WakeUpNow to enforce mandatory retail sales quota
It’s no secret that I’m a staunch supporter of retail activity within the MLM industry. Indeed, if one were to look at the reviews I write here on BehindMLM it’s easy to see that the presence or lack thereof of retail activity is one of the strongest focal points of any MLM company review I publish.
Ideally when talking about retail volume generation within an MLM company, you want the sales to stem out of a genuine perception of value amongst those retail customers purchasing said product. This organic validation not only cements the value of the product in the retail marketplace, but demonstrates sustainability of an MLM opportunity.
Like I said, ideally the above is how you want to be generating retail volume within your MLM company. What happens when this just doesn’t happen though?
Well, if you’re WakeUpNow you abruptly tell your affiliates that in a few short months, unless they maintain at least seven retail customer subscriptions, they’re no longer going to get paid.
I’m not sure exactly when WakeUpNow (BehindMLM WakeUpNow review here) decided to implement the retail customer requirement, however the earliest official mention of it I found was in the WakeUpNow compensation plan, updated July 2013.
In the updated plan, a footnote on every page reads:
Income Disclosure Statement available at wakeupnow.com/ids
All IBOs must maintain a minimum of seven retail customersVersion 07.2013.002
Despite the mention in the compensation plan though, implementation wise it appears the requirement hasn’t been pushed through yet.
Research on social media reveals a general consensus that WakeUpNow is planning to implement the requirement come October 1st. The clearest clarification I’ve seen of this is a video made by WakeUpNow affiliate Hugo Valdez.
In his video Valdez calls up WakeUpNow customer support and poses as a curious prospective affiliate, asking questions about some upcoming compensation plan changes he’s heard about.
After initially claiming that she ‘didn’t have any information’ on the October changes to the WakeUpNow compensation plan [2:29], the rep then eventually confirms that come October, WakeUpNow affiliate’s will be required to have seven retail customers to qualify as active (earn commissions):
[2:37] Valdez: From what I’m hearing on October first not am I only going to need the three IBOs to generate that hundred dollars to break even, I’m gunna need an additional seven customers as well. Is that correct?
WakeUpNow Rep: As far as I understand it.
WakeUpNow’s retail offering consists of three subscription packages, the lowest being Silver at $24.95. This would mean that in order to earn commissions, a WakeUpNow affiliate would need to have at least seven Silver non-affiliate retail customers.
This is confirmed later in the video by the WakeUpNow support rep, only minutes after she’d claimed she had “no information”.
[4:06] Valdez: I’m hearing that the seven customers have to pay a bare minimum of $24.95 a month, not independent business owners, customers alone. And that there’s like three different packages that the customers can get. Is that correct?
WakeUpNow Rep: Yes.
[4:32] Valdez: The cheapest package for the customers would be $24.95 a month, is that correct?
WakeUpNow Rep: Yes.
On the call the WakeUpNow rep “with no information” reveals that these changes are going to be made public after a WakeUpNow conference on September 9th.
With the requirements already published as part of the WakeUpNow compensation plan since at least July 2013 however, it appears to be not so much of a policy change as actual enforcement of an existing policy.
What does this reveal about the business?
Well, getting back to my initial comments about what should drive retail sales in a company (product value), it would appear that WakeUpNow’s affiliates have failed to thus far generate any significant retail activity within the company.
Why else would they be making it mandatory for affiliates to sign up retail customers otherwise?
Prior to the changes, it was entirely possible to simply focus on signing up new WakeUpNow affiliates and generate commissions of their purchases, a practice the FTC has labelled a tell-tale sign of participation in a pyramid scheme:
Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan.
If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal.
Looking at the upcoming change from a business standpoint, the change makes little sense as it will almost certainly guarantee that at least 80% of WakeUpNow affiliates will fail to qualify.
As per WakeUpNow’s July 2013 Income Disclosure Statement, 80% of the company’s current active affiliates failed to generate over $10 in monthly commissions for the month of July 2013.
$10 of course being the payout a WakeUpNow affiliate generates when they sell a WakeUpNow membership subscription to one retail customer.
It’s worth noting that WakeUpNow’s IDS doesn’t include affiliate who left the company in July or are not “active” (which at less than $10 a month in commissions would mean self-qualification via an affiliate’s own-purchase of a membership subscription). Ergo the 80% figure provided is realistically higher.
These abysmal retail sales statistics go hand in hand with the proposed retail customer qualification, however the IDS indicates that by and large the vast majority of WakeUpNow’s affiliates will not qualify for commissions come October 1st.
Longevity wise it would appear WakeUpNow are quite content to eradicate the bulk of their affiliate-base, which would no doubt lead to a major collapse within the company.
Why are they doing this?
Despite launching all the way back in 2009, if Alexa is anything to by it is only recently that WakeUpNow seems to have taken off.
Given that we know over 80% of affiliates failed to recruit a single retail customer in July (which according to Alexa is around the time WakeUpNow took off), that leaves affiliate recruitment and membership subscriptions as the primary source of revenue generation.
And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what would happen if a regulator was to step in and go over WakeUpNow’s books.
The problem?
Demonstratively WakeUpNow’s membership subscriptions have failed to gain any retail traction for four years running now. In mandating a minimum retail sales requirement the company is effectively blaming its affiliates for not generating the sales, and planning to force them to do so.
Take out the attached income opportunity though and it appears nobody wants to buy a WakeUpNow membership subscription. I guess come October 1st we’re going to see just how unretailable WakeUpNow’s product line really is.
Stay tuned…
Just sorta covered this on my own blog.
If a MLM does not have enough retail to real “ultimate consumers”, then it is a pyramid scheme, albeit a product-based pyramid scheme that seems to be compliant with Koscot test (i.e. not a pyramid), but exploited a loophole to redefine “ultimate consumers” via self-consumption (via starter kits and autoship).
Amway’s bargain with the FTC included the “Ten Retail Customers” rule, i.e. 10 different retail customers every month (not just ten sales to same customer). In Webster vs. Omnitrition case court rules that paper compliance (i.e. merely have affiliates certify themselves as compliant with no audit) is NOT enough to protect the company from being charged as a pyramid scheme.
That pretty much means this WakeUp thing is dead. Jubi tried that 180 turn “we’re gonna go retail now” and chased off all the pyramid-recruiters and was left languishing.
Do any of these companies ever succeed in enforcing mandatory customer quotas? I’ve been approached many, many times by Amway reps (than Quixtar then Amway Global) but as a biz opp. Never have I been approached as a potential retail customer. Ever!
