Zeek Rewards CEO Paul Burks lying about sanctions?
Roughly three weeks ago now Zeek Rewards members in Serbia, Slovenia, Belarus, Egypt, Croatia and Macedonia woke up to find their Zeek Rewards account deactivated.
No explanation was given for almost a week, whereupon Zeek Rewards support staff started to mention “sanctions” were in effect for members in the six named countries above:
We do not have total knowledge of what happened. What I do know is that it is something with your countries government policies (not the Serbian people itself), that has required us to not list your country anymore.
Obviously a woefully inadequate response when members’ accounts had been terminated, the mention of “government policies” as the reason for the bans raised some concerns.
Of particular interest was the inclusion of Slovenia, who are a member of the European Union. Business wise, the EU operates as a central body for all member states so with the banning of Slovenia, one would assume that if it was indeed for political reasons, that all European Union member states would be banned.
This however was clearly not the case.
As the discussion continued, Zeek Rewards management maintained a blanket of silence until CEO Paul Burks finally put out an explanation over at the Zeek Rewards news blog.
Two weeks after members had been banned from participating in Zeek Rewards, Burks wrote
I just want to set the record straight about this unfortunate situation.
The United States Government has established an Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) through the US Treasury Department. This Federal agency maintains a list of “sanctioned countries” that is published on this website:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx
Under US law it is illegal for a US based individual or company to do business with individuals of companies in those countries. The penalties for violating these sanctions range from very large fines up to 30 years imprisonment.
When we became aware that there were affiliates in our system who were from these prohibited countries we had no choice but to remove them from the program.
This explanation sounded official enough and for many Zeek Rewards members, they now considered the matter sufficiently clarified by the company and closed.
I myself actually visited the website Burks linked to and found no trace of explicit sanctions against the countries Zeek had banned members from.
A few days after Burks’ press release was put out, BehindMLM reader Colsta took things further and actually emailed OFAC regarding Zeek Rewards’ claimed sanctions and a few days later received the following reply:
Dear xxxx
The U.S. does not currently maintain any sanctions against Slovenia. For a complete list of sanctions programs and OFAC’s Specially Designated Nationals List, please see the following links.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx
Best regards,
OFAC Compliance
With OFAC confirming that the US does not maintain any sanctions against Slovenia, this pretty much blew Paul Burks’ official explanation out of the water.
But what about the other five named countries? Seeking further clarification on the matter, I fired off the following email to OFAC:
Hi there,
I wish to make an enquiry into any possible liability of running a US based internet marketing company in the countries of Serbia, Slovenia, Belarus, Egypt, Croatia and Macedonia.
If I run a US-based online business and allow members from these countries to participate, are there any liabilities (criminal or otherwise) on my part as far as the US government is concerned?
Thanks for your time.
And here’s the reply:
Dear Sir or Madam,
OFAC does not currently administer comprehensive sanctions programs against the countries listed in your email below.
Please note that OFAC does administer targeted sanctions against Belarus as well as the Western Balkans. Individuals or entities that are the subject of those targeted U.S. sanctions are contained on the Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons (“SDN”) List. It can be found on our website at www.treasury.gov/ofac.
Moreover, any entity that is 50% or more owned by an SDN is also the target of OFAC sanctions.
OFAC does not require that U.S. persons screen against SDN list. Our regulations do require, however, that U.S. persons not conduct business with any individual or entity that appears on the SDN list.
When and how often screening occurs is generally based on the inherent risk of a situation or transaction. OFAC may administer civil penalties to U.S. persons in violation of OFAC regulations.
Activity that may be considered criminal would be referred to the Department of Justice.
Finally, depending on the products/services offered, there may be other agencies of the U.S. government that may have other regulations that may need to be observed.
Regards,
OFAC Compliance
First and foremost, of the six countries Zeek Rewards banned members from, OFAC has explicitly clarified that no blanket sanctions exist against nationals from these countries.
This is in direct contrast to the explanation Paul Burks cited:
Under US law it is illegal for a US based individual or company to do business with individuals of companies in those countries.
OFAC do maintain a ‘Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Person’ (SDN) list, however this is the explicit targeting of individuals, rather than nationals from any given country. And in any case, OFAC clearly state they do not require US person(s) to screen against this list.
OFAC themselves track this list based on transactions with said watched persons and only if the transaction is considered “criminal activity” does OFAC refer the matter to the Department of Justice.
The non-requirement for US person(s) to screen against this list explains the abundance of other US-based person(s) that conduct business in Serbia, Slovenia, Belarus, Egypt, Croatia and Macedonia without problem.
Just so we’re clear here, Burks and Zeek Rewards didn’t attempt to ban targeted individuals based on the SDN list, they instead outright banned any and all nationals from the six countries from participating in Zeek Rewards. And they did so citing US laws and sanctions that do not exist.
With Paul Burks’ official explanation on the banning of Zeek Rewards members from Serbia, Slovenia, Belarus, Egypt, Croatia and Macedonia clearly at odds with OFAC’s clarification, once again the onus falls on the company to come clean and explain the actual reasons they banned members in the first place.
If it was nothing to do with US law and sanctions, why exactly after allowing them to participate for over a year and in some cases no doubt amass thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of VIP points that were generating daily ROIs that needed to be paid out, would Zeek Rewards suddenly ban these members from participating in the scheme?
And furthermore why would they then cite reasons explaining why that are false and try to hide behind sanctions that do not exist?
The final paragraph of OFAC’s response to my query might explain it:
Finally, depending on the products/services offered, there may be other agencies of the U.S. government that may have other regulations that may need to be observed.
Except for the fact that Paul Burks explicitly mentions OFAC and did not cite any other government agency. The question of why Burks cited OFAC and sanctions that do not exist remain a mystery.
The ball is in your court Zeek Rewards, explain yourselves.
I would like to state for the record that I’m not accusing Burks of lying, merely hoping that by raising the question of the gross inconsistencies between his explanation and current US law that a more substantial and accurate explanation of Zeek Rewards’ actions will be forthcoming.
Failing that… readers as always can draw their own conclusions.
Footnote: The six named countries (apart from Slovenia) have not been explicitly named by Zeek Rewards. However Paul Burks in his press release acknowledged the existence of “banned countries”.
The six named countries in this article were removed from the list of countries members are able to sign up under when they join Zeek Rewards and additionally members from the six countries were banned.
Zeek Rewards are welcome to clarify this matter on which countries have been banned but to date they have failed to do so.
Nonetheless, with the removal of Serbia, Slovenia, Belarus, Egypt, Croatia and Macedonia from the list of countries Zeek Rewards members are able to sign up from occuring at the same time they banned member accounts, ascertaining which banned countries Burks is referring to is straight-forward enough.
Excellent summary, Oz. It summarizes the issues objectively and referneces actual correspondence from multiple Zeek corporate sources and multiple OFAC responses.
I am waiting for the Troy Dooly apology, or at this point will accept a “clarification”. BehindMLM and its contributors have been on top of this issue and all of the critical analysis provided to date have been spot on and proven correct.
Troy continues to hint at different possible reasons for mass account deactivation, like fraud and the FTC penny auction warning, but none of these have anything to do with sanctions or correlate with anything in Paul Burks’s clarification, or Zeek customer service responses, or the OFAC itself.
I simply wonder how Troy Dooly feel now, as Troy help “defend” ZeekRewards by posting that “Is FTC warning cause of ZeekRewards suspend international affiliates” on the 11th, only to have Burks issue something else that make him look like an idiot, only that Burks’ explanation makes even LESS sense?
Besides, FTC decision only affects people in the US. Why would it affect INTERNATIONAL affiliates?
Oz your a complete idiot. Why would Zeek ban countries that are pumping money into the company.
Its funny how the people with the best reputations in the industry have a high regard for paul burks and zeek.Have you spoken to Dr Keith Lagos? Have you spoken to anyone besides yourself?
He’s still a strong believer in the U.S. Constitution, outdated sanctions, cybercrime gangs trying to infiltrate the MLM-industry, and most other theories that pops up.
His blog is meant to be entertaining, in addition to cover MLM updates of interest for ‘insiders’, while we mostly cover stuff for ‘outsiders’ (in having a critical viewpoint).
Like most other sources on the internet, it’s usually wise to filter some of the information found on his blog, and only use the information you are interested in.
I would have been busy for days if I had accepted his other theories about the banning, all the other possible laws involved (Patriot Act, RICO Act, Banking Laws, FTC warnings, etc.).
I would have been busy for WEEKS if I had tried to reply to the suggestions about possible laws. It was better to ignore his theories.
@steveamenta
So you’re suggesting they weren’t pulling their weight and contributing financially to the Ponzi, so Zeek got rid of them?
@steveamenta
Your answer is a deflection. Why not address the issue at hand? It’s very simple.
1. Paul Burks said 6 countries were banned due to US government sanctions.
2. Paul Burks specifically links to the OFAC where US sanctions against countries or individuals/companies are listed.
3. Oz and another BehindMLM reader contact OFAC and they said there are NO sanctions for those 6 countries.
4. Even prior to the official response from OFAC, readers here have mentioned other inconsistencies, such as why would Zeek Rewards be subject to a US sanction for countries like Sloveina but the all the major Internet companies with affiliates (Google, Amazon, eBay, Commission Junction, Linkshare, ShareASale) all do business there. And companies that handle internet financial transactions such as PayPal (who is very conservative, e.g. they banned all Zeek Rewards payments), do business in these countries?
You are trying to deflect analysis away from Zeek’s actions and focused on a hypothetical. We have no idea how much revenue these 6 countries originally brought to Zeek, and we don’t know how much liability Zeek has in paying out existing account balances. But whether those numbers are low, high, or neutral, it’s completely inconsequential to the discussion.
– Zeek did X (banned affiliates)
– Zeek said they did X because of Y (US sanctions)
– Every possible analysis says X can never lead to Y
Only Paul Burks can explain how he went from X to Y?
Either they are don’t know what they are doing and made a bad decision, or they are lying outright.
That is a question you need to ask Burks. The reason he gave is, frankly, bull****.
Lagos is PAID for his work with Zeek. That tells me nothing without context, like which companies have Lagos worked with before, and so on and so forth. You are IMPLYING that he only works with reputable companies. That is not proven.
And it’s spelt with two G’s, something Zeek seems to not understand.
http://www.nmbj.com/about/publisher.asp
Yeah, it’s funny. That’s my impression, too.
It makes me wonder which one of them who recommended the banning of 6 countries, using the OFAC-argument?
A couple of people have sent e-mails to OFAC. It’s not exactly “spoken to”, but it’s quite similar. They did NOT check OFAC’s reputation in the industry first.
We don’t consider OFAC’s lack of reputation in the industry to be a problem here, because “correct authority” seemed to be more important than reputation.
It’s also in indication of bull**** when the stories keep changing.
First it’s “it’s not use, it’s THOSE governments’ policies”
Then it’s “it’s our own OFAC”
What’s next? Aliens?
I’ve been in Zeek Rewards for close for 8 months – got banned for no reason, no explanation.
I have one more Zeek Rewards check to clear and it would be cleared on the 27th April 2012.
After that date, Mr Paul Burks and his cronies can go straight to ****ing hell!!!
I’m sorry to hear of your troubles. Might I ask you what country you’re in? It might be interesting if you lived in a country that isn’t on the established list of banned countries. From the website link your name here I might wonder if you were a Pacific islander.
(Embarrassed for having typed “Pacific” when he meant “Caribbean”.)
