeah, Herbalife will be spared. No worries…
no, vemma has not made ‘end consumers’ irrelevant at all. vemma following up on burnlounge, has just fleshed out the ‘conditions’ for being a bonafide end consumer, some more.
herbalife members are bonafide end consumers.
klein can ask for any disclosures he likes [he wrote the bill after all], but he hasn’t asked for herbalife retail sales disclosures.
Meanwhile in Vemma, Judge Tuchi rejected any end-consumer arguments and demanded retail incentives in Vemma’s revised compensation plan.
Ditto 51% retail revenue or no commission payouts at all.
Welcome to the future of MLM.
yes, judge tuchi rejected vemma’s new compensation plan for failing to meet the vemma ‘specific’ court injunction and due to vemma’s past behavior.
judge tuchi has not rejected the entire body of MLM case law which requires majority product sales to ‘end consumers’ and which does not use the term ‘retail consumers’.
Like I said, retail or product-based pyramid scheme.
Welcome to the future of MLM.
“Completely inactive” means that they didn’t purchase anything directly from Herbalife, and didn’t recruit anyone.
Appr. 29,750 new people joined Herbalife in 2014 (in USA). A similar number of people (29,500) became inactive.
Distributors_____________ 2013______ 2014____Growth
SL with downline________71 500_____71 850______350
SL without downline_____ 45 100_____45 000_____ -100
NSL with downline_______45 000_____39 200____-5 800
NSL without downline___ 363 000____398 300____35 300
Total distributors_______ 524 600____554 350____29 750
===========================================
Active in 2014:
SL with downline______71 850
SL without downline___ 45 000
NSL eligible___________ 3 000
total active__________ 119 850
New distributors_______29 750
Max active__________ 149 600
=======================
The number of active distributors was between 120,000 and 150,000.
“Active” = they bought something directly from Herbalife in 2014.
Inactive in 2014:
Total distributors______554 350
total active___________119 850
max inactive_________ 434 500
new distributors_______ 29 750
minimum inactive_____ 404 750
========================
The number of inactive distributors was between 400,000 and 435,000.
“Inactive” = they didn’t buy anything directly from Herbalife in 2014. Most of them didn’t buy anything in 2013 either.
(Ozedit: Offtopic Wall St. speculation removed.)
like i said, product sales to end consumers is the legal parameter for MLM schemes.
welcome to reality and you can thank me later.
You’re both talking past each other, but you seem to get off topic Anjali and are sometimes condescending. (“my perspective is right; you can thank me later”)
I think we can all agree: the FTC and other regulatory agencies see a problem here that they’re investing significantly to try to address. They have tens of thousands of pages of complaints from consumers to address — that volume cannot be ignored. These two statements are fact.
From there, we surmise the FTC will push for new rules. Vemma seems to be accepting that there will be new rules, but is pushing to shape them.
The questions raised include how the rules will work and how they’ll be enforced.
It seems to me that the FTC wants to ensure that users entering an MLM buy product only to directly use or directly sell. They want to ensure that people aren’t buying products first to qualify for anything and aren’t buying products primarily as a business opportunity (ie: a supervisor level like herbalife sells).
Your perspective may be: these guys are selling products that people want, and additionally the sellers can get commission. That’s fine, but there are a few things you need to fairly consider.
(1) At their suggested retail prices, the products aren’t competitive.
(2) The products aren’t somehow better than other marketplace products.
(3) Paying commissions up a chain doesn’t qualify as “cutting out the middleman” because then you just have more middlemen. Which is what increases the price.
(4) If a lot of people are being strongly encouraged to “qualify for everything” and “start out as supervisor if you’re serious” then people are often buying product before they need it, before they know they can sell it.
(5) These companies could gather the information necessary to be more transparent: they’re *choosing* not to. If they’re choosing not to then they’ve determined that gathering the information isn’t helpful to their business.
On point 5, you have to wonder why it wouldn’t be helpful to have that information. Most businesses gather as much information as possible about their end users, how they buy, why they buy, what kind of customers they are, etc.
This better helps them reach that demographic. If the end user demographic is irrelevant to a company, then the question raised is “what’s up with this sales mechanism?”