Which is what’s wonky about MLM… Most MLMers have been taught to emphasize recruiting over retailing, and that is just cart before the horse… and makes the whole thing into a pyramid scheme. They don’t realize what makes it a pyramid scheme is HOW THEY DO IT, not what the business was.
It’s kinda like this:
A: Amway is a pyramid scheme
B: No it isn’t
A: The way you’re doing it is (pyramid scheme)
B: Amway is NOT a pyramid scheme!
A: Did you even listen to what I said?
B: I did! It’s nonsense!
A: Okay, YOU’RE running a pyramid scheme!
B: F*** you!
😀
My 2 cents,
I am not apart of wake up now but am an industry player and know people in these companies. I reached out to a few people and what they are saying in the field is all customers count.
Now that means they believe if someone goes into their marketplace and buy’s a cheap pen that counts as a customer. If this is true it is not a bad thing and is do-able as we know the fake accounts will start buying from themselves a cheap product.
Now if this is NOT true based on the video and they are required to have 7 at 24.95 a month for product with no real consumer value as it is they can kiss this baby good bye!!!
Lastly the video was typical bait and switch. Trying to slam WUN to sell XPLOCIAL is hilarious. I mean my super scam is better than your scam?
Wonder if the reps are being fed false info or the company is in damage control mode. Keep me posted! Love this site.
Yes, 7 customers. Son, Daughter, 3 cats and 2 dogs. All with a garage full of stuff.
Reality for Wake Up Now – they are hosed as “Greg” from MCA whose handle is “Kash King” has brought his pack of idiot video scammers like Seemore Greene and already creating incomes and ads touting massive incomes
MCA is screwed due to those lowlifes .. WUN is next
You left out grandma and grandpa. 😉
@Josh
Interesting take, however an affiliate is only capable of doing what a company’s compensaton plan permits them to do in order to get paid.
Both WUN and TVC Matrix have failed to adequately incentivize retail activity, instead offering a far more lucrative option of simply affiliate recruitment.
That’s not on the affiliates, that’s on the companies.
The affiliates who deny it when it’s pointed out to them (doesn’t take much, just ask them how many retail customers they have) are of course responsible for their actions, but that doesn’t absolve a company of its own responsibilities.
Oz:
Here is the problem – “Kash King” as his handle was over at MCA now is over at Wake Up Now going strictly by “Greg”. The problem with this uneducated clown is his videos and marketing platform created a firestorm of the worst kind over at MCA, with folks lying about income and running low ranks videos and ads to the pt where MCA is considered a scam
“Greg” is now in bed with WUN management according to rumors and go watch his video with his yapping about meeting with WUN management …
He is pure cancer that takes down opps and has stated he he doesn’t give a crap except basically seeing how many folks he can screw financially – AND NO ONE DOES IT BETTER THAN “GREG” and his trained idiot boy Seemore Greeen.
WUN – screwed big time with who is now in the bullpen and warming up major MCA scammers like Jay Brown, Aaron Scott, Krystal Taylor, Chris Childs, etc.
I have no love for serial shady scheme jumpers, however I believe the problem lies within both TVC’s and WakeUpNow’s compensation plans.
The companies wouldn’t attract the types of people who play recruitment games if they didn’t offer commissions for participating in just that.
If WUN management are meeting with affiliates known to participate in these schemes, then that only shows that they are wholly aware of what they are running and the affiliate culture they foster within the business.
MLM companies that run recruitment-heavy comp plans are like big vats of shit, with their affiliate buzzing around like flies. If you want to clean up the company you clean out the vat. The flies are only a symptom of an underlying problem.
I think what Oz’s saying is the company, if well designed and knows about MLM, should have kept on top of things and slapped down this Kash guy when he just got started.
Check-flashing is almost ALWAYS bad in MLM. Most MLMs that got in trouble, like Burnlounge, had a lot of checkcashing, esp. if it’s fake. That’s outright fraud.
If it allows the Kash guy to run it rather than the other way around, and this “inspired” (corrupted?) other affiliates to do the same, then it is ultimately responsible for its own (lack of?) management of the affiliates.
And face it, a lot of these serial scheme jumpers are egoists. They believe they know everything (including secret to riches) and they believe they know the company than the company knows itself. Thus, they will try to run their recruiting scheme any way they can, and call company’s attempt to “manage” them as “interference”.
We already saw this happen at Herbalife when top affiliates like MacDougall (sp?) took her downlines to Vemma because she is being “handcuffed” at Herbalife.
Grandma and grandpa will be passed up to a sponsor.
No. People figure out that they got suckered and drop out themselves giving reason for MLMers to say: “We are not responsible for lazy ones, but current members are trying”. And next year the same story.
Folks from MCA like “King King” – sorry “Greg” over at WUN – getting retail customers will happen once that lowlife figures how to screw the system.
Then again with all indications that he is on WUN’s payroll like he was over at MCA, the rules will be rigged to help this “Master Video” scammer.
i have a question. i understand the importance of retail, only and only as a means of proving that the product has a real ‘retail’ value.
but retail is a one off earning , the money a distributor can consistently make month after month ,from his group volume with lesser effort, will always trump retail earnings .
say a guy has a group of 100 distributors under him .his earnings from his group volume will be considerably more than what he can make off a few retail sales. So unless he’s forced , why will he retail?and if he’s forced ,he will ,as is human nature , take the easy way out and dump the stuff in his garage.
how will this resolve the problem? it will just mean that people will have to INVEST more to make money in MLM , which just makes it more high risk .
secondly , since MLM is low investment , low risk kind of opportunity , when a person is approached for retail , most times they will turn around and say , ‘i want to do this too’ .it’s small money they don’t mind trying and failing .so just to meet my retail quota am i supposed to FORCE them to just buy products and shut up about the opportunity .
my point is silly rules just wont work ,forcing people to do anything just wont work .if regulators shut down 10 companies with overpriced or value less products ,every year , this problem will solve itself .
Yeah, that’s why every non-MLM business fails. They make one sale to each customer and then run out of customers. Engage brain please.
Your understanding of retail is flawed, hence your understanding of what you think is the importance of retail is also flawed.
In the Ponzi and pyramid schemes your used to dealing with yes. Usually in regular MLM retail volume counts as PV and is included in residual commission calculation.
The idea being that said guy with 100 distributors under him are all making the majority of their sales volume (PV and communally GV) from retail sales.