I’ve posted my own analysis of ZeekRewards here:
http://kschang.hubpages.com/hub/Analyzing-ZeekRewards-is-it-a-legal-and-viable-business-and-can-it-provide-long-term-income-for-you
My conclusion haven’t changed: it’s a “business” that wants your MONEY, not your hard work. Thus, it is not a business.
WOW! there is a lot to cover, and since this is not a post about me period, it would be unprofessional to turn the subject to something other than the topic Oz posted on.
However, I will hit a couple of points that are relevant.
1. @Jimmy, Exactly what am I suppose to apologize for?
2. @Jimmy, Everything I issue I have brought up does affect Zeek, the affiliates, and other penny auction firms which are also battling these issues. The only thing I have not done is decide that Zeek is a scam. I am still NOT convinced of that issue.
3. As for what the OFAC response that is a canned response, and a very good one. I have yet to see anyone post on if any of the affiliates in (whatever) countries have been banned, are on the individual list.
To date there has been plenty of guessing, on what countries based on purported CS responses from Zeek (No one is willing to send me any screen shots of their trouble tickets or the responses), and in reviewing Paul Burks response, he stated another issue, which none of you seem to want to address.
The affiliates banned seem to have had their accounts established and paid for by U.S. based affiliates. This in and of itself, is a whole other issue which falls under the U.S. Tax code. If any international affiliate is receiving or has received money from inside the USA, then they MUST file a W-8 to notify the Internal Revenue Service.
Maybe folks would be better off if they were to fully understand doing business with U.S. based individuals and entities before just having folks just sign them up.
3. @K Chang, I feel great. And to answer your question, since Zeek is inside the USA and the FTC controls the consumer protection of all people dealing with a US based company, it becomes an issue for any affiliate, not just a U.S. based affiliate.
Sames rings true, if a foreign corporation does business with U.S. citizens. Which is why I caution U.S. based individuals with doing business internationally, with any company located in a tax haven.
4. @K Chang, you are correct, I am a very strong believer in the US Constitution! As for my blog being entertaining… Not sure about that. But I do hope people find value in what we post and in what others in and around the community comment on! By the way, feel free to ignore any theory I post.
But so far the theories are holding water based on the information we have seen and heard from in and around the penny auction niche. Does it fully apply to Zeek? Who knows for sure. But if you read all of Oz’s posts, it sure seems some of them do.
5. @Everyone… so far I have seen written about six countries banned. I have seen folks talk about up to 500 affiliates suspended. Yet ig going through Oz’s site, my site and other forums, I do not see anything close to 500 affiliated talking about the situation, and no one has been able to show viable documentation to any of this.
Nor does anyone want to bring up the fact, Zeek is paying back refunds. I see people trying to defend their position by calling their a ponzi, and getting rid of people not pulling their weight. But, I have never read any court papers on a ponzi who paid refunds to folks outside the scheme. Seriously, why would any “ponzi” pay to outsiders when they need the cash to carry on the ponzi?
As for the asinine comment on Dr. Laggos… Yes he is a paid consultant. However, with a little due diligence, it is easy to see his reputation as an expert in his field is second to none.
Although other great folks have been known to associate with questionable companies or people, When you put all the paid consultants and legal team that is involved, the Red Haring you bring up doesn’t hold water.
@Troy — And why would ZeekRewards NOT give a list of which countries are affected, given that it’s been WEEKS that this had happened? Why does the story keep changing?
First Customer Support says it’s due to individual countries’ policies NOT week. Then Burks points to OFAC, except that doesn’t even compute.
Can you please ask Dawn or Paul on what the **** is going on over there?
Given that Burks gave an explanation that blows your idea out the water, I am wondering if you just grabbed that out of… thin air.
This severe LACK of transparency is HURTING ZeekRewards. People in OTHER countries are worried if they are next on the hit list. People’s reputations (those recruiting and Burks and ZeekRewards itself) are at stake. It’s not just the silence, but the SHIFTING EXPLANATIONS. And you didn’t help by offering yet ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNOFFICIAL EXPLANATION.
We want the real story, and you could have gotten that from them instead of offering your own speculation.
For implying that Oz and readers here were wrong, when everything we’ve said about sanctions has been true to date.
On the other hand, everything that Paul Burks and Zeek customer service have said OFAC specifically and “sanctions” in general make no sense, and evidence provided by OFAC’s response further refutes any notion of sanctions against the countries in question.
You don’t find it an amazing coincidence that as soon as reports starting coming in on banned countries, exactly SIX COUNTRIES were no longer available for registration on Zeek Rewards registration page?
Please tell us which countries you think were banned, if not the 6 listed in this post? And if there were countries OTHER THAN those 6 listed, how come they haven’t been removed from the Zeek Rewards registration page?
You ask for evidence. Zeek’s own changes to its affiliate registration page is circumstantial evidence.
And how do tax implications apply to only the 6 banned countries? Wouldn’t that apply to EVERY country? Again, Troy, you continue to deflect and speculate on tangential issues rather than address the issue at hand.
1. 6 countries were banned. You said there was no “proof”, there has been plenty posted here. The level of “proof” you want with actual screenshots you’ll have to ask those here from the banned countries.
Do you really dispute that people from Slovenia and Croatia DIDN’T have their accounts banned? There are a handful of comments on Zeek’s Facebook page as well (they last until Zeek deletes them). Have you asked for either of the banned affiliates posting here or those on Facebook for data?
Just because you haven’t seen proof doesn’t mean that you can’t analyze the weight of the evidence from comments from many affiliates here, on MMG, TalkGold, and Facebook.
2. Paul Burks cites OFAC as reason for banning. But OFAC has zero sanctions against those 6 countries.
Until you can address those two issues, every thing else you say about tax codes, and FTC warnings against Penny Auctions are irrelevant.
Refunds for the initial investment, how is that fair? If you purchased Apple or Google stock 10 years ago and never cashed out, can I just pay you a refund for your initial investment?
To refute your point specifically, IT HASS BEEN brought up here – that Zeek is offering refunds. It has been discussed how the offer is completely unfair (refund seed money after 1 year of growth + daily ad placement), that the offer was made until 10 days after account deactivation and protest activity on forums, and still requires the individual to apply for it rather than just be given automatically.
ZeekRewards would know. You should ask them. However, Burks specifically stated “banned countries”, except OFAC does NOT ban countries. Thus, that is a problem. This “canned response” raises MORE questions than it answers.
Then it’s NOT a country ban, but a PAYMENT METHOD ban. Why would Burks say it involves “banned countries”?
If ZeekRewards are worried, it should be banning ALL International affiliates, so why only six nations disappeared from their list of nations that can join? What makes those six nations different from the rest?
That’s not relevant. It’s clear SOME people are banned, and ZeekRewards is maintaining a brick wall and refuse to divulge the scope and reason of this ban, except Burks specifically said “banned countries”. So there’s more than one country. The number of affiliates involved will have to be disclosed by ZeekRewards.
It was brought up here several times. The question is… If Zeek is only refuding the bids and monthly membership, it is clear it is NOT compensating members for any “work” done. So what exactly are the members joining up for?
We’re NOT doubting Mr. Laggos’ reputation. We are doubting ZeekRewards’ actions AFTER Laggos and Grimes having given their advice to Burks, on WHY those actions are necessary.
@Troy
No it isn’t. I asked them very specific questions and got a very specific response.
Burks himself mentioned “banned countries”, throwing out the “individual list” idea. Furthermore it was noted that six countries had simultaenously vanished from the countries you can select you’re from when signing up for Zeek Rewards at the time members were reporting they had been banned.
There’s no guesswork here, the six named countries were removed from the sign up list whereas they had been there previously.
Uh, what were you just now saying about guessing?
Burks explicitly stated:
And that is the reason he cites for terminating the accounts. The mention of US based affiliates signing people up is only stated in reference to refunds:
Burks does not state this is the reason they were banned, instead it’s solely attributed to the fact they came from ‘these prohibited countries‘ (based on prohibitions that do not exist).
Cmon Troy, you’re not going to infer that because 500 members didn’t come screaming onto the internet that it didn’t happen now are you?
Most people who participate in these shady schemes remain quiet when they go bust. We see it all the time on here, people going on about how X company is going to be the next greatest thing… only to take their squeeze pages offline and dissappear when the company fails (talking about obvious scams here like ZR, not the legit companies).
Easy, because the initial investment in Zeek Rewards is a fraction of the returns they had to pay out to these members.
If you join as a free member and do the slow investment thing, you’re paying what, $10 a month or something ins’t it? In a year that’s a total investment of <$150… meanwhile if you sign up a few members blahblahblah ZR could find themselbves paying you out a ROI much greater than the $150 you put in.
And due to the fact point balances increase exponentially… that return is only going to get bigger.
That’s why you remove a bunch of accounts and then claim it was because of sanctions that don’t exist.
Wonder what Zeek Rewards will do when all these Asian and Russian free members signing up recently grow sizable point balances that need large returns paid out on…
You all owe Troy an apology….check out the latest news on his blog…haha
http://mlmhelpdesk.com/breaking-mlm-news-nmb-breaks-story-on-zeek-reward-income-disclosure-statement-customer-to-affiliate-ratios/
Already replied to it (comment waiting for moderation).
Regarding the customers number, well duh. You need to create customers to dump points onto. This only increases as point balances go up.
What do you need to create a customer? An email address.
The problem is that in ZR a customer is someone you dump bids onto, they don’t have to buy anything. So affiliates create hoardes of fake customers and ZR run around claiming they have the highest customer/affiliate ratio in the industry.
…except that they’re not actual customers (they didn’t buy anything).
Regarding the sales revenue making up the daily ROIs, problem is ZR count member investments as sales of vip bids. What would have been actually useful would be to state how much of the revenue comes from affiliates (by way of investment in points).
“Sales” don’t generate ROIs, investments do – yet ZR count member investments as sales. If the majority of “sales” that make up the daily ROI pool was from customers who are not affiliates, that would be a true reflection that the business model is sustainable.
Regarding not being in debt and not paying out on projected earnings… that’s what a Ponzi does, they take in the days earnings and pay out returns with it. They don’t go out and get a loan to pay off the ROIs hoping to pay off the loans with future money.
They either make enough with daily investments to pay off existing members or they go bust – that’s how a Ponzi works. Zeek stating they only pay out ROIs off daily revenue from “sales” doesn’t clarify anything when they include member investments in points as “sales”.
Point 4 relates to me rather than K.Chang.
A. “Strong believer in U.S. Constitution” and the rest of the list was meant in a positive way. The meaning was “People are relatively stable, and will just continue doing their work”. I will consider “being stable” to be positive when it relates to work, but people reading books about self development will probably have different opinions.
It can be compared to mixing in variations of “Criticism isn’t exactly an armchair sport” in a description of Oz’ work.
B. “Entertaining” was meant in a positive way. I pointed out the difference in style between the blogs. Neither Oz nor you would have benefited from copying each other’s style, but you can still use some of the contents from each other’s blogs.
C. Ignoring the theories about other laws involved was exactly what I did, because the method is meaningless when ZeekRewards’ management already have stated which law they used (the OFAC list).
If they want to come up with other laws, they have to do it themselves, with an “Ooops, we quoted the wrong laws. The correct laws should of course have been …”. You are simply too eager to defend them when you’re starting to look for other possible laws on your own.
It doesn’t really matter if you feel the theories holds water, it’s the method itself that fails.
Point A+B+C = I accept your style, but I didn’t accept the method of introducing theories about other possible laws.
***
“We” (some of us) consider ZeekRewards to be a Ponzi scheme in the investment part, but this is also the most central part of the concept.