My perspective: the sales mechanism isn’t related to the product as much as it is related to the business op, therefore they don’t need that information.
yes i agree that the FTC have a pile of complaints to address.
i did not agree with your contention in post#26 that – ‘thousands of people filing complaints with the FTC who feel they’ve been defrauded by Herbalife’.
yes, the FTC does not want commissions paid on joining packages or when majority affiliates are on autoship. this is to prevent losses arising from inventory loading and tp prevent endless chain recruitment.
the FTC has nothing against ‘autoship’ per se, especially when a small percentage of affiliates subscribe to it [amway -25%, herbalife – approx 15%]
it seems to me that people get carried away with their opinions, if the court/FTC shut down vemmas autoship program then everyone goes – oh there cant be autoship anymore!
if the court/FTC finds vemma affiliates downline sales to other affiliates unacceptable then everyone goes – oh there cant be downline sales anymore!
without being condescending, i most humbly submit sir, that one-shoe-fit-all conclusions should not be jumped to carelessly.
recruitment and self consumption are a part of MLM and are not going Anywhere. the FTC and courts accept ‘right’ recruitment and ‘right’ self consumption.
^^general sweeping statement, which is difficult to respond to. the court settlement order in the bostick/herbalife class action found evidence that herbalife distributors were selling products at full SRP:
“…because evidence obtained in discovery* “suggested that some distributors successfully resold Herbalife products at the full suggested retail price, including all costs of shipping and handling, such that these distributors suffered no loss from the alleged misrepresentations”.
^^general opinion which is difficult to respond to. various review sites have put herbalife diet shakes on their list of preferred brands, so there are alternate views to your general opinion.
^^uneducated opinion. there are high costs to convey products to consumers, and whether the commissions are paid to a handful of distributors or many distributors does not matter if the retail price is comparable to similar products available. overpriced products will show no retail and the MLM will be reduced to a product based pyramid. this is why retail is very important in MLM.
you are very correct. if most affiliates are purchasing large amounts of inventory to ‘qualify’ the company sales data will expose them as an inventory loading scheme where most affiliates will lose money. herbalife has less than 15% affiliates at supervisor level.
herbalife has commissioned reputed survey firms to study their affiliate/customer behaviors, and the court in the bostick/herbalife class action accepted and relied on these surveys to conclude that many herbalife distributors join to selfconsume products at a discount.
my perspective is that the sales mechanism should be related to BOTH the product and the business op in a balanced way.
the good thing about perspective is that we can all have one,and the saving grace is that the law is above personal perspectives.
MLM caselaw: commissions should be derived primarily from product sales to end consumers.
you can thank me later 🙂
According to Herbalife’s 10-K Annual Report for 2014, Herbalife had 86,129 Sales Leaders in North America (5 countries) at the end of February 2015 — after the inactive ones had been removed from the list.
“Inactive”
1. didn’t qualify with minimum 4,000 accumulated Volume Points in 2014
2. and didn’t re-qualify with 4,000 Volume Points in January 2015
Removed Sales Leaders were active in 2013 with minimum 4,000 accumulated Volume Points in purchase directly from Herbalife. They were inactive in the whole year of 2014 = less than 4,000 accumulated Volume Points.
People will first forfeit their organization if they have been inactive for 12 months and don’t re-qualify in January. They will first be removed as Sales Leaders the following year if they remain inactive for 12 additional months.
an article in the wall street journal dated 29 jan,2016, reports that two criminal investigations into herbalife have reached a deadend. this article is accessible only via a subscription, but seekingalpha has reported on this article:
seekingalpha.com/news/3068536-ackman-herbalife-probes-fizzle
the WSJ article says:
so, if the NY AG ‘s office and the FBI have found ‘significant revenue from actual customers’, will the FTC really find anything different? also of note is the usage of the term ‘actual customers’ and not ‘retail customers’.
now what will senator klein do? is he going to declare that the NY AG office and the FBI are ‘not enough’ too?
Wasn’t sure what to make of the WSJ claims.
US regulators don’t comment on open investigations. WSJ are quoting “sources” and everybody else is quoting the WSJ.
Putting it in the “probably suss” basket for now.
Herbalife says it is in talks with FTC; outcome uncertain
finance.yahoo.com/news/herbalife-says-talks-ftc-outcome-231421915.html
Thanks for the heads up!
I’m calling it, the FTC’s investigation into Herbalife is going to conclude one way or another this year.