MLM should not be an investment outside of the time and effort an affiliate puts into their business.
I’m not about to engage in yet another “Ponzi schemes should be legal” tangent discussion with you. Especially when you throw out flawed definitions and then proceed to base entire arguments and discussion points around them.
Your guy has 10 direct recruited, and they have 10 each.
1 distributor have 110 people in downline
10 distributors have 10 people in downline
100 distributors have 0 people in downline and will quit rapidly, making your guy have only 10 people in downline, until they quit rapidly, making your guy have 0 people in downline.
Your guy must refill his downline with new people each month. MLM simply won’t make any sense without true retail customers.
An average recruiter can only have ONE other distributor as directly recruited (mathematically and logically). An average downline will be less than 2 people.
For MLM to make any sense as an income source, the distributors should preferrably have many more retail customers in downline than distributors.
You CAN use misleading trade practices and make people in downline BELIEVE in other ideas, e.g. believe in the idea that everyone can have 110 people in downline. But it simply isn’t true.
If you’re able to come up with solutions where an average participant can have more than 1 directly recruited participant (mathematically and logically), then feel free to post your solution.
Wake Up Now –
the NUMBER ONE problem is the influx of MCA “marketers” such as SEEMORE GREEN AND “GREG” – aka “Kash King”
MCA is no longer sellable and neither will WUN in a short period of time as the marketing being employed is already based on lies of supposed massive income generated like $40,000 per month as touted by MCA scammer boy Seemor Green
MCA folks are right now screwed as it is perceived as a scam and WUN is quickly following the MCA perception value
Even “legitimate” (read: legal, not necessarily profitable or ethical) MLMs will quickly turn into a pyramid scheme if the distributors use unethical recruiting tactics and/or otherwise play the system without check from corporate.
WHY NOT OZ ???
MLM simply won’t make any sense without true retail customers.- norway
your reasons for wanting true retail appear to be
-as proof that the product is retailable and has value outside the opportunity attached to it
-to avoid the formation of a pyramid scheme , which is in your ‘end of days’ scenario, is BOUND to collapse as the population of the earth is limited blah blah .
so let us force a rule that every distributor MUST have…
(Ozedit: I’m going to stop you there because the rest of your rant is offtopic)
@anjali
“Affiliates must have” and retail value do not go together. Either a product has retail value or it doesn’t.
Having to force affiliates to generate retail sales is a band-aid solution to the greater problem of a lack of retail value.
If you have retail value you have retail sales. This is suck a simple concept to grasp… yet you keep writing long tiresome essays about it arguing otherwise.
If you truly wish to discuss non-MLM buying clubs I suggest you find a suitable medium to do so as BehindMLM is not it.
then what were the US courts doing when they let amway survive on the ten customer rule ? isn’t this ‘must have’?
Only if you’re looking at MLM through the eyes of a Ponzi/pyramid scheme proponent.
If you focus on retail you or your company are never going to be hauled into court to face pyramid charges. At worst you’ll get a request for information from a regulator which, if you’re focused on retail, will take 5 minutes to go over and you can get back to generating retail sales revenue.
Retail volume percentages have long eclipsed any hard number of customer guidelines. Which makes WakeUpNow’s recent changes all the more ineffectively silly.
You missed most of my point …
The IDEA that 100% recruitment based MLM can work is flawed in itself = the idea that participants both can earn a net profit and purchase products. The idea will only work for a very few, it won’t work for the average consumer.
Participants in a recruitment system can logically and mathematically have 1 directly recruited (in average). It doesn’t affect the logic if you have 100 participants recruiting 100 new participants each; a system where all participants recruit 2, 3, 4 or 5 new participants each; or a system with a downline going 20 levels deep.
100% recruitment based MLM simply can’t work as an income opportunity for the average participant. The idea is mathematically and logically flawed, it simply won’t work.
It will work for a very few people at the illegal expense of others, generating “ill gotten gains” rather than “legally earned income”.
100% recruitment based MLM isn’t a legal business model, it will fail to meet several legal definitions. The income opportunity connected to the products will be misleading, failing to meet the fair trade principles. It can’t legally be presented as an income opportunity in marketing or contracts.
Legal definitions typically use “average consumer” and similar definitions to analyse whether something is legal or illegal.
In a 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 downline:
1 person will have 30 people in downline, 4 levels deep
2 people will have 14 people in downline each, 3 deep
4 people will have 6 people each, 2 levels deep
8 people will have 2 people in downline each, 1 deep
16 people will have 0 people in downline
The income opportunity simply can’t work for more than half of the participants. It will work well for 1 or 3 of them (with 30 and 14 in downline), break even for 4 people (with 6 people in downline), and work poorly/not at all for 24 (with 2 and 0 people in downline).
If you make the downline wider, e.g. “1, 3, 9, 27, 81” or “1, 4, 16, 64, 256”, even more people will fail in a 100% recruitment based system. It will only work for a very few near the top.
In a system like that, payouts to people near the top of the pyramid will be generated from money paid in by people near the bottom of the system.
It doesn’t matter how wide or deep you make a system like that, the income opportunity will fail for most of the participants, mathematically, logically and in reality. The idea ITSELF is flawed, it simply can’t work.
At any given time the system will always have more net losers than net winners, so it isn’t really an income opportunity.
Having an income opportunity like that connected to product purchases will simply be a “deceptive trade practice”, designed to mislead the average consumer and distort their financial decisions. Companies using that model will fail to meet the “Lousiana exceptions” for fair trade discussed in the Herbalife thread.
I had no problem accepting the “Lousiana exceptions”. It was simply another way to define the same things.
If the PRIMARY function of having an income opportunity attached to trade of products is to mislead consumers, it’s clearly not a part of fair trade. The practice itself will be misleading and deceptive.
There’s simply no legitimate reasons for a company to have an income opportunity 100% attached to products. Companies use that solution because it makes it easier to sell the products, they can focus on “potential income” rather than the cost of products when selling it to a consumer. But that isn’t a legitimate reason in itself.
It means majority of the company revenue came from retail, not from recruiting distributors who self-consume.
Amway survived in 1979 because it ENFORCED a system actively to prevent inventory loading, not because it “HAD” the system in place. It survived because of a weak case, i.e. the weight of evidence pointed in Amway’s favor.
MLM as a business model have several legal vulnerabilities. Most companies will operate within a grey area between trade and pyramid scheme. A case will need to be built up differently than FTC did in 1979, that case had a too onesided focus on external customers.