* “Ponzi” is used as a description of the business model, and we do not analyse laws. “Ponzi” is used as a description for a business where payouts mostly derives from the investor’s own money (instead of from external sources).
* “Investment” is used about what ZR calls “buy bids”, or “this is NOT an investment, you are purchasing products for money”.
“We” consider the banning of those 6 countries to be “unfair” an “unjustified”, and the method used to be “extremely unprofessional”. It can be compared to an employer terminating employment contracts without warning, offering to pay a fraction of what he owes the employees in salary – and only comes up with meaningless bullshit to defend the decision.
“Our” main target is people already in a business, or evaluating to join a business, and we are mostly trying to detect possible problems (rather than recommending something). ZeekRewards seems to have escalating problems, where the banning of 6 countries only seems to be one of the symptoms.
“We” and “Our” will only cover a few of the contributors here, and I don’t believe any of them share ALL the opinions. People should usually be able to identify which opinions they share, and which they disagree in.
@mlm guru
The entire premise of the affiliate-to-customer ratio is a TOTAL JOKE and is nothing compared to Visalus. Visalus has real customers buying real products that generate real revenue and commissions.
Zeek affiliates give bids away to FREE customers and for most of the past 16 months you did not even have to find your own customers, you just paid Zeek a fee from $1 to $3.50 and they provided the customer to you for free (never mind that all of the customer user names were “first name + 3 digits” like “jimmy123” … hmmm, real customers, yeah!).
What about the current crop of companies (there are at least 5 that I see regularly) that you can buy customers from now that Zeek won’t give you customers directly?
How about asking these questions:
– What is the customer to affiliate ratio for retail customers who actually SPENT MONEY?
And a more important question:
– How many of these retail customers would have purchased bids if there wasn’t a matching affiliate VIP point bonus? In other words, many affiliates are creating fake customers or paying friends/family/others to buy bids so they can get the points!
Take away the virtual points (which earn ROI over 90 days) and the retail customer rate plunges even further.
As for the rest of Troy’s comments, I found the discussion on Free Store Club downright embarrassing for am MLM professional. C’mon Troy, we all know that the Free Store Club has no significant impact with Zeek Rewards.
If you are going to give Zeek Rewards “credit” for having Rex Group being in business for 14 years and having 3,000,000 customers across their platform, perhaps you can ask where are all these customers now? Almost all were “free” customers much like Zeek Rewards customers are mostly “free”.
Secondly, if you give credit to Rex Group for their 14 years in business with such a large number of customers, how do you explain the amateur performance to date with lack of notification on banned accounts, lack of customer service, tickets that go unresolved for 60 days then get autoclosed, and the constant server downtimes (with 4 different reasons provided during that period).
We all know that companies go through growing pains – my point is if you are going to give credit for 14 years of experience, you should also ask them how they can make so many newbie mistakes?
Even this is suspect for the reason that Zeek affiliates not only receive a 20% commission on retail bid purchases (that is reasonable), affiliates also receive 100% matching VIP points for every dollar spent by the retail customer!
So regardless of whether you had a real retail customer buying retail bids on their own, or you had an affiliate buying retail bids for the benefit of the commission + VIP points, the net effect is the same — the virtual points pool increases per dollar spent.
So it’s not segregated retail revenue where you can subtract commissions from cost of sale. ZR has additional cost liability to pay out the ever increasing ROI on the matching VIP points for every retail purchase!! (This is the point I was trying to get Troy to understand.)
What are the reasons that would drive an affiliate to use a credit card to buy retail bids (as a customer), rather than just buy bids that pay ROI (as an affiliate) ?
1. Credit Cards doesn’t require cash – play the ponzi with credit
In Dec 2011, Zeek banned use of credit cards to buy VIP bids. AlertPay also didn’t accept credit cards any more. So if you wanted to use a credit card, and you didn’t want to use SolidTrustyPay and pay 7% fees + per transaction charge + per day spend limit of $500 on a credit card, you would just create “fake” retail customers and buy retail bids with a credit card.
(I say “fake” not that these are bogus identities, but rather that of friends/family/others who are letting you borrow their name and/or address).
2. Matching VIP Points
As an affiliate, you get paid more if you buy your own retail bids. You get 20% + matching VIP points. If you were to buy bids via the backoffice (the investment buy in), you wouldn’t get the additional 20%. Instead, your upline sponsor would get 10%, andtheir sponsor would get 5%.
3. Exceed the $10k Investment Limit
You can exceed the max $10k purchase limit per customer. (Has Troy asked Zeek why they have an artificial buy-in limit? This is usually the first indicator that an MLM/investment scheme is a ponzi – the operators need to limit the impact of a single person or small group of large investors acting in unison and taking down the ponzi.)
4. Retail Bids as a Supplemental Benefit
You also have retail bids (or 2x if purchased during the BOGO promotion). So now you can try to play the auctions with retail bids that you received “for free,” as your sole purpose in #2 was the matching VIP points.
In fact, #4 is the reason why you see so many auction winners spend thousands of bids on an item that costs $100 or less. The value of the bids are next to nothing, because the purpose of your money spent was #1 and #2.
The discussion with Troy Dooly has been related to the banning of 6 countries (and the laws claimed to be used), not about positive or negative information from ZeekRewards.
The latest news on his blog doesn’t seem to contribute to that discussion at all? I don’t think the blogpost was meant to be part of a discussion, either.
@Jimmy
The definition of a CUSTOMER according to Zeek is actually very similar to the definition of a LEAD or PROSPECT when comparing to other companies.
I am sure that the following ratios would prove enlightening:
1. Retail customer percentage – How many Zeekler customers (who are NOT an affiliate) are putting up their own money to buy bids (ie not getting free bids or not getting money in any way from the affiliate for the bid purchase) / How many customers are getting free bids dumped on them or buying them with cash from the affiliate.
2. Retail customer retention percentage – How many customers in category 1 are re-buying a second set of bids for themselves in like manner following their first retail purchase / How many customers in category 1 are becoming an affiliate or failing to buy more bids.
3. Retail customer penny auction success ratio – How many customers in category 1 are actually winning an auction and getting a “discount” on the item?
I would suspect ratios 1 and 2 are likely 1/25 or worse. In order to qualify as a normal MLM via the Amway rule, it needs to be 7/10.
Ratio 3 in normal penny auctions is around 1/10, but I doubt it is even close to that good with Zeekler in light of the massive numbers of free bids floating around.
Another metric that would be interesting is the following:
Actual net retail revenue (after subtracting VIP point liability).
Somehow I doubt we will ever see real numbers on any of those metrics, as they would immediately show the ponzi nature of the “opportunity”.
What you should note from the income disclosure statement is it ONLY COVERS US MEMBERS, not all members.
Laggos is the publisher of NMBJ, BTW, who’s also consulting for ZeekRewards. Nothing wrong with picking up some free content, but this doesn’t have any breakdown how much of each tier’s income is through profit-sharing vs. other growth. THAT would tell you whether the individuals are SELLING vs. merely recruiting.
I’ve also pointed out before how close this looks with Zamzuu’s final IDS before they went the way of the Dodo bird.
I am going to see if I can roll through and not miss anyone.
@K. Chang – Yes, I will ask about the banned countries. The only reason I can think of for withholding this information is if there is an ongoing investigation into some other outside fraud situation, which has been discussed over the last few months.
Burks, statement, doesn’t blow anything I have stated out of the water. I was very clear, that I was covering several different situations, and they can all be inter-related.
Yes, I understand at least six countries have been removed from the registration process. But unless someone has a master list from a few months ago, we may find more than just six countries missing.
I can understand the comment on “lack of transparency”, however if there is some ongoing investigation into some form of fraud they may not be able to fully disclose everything yet. Again I will be asking about this situation this week.
@Jimmy, I never implied Oz was wrong or the readers here at BehindMLM were wrong. I have been very clear that there is more to meet the eye, than what has been reported. If you read the article I wrote on Oz, although I was critical of his coverage on two articles, I praised his work, and personally apologized for implying he may be on someones payroll.
@K Chang, I do not think Dr, Laggos or Grimes & Reese gave Burk the advice on banning the countries. I do however, feel it could have come from the Direct Sales Compliance, the SEC attorney or the TAX attorney who seem to be the ones with the expertise in this type of situation.
@Oz,
I do not feel just because Burks mentioned “banned countries” that negates the individual list. Just because he doesn’t mention it doesn’t mean it is not relevant. I do understand your position on it, and it is valid. I just believe there is more here than meets the eye, and it will all come out in the end.
Without a doubt some companies do stupid moves to hurt the distributors, I do not believe this is one of them. Like you I want answers.
Oz, think about what you just wrote. Sure Burks stated they banned the countries where the affiliates were located. But he was clear they are having some issues refunding the money because the information on those banned affiliates point to U.S. based affiliate info.
Oz, my reference to the 500 is because based on what I have seen, we do not even get close to that number. Based on passed companies who have done ill to their reps, the numbers of disgruntled reps have run very high, and it was easy to see there was a widespread problem of a company doing harm.
I do feel for the affiliates who are caught in this mess who were doing, nothing but running their business. I just have a concern, that the majority of the “banned affiliates” may not be affiliates at all, but just shills used by some U S based affiliates. Even you have questioned some of the fraud issues in the past. Can we agree there could be a connection, and the company is just not, yet about to disclose everything?
As to why only “six countries” could it be, Greg Caldwell their compliance expert, has isolated this issue to six countries being used for fraud against Zeek, and decided to shut everyone down, until they can dig into who were real affiliates and who were fake?
Many of your readers and mine have raised the concerns on this issue.
I’m not at all stating Zeek is pure in everything, I’m just willing to give them room to get everything cleaned up before making any final conclusions.
I do agree with you 100% many people never tell others about the scams they are in. However, based on the numbers we are seeing across the internet, this doesn’t seem to be an issue. People seem to be talking like crazy and signing up people.
Oz, on your last statement we see it 180% differently. I do not see this as investment period. Although, I respect your position, to date none of the regulatory agencies have called bids in penny auctions as an investment nor do they call the signup fees for the packages as an investment. In both cases these are classified as expenses.
However, I do admit this is why we are not on the same page in other issues regarding Zeek. I am addressing Zeek as a network marketing business opportunity until some regulator calls it something different. High-risk yes due to all the different laws which could come into play.
You see it right out of the gate as an investment scheme, which may or may not be fully legal.
I do believe because we see it differently people who are digging should walk away with enough information to make an informed decision if Zeek is for them or not.
@M. Norway, thank you for the clarification. Lord knows without hearing the tonality of the voice, it is sometimes hard to interpret the meaning. And being on Oz’s site most folks I sometimes have an even harder time. I do respect where you are coming from, and I believe sooner or later we will all have the answers, not just theories.
@Everyone, thank you for allowing me to be a part of this discussion. I know we do not all agree, but with many of us commenting and posting, we do allow everyone to see the full scale of the red flags and high risks involved. This is far more than some investment houses do 🙂
If this was the concern, why limit it to the 6 countries (or however many countries) in question? Wouldn’t the abusers just use a different country? What if they used a major country like US, UK, AU, Canada that Zeek obviously won’t ban. What about the propensity for fraud in China or Russia?
If you look at the ZR business model, there is very little benefit to stack or use shill accounts. You earn based on your initial investment and the forced matrix commissions are very small. This is not like a typical MLM with a forced matrix where you can benefit by gaming the system.
The use of shill accounts that are based in the US with funds transferred outside the US has only been an issue AFAIK for money laundering.