It failed in court because of flawed arguments, because of too onesided and too literal interpretation of the rules. Legally, there isn’t any difference between retail purchases when they are done by internal or external consumers, as long as the retail purchases are about exactly the same.
There has to be a legal difference between the purchases, e.g. “qualifying purchases” isn’t legally the same as “consumer purchases”. There’s a legal difference between a consumer purchasing a product and a distributor purchasing a product PLUS the right to earn commission.
Those 2 purchases are clearly different, with different sets of motives. A “qualifying purchase” is simply not a “consumer purchase”, the PRIMARY motive for buying products to qualify for income is completely different.
In consumer purchases, you can normally buy WHEN you want and WHERE you want (e.g. you can freely switch between different stores and sales people).
* You can also make agreements about purchasing primarily or solely from one sales person in one specific store.
* You can make agreements about buying in specific quantities to specific times, e.g. autoship.
* You can make other price related agreements.
What you can’t do in a “consumer purchase” is to pay for an income, “position” or “status”. Most “qualifying purchases” will fail to meet the definitions for “consumer purchases”.
* Herbalife’s “discount sliding scale” is legitimate
* Herbalife’s “supervisor qualification purchase” isn’t
The qualifying purchase when people are upgrading to Supervisors is simply about paying for the income opportunity, paying for the “position” as Supervisor. That’s not a “consumer purchase”.
The discount sliding scale is about quantum discounts. That’s clearly one of the normal consumer purchase methods commonly used by consumers.
MLM as a business model is much more vulnerable to people analysing the realities than to people analysing laws.
Legal procedure is about establishing the facts in a case (checking both sides of it), and about interpreting legal sources (statutory laws, common law, law theory, etc.).
MLM is most vulnerable to facts = to people bringing in facts as arguments rather than laws. Where the legal sources can be vague and have many meanings, the facts can speak loud and clear.
Another reason for why MLM is more vulnerable to facts and to realities is because of where that “industry” have had its focus. It has interpreted the problem to be about the laws, and most of its focus has been directed towards changing the laws in the last 2 decades.
It will be vulnerable to anyone who clearly can show the difference between “consumer purchases” and “income motivated purchases”, in the FACTUAL part of a procedure.
“Internal vs external sales” is a rather weak argument in legal procedure. They can both be about real “consumer purchases”, it isn’t possible to separate them legally.
But you CAN separate them legally if they are different from each other, e.g. if one type of purchase has something attached and the other doesn’t. Any purchase that qualifies for income directly or indirectly will not be a consumer purchase (other types of income than discount based income).
There’s no legal difference between a distributor purchasing products at a discounted price for resale, and a consumer doing the same.
There’s no legal difference between a distributor purchasing discounted products for personal consumption, and a consumer doing the same.
There’s no legal difference between a distributor purchasing in large quantities to earn a higher discount, and a consumer doing the same.
There’s a legal difference between a person purchasing a product WITH income conditions attached and a person purchasing a product WITHOUT such conditions.
FTC prosecutors lost the Amway case in 1979 due to a “per se” legal logic. “It isn’t illegal per se (in itself) for a distributor to purchase goods for personal consumption or for resale”.
A case can’t be built up primarily around the idea of “internal vs external purchases”, it has to be built up around something illegal, about something clearly identified as illegal in the laws.
“A solid case” is normally about having the facts on your side and be clearly able to prove it in Court. A solid case will need to be based on realities and correct logic rather than on theories.
“A defendable case” is about being able to point out weaknesses in your opponent’s facts and logics, and the solid sides of your own. Amway had that type of case in 1979.
“A weak case” is about having facts and logics pointing in both directions. Herbalife had that type of case in Belgium in 2011. Its defense strategy revolved around constructed theories rather than realities, and the realities presented in the case spoke loud and clearly against it.
in non-MLM business set ups retail customers have NO CHOICE but to be retail customers .if the system is turned on it’s head and MOST products get sold the MLM way i would like to see how well non- MLM businesses do .people need products and people need money , combine the two and you have an unbeatable offer .
the legal vulnerabilities exist because there is no perfect definition of MLM and i agree that most companies will always teeter at the edge of being a pyramid scheme. it is difficult to legislate and even MORE difficult to enforce any legislation over large groups of people.
people will always find ingenious ways to circumvent any silly rules that are thrust upon them , and proving or disproving exact percentages retail in courts will be very difficult.
apart from the argument that ‘retail is good’ i am unable to find any deeper logical mooring for oz’s reliance on retail ,because if a pyramid MLM is bound to collapse then so is a retail favoring MLM ,considering the earth’s finite population size.
and if ‘retail is good’ to prove worthtiness of the product then ‘some ‘ retail is good enough .
They do fine.
Get it through your head, pyramid and Ponzi schemes are not new.
I gave you the math and logic for why your idea simply can’t work. The average consumer can only have ONE directly recruited. It won’t work for the average consumer, only for the very few. The income opportunity will not work for most people, so it’s completely pointless having it attached from a consumer perspective.
If 100% of the consumers also have the opportunity as the only income source, all the money in that market will simply be distributed upwards in exchange for products being distributed downwards in the system, until it dries out from the bottom of the system. The system will then collapse.
It can of course be solved by having a tax system distributing most of the money downwards again, until the system has been completely dried out for money. And that will be the end of that civilization.
An idea will need to work in REALITY rather than in “constructed theories”. “Perceived reality” will often work just as well if its not too far from the reality.
Your “perceived reality” fails to meet the realities for most people. “Income opportunity seekers” is a relatively small group compared to all other types of consumers. You will need to change all the consumers first to make your idea work.
A huge number of people will actually become LESS interested if you add an income opportunity to a product, i.e. they don’t have exactly those types of needs. They have more normal social needs and instincts, i.e. they are motivated by completely different factors than income opportunity seekers.
Income opportunity seekers are simply “the low hanging fruits” for anyone selling income opportunities. They do not represent the general market, only around 2% of it.
It isn’t very difficult to prove the legal difference between “consumer purchases” and “income motivated purchases”?
Herbalife’s “discount sliding scale” can CLEARLY fit within completely normal “consumer purchase motives”.
Herbalife’s different “upgrading purchases” and “qualifying purchases” will fail. A small part of it can be accepted (and defended in Court), the part that reasonably can fit within “consumer purchase motives”.
A small part can be defended for other reasons, e.g. as “sales tools” (e.g. a sales strategy can be about offering samples to prospective buyers, where some of them will convert into regular customers).
“Defendable in Court” isn’t about proving or disproving exact percentages, but about what reasonably can be accepted as reality.
The Court in Belgium had a hard time accepting the theory that most distributors PRIMARILY were customers, because the realities presented in the case spoke loud and clearly against the theory. Herbalife’s defense strategy was labeled “constructed theories”, its “perceived reality” wasn’t even close to the reality seen by the Court.
Get it through your head, pyramid and Ponzi schemes are not new.- oz
who said they’re new?who said MLM was new either?
but the scope and reach and sustainability and maintainability of MLM has increased multifold since internet became accessible to individual human beings across the globe .that’s about approx 20 years ago or so? is that a long time considering human history? wait for it mister, MLM is just finding it’s feet.
which peer reviewed study has come to this conclusion? or do you speak for mankind in it’s entirety ? every human is an ‘income opportunity seeker’ seeing that it pays for food on the table.
As better and better products get sold through MLM more and more persons will become interested .everywhere i turn these days, i find big corporate names starting MLM divisions [ johnson&johnson ,modicare].this is going to be HUGE.
“Internet” might be shiny in India but much of the rest of the world has open access to it for well over a decade.
Talking to you is like talking to someone 10-15 years behind in Ponzi scheme history.
Where you are at now? Yeah… there isn’t going to be no Ponzi scheme legalisation revolution. This garbage is spewed out every few years. It increases whenever schemes take off in countries unfamiliar with Ponzis and pyramids, leaving people believing in the marketing garbage for the next 5-10 years.
Still happens in modern countries too, with Zeek Rewards and the generation of “revenue-sharing is not a Ponzi scheme” affiliates that mess left behind.
Ponzi and pyramid schemes don’t work, get over it.
That’s why I mentioned “perceived reality”. It can sometimes work just as well as the reality itself, if it’s close enough.
If you’re surrounded by income opportunity seekers, your “perceived reality” will be that every human is an ‘income opportunity seeker’. You’re probably surrounded by them, while I only know a few who really are very attracted to income opportunities in general.
But I probably know hundreds of people who actually like to spend money on products and services for their own pleasure. They are not very attracted to opportunities or MLM. It’s much more money to make in that market than in MLM (for the average participant).
“Perceived reality” doesn’t work very well if it’s too far from the reality itself. The perceived reality must clearly be reflected in the real World, from all the people around you wherever you are, not limited to a small group of true believers.
The peer review is based on market share for the consumer market in Europe. 2-3% is a relatively realistic number for MLM’s share of that market. It’s actually much lower than 2% if you count ALL types of consumer products and services.
“DS Domination” (MLM drop shipping) made an estimate of around 2 million people total potentially interested in joining an income opportunity (but most of those are already in one or more opportunities).
He presented it as a PROBLEM, with “too many people fishing in the same tiny pool of water, with too few and exhausted fish”. “DS Domination” should be a solution to that problem, trying to expand the pool (attracting more fish).
who are these people you know , who are NOT interested in income opportunities ? oil sheikhs ?
reality is not real [quantum physics] and perceived reality is just a way of stating your ‘opinion’, which is personal and cannot be used to generalize stuff .
good, there will be plenty of malls for them .but who said buying breakfast cereal or coffee from MLM is less pleasurable?
that little ? then why is there so much talk about how MLM will collapse after sucking in the entire world population ?
can you envisage a world where you can purchase daily need products like flour, tea ,coffee, detergents , mobiles , TV’s et all from an online MLM mall , with some profit sharing thrown in ?
many middle class families may be interested in such a concept , norway , you and your friends can comfortably continuing buying your petrossian caviar from france or wherever.
Like I said, your silly “never been done before” ideas for the future of MLM have already been tried and failed.
The “grocery” MLM niche was a thing a few years back. The niche failed and doesn’t exist anymore. MBP Today, one of the last companies in the niche was shut down recently’ish for being a pyramid scheme.
Next you’ll be asking us to envisage a world in which somebody has fused penny auctions with MLM…
looks like they were asking for it oz ! 🙂
1. People with normal jobs, age 45-55 (+/- 15 years)
2. People owning small companies, around the same age
3. Normal jobs + SOME type of business
Some people are not motivated by extra income, e.g. working a couple of hours each day to build up a “side business”. Some are motivated, but those I know are typically not attracted to MLM.
Some of them could potentially be interested if they had been presented for the right type of IDEA (rather than opportunity). I know several website owners doing different types of business, more or less successful.
I know some who CAN be motivated by pyramid schemes and similar “opportunities”, but most of them have quit many years ago. I know some who are interested in online gambling (primarily Poker) rather than opportunities.
Some of the reasons for why most people I know are NOT very interested in MLM are (using pink sun glasses):
1. High emplyment rate, 96-97% (3-4% unemployment)
2. OK education (all types of it)
3. OK jobs (in most aspects of it), $60,000+ per year
4. Social factors (people have “normal” social relations)
MLM simply can’t compete with normal jobs as main income source for most people.
Some of the “lifestyle marketing” failed miserably when CCPro / WMI tried it in 2009 / 2010. Relatively normal income claims worked much better. So I can’t easily sell “The Dream” either.
@anjali
Whether they were asking for it or not via their marketing is irrelevant. They were nailed as a pyramid scheme in court, with founder Gary Calhoun now serving jail time.
The money just isn’t there profit wise to make the companies viable.
MPB Today is just one example of the already failed grocery MLM niche you’re claiming is going to evolve the industry.
Note I’ve put anjali’s responses into the spam bin. Rather tired of her ignoring what people publish, coming up with tangent discussion points and then arguing against herself.
She does it in every discussion she participates in and it’s a headache to moderate the one in ten comments that isn’t waffle spam.
Any news on the big conference call yesterday about the new retail customer requirements?
I haven’t heard anything Lynn, will update if I do.
Currently the same “July/August” comp plan is on the WakeUpNow website so not sure if anything is going to change (it already mentions the retail customer requirement).
Here’s the latest on the WUN regarind retail sales from MMG forum:
REPORT FROM FRIDAY CONFERENCE
1) If you have ANYONE who is a D2 and under they count toward your (7) customers! That is huge!
2) Customers are FREE (They are Preferred Customers).
3) Ability to share deals online and multiple shares between their friends as well give you ALL the commission!
4) All NEW Version 3.0 Hub, which is incredible and simple to use with only one search bar to search EVERYTHING you need!