This happens often with online poker sites. But in these cases, entire countries are not banned as the large transaction sizes stand are obvious to spot, and you deal with this on an individual basis.
As to why a US affiliate would pay for their non-US sponsor? This is a common practice in Zeek as it is easier to use US funds to pay for the initial investment, especially when Zeek was accepting credit cards for bids (they stopped this in Dec 2011).
Since PayPal banned ZR (and all other MLM’s), many outside of US were sending PayPal (which does business in the 6 banned countries) to a trusted US affiliate who would then pay on their behalf. Some were also using this method to avoid the high fees from AlertPay and SolidTrustPay.
There are also many who have made virtual gentlemen’s agreement that “if you sign up under me and perform your daily free ads using the free points, I will pay your first month’s subscription fee”. You see lots of threads on MMG and TalkGold with affiliates offering to pay first month’s silver subscription or buy first $10 in bids on behalf of another (cost of advertising to recruit others).
@Troy
when we idealize a person, company or any other thing, it is really difficult suddenly find out that it is all just not what we were thinking about it….so i can understand you why you are still so blindly believeing in zeek and its staf…
anyway, i would like to suggest you to slowly start to open your eyes, at the contrary it will be also worst when you will need to open them instantly…
all the others ….i was thinking that no one anymore fight for know the answers from zeek and when today i have found out that you are still fighting also if not under the same blog….well…i must just say….”thanks to be still here and fighting for the truth…i respect and admire you each day more and more:)”
Did you know that until Aug 2011, Zeek was offering guaranteed 125% ROI in the same format as every other HYIP and AdSurf, only substituting the penny auction for the ad networks? And their comp plan looks almost identical to other HYIP and AdSurf plans prior to the Aug 2011.
If you do not think it is an investment, do you at least agree that it started as an outright investment?
Did you know that Zeek’s own marketing materials and T&C’s listed “compounding interest” and then later “compounding bids” in Aug 2011, which they later removed after the ban on use of the word “investment”.
If you listen to any opportunity call hosted by affiliates (not the corporate calls), the entire sales pitch is based on the idea of a compounding interest and a guaranteed ROI.
@Troy
Burks mention of banned countries doesn’t negate the list, it just confirms that countries were indeed banned by Zeek Rewards.
OFAC’s response negates the individual list:
OFAC themselves screen for transactions with people on the list and criminal liability only exists on the part of the US person(s) based on the inherent risk of a situation or transaction.
If you’re not doing anything illegal, OFAC will take care of it. There’s no liability or requirement on Zeek Rewards part to ban individuals. Which mind you they haven’t done, they’ve banned countries, as per Paul Burks.
Two seperate issues as far as I’m concerned. They have to refund as a result of banning, but the two aren’t interconnected.
There could be, but in that case why not just ban the accounts. You can’t claim 100% of members from the six named countries are all shills.
Because it’s business as usual for anyone outside of the six countries. As long as the 90 day ROIs keep paying out, other Zeek Rewards members don’t want to hear about it.
Burks could have put out an update stating he’d banned the members because someone cut him off on the drive home that day. That would have been a perfectly acceptable explanation to the rest of the member base, provided he keeps paying out their 90 day ROIs.
I’ve said this a few times now, but purchases don’t generate 90 day ROIs, investments do.
How many of those auctions analysed pay out ROIs guaranteed for 90 days?
Zeek Rewards “products” are no more products than those advertising companies that pay out guaranteed ROIs if you “purchase” advertising packs from them.
And when considering this, please remember that all they did was remove 125%… you still get paid out ROIs, just that it’s now only guaranteed for 90 days. The fundamentals of the buisness model from Zeek Rewards’ end never changed.
Members pump in money and earn ROIs.
How is it anything but an investment scheme?
We don’t call bids “investments”. 🙂
We call them “investments” when people’s main motives for buying them are related to ROI, rather than spending them on auctions (where the main motive is to win an auction).
This website isn’t exactly used by penny auction enthusiasts, so we don’t discuss winning strategies, penny auction books or different auction sites. It’s possible to find a few posts mentioning topics like that, but they are very few and related to something else.
People’s main motives for joining ZeekRewards is the possible ROI they can get on their investments, and the possibility to earn income through referral of new investors to the program (and related income).
We call it “Ponzi” when external sources for revenue are insignificant, and most of the money paid out are the investors’ own money.
In ZeekRewards, most of the affiliates tries to attract new investors rather than retail customers. When they try to attract customers, the main motive is to get someone to dump their free bids onto, in order to earn VIP Points, bonuses and ROI.
I really don’t care if they have a 25:1 ratio between affiliates and customers, since most businesses will use other definitions for customers than Zeek do. ZeekRewards ratio is only an attempt to mislead people, it doesn’t reflect the real ratio between retail customers and investors.
They may insist that they are not an investment, but the BOTTOM LINE is they encourage members to put money INTO the system (buy bids and give them away), and are “rewarded” for keeping the money in the system for as long as possible with “profit shares” that only serves to grow the account, and for recruiting people (which also helps).
Investment is defined as “process of investing money for monetary/material gain”. In ZeekRewards, you put money in (buy bids), do little if any work (recruit, and post some ads worth about 50 cents a day), and qualify for profit share which GROWS your potential profit, of which you are encouraged to NOT withdraw (full reinvestment) as much as possible.
What’s that expression? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck?
ZR is an investment in everything but name.
Let’s see if I can get caught up 🙂
@Jimmy, great insight and questions. I will use some of them when I talk to folks the next few days.
@Miss Natasha, you might want to read what I have written over the last few months. Without a doubt Zeek Rewards is classified high-risk as a business proposition which is how it is listed on my site. So I am not sure about who I am suppose to idealize.
@Jimmy, if you review my original articles you will see I called out the very concerns you are now.
However, after my first reviews, they hired their legal and compliance team and started making changes. The issue is not what they were, it is what they have done to correct the red flags and legal issues today.
@Oz,
Thanks for commenting. Sorry I missed this earlier today.
1. We are seeing this from a 180 degree difference. Zeek has clearified this issue many times over from a legal standpoint.
Without a doubt affiliates have used investment terms over and over, as they do with many companies. And many companies correct their field force or the regulators do it for them.
2. Oz, on the IRS point, let me see if I can be clearer. The Affiliates have been filing their returns with the IRS for months, and to date not one of them have reported having their tax returns denied, or called in for questioning the expenses.
Plus with Zeek having an IRS tax attorney as part of their legal team, do you not feel he would be competent in these issues?
3. On the topic of ROI, can you link to the specific verbiage on the Zeek Reward website you are referring for my review so I can read it in context?
4. Oz, your statement “If Zeek Rewards is printed out on people’s checks, then the business itself has to be considered separately.” is not completely correct.
The business laws in all 50 States allow for a company to write whatever name they are transacting business as long as they have filed the correct paperwork with their bank.
In this case as with some of the example companies I made on your site, run their marketing arm under one name while their products are sold under another.
5. Oz, your statement “They don’t need to use the bids, as the ROI isn’t dependant on this. Bids just need to be dumped onto fake accounts, all ZR care about is that they are paid for with real money.” could hold water, if the “ROI statement” is something Zeek promotes based on your above belief.
6. As for DubLi being dead, I am not sure where you get your info. But just using the Alexa ranking as a clue, they are at 45K worldwide. And the DubLi site is at 14K worldwide. Not numbers of a dead company.
7. Oz, on the your response to why folks are not talking about the other services, based on what I have seen written, you may have a point.
This is what DubLi went through in the USA before revamping under Grimes & Reese’s guidance.
One question I would ask is if the auctions where any one individual Zeekler member spent more money on bids in a given auction than the prize was worth is included in their revenue numbers?
Several less than honorable Penny Auction site owners have used bots to shill bid making sure the site wins any auction where they might have lost money. I am not claiming that Zeek is doing anything like this but just suppose they were using shill bids to inflate (on paper) their auction revenue? How could you prove it?
I want to extend my respect to Mr. Dooly, I don’t always see things the way you do but I value your opinion. And you’re a big gregarious bald dude who’s hard to dislike. But I’ve seen hundreds of “revenue sharing programs” which promised well over 300% ROI per year and not a single one has ever been legitimate.
I know there’s someone else around here who keeps track of the numbers but recently Zeek has been paying out an average of 1.4% per buisness day on VIP points. No matter how you wish to parse the number of buisness days in a year, that’s still well over a 300% ROI.
If Paul Burks has created a buisness model capable of sustaining a 300+% ROI per year I think he deserves a Nobel Prize for economics. But I don’t think either of us are calling Stockholm just yet.
Well, one possible factor in the number of affiliates you see talking about being banned is language. Unless the former Zeek affiliates in banned countries speak engish they may not be coming to this site or yours to talk about it.
But I do wish those Zeek members in banned countries who do speak english would consider contacting Troy through his site and perhaps facilitate the discovery process here. And it is very true that “no one has been able to show viable documentation” about this issue, most especially Zeek themselves.
@Troy
I’m not too fussed what Zeek say, instead I go by their business model – which clearly offers members a 90 day ROI on all investments made with the company.
The deadline for returns is today or so isn’t it (late April, can’t remember exactly when). They don’t start processing them till after the deadline?
That means the company’s taxes might be fine… but you don’t think a bunch of affiliates reporting irrelgularly high business expenses aren’t going to get audited?
I’d be very surprised if red flags weren’t raised over at the IRS when they start processing these ZR affiliate returns.
Again, not too fussed what the company say, it’s their business model that matters.
You invest in VIP bids, dump these bids onto fake accounts you set up (or purchase) and then so long as you spam the internet once a day by publishing an ad nobody will ever look at, you earn a 90 day ROI.
The above is how the vast majority of ZR members are using Zeek Rewards as an income opportunity, that being a relatively passive investment scheme (buy/create fake customers and spend 2 mins a day publishing a classified ad is pretty passive).
Sure it is. What is the MLM company here? Zeekler, Rex Ventures or Zeek Rewards? It’s a self contained company.
Of course it holds water, when the bids are dumped the investing member gets points. Based on those points ZR then pay out a 90 day ROI.
What happens to the dumped bids is irrelevant, used, not used it doesn’t matter.
Also again, how Zeek Rewards choose to market this aspect of the income opportunity doesn’t matter either, functionally the above is what happens and what their members are doing to earn money. That is dumping VIP bids, getting VIP points and then earning a 90 day ROI on the bids they bought.
Like I said I haven’t looked at them recently. I did look at them back in 2009 and they were basically running around from country to country promising a massive launch but then failing to deliver each and every time. They had a history of this.
Now we agree on something!
I think you are not correctly analyzing the changes that ZR has implemented. You are saying that they went from “obvoius, outright investment” to “not an investment but an innovative MLM/retail model” (quotes are me paraphrasing, your your direct quotes).
Many on here disagree because the underlying business model changed minimally from before (which you agreed was an obvious investment business opportunity) to where it is today.
Yes, they changed terminology to remove the words “investment” and “compound interest”. And they went from directly paying interest to paying virtual points. But let’s be honest here – the underlying source or revenue is unchanged, the underlying motivations and ways in which affiliates recruit other investors to buy in is unchanged, the underlying way in which you earn an ROI is changed only in format (125% guaranteed to 90 day ROI).
So if we can agree that ZR was once an investment, then the area of debate is whether you believe the changes implemented makes this no longer an investment?
Let me say that if you believe that is true, what would happen if all of a sudden unregistered security providers (which are illegal) decide to mask their ROI’s with virtual points?