5) Simple and easy way to get customers through sharing deals, allowing others to test products, etc.
6) All NEW Energy Drinks released! All Natural. Serious Energy. Packed with Super-fruits. All at a price that can’t be beat. 100% Natural and part of the ‘Awaken’ section where now we can tap into ‘Health and Wellness’ with energy drinks, coffee, skin care, and much much more coming (Awaken Coffee with Ganoderm. Kona Blend and Arabica Black).
7) Don’t want the $99.95 or the $24.95? No problem. You can NOW buy pieces of the package (i.e. Finance, Taxbot, etc.) all alone by themselves!
8) Tune in Wednesday evening for the corporate webinar on the NEW incredible Hub!**
Uh, so they basically turned it into a lesser than D2 ranked affiliate recruitment game, rather than an “any rank” affiliate recruitment game?
And how are “free” affiliates counted as preferred customers?
Oh hi there, I’m a WakeUpNowpreferred customer.
Cool, so what do you buy from the company?
Well I… uh.. umm… hang on, let me go and ask my upline.
and what a lineup they have … got a call out of the blue from a guy named Kevin Nungesser out of Floridan on Saturday about joining the “Once in a lifetime” opp named Wake Up Now.
Told him will wait to see if this pans out considering what is unfolding in regards to the MCA inbounders. He went nuts:
1)Started cussing loud
2)Called me a “broke dick”
3)Called me back 10 times cussing
Went and checked … this clown who claims to be “retired” was one of MCA’s big scammers run a group called the “Dream Team” and funny looking at his photo on a site: looks like about 20 which defines what MCA has attracted in regards to the character makeup.
Did some more investigative homework from this Wake Up Now clown named Kevin Nungesser:
1) runs with “Greg” of “Kash King” scamming fame out of MCA
2) has numerous run-ins with the law
3) was booted from MCA over what appears to be Credit Card fraud
He will fit in perfectly … brow beat folks with alleged 6 figure income stories .. when they pass act like a drunken sailor looking for a fight
I’ve seen WAKE UP NOW’s list of “leaders” – appears to be the same band that destroyed MCA’s name
Got info from a guy tonight who has been in the industry for a number of years and has info that is usually pretty accurate
said he looked at WUN and started wondering why “Greg” is being allowed to have free reign and do his out of control marketing agenda that destroyed MCA – looks like WUN management hired “Greg” from MCA for his ability to sell his bullcrap message of supposed financial success which the low end feeders with limited IQs bought in big numbers over at MCA
It adds up if you watch his comments of “meeting with high ranking officials”…. really? a dude who looks and acts like a prison gang member is wanted by WUN management?
MCA is no longer sellable … WUN has no products they own and is strictly a pyramid and the “hired guns” mean corpt is in for the quick buck and then move onto their next rollout
Good luck … this run will be short
Wake Up Now it has been confirmed by one than one source is paying “Greg” a 5 figure monthly fee for “recruiting”
Sadly it happens more times than one thinks in this industry and “Greg” is the MCA scammer boy named “Kash King” over at MCA with his running mate Seemor Green and have now brought into the WUN family major MCA scammers such as Krystal Taylor, Terrence Davis, Chris Childs, Jay Bruce, etc.
WUN made a tragic mistake affiliating with MCA scammers – this program if fast gaining a terrible name for the “flash the cash” marketing approach that was “taught” by “Greg” and company over at MCA
That’s what happens when a company lets its affiliates run them, rather than the other way around: the “top affiliate” turned the whole thing into a recruiting game because he brought in the dough (i.e. a lot of people signing up and peddle the thing), but they brought in recruiters, not sellers.
Recruiters don’t buy stuff because they like the stuff. They buy the bare minimum to keep themselves qualified for commissions, by cloning the top affiliate’s perosnality. That turns the whole thing into effective pyramid schemes.
Okay I have no idea who this Greg is but I want to address some other things.
“And how are “free” affiliates counted as preferred customers?
Oh hi there, I’m a WakeUpNowpreferred customer.
Cool, so what do you buy from the company?”
Preferred customers will shop with our links and we will be paid when they make a purchase. No different than people who have blogs and post affiliate links. So they will be making a purchase.
I use to have my own website, had to apply to all these companies and get the site approved to be an affiliate with whatever. With WakeUpNow it will be same concept. I share links to products, I get paid and much easier because all in one spot.
Someone said the company does not have their own products.. So what? What makes them any different than a company like mysavings.com that hooks up with retailers, signs affiliates and pays them a percentage?
The only difference in this model is the recruiting part but we are independent business owners and this part of the pay plan is no different than any other network marketing or affiliate company.
@Becky
I believe Greg’s question was what do preferred customers “buy from the company”?
You failed to answer that question.
WakeUpNow is not “a website”. It’s an MLM company and as such needs to have a product is markets to retail customers.
What is that product?
The difference is that WakeUpNow is an MLM company. I’d have thought that would have been obvious.
In MLM there are no buts. The “recruiting part” makes WakeUpNow a recruitment-driven MLM opportunity, otherwise known as a pyramid scheme.
I don’t know why I bothered here…
One product is the SAVINGS when they purchase products from thousands of stores. We just do not have to set up accounts with each of these retailers because WakeUpNow has done that. We are affiliates, we make money when people shop.
We will have an Energy drink, a skin care line, and Coffee starting Oct. 1 We have a Tax Software app.
Yes it is a website with a marketplace that people shop when we share our links.
All MLM companies are not “pyramid schemes” You need to open you eyes and quit bashing companies.
With WakeUpNow it is driven by retail sales. People are able to sign up, get discounts when they purchase, if they have a certain amount of points from purchases they can become an Independent Business Owner if they choose. The pay is based on volume.
Savings, otherwise referred to as discounts is not a viable MLM product. You can’t sell “savings”.
What does WakeUpNow itself sell?
You know these are nothing more than affiliate deals between WakeUpNow and third-party companies right? What does WakeUpNow itself sell to retail customers?
No, they aren’t. WakeUpNow seems to fit the category though.
What does WakeUpNow sell to retail customers?
Getting paid on the recruitment of new affiliates out of their paid membership fees has nothing to do with volume or retail sales.
After reading this, all I can say is that I’m so glad to be in a company that is composed of 65% customers
Confirmed from numerous sources that “Greg” of MCA “fame” went he used the handle “Kash King” is on WUN payroll along with his butt buddy Seemor Green – BAD NEWS as that twosome destroyed the MCA name with their “flash the cash” videos which are comically sad.
Wake Up Now has a scam image and getting worse by the day with the influx of major MCA scammers such as Rodney Walker, Brandon Boyd and Jay Brown. Good luck to Wake Up Now as MCA is no longer sellable to those video scammers and WUN is destined to follow the same path based on who management has crawled into bed with.
Neither do we. You probably are “impulse driven”, so it’s a reaction to what you see in front of your own eyes? 🙂
Savings and discounts aren’t retailable products (or services) in themselves. You can potentially charge a minor fee for a discount card or a discount system, but the card or system isn’t a tradeable product in itself.
Price adjustments are part of marketing or sales strategies. For some types of products, offering minor discounts can heavily increase the sale. But you can’t legally SELL the discount itself, e.g. as a commissionable product in MLM. A discount card can be a part of something, e.g. to make a product become more “attractive”. But it won’t add any tradeable VALUE to the product.
That partly answered the first part, the “I don’t know why I bothered here”. You have probably repeated some ideas over and over again until you started to firmly believe in them yourself, and now you want to test those ideas out in the real world. Some selfdev gurus teach methods like that, but the methods will always fail in reality.
LOL obviously none of you have any kind of inside look @ Wake Up Now. If you were half way smart you would see what being a member was actually like before making any judgments.
The membership benefits you get are worth more than the fee alone. That is something every single person on this thread disregarded.
You get a cellphone discount of 22%, grocery coupons worth $50/mo+, access to taxbot (thousands a year in savings if you use it right, 25% off papa johns for life (as well as many other food/store discounts, 15-85% off office depot supplies, and that’s not even one fourth of the benefits LOL. The fact that you can make good money from referring people to the program is just a bonus.
If any of you were HALF WAY smart you would realize that no other MLM has a program like this. MCA and other MLMs are trash simply because the membership isn’t worth the benefits of being a member. Therefore they are true pyramid schemes.
You need to research Wake Up Now because it truly is different from EVERY MLM out there, hence the recent enormous growth rate. Honestly if I explained the benefits of being a member of Wake Up Now I would type a few pages lol, but seriously the majority of you on this thread (although you appear smart because of your choice of wording) are dumb as hell and couldn’t be any more blind.
I highly suggest you look into exactly how the company operates before making the claims you guys have because every single claim disregards so much information and is simply extremely inaccurate…..
@Jangles
Because it’s entirely irrelevant. If you are selling affiliate memberships in MLM and getting paid to do so, you are participating in a pyramid scheme. This is irrespective of what is bundled with said membership.
makes WakeUpNow a pyramid scheme.
Sign up, pay your fee, recruit new affiliates, get paid. Same old tired pyramid scheme recruitment shit.
How many non-affiliates have you signed up vs. affiliates?
Check your OWN ideas first, and make sure they’re reflecting a sound mind. Then you can try to post them publicly. 🙂
You did quite the opposite. You didn’t check your own ideas before posting them on the internet, and they’re reflecting a not so sound mind.
Do you need to become member of “Al Quaida” and get a look at it from the inside to know what it is about, before you can decide? Or can you decide it from the outside?
Can you legally sell something you don’t own or have permission from the owner to sell? You will need a written permission from the cell phone service provider to sell anything that belongs to them.
Since you claim it has tradeable value, please show us the permissions you have from the owners. Or else stop claiming it has any tradeable value.
Can a price or a discount legally be sold as a stand alone product or service? The owner must be able to legally sell it in that way. If the owner can’t legally sell a discount, neither can you.
Price and discount are “mechanisms” in trade, something a merchant can regulate from time to time to regulate his own business, e.g. to sell more or less products. They are not tradeable products in themselves.
So is WUN compliant with “Buying Club Laws”?
If you don’t know, or you don’t even know what are “buying club laws”, then you don’t know enough to even ask the right questions.
If you believe something is incorrect, then please point it out, WHAT and WHY you believe it. But please correct your own ideas first.
“Membership packages” are not tradeable products in themselves (you can charge a fee rather than a PRICE for what they contain). They can contain products or services, and you will need to separate tradeable products from non tradeable if you want to claim any tradeable value.
Third party discounts are not tradeable products in themselves. They are most likely part of the third party’s marketing efforts, and can’t legally be sold to anyone.
The third party can’t legally sell it, and neither can anyone else. The third party can give permissions to use it or distribute it, but that doesn’t mean you have the right to sell it.
You don’t have the RIGHT to make claims like that = written permission from the owners. You’re making misleading marketing claims on behalf of the owners. They can potentially sue you for damages if you’re making claims like that.
Neither you nor Wake Up Now have the right to make claims like that, unless you have written permissions.
@ Oz: If you can make use of the benefits that you get for being a member and actually save money then they are by far no where near irrelevant. Just because you can make money from referring people does not make it a pyramid scheme either.
Maybe a pyramid yes, but then again life is one big pyramid as are most job operations. Also when I said different I was referring to EVERYTHING ELSE in regards to the company besides the fact that you can make money (even though their compensation plan IS different/better than every other MLM.
Again hence the recent enormous growth rate. & I have signed up over 30 non affiliates in comparison to the 12 affiliates I’ve signed up -_- (I’m fairly new to the company). You’ve got to make more educated points than your previous one to stand any kind of chance in this debate…
However, to UNDERSTAND HOW “Al Quaida” operates you would indeed need an inside look. What they do and how they operate is two totally different ideals. Think before you speak/type.
Again you are make assumptions without knowing which is simply irrational. Of course WUN has written permission aka LEGAL DOCUMENTATION with EACH AND EVERY business it affiliates itself with.
Of course none of you would have access to this information as you aren’t even non affiliate members let alone affiliate members lol. I don’t have to show you shit because I am and will continue to make money regardless of whether any of you think this is a legit operation or not (THAT’S THE FUN OF THIS DEBATE).
Again you are disregarding too much to make the claims you are making. WUN in deed has many tradeable products, aside from the discount packages, that they make available to their customers. Yet AGAIN, none of you would be familiar with these because you aren’t non affiliate customers let alone affiliate customers.
Please keep this going I want to see what pointless uneducated remarks you all will make next 🙂
Of course it’s irrelevant, as you are paid to recruit affiliates. What you are actually paid to is all that is relevant in MLM business model analysis.
From the FTC:
http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/inv08-bottom-line-about-multi-level-marketing-plans
So, how many products and/or services do you sell to the public (retail, non-affiliates)?