On the call with Howard Kaplan, he refused to give any guidance on how affiliates should claim business deductions. All ZR did was try to upsell some business tax software, but despite touting Howard Kaplan’s involvement and having him on weekly call, he would not tell affiliates how to claim the business deductions for the compounding bid repurchase.
This was not a “ask your own tax advisor” liability deflection, it was a pretty black and white issue. Are the daily profits share and bid repurchase deductible? We all agree yes. But as what? Cost-of-goods sold? Marketing expense?
I would take your question and reverse it – for such a renowned expert who has direct access to the entire Zeek business model, why can’t we provide a simple answer on how to deduct the bid repurchase on a sole proprietor’s Schedule C? It’s the most basic of all business transactions.
Deadline is Apr 17 in the US. Some may have filed early. Realistically it can take 6-9 months before the IRS sends any inquiries. Even then you have 30 days to respond, can request an extension, they send back their response, you can accept or rebut, then they can give final determination, and then you can file notice of appeal.
When the IRS sends you a notice during this process you have 30-days to respond. When you send your response it can take them 1-3 months to reply. I’ve gone through this 3 times in last 10 years for other business income (HYIP, AdSurf, affiliate revenue for gambling revenue that was paid outside the US when I ran one of the top 10 information portals for gambling).
So any practical impact of the IRS doing something will probably be at least 9 months away. As a practical matter, the only ones that would raise any red flags are high deductions, six figure range which there is probably only a handful for 2011. A lot more in 2012.
Troy, here is verbiage directly form Zeek Rewards back office. It’s been there since Aug 2011 in your retial profit report (the main report most affilaites check every day).
Mr.Troy….i will not read what you have written in your last posts about zeek, because also without reading them, i know what are you thinking about zeek….it is all in how are you writing about it now and how you are trying to find out 1000 and 1000 excuses for what the big chief has done…
in fact i have never before seen no one to defend with so much enthusiasm no one, especially when the bad facts were so much evidented like is evident now this situation in zeek about our 6 contries….
you are finding out so much ridiculous excuses for them, that if i would not be involved directly in this dirty situation, i would surely smile when i would reading your comments…it is like i would talk with a little boy who is trying to explain at his mother what`s about the disappered candy ….
in fact the fact is that the candy is disappeared and also if this little boy try to find out 1000 excuses for this, the fact – disappeared candy – will remain 🙂 ….with zeek is the same, believe me….
also if you are trying to find out 1000 excuses for why probably the big chief has done this….the fact is still here – 6 countries are blocked already 20 days and we still don`t know why – so trying to find out so much excuses for the big chief, will surely not change the facts….or yes?
@GDorn
in fact in the first place the problem is in our knowledge of english, but the biggest problem is that the other people don`t let us to talk about this problem….
so it is logical that we are not talking anymore about this…anyway, i am still hope that talking here in behindmlm about this dirty thing will help enough to finally have our answers….in fact we deserve at least this after so much time we have worked for them….at least this!
@Natasha
Let the experts debate , and Mr.Troy is a MLM expertise so don’t insult his intelligence. I enjoy every bit of what they analysed.
ZR has many made many other puzzling business decisions that create more questions. For example, why does ZeekRewardsNews run two Adsense blocks? Surely the minimum amount of clicks they get from Adsense is nothing compared to the daily profits they are making, especially based on the daily payouts to affiliates if that number is indeed 50%.
I am not attempting a derail (I do want to get answers to the OFAC issue and the “is this an investment” question), but a company with 15 years experience and all these industry experts, and making a significant amount of daily revenue shouldn’t have such an amateur move as to put two AdSense blocks on their site?
Imagine if Visalus or Amway or MonaVie did that.
My point in all of this is that not to argue the value of the Adsense blocks, but to show that ZR has made poor business decisions. Just because they have paraded all these experts from MLM, tax, legal, etc. as contractors in front of affiliates to paint a pretty picture, doesn’t mean that translates into sound business decisions.
So my analysis to date, while it may seem a bit harsh or overly critical, has been focusing on Zeek Rewards actions and inactions, not on the marketing.
On the topic of Zeek Rewards News, has anyone else noticed that each post list comments that aren’t actually there?
Each post claims to have comments (sometimes thousands of comments) but if you click the full article nothing comes up, or far fewer than the stated comments.
Why would they do that?
I can’t stop laughing at this. If they have thousands of people going to blog daily, and they click on the Adsense blocks, extra money coming – free money!
That’s what you do in business, maximise income.
So now you are getting all questions answering Zeek and they counter all the dross you keep writing, you now pick up on Adsense blocks.
Pleeeeeeeeeeease lol
PS. Adsense blocks on this blog lol
The next thing will be Paul Burk’s doesn’t dress like a millionaire. Is Zeek really making that much money. No. But thousands of people involved are 🙂
It amazes me when people get ALL their questioned answer, then start on such trival crap like Adsense blocks on a blog because their are losing the argument.
If Adsense was on Zeek Rewards and Zeekler site fair enough, but it’s not.
oz; YES, I noticed that comments are indicated on Zeek news, but no comments appear
@Dave
so uh… when did that happen?
@Craig
sorry, but it wasn`t my intention to insult the intelligence of Troy, believe me….in fact i am not habituate to insult no one, especially not who i don`t know…
i really hope that you are the only person here to have understood my previsious post in this way….in fact i have written just my thoughts about the facts and nothing else….yes, right, it is not so easy to write in a strange language, anyway until now usually people have always understood me and i really hope that the same will be also in the future….
however, i repeat, surely it wasn`t my intention to insult Troy…i would never permit me this, for no one….so, if maybe also someone other have understood in this way my previsious post, I apologize fot this…
@Dave
hm….we have still a lot of questions without any answers…can you help us to find them out?
kchang: your hub page link does not work
Links disabled subject to “review”, stay tuned. 🙂
@Dave,
Oh please, you are not comparing apples to apples. This site is a blog, of course it has adsense. ZR is a multimillion revenue generating MLM. Why make a few dollars in Adsense? The damage to branding and credibility far outweighs very small revenue.
@Oz,
Those are real comments, but ZRW approves very few. Their blog template counts all comments submitted rather than approved.
You would think they would maximize social collaboration, but ZR seems to want to silence all discussion outside of what they can clearly control, such as the many useful Zeek info sites that compliance took down (such as zeekanswers, my favorite).
But they’re using WordPress. WordPress doesn’t publicly count comments until they are approved…
@Natasha
No hard feelings , my misunderstading 🙂
Since all the others have continued … 🙂
The biggest concern in ZR’s business model is that they seem to mix virtual and real revenue.
* virtual revenue from affiliates using their VIP Points to buy bids.
* real revenue from bids bought, using real money to pay for them
They all seem to go into the same “pool of money”, and to be used to calculate the daily profit share. It also looks like most of this revenue is virtual (reinvested points).
Affiliates using VIP Points to reinvest in bids don’t generate revenue. VIP Points isn’t money, so they don’t contribute to revenue either when people are reinvesting them.
Most affiliates are trying to attract new investors (affiliates) instead of retail customers, if we are looking at the main focus on their websites. When they try to attract retail customers, it’s usually because they need someone to dump their bids onto. Often they use family and friends as customers.
The auctions reflects this impression. The bidders will often look more like people trying to get rid of bids, rather than real customers trying to win an auction and save money. Some bidders spends 1000 bids or more on items worth $150, and they even continue with their bids when the price exceeds the retail price.
@Natasha
I’ll guess you can continue, since Craig and all the others have continued – instead of waiting for the experts. 🙂
@M_Norway
you are really a great person and i must say that i feel really good when i am talking with you 🙂 …anyway, maybe it is really better that i stop to write and just read what you other write….
in fact not only my knowledge about all the sistem of zeek is zero, but like you know neither my knowledge of english can compete with your knowledge of this language….and, if you think better, if all you great people can`t do nothing to break down the wall of silence which has made the big chief arround the truth about all this, surely all these my stupid posts will not help in this….
so, also if i really like to write about this story, i am the only directly involved in it who i am still trying to fight for all us….but one is like no one….so it is maybe really better that i finish to try to find out the truth….
like i am habituate to say about my country: we have the freedom of speech, but what i can do with it, if no on listen to me? just talk and talk and talk and talk with the consciousness that no one will never listen to me, hm…just non-sense …and it is for this reason that all the other 499 people are not talking anymore about all this story…
it is so sad to try to be heard and to see that this will never happen….anyway, i really hope that at least you 4-5 great people will be one day heard and that i will be here with you when this will happen 🙂 …good luck, my great friends 🙂
@Craig
thanks, Craig….anyway, until now i will just read all the posts, so in this way i will be at least sure to not do some too much big mistakes…. 🙂
@natasha
None of us have any solution for you.
I recommended to send an e-mail to ZR, asking for the details about your account (when it was started, initial investment, when it was terminated, number of bids and VIP Points). I don’t know all the details about the accounts, so ask for “all information related to my account” to be sure.
* Describe what has happened:
“My account was terminated 28. March 2012, without any explanation. ZeekRewards released information 10 days later, claiming the deactivation of accounts in my country was related to an embargo from Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), making it illegal for U.S. citizens and companies to do business with citizens in my country (banning the whole country).
This explanation has not been confirmed by OFAC, …” plus some quotes from OFAC’s e-mail in the article.
Describe the offer you have received from them:
“I received an offer for a refund, $xxx. This amount will only cover my initial investment, and will not cover all the work I have done. The info I received when I joined ZeekRewards clearly stated that we should be paid for posting the daily ads.”
Add something official from ZR, something where they are mentioning paying for posting daily ads.
Add something about the people you have recruited in downline?
Disagree in the offer:
“I disagree in your offer, and we will have to find a solution more both parties can agree in. The current offer seems to be unbalanced and unfair, clearly in favour of ZeekRewards. I will prefer to have the offer evaluated by a neutral advisor or Governmental body in the U.S.”.
Set a deadline for an answer:
“Please respond within 14 days from today, 17.04.2012.”
(but give them a week extra)
Accept the money:
“If I don’t receive any answer within the deadline, I will consider the refund offer to be a temporarily solution rather than a final offer, and I will accept it as a solution while I’m waiting for your offer.”
NOTE:
Be neutral, and don’t blame them for terminating your account. The only thing you should do are
* collect facts they have
* state facts that you have, or what you have interpreted as facts. This also includes a short description of what has happened.
* Disagree in the offer you have received
* Make it possible to accept money, without accepting it as a final offer.
Try to make it shorter. I write pretty FAST, and my posts will often be too long and too detailed.
Use your own words instead of mine?
Remember when you are writing:
This letter and the answer you’ll receive from ZR are meant to be attached to a complaint (to Better Business Bureau or whatever), so try to focus on facts rather than emotions.
NOTE 2:
This letter is a “raw model”. I will usually make some changes in my e-mails (like change the order of the points, making it more readable, etc.). I haven’t done any grammar- or spellchecking either.
@natasha
One corredtion in the raw model:
I changed the sentence from “solution more acceptable for both parties” to “solution both parties can agree in”.
Check for similar errors in other parts? I made a few changes when I was writing.