Oh, that’s right. You just sell the business opportunity, on which you’re paid a commission. As above, what is bundled with said opportunity membership is irrelevant.
Game over son, thanks for playing.
Congratulations, you’re in the minority. As evidenced by the fact the company had to introduce a mandatory retail quota and the protests it got from the affiliate-base (who by and large just recruited affiliates, which was the problem).
Being new to the company and now that you’ve signed up your family and friends – see how you go six months down the track. That warm market affect will wear off soon enough and when you have to sell WUN to the real world without the attached income opportunity, that’s where the problems will start.
Again, and I can’t stress enough, you aren’t in any kind of position to tell me what I sell. I know what I sell, and it’s more than a business opportunity. You are confusing WUN with the majority of the other MLMs. That’s what I’m trying to explain to you.
There are MANY products that I have the option, and do take advantage of that option, to sell to non affiliate customers. That, my friend, would be game over for YOU.
My friends and family? HAHA I haven’t even told my locals, friends, or family about this amazing opportunity. The only affiliates and non affiliates I have informed of these products, business opportunity, and financial opportunity, are random people I don’t even know. That alone should explain the true power of this program.
So we will most definitely see where I stand 6 months from now, and you can damn well believe that I will post on this thread to let all of you know.
#stayhungry
Regards,
Jangles
(Ozedit: recruitment spam and offtopic derail attempt removed)
You sell affiliate memberships to a business opportunity and get paid. If you want to live in your own virtual reality that’s fine – just don’t get upset when the facts collide with your fantasies.
Again, what is bundled with said affiliate membership is irrelvant. You are paid to sell affiliate memberships to an MLM income opportunity, with commissions paid out of said recruited affiliate’s membership fees. This is otherwise known as getting paid to recruit.
The “option” to choose not to recruit does not negate this fact. Getting paid to recruit is an instant pyramid scheme red flag in the MLM industry.
I can join WUN today, mass recruit and get paid. Recruit enough people, set up some fake retail customers to meet the criteria (write them off as losses), encourage others to recruit and off I go.
You’ll find countless promises like this scattered over the pages of this site… but kudos to you if you do return. Past experience dictates that those in recruitment driven opportunities are never heard from again.
Vito Corleone sold olive oil.
Your point being ??
This discussion started with you claiming the VALUE of the different discounts, and me pointing out that discounts are not tradeable products in themselves = you can’t calculate any value for them. Doing so will be misleading marketing statements.
If you want to claim any tradeable value for something, you must separate it from the membership package and show that it really is a tradeable product that can be and are sold in retail.
Wake Up Now itself defines the coupons as “free membership benefits”, something they have added to the membership at no extra cost. They are not claiming any tradeable value for anything (the focus is on savings, not on VALUE). They are very careful in avoiding terms like “worth” and “value”.
Here’s Nehra & Waak’s viewpoint on “Coupons, vouchers, gift certificates and down payments” in MLM (quoting only parts of the article):
http://www.mlmatty.com/2012/09/coupons-vouchers-gift-certificates-and-down-payments/
As you were responding to my question
It seems you don’t know, so you ASSUMED that it is, without proof.
Try again.
Lol like I said I bet you guys think Solavei is a scam and illegal too. Hahahaha I’m not wasting anymore time with you guys. Like I said I’ll holla at you all in 6 months. & Idc what the past indicates you’ll see in 6 months exactly from this date.
#bet
#Jangleskeepshisword
Why don’t you read the Solavei review here? It’s already there. Don’t assume, as you just did again. Lame!
Reviewing a company without actually knowing how it operates (as all of you do) would be assuming my friend.
Don’t be a #hypocrite LOL
Just stop hating on the fact that some of these MLM companies are legit and the fact that taking advertising expenses and using it to pay the consumer to advertise for you is simply genius.
Yet you cannot name ONE THING that we got wrong… You just keep repeating “you don’t understand”, yet you can’t name what we don’t understand. Who’s being a hypocrite?
@Jangles
So you’re asserting that WakeUpNow are presenting a false business model and compensation plan on their website?
That’s even more worrying.
There is very little margin on services, NO margin on discounts and they are not paid an affiliate comission on sales from the stores on their “discount site”.
Where is all this “money” for commissions coming from? what is the commission on selling Taxbot or any of the other services or discounts you can get anywhere on the internet without being a customer of affiliate?
Traditional mlm’s are dead in the water with there little 10% profits on wack products. No one has time to make $1.50 profit selling “tangible products” By the time you make money you’ll be old and grey lol…
with wake up now all you need to do is recruit 12 people on your team to make $600 a month residual. We just had the top guy reach 114k/month and he has been in the business for less than a year
Sing it with me!
Can’t recruit, can’t recruit, can’t recruit in my’uh pyr-rah-amid scheme! P-p-p-peeramid P-p-pah-pah-paaaah…
And how are they making you the money? Hmmm? Who are they selling to?
Or are you selling to yourself, and they are selling to themselves, and you still manage to call yourselves salespeople?
Ok lets sit the recruitment thing to the side. Would you buy a 20.00 bottle of lotion? How about a wake up now product for $99.95 a month? How about $59.00 bottle of vitamins? oh yeah baby theres good money selling mlm products lol.
I hear they are now “building for acquisition.”
i love the language program, and the discounts to local places.
i save so much money i am a single mother and i love it !!!!, it all depends how you use it !!!
Have any of you had a look at the company’s 2013 annual report? It’s comedy gold — $4.5 million net loss for 2013, nearly $15 million in debt and a treasure trove of “concerns.”
Poor financials, misbehavior by distributors (Greg, anyone?), FTC investigation, etc. For extra fun, search for the word “pyramid” and see what they have to say about the laws governing pyramid schemes. It’s in the “risks” section.
It also includes financials for 2012 and 2011 (they lost money in both of those years, too).
It’s available at http://www.otcmarkets.com/otciq/ajax/showFinancialReportById.pdf?id=118605 (originally from their company info page on OTC at http://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/WORC/profile).
It also looks like they’re setting up something fishy with their stock. It stayed at $0.015 for the past couple of years then suddenly “spiked” to $8 right on tax day (April 15) and has been quickly declining again ever since.
Thanks for linking that. With those losses you’d think they’d just throw in the towel, obviously it’s not working.
Looks like a reverse split 250:1 (250 old shares = 1 new share).
Oh, geeze, I didn’t even notice that detail on the very page I linked. Good catch.