@M_Norway
thanks…you are really kind, like always 🙂 …your idea about this letter is really great, wow!…anyway, do you think that i will be capable to write it at 100% without any emotion?
if i would copy all what you have written here, maybe it would be really without them….but if i would change just one single sentence, hm, probably i would put inside this sentence all my contempt which i feel for them….and it is especially for this reason that i didn`t yet write at them, believe me…so the only way it is to copy at 100% what you have written here….
but, will they read this letter? or will it just read it half and then trown in trash? what if they will choose this way? emails have the same value like the registered letter? how can i then prove to have sent this letter if they will don`t answer me? …
and, at the end….. Dragica from Serbia right today have sent me an email in which he has written that she has already ask for the refund but without any result…they want from her more and more informations about how much she has invested and other things….and she has invested just few bucks here, like me!….
so i really don`t believe that with this my letter i will be able to have more informations from them…like it seems they want to have informations from us, uh!!!….probably they are sure that in this way a lot of refunds will not be done and so they will have more money in their pockets…so sad, uh 🙁 ….
There is a sad truth here. Forums like TalkGold, MMG and others of the kind exist to promote online ponzi and pyramid schemes. They take money from these programs to help advertise them and sometimes moderators or Admin on these forums are members of the programs themselves. Either way it’s easy to see how the website owner or the people who supervise it’s daily operations have a financial interest in making sure there aren’t too many people being critical of a program they’re making money off of and I’m sad to say that their definition of “freedom of speech” does not include anything which costs them money.
I think TalkGold is among the worst at this which in a strange way makes them the clearest barometer of a ponzi scams health. If you’re following one of their more active threads just pay attention to how quickly critical posts get deleted. When those same critical posts are no longer being deleted you know that they stopped paying TalkGold. And when a ponzi stops paying the TalkGold’s of the world, they aren’t going to be paying anyone else either.
And besides, you get a whole lot more information with a lot less noise on blog’s like Oz’s than you’ll ever find on the ponzi pimp forums.
Jimmy: Your comments on Zeek’s tax expert Kaplan was spot on. He never comes out and says “bids brought, or given away , can be deducted as expenses on Schedule C.
My back office 2011 states total revenue, bids given away, bids sold. It’s funny that total revenue is stated as $’ but bids are stated as a number (no $ sign). I filed Sched C using only those numbers. No other expenses claimed. Do you think I will be ok if I get audited?
Hey Troy, how many bids are in your account? Are you using the 80/20 investment rule for your own Zeek Rewards Business? Boy, you sure know how to stretch things…I think its funny watching everyone back you into a corner.
I saw your interview with the lady from Zeek Rewards…boy you sure were tough! She had you eating out of the palm of her hand in minutes. I think you were even drooling all over yourself.
As for you getting the title of MLM Expert…more like MLM Junky or MLM Gossiper…just because someone has a website and positions themselves as an mlm guru or expert doesn’t it mean it true. Some of you are ridiculous thinking “Mr. Dooly” has so much wisdom (which is evident by his ridiculous arguments defending zeek).
Those of you who think I’m being tough on Dooly…no, its just my general disregard for mlm busy bodies who are always talking about what “the next deal is”. I dislike mlm gossipers.
For the record…the guys who put this website together aren’t in that category. They actually provide real factual information not mere opinion and psycho babble.
For the record…all of this banter is great…but I turned Zeek Rewards into the FTC and SEC. It’s really easy…just go their and file an official complaint.
Sincerely,
MLM 7 Figure Income Earner, The real deal.
LOL. Looks like Mr.Troy got himself a hater here. It cracks me up.
I have noticed a pattern over the years with a lot of these MLM gurus/junkies – they promote whatever the product of the day is and its miraculous benefits, and tout residual income potential/long term stability while dissing any normal 9-5 jobs or traditional investing methods such as stocks, real estate and such.
There is usually some pitch to their recruits/downline to “join/upgrade at the highest level”, invest a lot of money and time up front to build the “business” with a promise that if you just bust butt for 18 months, then you too can enjoy residual income for years to come.
But if you actually overcome the long odds and build some sort of team under you, then you start to see the deception getting exposed through disturbing changes – the company changes the comp plan somehow and it becomes a lot less lucrative, some repressive marketing rules and controls get put in, and pretty soon there is a massive shakeout and 60-80% of your team goes inactive or quits, including some of the same upline that brought you in.
The same leaders that brought you in with the promises of a long term future with residual income operate like a swarm of locusts – after joining the program with their friends and fellow MLM junkies, they recruit latecomers ( suckers ) to help them cash out by gaming the comp plan over a short 12-18 month window until it is sucked dry, then suddenly quitting en masse to join the next new hot company in “pre-launch”, leaving a wake of disenchanted “recruits” that were sold a bill of goods about residual income which is never realized, and a product that is usually misrepresented, overpriced crap, and a company that folds or fades into obscurity.
The real MLM veterans are always all about the comp plan ( usually some sort of recruitment ponzi scheme ) rather than the product or service being promoted by whatever company. In other words, they usually want some sort of comp plan they can just tack onto any opportunity and they could care less whether the product is crap, overpriced, or even a real opportunity at all.
The product or company is basically just bait – an excuse to run a ponzi scheme again with a new angle.
With Zeekler and a lot of these others, the fad is to create some sort of “magic ROI” scheme where you can join, put money in instead of recruiting people, pretend to “work” for a few minutes per day placing ads, virtualize the investment into “points” and then hook up to the ponzi and get massive multiplication off the latecomers who are urged to buy in for real cash, and reinvest at 100% for 12-18 months while the leaders are in fact mostly cashing out, because they know the thing will not last more than about 24 months max.
The same spreadsheets that were being bandied about before the compliance changes actually showed people building up million point balances over a 2 year period.
In fact, when my upline started emailing out the spreadsheets, that is when I knew the thing was doomed to fail, because no way is Zeekler gonna ever be big enough to pay out millions of points to thousands of people. So, only a few can cash out and then the game will be up.
There is also the risk that the FTC comes in and shuts down the company suddenly, or some flimsy excuse is used to quietly ban those who try to cash out a little too much ( banning 6 countries anyone? ) or shed light on the temporary nature of the opportunity.
Imagine filing your 2012 taxes with thousands of dollars of phantom income reported on a 1099 that you never received as cash because the company goes bust during the year or somehow you get banned or the percentage drops precipitously. So, the points are worthless for cashing out, but the IRS thinks you “earned them” and owe taxes on them. Man that would suck…..
Anyways, one more check in about 10 days and I am out of this thing permanently. Thanks to this site for helping me dodge a bullet and escape this thing intact….
Bids aren’t $’s until they are cash in your hand. If you are in a banned country they have no cash value whatsoever.
Which country is next on the list?
Maybe that is the best question to ask Paul Burks.
I just left a comment on “STP/AP Issues & Password Creation”
It had 131 before I left it and 132 after. Waiting on moderation….either they cut all the comments or the mod is sleeping
@gen3benz
surely again people from countries in which people don`t have so much good knowledge of english….so surely not countries from USA and not Canada and other similar countries….maybe russia or india or ukraina or…..who knows….
@cashing out
i think that they just thought at the future….in fact in our 6 contries, at least for what i now….practicaly no one have cashed out money….
we have left all the money inside to can have something more in the future….so if they have blocked us for the fear fot their money, it was just for the future, not surely for the present problem, believe me
@GDorn
so the freedom of speach also in USA exists just in theory? 🙁 …
You can say it, but it’s THEIR forum, they don’t have to show your comments. You can put it on your own website or board or whatever.
Basically, government can’t say “You can’t say that in public”, but a private forum is not “in public”.
@GDorn
also if i am not writing anymore in MMG forum already all the last week, almost each day i look here what are the people talking about zeekrewards and in these last 2 days i have noticed that 2 members are so much exaggerating with praising this “so great opportunity”, that i believe that with this they want to destroy all the doubts in other members…
in fact i have never before seen that someone would so much praising it……yes, i feel the need to answer at these guys and tell them that the problem with our 6 countries still exists, but when i remember at how they all have treated me, i must admit that i instantly lose this intention….
if i would be a masochist, this place would be surely the right one for me….but i have suffered too much for their insults and humiliations in the last 5-8 days when i were active here, so now it will be better if i will not write here anymore….and, to be honest, it would be better also if i would not neither read them!….
anyway, what you would do if you would be in my position? would you answer at these guys? would you try to remember at all the people here that this problem still exists and that zeek is not what they want it would be? …..
I had to listen to it twice, to check that I hadn’t missed anything. I even made notes about minutes/seconds into the video to identify WHEN he said something about the deductions.
He sure said ‘something’ about the deductions, located in the 2.5 minutes between 16:00 and 18:30 into the video. Did it make any meaning? Nope, but he sure said something. 🙂
You don’t have to participate in something to be positive (or negative) about it, or to be one of the competitors if you’re negative. People just see things from different viewpoints.
Differences in opinions isn’t a problem for most people, it makes the opinions become more ‘balanced’ and less ‘onesided’. Those who have very biased viewpoints will usually only allow opinions that supports their own.
I made a joke about ‘being an expert’. We are relatively relaxed here when it comes to ‘being experts’.
With Howard Kaplan, I even identified exactly WHEN he tried to be an expert, the 2.5 minutes in a 33 minutes conference call video. Just in case somebody was unable to identify him as an expert, and had a need to have it exactly pointed out. 🙂
@K. Chang
you are right…private forum is not “in public”….but if we can`t talk about this problem in private forums, where we can talk about it?
there are maybe places which are not private where we can talk without the fear to be banned or “just” humilliated and insulted and where we can be sure that at least someone will listen to us? ….
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again.
Zeekrewards insist it is NOT an investment, but a business where people goes to work.
Yet it terminated “some” international members (believed to be six countries) without explanation and will be refunding their membership fees and bids purchased. Apparently it is NOT compensating these members for any ‘work’ done.
It is an acknowledgement that the “work”, i.e. posting ads, is merely frivolous “make work”. What it really wants is
a) for you to buy bids (i.e. put money into Zeek) and
b) recruit more members (who will buy bids and/or recruit people.)
However, a) would make ZeekRewards an investment, despite its vehement denials, and b) would make ZeekRewards a pyramid scheme where people are compensated for recruiting more recruiters.
Wonder why can’t Laggos and Grimes see that?
You should always take any posting in MMG with “many grains of salt” (i.e. much doubt). MMG is well known to be promoting dubious offers and was cited by US law enforcement to be promoting Ponzi schemes and HYIPs and such.
I don’t have a direct mention, but PatrickPretty.com, who covers Ponzis and fake investments, have this quote:
http://www.patrickpretty.com/2011/03/23/priming-the-pump-talkgold-moneymakergroup-publish-string-of-i-got-paid-posts-from-club-asteria-members-its-no-scam-now-poster-declares/
Agreed this is a common pattern. These “leaders” build up a cult of personality and basically cloned themselves onto their disciples: just recruit people and they’ll make you rich.
I classified them as Type B: MLM Stars, who are basically out to fleece Type A: MLM Grunts if you want to take a really cynical view 🙂
http://randomrantsbykc.blogspot.com/2011/09/general-comment-about-mlm-and-its.html
Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, and these rights are very general and unspecific.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you have the right to speech EVERYWHERE, without respecting other people’s rights. Usually it’s a balance between your rights and other people’s rights.
The right to livelihood (food, etc.) doesn’t mean you have a fundamental right to buy fastfood in the middle of the night, and that the shop owner violated your rights when he closed the shop 9:00 in the evening.
In MMG forum, I’ll guess they will allow you to post in the “Ex-Yu” non-English forums. You’re also ‘allowed’ to post in the main thread about ZeekRewards, but there you will have to accept lots of comments from the other users.
I identified a “conflict of interest” with the other users, so I choosed to break the written rules (starting a new thread), instead of breaking the unwritten rules.
in fact i am habituate to not believe at 100% at what i am reading in no one forum…..just when i read really a lot all arround the internet about a business in which i am interested and when i find out that 99,99% of people are talking good about it and that also the other 0,01% are not talking so bad and when i talk also with some my really good friends about it, then i decide if to join this business or not….
unfortunately here in internet it is a lot of people who are not habituate to search on the web and neither to speak with no one about this (example – about 4 months ago i have found out a woman with who i have started to talk – she was involved in internet businesses about 2 years without never earn neither a cent!!!
– talking with her i have found out that she was doing all the time all alone and that she has never made any research about no one business and that she neither know that exists this possiblity!!! – 2 years lost at 100% 🙁 ) ….
yes, maybe i had a fortune to have found out some really great people at the start, when i have decided to start with internet businesses and so now i know a lot about this, but i have at least searched for help, but like it seems people are so much sure in what they are doing, also if they are newbies, that they are thinking that they can do all alone….
and if someone of these kind of people just in case find MMG forum and read here just last 2-3 pages for zeekrewards for example, than it is logical that he will think that this is the greatest business of the world and naturaly, he will join it (and i hope that he is not right from one of the next 6 countries which will be blocked in the near future!) ….
yeah, right, i could say “if people are so stupid to believe in all they read, than i really don`t care of them”…but i am not made in this way….i want that the people know the truth, not just about zeekrewards, but about anything…. hm….i am an illusionist, right? 😉 …
🙂 good said!….in fact i know that everything is relative and maybe it is also better that it is….at the contrary, if it would be all stable and specific, the law-makers should create law under law under law under law….to can specified averything good and still at the end all would not be specified good, of course 😉 …
anyway, also if i respect at 100% the rights of other people, it is so frustrate to see that the others don`t see this in my way…however, if we all would be equal, the world would be too much boring, like is said….so i must accept this reality, right? ….
Here is something that all of you are forgetting… Paul Burks is the boss; he can do whatever he wants to.
If he wants to ban a Country then it’s his right, it’s his company and he doesn’t have to explain himself to any of you.
If you don’t like what he is doing then go get a job and stop annoying everyone with your stupidity.
That is truth that I am quiet now and that I have given up fighting. Zeek Rewards has power, they can do whatever they want to my account.
They even did not refund my purchases until now. It is just everything about power. Nothing about truth. Just power game. And what can I do? The same I did during 1999. when I slept in a shelter. Nothing. If I were killed it would be colaterral damage.
At the moment I am alive, my account is deactivated, and they have power to write nothing or write anything they want. They have power and I have to leave this unfear battle.
@David Duhamet
Are you talking about Paul Burks in the role of a business man, or are you talking about some other roles (dictator or something)?
This website is mainly analysing business models, and we usually don’t analyse politics or religious cults. Please adjust yourself to the correct topic?
The problem is not the banning. the problem is banning, then give a bull**** reason for it.
the former just make him weird. the latter made him a weird LIAR.
We’re mostly analysing business models. Analysing stupidity will require having lots of experience, built up in years of practice. We’re not qualified in this area.
I believe it’s more about ‘having chaos’.
Refunding minor amounts should have been an easy and inexpensive way out of problems (for ZeekRewards). They should’t have to ASK for details about the accounts, unless someone has deleted the data.
Banning of the 6 countries doesn’t seem to be a well planned action, it looks more like some panic-related behaviour.
* it happened immediately and without any warning.
* they used 10 days before they released a poor explanation.
* they show lots of other signs of not being able to handle the situation.
* their most significant reaction has been to send out lots of ‘positive signals’ to the market, trying to outweight the negative ones.
In a well planned action, each and everyone affected would probably got a warning before the deactivation – to let them do some of the work themselves. A method for cashing out would have been prepared and used. A proper explanation would have been ready before the action. This has not been a well planned action.
My impression is that ZeekRewards has lost completely control over the situation. They have probably made a problem worse when they have tried to solve something.
M_Norway, You make me believe in power of wisdom.
@Dragica
I won’t claim it to be ‘wisdom’. Most of it is business experience from rather ordinary jobs, but where each and everyone had to be qualified to make minor decisions on their own. It’s also from being self employed for a few years, several years ago.
What makes it difficult is that people starts to make up false and misleading explanations not even close to the truth, and not identifying the real problem.
If they have had the data for 6 countries deleted or whatever, making up a false explanation will only create more chaos and won’t solve the real problem. It will create additional problems when those affected tries to find individual solutions on their own.
If I had known the real problem here, I would probably have made better suggestions for how to solve it. And I wouldn’t have wasted time on checking OFAC and other misleading information.
The best solution here is probably to SEND them the information they will need to refund your investment and other payments. Try to solve THEIR problem rather than your own.
@David DuHamel
like i know it is right for this kind of people that sometimes in the history the people have decided to invent the laws…so i really don`t think that a registered and legal companies and their bosses can do what they want without looking at laws…or yes? ….
@M_Norway
like it seems the big chief knew that whatever he will write for explain this dirty story, the people will be happy to accept it….
in fact after the “explanation” all the people are finally again calm and happy, like never nothing would be happened …very strange thing….i know a lot about the human psychology, but this is something really new for me….
if the big chief would explained all with real reasons, i would understand….but they have all seen that the big boss have lied at all of us, so how can they still trust him?! ….or he maybe have sent at all other members another explanations? …..maybe they all know the real reason?….
Hello, I am from Serbia and I sent request for refund 10 days ago and without response. I tried to contact live chat support, but when I leave my question there, they just close chat.
Then you will also know that people usually will focus on their own situation, rather than others? And they won’t try to solve problems if they are not directly affected by them? 🙂
And you will also know that most of us won’t try to solve something we don’t understand completely, “not within our own area of understanding”?
I may have a better strategy for you:
SEND them the information they need to be able to identify your account, and to be able to send you the refund. “Try to solve their problem instead of your own.”
Start the letter with something about “I have heard you have problems identifying the deactivated accounts. I’ll hope this information will help you.”
Include information about the date you joined, your direct upline, your initial investment and member fees, the estimated balance you had in your account when it was deactivated, payment solution, the 2 familymembers in your downline (separated from you, but possible to send refund to you). All the information you think they will need, but sorted with your member number/name first (the most common method to find somebody in a database).
And again, keep it neutral, and just deliver the information they will need.
The easier you make it for them to solve it, the better chances for a refund.
@natasha
This is exactly the method I used when I posted the new thread in the MMG forum, trying to solve their problem instead of solving mine/your’s.
They let the thread live for 12 hours without deleting it, before they made a final decision about it.
I also kept the style neutral, factual and balanced, without exaggerating anything or making any specific claims.
Keeping an illegal thread alive for more than 12 hours is a very long time in that forum. The moderator posted a warning about deletion within 5-10 minutes after the thread was posted, but he choosed to wait and let some of the administrators evaluate it.
@Stefan
Wonder what’s going on. First Burks announces they want to refund people then the company appears to be dodging refunds?
Did you send an email to that account Burks mentioned in his update (the OFAC one?). Might be worth contacting OFAC or a related body and state that ZR aren’t giving refunds and are citing OFAC sanctions that don’t seem to exist.
Out of curiosity, how much did you sink into Zeek?
Oz, I wanted to wait because if they are sending checks I think we should wait 7-10 business days. But, I contacted live chat support several times and asked them just to tell me if company sent me my check-they just close the chat. I also sent them two or three emails but also without response.
Yes, I sent request to OFAC email. I invested about 200$ in Zeek. Maybee it isn’t to much, but for me it is because I actually invested last dollar I had.
If I get my check from Zeek, I will post information here.
I have not got my refund yet. I wrote three times to famous email ZeekOFACRefunds@gmail.com, without any results. (I cannot help laughing every time I see this funny email address).
I sent them all dates recommended in big boss message. Yesterday I submit a support ticket but no answer yet.
It is not big money and I will be OK, but I just want let people to know what is going on. If I get refund I will write to inform about it.
@Stefan
i have talked with 2 guys who have received their refund and both of them have received it in 1-2 days…anyway, this was in first 6-7 days when this problem came out when still a lot of us talked about this…maybe now they have decided to not refund us anymore… 🙁
…however, one of these 2 guys have invested 1000$ in this business and they have sent him his money without problems, like i have said, right at the start when this story came out….
so i really don`t believe that the problem is in how much money they must refund us, but just in that, like it seems, that they don`t want refund us anymore … have you sent them your alertpay or STP account? or you have asked at them to send you a check?
@Dragica….it seems that we are talking too less in the last times….i just hope that you will not surrend and that you will fight for your rights…
@Natasha,
I think we can’t choose how to receive money. I have information that we should receive checks.
I don’t like this, I would like to receive my money in my Alertpay account, but on live chat they told me that they will send us checks.
But if they decide not to send us our money, what can we do. Just to accept that.
@M_Norway
“Then you will also know that people usually will focus on their own situation, rather than others? And they won’t try to solve problems if they are not directly affected by them? :)”
oh, yes, i know that people usually don`t care about the tsunami which is 1000 and 1000 miles far from them….anyway, this situation it is not similar at tsunami and for this reason i am so surprise why these people have reacted in this way….
in fact if this dirty story would happened at another company or if it would happened at zeekrewards but with an real and important reason and of course through a fair play…well, in this situation i would understand very well why they have reacted in this way….
but all this story has happened in our own company, without any reason and with an explanation which came out after 10 day and which was all a big lie….so how can these people live and work like nothing would happened and like all this can`t happen also at them?!!! …i repeat, i just can`t understand….
today i have finally sent out my first email and i really hope that i will receive an answer one day….like you have suggested me it was just an email for have out more informations and….also if it is unbelievable….i was really polite and kind….and i have sent it through an email and also through the support site….so now i must just wait, right? and if they will not answer…what do you suggest that i should do?
oh…i have almost forgot….they are asking for so much data, right? well, i am 100% sure that they have still all our data, but they just don`t want to pay us and so they are doing all the possible for pass the time…..
in fact we can still normaly login in the zeekrewards support site and also our sites are not inexistent, but just “currently inactive”, so they could reactivate them in 1 second, if they would want this…..
anyway, they have also all our data about credit cards….and continue to ask us these data just to make us know day after day that we don`t mean really nothing for them….and that we are just a big burden, nothing else .. 🙁 …
@Stefan
a great person have sent me 4 links where we can try to find justice for us….so if i will not receive no one answer from them in about 10-14 days, i will probably use this way to be paid like i deserve….
anyway, i will wait to what will suggest me M_Norway….in fact i believe in him and so i am sure that he will know better than me what we can do….just don`t let go all, please!!
@Natasha,
I’ll never stop until I find answers. Just let me know if Zeek answered on your question.
@Stefan
of course i will…anyway, probably we will wait a lot for this answer, like it seems…..but, we have time, right? 🙂 …
do you know somebody else who is in this story with us? do you know if he is fighting like all of us? …in fact more we are, better will be for us…fighting just in 2-3 people is not so easy, but fighting in 5-10 or also more, it is surely better….
@Natasha
Yes, we can wait, but more we wait chances are smaller to get answers from Zeek I think. Actually I don’t know, my members invested 10$ or 20$ and they don’t want to fight with us. I will try to reach as many members as I can.
@Stefan
yeah, i know….people are strange….i also haven`t invested so much money here…just about 70-80$ and both my children 30$…but it isn`t just for money for me….
in fact we 3 will surely survive without these 130-140$…..more is for the honesty and respect and of course, for the way in which they have treated us and in which they are still treating us….so i will surely not stop until the justice will win ….
Natasha I purchased bids using AlertPay and I made monthly payments by credit card.
Natasha, I am pretty old woman, and my notebook is old too. We need to manage our time in accordance with it.
@Dragica
don`t worry, i understand you….anyway, we are about 500 people in this dirty story and i am really disappointed to see that 99,99% of them have just let go all….
if just 2% of them would decide that they want find out the truth, we would already found it….anyway, now i am glad to see that at least i am not alone 🙂 …
and also if you are writing here just in time to time, Dragica, it is ok….you are one of us also with just this little things, or course 🙂 ….
very strange what i have read now in mlmhelpdesk about our 6 countries, hm….in fact, if you go here, you will find these news:
“am going to report first of the week on this situation again. I do know that several other MLM companies are now doing the same thing, and from what I have gathered now that others are following suit, is that this move is coming from a merchant service or online payment service.
Paul did tell me that Zeek is working to figure out how to get some countries turned back on it possible.”
hm….it is the first time that i hear that also some other company has blocked out our 6 countries….did someone of you maybe hear about this?
Not a thing, but then Troy is more “connected” then we are.
The problem is he’s not acting as a skeptic and do the Reagan thing “Trust, but verify”. He doesn’t explain the source of the info or give us the raw info so we can evaluate the info for ourselves.
It makes a big difference if he could name this merchant service or online payment service, or even the source of this info. If it came from Zeek themselves, then it just *may* be a PR spin. If it came from the service itself, then it may be more reliable. If it’s hearsay, then it’s just hearsay.
Troy had released bogus info before, like “TVI Express hires lawyer for US compliance”.
in fact i have written a reply to this his post, but it is still awaiting moderation….without any other explanation, like you say, we can`t say nothing about this his post….
anyway, i would really like to know more about it…but, probably, he has posted just what the big chief has told at him….because if really also some other companies would block our 6 countries, all the internet world would talk now just about this….
but like i know no one has never neither mentioned something like this….so i really hope that Troy will explain me more when he will reply at my post
The problem I see is as Paul Burks / Troy Dooly attempt to clarify, they keep creating new tangled webs that don’t connect to their previous statements.
Payment processors not operating in certain countries is normal, and we see that all the time, but why did Paul Burks cite OFAC in the first place? Did the payment processor tell him that and he just relayed the info? It didn’t sound like that at all in his OFAC explanation.
Also, if it is a payment processor that is not supporting certain countries, why is that by itself a reason to DEACTIVATE all members from said countries? Couldn’t you just say something like “all future payments can only be sent via AlertPay, SolidTrustPay, or US check”. Wait, those are the only options as it is and neither AletyPay or SolidTrustPay ban those countries.
So maybe Paul Burks could just sasy “you can only buy bids using AlertPay or SolidTrustPay if you are in these 6 countries”. But wait, that’s the way it is now and has been since Dec when they shut down using CC’s.
So the only possible issue related to payment processors is payment of the monthly subscription fee ($10 for silver, $50 for gold, $99 for diamond) which Zeek accepts by credit card. Couldn’t Zeek use a credit card processor that specializes in EMEA?
I am still completely baffled at the explanation that it is a payment processor. Paypal is the most conservative payment processor of all, and they do business in those countries.
I want to be fair here, at about the 6:30 mark on Troy’s April 23 Zeek post he relays the most up to date version of Zeek’s “why they were banned” story. Someone please listen to Troy’s own words and fact check me.
Now then banning somehow originated with the payment processors. The processors reached out to Paul warning him that there was some sort of funny buisness going on with certain IP addresses gaming the system so to speak. And this is why entire nations were banned.
My first impression is this doesn’t make a lick of sense. If they can trace the problem down to individual IPs (which competent software should) there is no reason to ban entire nations. Particularly because banning entire nations hurts honest affiliates almost exclusively. The real cyber gangs can work through networks of proxies and be back up and running games on Zeek from another IP address in minutes.
My second impression is this doesn’t make a lick of sense. The payment processors informed Paul that certain of their customer’s accounts appear to be acting in a fraudulent manner and that Paul should stop doing buisness with them.
If the payment processors were so concerned about the activities some of their accounts were involved in, wouldn’t they have been the ones who banned the accounts?
Troy, you’ve said you’d like to interview Paul on camera. If we were to compile a list of all the reasons Zeek has given for the banned countries and the date they were given, could you ask Paul to reconcile how all the different stories fit together?
Good points, GDorn. As I have been saying on BehindMLM since the issue fraud was raised by Zeek, when are fraudsters, especially online fraudsters, contained by mere country borders? What happens if there is “suspicious activity” from a US or UK IP address?
And what does payment processors seeing suspicious activity have to do with OFAC sanctions? That’s the question Troy Dooly should be asking.
@GDorn
unfortunately i am not capable to yet understand spoken english, so i can`t listen what someone have said….anyway, what i am reading about this dirty story, for me is enough, believe me….
in fact for me 1+1=2 and will never be different, but like it seems we are just few people here to count in this way, hm…..if the reason would be the payment processor, than i surely couldn`t be involved in no one other business, but i am and also almost all of my downline and upline from zeek and we have never had any problems with no one payment processor and, anyway, like you have said, if the problem it would be in some fraudulent customers, the payment processor would banned them itself….
however, also if all this would be true, this doesn`t have nothing to do with OFAC and their laws….too much different stories and too much different inventions about why we are blocked….i just hope that one day will come out the real one….do you believe in this?
@Jimmy
yeah, Troy should ask really a lot of questions at the big chief, but he believe in him too much and so he will never ask him no one of them….in fact sometimes it is better to live with closed eyes an ears…knowing less, it hurts less … 😉
It is an interesting deflection and severe lack of communication.
Zeek tried to blame the countries (customer support said so)
Zeek tried to blame OFAC, government agency (Burks said so)
Zeek tried to blame payment processor (relayed through Troy Dooly)
Why does the story keep changing? Or can they just not tell the whole truth at one time?
There *may* be an innocent explanation, but this is making them looking guilty.
Commentary:
I don’t deal in hearsay (i.e. “someone told me that…”), as this is just a “can of worms” that has no good ending. Most “urban legends” are spread through hearsay, with various practical jokers and hoaxers embellishing the story from time to time.
It’s even worse in MLM or business, where people who embellish things have much to gain and little to lose.
While hearsay can sometimes produce interesting information, reliability of such info is extremely low, and if it is presented in a way to make it look equal to reliable information, would make hearsay look actually reliable, and that is a big no-no.
Many years ago some newsletters claimed that scientists discovered hell when they dug a very deep hole into Earth. Turns out the sources all simply “heard” or “read” or “recalled” the sources and cited each other. You can read about that here:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4307
Here’s the summary:
So, Troy, beware of hearsay. And this goes for EVERYBODY (esp. sales pitch)
🙂 well, also if this story was happened some years ago, unfortunately we can live it each day also in our normal life, like it seems….in fact hearsay are something which people use every day for everything and for everyone….
but also if i have thought that in serious world of business the hearsays shouldn`t exist…well, it seems that also this world is contaminated with them 🙁 ….
anyway, the problem is not in lack of communication, but in NO communication…in fact members of zeekrewards in 99,99% can`t communicate with no one of them and they do all the possible to not communicate with the members, especially when it is to talk about some really important things….
so we are here and there to try to find out what we need….when i go in time to time to read in MMG forum, i must say that i am always really sad when i read that members find always the answers about their problems here, with the help of other members….
in fact if they write a support ticket for anything at the support, they usually wait for the reply also 5-6 or more weeks and sometimes it also happen that they just close the ticket without neither answer at it…..
they behave with us like they would be another world, the elite world….and we just means to achieve their goal and nothing else (which is probably the only truth!) ….so i can just asking me…..they have treated people in this manner all these 14-15 years or they have changed just the last one year? ….
they really believe in the fact that with this behave they will live yet for years and years? that people will not finally understand that we don`t mean nothing at them? ….
The email response you supply from OFAC does NOT make any sense. They do not require U.S. individuals or entities “screen” against SDN’s, however, the next sentence suggests that U.S. regulations require that U.S. individuals and entities “not conduct business with SDN’s”.
I’m not the brightest bulb in the shed, but that sounds like a trap to me if I was working to maintain complete commercial compliance in the international community with myself or my entity registered and operating my principle business out of the United States.
Since this page has been up for 2 months now maybe things have changed, but I clearly read that both Belarus and Balkans are mentioned on the U.S. Treasury website as “sanctioned countries” by the United States.
@Blake
As I understand it OFAC investigate when a name on their list pops up and they then go about their business. Charges are only brought against people if it’s not legit business being conducted. Otherwise they just put a stop to it I believe and/or set about recovering funds.
I have never invested in Zeek rewards and do not intend to. Several people have tried to get me into it and after researching it I have decided not to. Here is my assessment of it:
Zeek Rewards may well be perfectly legal, but it basically amounts to an internet slot machine. ZR has very cleverly figured out a way to circumvent the definition of “gambling” via the penny auction structure.
Again, as far as I can see, this is perfectly legal, unless the FTC and the DOJ suddenly decide to declare it a gambling operation. Side note: if you are in Zeek rewards and pulling money out, YOU BETTER REPORT IT ON YOUR TAX RETURN.
Why do I think its a glorified slot machine? Simple. In a normal auction like eBay, it doesn’t cost you anything to bid on an item. If you win, you pay the price, if not, you lose nothing. With Zeek, if you lose the auction you also lose all the money you spent on the bids you used up.
The ONLY way they can produce such huge payouts to affiliates and still be legitimate is if LOTS of people are BUYING bids, spending them on auctions and LOSING.
So someone may well win an auction and get an iPad for $60 or something, but there may be 50 other people who each spent $30 each trying to win the same iPad. So Zeek has actually sold a $500 iPad for $1,560.
People are plugging their bids away “hoping” no one else puts one in before the time runs out. They do it over and over until they either run out of money or patience. And there HAS to be a lot more losers than winners for the margins to exist.
I only know of one other activity that operates on that same principle: slot machines.
Now if someone offered you a chance to invest in slot machines and make lot of money LEGALLY and you are fine with that morally, then have at it. But if that would somehow violate your conscience, then you need to look elsewhere for a place to make extra money.
Oh, and before anyone tries to say, “no, no, no, people are using ‘free bids’ that were given to them, they aren’t buying bids”, then that’s worse. Under that scenario ZR can only be a Ponzi scheme.
It is very obvious that there is no way that crappy amateurish auction web site of theirs is generating nearly enough money to pay everyone 1.5% per day. Not a chance. So…
When this house of cards comes crashing down (and if “issues” and “excuses” are a reliable barometer, that day seems to be getting closer) and when Paul, Dawn, et al. are indicted, I hope they also indict anyone with a significant downline -and- anyone who has been shilling for the company on wensites like this.
so i tried joining zeekrewads and the payment went through Moldova and South korea?.
I used payza for zeek, and i instantly backed out due to the fact my bank said they can sell your information. I was really pissed off when i found out about it.
Moldova hey, that’s a new one.
Which processor in Moldova? Would add that to database.
Having read all 129 comments on this string, and knowing now what the accusations against Zeek and Paul Burks are, I can only wonder how he ever managed to get any sleep.
He must have lived a constant waking nightmare trying to hold all the constantly unravelling pieces together with is lies and deceptions that really didn’t resonate per all the comments I just read here.
If the explanation for an action doesn’t seem plausible, then there is always another explanation that remains unrevealed. No amount of conjecture or rationalization can improve a false explanation.
He had co-conspirators. Search for the Reddit link on the “Dissecting the Zeek Ponzi apocalypse” thread.
Paul Burks is Con Man. A confidence trick is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence.