Vitel Wireless Review: Recruitment + vendor sales
When I first visited the Vitel website, the system demanded I enter in an existing members details or be randomly assigned to a ‘Platinum Executive Business Owners’ before proceeding.
Clicking the “randomly assign me please” button, I was then kicked over to a website where I could do one of two things:
1. Watch a video inciting me to join Vitel (without revealing any specifics about the company) or
2. Sign up and join Vitel
If I wanted any further information on the company before signing up, there was none. In order to find out more information about Vitel Wireless I actually had to close the Vitel website and hit up Google.
Not good enough guys.
The Company
Vitel Wireless launched in January 2010 and operates out of Texas in the US. Vitel was founded by James Pearson (photo right) and Scott Rogers, with Pearson serving as Chief Operating Officer and Rogers Vitel’s Chief Executive Officer.
Scott Rogers’ Vitel executive bio mentions involvement in a number of non-MLM industries prior to the launch of Vitel.
Rogers Vitel executive bio simply glosses over 2003-2010 stating he was a ‘successful entrepreneur for the last 8 years‘. I wasn’t able to actually nail down any specific MLM companies he’d been a part of.
James Pearson’s executive bio is even more vague simply mentioning the “retail finance industry” and ‘entrepreneurial spirit and finance management experiences‘.
As far as Pearson’s history goes, there doesn’t appear to be anything MLM related prior to 2010 and Vitel Wireless, at least not publicly.
The Vitel Wireless Product Line
Vitel Wireless don’t actually appear to sell anything themselves as a company, but instead offer a range of services through third-party vendor partners.
These services include:
- cell phones
- wireless phone service (post and prepaid)
- energy
- debit cards
- prepaid debit cards
- satellite tv
- home security
Note that the above services aren’t offered by Vitel Wireless themselves but are rather resold services of third-party companies.
The Vitel Wireless Compensation Plan
Vitel’s compensation plan is presented extremely poorly on the company website. There’s little explanation as to what anything means and there is little structure to how the compensation plan is prevented.
At first the reader is pointed to four separate PDF files outlining four unrelated commissions structures, then back on the main page Vitel launch into explanations about bonuses, residual commissions and membership ranks.
Additionally services not mentioned anywhere else on the Vitel website feature in the compensation plan documentation, including “Legal Care Services” and a “Benefits Network”.
In the Vitel compensation plan material a link to a booklet is provided and in perusing this it appears both these services are third-party offers and services made available to ‘Executive’ and ‘Platinum’ Vitel members.
Overview videos are also provided on the compensation plan page, however clicking the link does not work (the HTML link points to ‘%3C%21–/#echo var=site –>.myvitel.com’).
That said below I’ve tried to piece together the mess and make sense of the Vitel compensation plan as I’ve understood it. To keep things simple I’ve separated commissions paid to Vitel and then split with its members, and commissions paid to members directly by Vitel itself.
Vitel Membership Ranks
All of Vitel’s internal commissions are dependent on which of the six Vitel membership ranks a member qualifies for.
The six Vitel membership ranks, along with their qualifications, are as follows:
- Marketing Representative (MR) – default level of all new Vitel members
- Team Leader (TL) – generate $1000 in team volume, with no more than $750 having been generated by a single unilevel leg
- Area Sales Manager (ASM) – generate $10,000 in team volume, with no more than $7,500 having been generated by a single unilevel leg
- Regional Sales Manager (RSM) – have three ASMs in 3 separate unilevel legs and generate $30,000 in team volume with no more than $10,000 having been generated by a single unilevel leg
- National Sales Executive (NSE) – have three RSMs in 3 separate unilevel legs and generate $90,000 in team volume with no more than $30,000 having been generated by a single unilevel leg
- Regional Vice-President (RVP) – have three NSEs in 3 separate unilevel legs and generate $270,000 team volume with no more than $90,000 having been generated by a single unilevel leg
Note that the sales volume amounts above are cumulative totals and include membership fees paid by Vitel members you recruit.
There is also a Fast Track option for membership rank advancement in Vitel, which revolves around generating sales volume ultimately equating to $135,000 in volume (no more than $45,000 from any one unilevel leg) within 180 days of joining the company.
Third-party vendor commissions
Third-party vendor commissions cover all of the third-party products and services Vitel members are able to resell through the company.
Due to the vastly varying nature of the commissions paid out due to the differing nature of the services and/or products themselves, I won’t go into the specifics of the available vendor commissions here.
Commissions on the subscription of a service, sale or use of a product are first paid to Vitel by the applicable vendor, with Vitel then splitting the commission paid to them with the member who sold the service and/or product.
How much of the commission Vitel splits is dependent on a member’s membership rank:
- Marketing Representative – 40%
- Team Leader – 45%
- Area Sales Manager – 50%
- Regional Sales Manager – 55%
- National Sales Executive – 60%
- Regional Vice-President – 60%
This commission is counted as a retail sale by Vitel and generates commissionable volume (CV) within the Vitel compensation plan.
Aside from being used to calculate direct sales commissions owing to Vitel members, this CV is also used to calculate residual commissions offered to members via a unilevel compensation structure.
Override Commissions
Using the CV values assigned when a Vitel member sells a third-party vendor product or service, their upline qualify for override commissions.
An override commission is essentially a commissions spread out over various levels of a member’s upline.
Override commissions in Vitel are paid out as percentages of the applicable CV of the sale as follows:
- Level 1 – 15.5%
- Level 2 – 13%
- Level 3 – 10.5%
- Level 4 – 8%
- Level 5 – 6%
How many levels a Vitel member is paid out on depends on their membership rank:
- MR – paid overrides on Level 1
- TL – paid overrides on Levels 1-2
- ASM – paid overrides on Levels 1-3
- RSM – paid overrides on Levels 1-4
- NSE – paid overrides on Levels 1-5
- RVP– paid overrides on Levels 1-5
Because these are upline commissions, level 1 refers to the member directly above the member who made the sale. Level 2 is the member directly above the level 1 member and so on and so forth.
It can also be easier to think of override commissions as sales being generated by your downline. If they fall within 5 levels (or however many you qualify for as above), then you earn a commission depending on how many levels up you are of them.
Matching Override Bonus
A Matching Override Bonus is paid out as a percentage of the override commissions paid out to every personally recruited member in a Vitel member’s downline.
How much of a Matching Override Bonus a Vitel member earns is dependent on their membership rank:
- MR – pays 3%
- TL – pays 5%
- ASM – pays 10%
- RSM – pays 15%
- NSE – pays 20%
- RVP – pays 20%
Generation Bonus
Vitel offer a Generation Bonus to all National Sales Executives (NSE) and Regional Vice-Presidents (RVP) that allow them to be paid out residual commissions beyond 5 levels.
A generation begins when one NSE or RVP is found in a Vitel member’s downline, and ends when another NSE or RVP is found (NSE’s are paid out on NSE generations and RVPs on RVP generations).
For commission purposes, a generation is defined as all members between the first found NSE or RVP and the next one in their downline. A second generation would then be all the members between the second NSE and RVP and third one in your downline.
Note that each unilevel leg in your organisation operates independently with its own qualifying generations.
Using these generation definitions, NSE members are able to earn 3% of the total commissionable volume generated by up to 5 generations deep and RVP members are able to earn 5%.
Recruitment Commissions
The Vitel compensation plan offers members commissions for each new paid member recruited into their downline (either personally or via team effort).
- Executive members earn $5 per new Agent recruited (3 in a week = $15 bonus), $10 per Executive member recruited (3 in a week = $30 bonus), $10 per new Platinum member recruited (3 in a week = $30 bonus)
- Platinum members earn $5 per new Agent recruited (3 in a week = $15 bonus), $15 per Executive member recruited (3 in a week = $30 bonus), $25 per new Platinum member recruited (3 in a week = $50 bonus)
Both Executive and Platinum Vitel members are able to earn a Team Fast Start Bonus if they make $25 in CV sales volume (membership fees don’t count) in a given week.
The Team Fast Start Bonus pays out $3 on the team recruitment of any new Executive and Platinum members on levels 2-5 of a member’s unilevel organisation.
Additionally if Platinum members sell a single product with a CV value of over $25, they earn an additional monthly bonus equal to the sum total of the Team Fast Start Bonus earnt for that month.
Residual Recruitment Commissions
Both Executive and Platinum Vitel members earn monthly residual commissions everytime recruited members in their downline pay their monthly membership fees.
- Executive members earn residual recruitment commissions down 5 levels of their unilevel organisation – $1 for every Agent and $5 for every Executive and Platinum member
- Platinum members earn residual recruitment commissions down 7 levels of their unilevel organisation – $1 for every Agent and $7 for every Executive and Platinum member
Referral Bonuses
In addition to dollar commissions paid out on the recruitment of new members, Vitel also offer service incentives to their members. These service incentives are “free” offerings of Vitel’s offered vendor products and services.
Qualification for Vitel’s Referral Bonuses incrementally range from the recruitment of 3 Executive or Platinum members to the recruitment of 25 Platinum members ($750 a month car bonus, with only Platinum members able to qualify).
Profit Sharing Pool
5% of the total commissionable volume made by Vitel members goes into a profit-sharing pool, which is then paid out to NSE and RVP members quarterly.
NSE members who generate $60,000 CV in two out of the three months for the quarter earn a share in 40% of the profit-sharing pool.
RVP members who generate $90,000 CV in two out of the three months for the quarter earn a share in 60% of the profit-sharing pool.
Joining Vitel Wireless
Membership to Vitel Wireless comes in three varieties:
- Agent membership – $29.95 a month
- Executive membership – $59.95 a month
- Platinum membership – $99.95 a month
Conclusion
First and foremost I can’t help but mention that the presentation of Vitel’s compensation plan, along with their website in general (demanding you sign up without divulging any company information) is horrendous.
I don’t know how many compensation plan revisions the company has gone through but I get the strong sense that what Vitel are using today has been cobbled together from a bunch of previous plans, with little to no thought put into how the plan now reads as a whole.
It’s stupidly complicated presentation wise and given the practical simplicity of the plan once understood, has no reason to be.
Part of the problem I believe also might be due to the fact that Vitel themselves only sell memberships, with all other services and products coming from third-party vendors. This I suspect is why members are given five confusing looking PDF files which are essentially a bunch of CV numbers with little to no explanation or presentation.
For a company that launched in 2010 I think this reflects extremely poorly on the Vitel business itself and I sincerely hope is not indicative of how the rest of the business is run.
That said, in breaking down the compensation plan I’ve identified two sources of company revenue and commissions.
The first are the vendor product and service sales, which I have no problem with. Well, I wouldn’t if Vitel were a single level affiliate program, but they’re not.
Because these third-party products and services aren’t offered by Vitel themselves, mechanically money is paid to the vendors, who then pay Vitel who then split the commission they receive with affiliates.
These commissions then translate over into commisionable volume and pay much the same as any other product-based MLM company using a unilevel commission structure.
Vitel themselves aren’t selling anything though and with the only other thing purchasable from Vitel being company membership, practically speaking that means Vitel themselves have no retail offering.
Again, not so much of an issue if they were a single-level affiliate program but when you look at the money Vitel themselves take in and what they pay out, things start to get messy.
For starters, revenue wise Vitel only take in membership fees. All vendor services and products are paid directly to the vendors in question, who then pay Vitel.
Out of the membership fees Vitel take in, they then pay out a series of recruitment commissions. And with membership fees counting towards CV that qualifies for membership rank advancement, it’s entirely possible to join Vitel, do nothing but pay your monthly membership fees, recruit other paid members and earn a sizeable monthly commissions check.
Infact, Vitel themselves even go ahead and encourage this themselves:
As a Platinum Distributor, if you were to personally enroll just seven Platinum Distributors like yourself and teach them to duplicate that through all seven levels, your potential residual earnings would be over $546,000.00 a month!
Even just five levels offers potential residual earnings of over $21,000.00 month after month!
Note that the recruitment bonuses Vitel pay out have to come from membership fees, as it’s highly unlikely the vendors would be paying out enough of a commission to Vitel to split with its members and cover the generous recruitment based commissions company pays out.
This then naturally raises the question of whether the Vitel compensation plan would be able to survive without membership fees being paid. And as far as I can tell, the answer to this is no.
Apart from Vitel not being able to remain competitive on their retail front if they were paying out recruitment commissions out of the commissions they received from vendors, the company state that if a Platinum Vitel member recruits six other Platinum members and thus qualifies for “free membership”, recruitment commissions are not paid out on these members.
Platinum Distributors who personally sponsor six other Platinum Distributors will have their business provided for free.
You will not earn residual on Platinum Distributors who receive a refund of the monthly fee.
Mechanically this is because once qualifying for “free membership”, these particular members cease to put any money into the system each month and thus there’s no money to pay out.
With Vitel themselves offering no product or services other than membership (their legal services and benefits system is bundled with membership and is not a sale in and of itself), and paying out recruitment commissions based on the recruitment of new members, ultimately what we have here is a pyramid scheme attached to a series of third-party legitimate vendor offers.
Again, nothing wrong with the vendor and CV (non-membership fee) side of the business, but there’s huge red flags here as far as Vitel membership fees and the abundance of recruitment commissions the company offers to its members.
If Vitel ceased to exist tomorrow, all of the vendor services and products would still be available because they’re not offered by Vitel themselves. The only thing that would stop would be the monthly membership fees and associated recruitment commissions.
Given that you can’t ask whether people would buy Vitel’s products without the attached income opportunity (because there are no Vitel products, a giant red flag in itself), the key question is then reduced to “would Vitel survive without its recruitment commission incentives and monthly membership fees?”
Not a chance.
In other words, Vitel is just a MLM “feeder plan” into whatever unrelated services they offered
Pretty much. You could attach Vitel to anything and the core of the business would remain the same.
The only thing Vitel themselves market is membership.
@OZ, I respect third party reviews, and journalism! What I have a problem with is reporters, blogs, and columnist that do not reach out to the company they are commenting on or reporting on to gather information and or facts prior to reporting.
I am not here to dis credit any information provided, but simply to clafify your statements.
Please email me directly (privately) so I can address your comments with a much clearer factual picture so that you may do a factual follow up and point out any factual flaws on the companies end, or your end for that matter! I look forward to hearing from you, Thanks Scott Rogers
Feel free to clarify any mistakes you feel were made here, out in the open where everyone can review, analyse and discuss them. I’m not interested in backdoor talks and undercover self-serving PR ops.
Just like anyone else you’re free to join in the open and transparent discussion here. Would you not agree that any clarifications that you feel need to be made would be of interest to the general public and those conducting their due diligence on Vitel?
My information regarding Vitel was sourced from your compensation plan and website, so I’m not sure where you’re pulling the ‘you didn’t gather information’ crap from either.
@Oz, we have never met, nor have been introduced. To us the word “Crap” clearly states your non objective view (s).
I have no problem posting my official reply in public or through commenting as I would expect you to anyhow and prefer you did for that matter. I was wanting to address each item specifically and was doing so.
Since your blog, wont let me bold my responses or code them by color I wanted to address them where you could post accordingly. Either way, assumptions are critical either positive or negative.
Dooly’s family members are in it……. RUN!
@Scott Rogers
I can bold my comments just fine.
Or even
Maybe you just need to learn some HTML.
@Polar
Now that’s a bit too much “insinuation”.
@Scott
Wonderful, here’s a tissue.
This entire review was based on information sourced directly from Vitel, and you want to start off by insinuating the source of the information isn’t factual because I didn’t call you up and ask what you had for dinner last night?
Yeah, like I said… crap.
I get enough “Hey you’re full of shit! Contact me privately for the real story” nonsense from MLM company affiliates, I don’t need (or expect) it from CEOs too.
So why then have you thus far failed to specifically address any one part of the review?
You need pretty colors and formatting to clarify just what you feel would be a “much clearer factual picture” of Vitel?
Riiiiiiiiiight…
I spent a good few hours on this review and at least as far as the compensation analysis goes believe it to be wholly accurate. Hell I even quoted company documentation clearly demonstrating the main points.
Feel free to “specifically” point out why this isn’t so or quit wasting my time. I’m not a consultant, I’m a reviewer thus why on Earth would I waste my time contacting you unless there was something I felt needed clarifying?
As convoluted as Vitel’s compensation plan is in both presentation and content, I still felt it was sufficient enough for deconstruction and analysis for the purposes of a review of the company.
(this is usually where you complain about having entered a “hostile environment” or some such and wander off)
He was referring to your “can I address you in private” reply.
he had seen a LOT of that offer before, from shady companies that are pretty blatant pyramid schemes.
You can always address one issue per comment, if you feel it’s gonna be quite long. In fact, it’d be better that way so we can comment on your disagreements as well.
I like the transparency! I appreciate the information provided on this website with open, honest reviews on MLM businesses. All factual, all numbers, and cut to the chase words…
Many people would not have lost so much money in Zeek Rewards had the came here, or Kchang’s hub pages to get true information.
I’m tired of biased information, or biased messengers like Dooly.
Too many people are trying to line their pockets with other people’s money with get rich quick plans, without regard to who its affecting.
If you are a real MLM org. worth anyone’s time you can post your facts, and your numbers on here; and let the facts stand for themselves.
Men lie, women lie, dogs lie(down), but numbers don’t lie.
And Oz, lighten up a little, will ya? 🙂 Unless you want me to play the good cop while you play the bad cop. 😀
I was merely reflecting Scott’s opening tone and insinuation:
and the standard ‘call me for the real story’ response.
I’m not a consultant, what do I need to call Scott up for? This is a review from the prospective of someone doing their due diligence on Vitel based on information that’s publicly available.
I suppose if I’d of called Paul Burks up then Zeek Rewards wouldn’t have been a Ponzi scheme then…
I will post an offical response soon. We have a 30 day free trial that allows people to objectively see our company as a whole and how we operate prior to spending any money with our company for a reason.
You may get a lot of your “full of Shi_” from a lot of companies, but we are not a lot of companies are we? You are grouping us with others. Pre judgement, pre fact, and so on.
We do not claim to know it all or be perfect, we are striving to be a good solid company with a strong foundation. Our intent is and always will be for the distributor to succeed.
If there is negative information out there so be it as long as it is fact and can be backed up. I am not defensive nor do I think we are perfect. I just simply want factual, accurate information posted, not assumptions.
After gathering the correct information, facts, and so on if you still stand behind your comments I will respect them as everyone is entitled to their objective opinions regardless of what others say or thing. Although, some have agendas.
What baffles me is we have been around for 2 years and this is the first post on us?
At the “Agent” level, which is the only level you can’t earn recruitment commissions on.
The Executive and Platinum membership levels have recruitment commissions and they have no trial (as per the Vitel compensation plan).
I grouped you based on your tincan “contact me” response. The standard response any MLM reviewer seems to get when they write something a company disagrees with.
Great, because I never said you did or were. Neither is this review about “whether or not Vitel know it all or are prefect”.
Is backed up by the Vitel compensation plan good enough?
Well with all due respect, unless the information presented on the Vitel website and compensation plan is not accurate and a misleading representation of internal company mechanics, where else would I be standing?
Mr. Rogers, just start posting the rebuttal, will ya? Even a couple quick points would help in clear dialog.
After all, you must have spotted something you consider inaccurate.
We don’t need a 35 page analysis like Mr. Clements did on Zeek… so detailed and so late he only released it AFTER Zeek was closed.
Your right K.Chang, I’m sorry Scott. I use troy dooly as a negative indicator for all things MLM and “I just got a call from Scott Rogers” that dooly seems to announce weekly and then segways/cheerleads into vitel dose not put vttel in a favorable light.
From what I remember, Oz reviews companies that mentioned in the news a lot, and sometimes, requests. Vitel had that “Zeek Rescue” plan a while back and was pulled after a week or so, right?
Reason behind the system doing this simply is for fairness to the distributors out there building the business, without a rotator leads would come into corporate and not be evenly distributed.
The rotator eliminates this You could go to the main vitelwireless.com domain of any representative and get complete details under the company tab.
There are many pages on vitelwireless.com (access via any reps replicated page) that explain everything there is to know, we have made it a point to be clear, transparent, and forthcoming.
January 2010, with 5 partners.
Scott Rogers’ Vitel executive bio mentions involvement in a number of non-MLM industries prior to the launch of Vitel and as best as I can tell, from around 2003 onwards Rogers began to brand himself online as an internet marketing consultant/coach/trainer type figure.
You have the wrong Scott Rogers, there is a Scott Rogers that is publicly out there on the internet that is connected to MLM, hence his picture is very different than that of mine.
Again you have the wrong Scott Rogers. Prior contact with the company, if one wanted to make sure they were not posting inaccurate information would have cleared this up.
My background, is turnaround mgmt, start ups, and building brands.
It is not vague, it simply is that he has stuck with the same career and business throughout his tenure.
What you “dug up” about a James Pearson is someone vastly different than the one at Vitel corporate office. Again, the wrong James Pearson.
That is true, he has no background in MLM.
Not an accurate statement. Our company’s core focus isn’t in just selling our own product and service. When selling your own product you first have to train people on a new product, source, logistics, study, manufacture, and so on. We are a customer acquisition company.
We acquire customers for providers who are already tried, true, and proven, taking the guess work out of network marketing and MLM. Our model allows the distributors to sell products that everyone knows, trusts, and uses daily.
Having our own product or service: We developed a real time proprietary bill payment system that is the first of its kind directly connected in real time to each provider. Also, we have developed the Vitel Benefits Network that resembles the likes of Pre-Paid Legal and MCA, to name a couple.
So to answer your accusation we do have two of our own services, and none of our own actual physical product. (Currently)
Contrary to popular belief a successful mlm company doesn’t necessarily need to have their own product, albeit we do, they can also thrive by having their own unique selling proposition that allows the company to standout amongst the competition.
Vitel certainly has their own unique selling proposition compared to our competitors.
This isn’t different for many of our competing companies in this industry that have had many years of success.
The distinction that needs to be understood is that there is a difference between typical affiliate relationship and a partner relationship in the distribution of those services. Vitel operates based on specific partnership agreements.
I would say this is simply an opinion, or what you may not have fully read and interpreted We explain the comp plan and also gives specific details on the replicated Vitelwireless.com member sites under the “company” tab at the top.
The Benefits Network is a Vitel Service of its own….
This is only the direct sale aspect, if you research further you will see we literally pay out up to 100% of the Commission received on various sales through 5 levels.
Bonuses are paid for selling the Vitel Benefits Network (Vitel’s own service), that also includes the business aspect of the company too. You get it all bundled vs. separately like other companies. You pay for your Benefit Network, Back office, website, and marketing system together.
Very mis-informed, as noted above. Maybe, revisit the site to get more specifics? All information: Terms and conditions, policies and procedures, comp plan, products, commission values, and much more are available without having to enter anything?
Our product compensation has never been changed, our Benefits Network has been enhanced once since launching.
Given our extreme growth this year, and monthly it appears that many are clear on the compensation plan and do not see it as “stupidly complicated”. I think your comment speaks to your lack of understanding of our compensation plan due to not having fully reviewed it.
You are given PDF’s that are specific to the product being sold, as part of the compensation page that gives full details.
It seems abundantly clear that you do not fully understand the Vitel compensation plan that you are offer a review of, yet details are and have been fully available to anyone.
No different from ACN, LightYear Wireless, 5linx, and many others.
The Benefits Network is a retail offering. Additionally, a lack of understanding of our partnership relationships and how we operate our business model which has been working very well.
Simply take AAA, pre-paid legal, and MCA and we ahve all 3 under one roof with our Benefits Network, are you claiming that those 3 companies are what you claim ours to be?
On partnership product sales payout is up to 100%, what is messy about that? Regarding the Benefits Network, we pay out 50%. Our payout dwarfs most, if not all other competitors, while offering a lower start up cost for our top enrollment position/membership.
Again, we operate from partnership agreements as to our non membership product, and this model is tested and proven in various business categories. This minimizes Vitel operation cost so that we can offer greater compensation to our representatives.
There is nothing inherently wrong with that since we offer a viable legitimate product/service which is our Vitel Benefits Network. We have members that are not heavily focused on personal recruiting but the Partnership product sales because they like and use the Vitel Benefits Network as a customer.
Most members are engaged in both aspects of our compensation allowing for the necessary balance required by FTC to evolve and sustain itself. Again, successful companies such as ACN and 5links clearly indicate that our business model is viable and effective for the long term.
Again, MCA and Pre Paid Legal have accomplished this and we have both in one opportunity. Meaning we have a dual compensation plan involving a valuable membership that benefits consumers and opportunity seekers alike, while offering other partnership products/services for additional compensation.
Our membership product is really no different that a Juice or Vitamin company with their “special blend”.
You have conveniently attempted to find a claim for a pyramid scheme where non-exist. As noted above our business model is very much in line with other well established and proven companies in this industry that are above reproach.
Additionally, we have some very exciting enhancement coming out at our Atlanta Super Saturday meeting on September 8, 2012 that will provided our members even great means to profit from customer sales of all our products and services.
We are not front loaded, as we pay out evenly on the Front and the back end. The most it cost to join our business is $99.95, unlike many others. You agree that there’s nothing wrong, in your opinion, one side of our business.
I think I have cleared up for the general public, even if you feel different, how the “other side” of our business is just fine and in line with many other proven companies.
It also is essential to note that Vitel is much younger than our core competitors and we could not even began to be remotely judge compensation “abundance” for several years.
First, there no reason to think a viable membership would cease to exist. AAA has been around a long time, not to mention PrePaid Legal and M.C.A.
Secondly, the partnership relationship with our other products should help the consumer feel good about doing business through us for those services because those are well established or growing household names in the market place and they don’t have to fear their services being interrupted if by chance something happen to a young and growing company.
We are quite proud of this, in light of the many MVNO cell phone companies that have come and gone leaving customer hanging with no recourse.
I think your question is without merit as noted above in many instances. In all aspects of Vitel’s business we offer products and services that are already being used in the market place by the average consumer.
Our partnership relationships and self designed Vitel Benefits membership is something that consumers have been proven to purchase for years, and projected years to come. It is very common for any network marketing company to offer the best incentives it can to attract members that will sale the company’s products.
We are confident that we are operating right in line with acceptable practices in the network marketing industry. As well as, we have a lot more to come that will continue to make Vitel an even greater company and opportunity for those looking for a great home business.
The reason why is irrelevant. The mere fact that I have to be assigned to someone’s downline before I can review any information about the company is a red flag, and indicative that recruitment is at the forefront of the business model.
Thanks for clearing that up, along with Pearson’s history. I made it clear I wasn’t sure if I had the same person in both instances so I’ll go ahead and update those respective sections of under the company history.
You’ve clarified Pearson’s lack of history in MLM, can you clarify your own involvement or lack thereof in MLM?
So? Your members do not market this service to retail customers so it’s completely irrelevant. You have a payment processing system, good for you – meanwhile as a retail customer it’s not something I can purchase.
Who you resemble is irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
I’m sorry but yes they do. Whether it’s a service or physical product, all MLM companies need to be selling a product or service (not just access to) to retail customers.
Vitel do not have a product themselves that they are selling at a retail level. When combined with the recruitment commissions paid out upon the acquisition of new members, this strongly resembles the mechanics of a pyramid scheme.
Your competitors are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
Your competitors are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
Of course it’s an opinion. Whilst certainly not infallible, it’s the opinion of someone who has been analysing MLM compensation plans day in and day out for almost 3 and a half years.
It’s rare these days that I get a headache from going over a compensation plan. It’s also rare that it takes me over 9 hours to break it apart.
The Vitel compensation plan in itself isn’t complicated, it’s the presentation that is unecessarily convoluted.
Which is not sold at a retail level and is thus irrelevant.
Well duh, that particular section of the review was only dealing with the direct sale aspect.
Can I or can I not purchase the benefits network without joining Vitel?
As per the compensation plan it is membership to Vitel which is sold and purchased. What is and isn’t bundled with membership is irrelevant.
It’s no different to blatant pyramid schemes trying to pass off the purchase of “advertising credits” with company membership. At the end of the day the fact still stands: Membership is what’s being purchased, nothing else.
Myvitel.com demands information (and was my first point of contact). Vitelwireless.com is useless without a referral (system assigned or otherwise).
As mentioned earlier, this is a red flag that indicates a focus on recruitment rather than a retail product offering (which isn’t at all surprising, seeing as Vitel doesn’t have one).
Irrelevant.
I’ve reviewed hundreds of MLM compensation plans and spent over 9 hours on Vitel’s alone. If I didn’t understand it wholly I wouldn’t have reviewed it.
Don’t waste your time and mine with the old ‘you just don’t understand us’ chestnut. It’s a favourite of scammers and does you no favours (I’m not insintuating you’re a scammer, just offering some advice – you already hit strike one with ‘call me for the real story’).
You’re bombarded with a bajillion numbers that will make little sense to a layman, with or without the convoluted compensation plan essay. Forget about not having a retail product or offering, at least conceede that the presentation of Vitel’s compensation plan is garbage and needs some serious work.
Oh dear… there it is. Next you’ll be accusing me of bias, or having an agenda, or working for a competitor…
What other companies do is irrelvant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
Can I or can I not purchase access to the benefits network without joining Vitel? As per the compensation plan I can’t.
Your partnership relationships are only relevant in that they show Vitel has no retailable products or services. Anything beyond that within the context of business model analysis and review is irrelevant.
What other companies do is irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
Given that you can’t purchase the Benefits Network and are indeed only paying for Vitel membership, all I read there was “we don’t make any money from the 3rd party vendor services and products we offer, all we make money on is the sale of company memberships“.
Your competitors are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
However you dress it up, Vitel still has no retailable product or service and is paying out commissions upon the recruitment of new members, with those commissions being paid out of membership fees being paid.
As per above, you also conceede that Vitel itself only makes a profit from membership dues of its members.
Why you do it is irrelevant, the fact that you are doing it is a red flag.
Given that I cannot purchase the Vitel Benefits Network, the above statement is fundamentally incorrect.
There is something massively wrong with selling memberships and paying out recruitment commissions from said memberships.
What your members are focused on is irrelevant. What is possible within the framework of your compensation plan is all that matters.
Currently I can join Vitel, sign up a bunch of people and make recruitment commissions out of the money they pay in membership fees. No products or services are sold other than Vitel membership.
Other companies and their alleged success are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
What other companies have accomplished is irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
What you “have” isn’t the problem. The problem is Vitel’s only commissionable product is company membership, all other products and services are offered by 3rd party vendors.
Why is this a problem? Because Vitel also offer recruitment commissions upon the acquisition of new members. During which no products or services are sold other than Vitel membership.
Other well established and proven companies are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
What you have “coming out” is irrelevant. Your current business model is the primary focus of this review and discussion.
Whether you are or not is irrelevant, and I don’t believe was ever brought up. The problem is the lack of retail products or services. Vitel only sell membership themselves, nothing else.
What it costs to join other businesses is irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
Other proven companies are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
All that’s clear is the lack of retail products and services Vitel offer, that membership is the only thing purchasable directly from Vitel itself and the recruitment commissions paid out upon the acquisition of new Vitel members.
How old you are and your core competitors are irrelevant. Stop hiding behind other companies.
As far as the income opportunity goes, yes it would. Simply because within Vitel the only commissionable “product” is membership. Which in MLM is not a viable product in and of itself. And when recruitment commissions are being offered, that’s most definitely wading into pyramid scheme territory.
Forget about merit and just answer it:
“would Vitel survive without its recruitment commission incentives and monthly membership fees?”
Even you wouldn’t deny that most of your members are in it for the income opportunity, and without your membership fees and recruitment commissions I don’t imagine Vitel would last long without either.
Go back to the drawing board and come out with a retailable product or service, or drop the MLM compensation plan and switch to a straight affiliate model.
Until either of those plans are actioned the foundation of a MLM company without a retailable product or service is going to be non-existent.
Okay, I checked it myself.
When i access vitelwireless I got same site as myvitel.
When I visited myvitel, I see no way to get to any info without hitting the rotator. I have to click on that “pick a random guy” to get more info.
I think that was the problem Oz was referring to. it is annoying that in order just to see generic corporate info I have to pick a sponsor.
There’s nothing wrong with having a rotating (dice roller) to assign the random web surfer as lead to a sponsor. The problem is when do you do it.
Someone looking for info on the brand don’t want to talk to a sponsor just yet. That is a potential turnoff. Basically, it makes your website look like a lead capture page, used by bazillion “opportunity” folks online.
Better to save that for “to learn more, contact one of our representatives by clicking here…” and put some real information out front where everybody can see it.
To somewhat more blunt, Vitel right now resembles FHTM junior edition.
(FHTM sells phone service, DISH, magazines, and bazillion other things as affiliates, and was sued out of several states as pyramid schemes, though corp insist it’s “rogue reps”. )
Oz, thanks for the info. You are doing a wonderful job analyzing vitel’s business model. As for troy dooly, I wonder why he loves this company so much.
Props to CEO Scott Rogers for stepping up to bat for Vitel in this forum and much props to Oz for the intake on Vitel.
People can actually make a decision about Vitel with a careful assessment from these two points of view.
It would help to add a disclaimer on the website explaining the reasoning behind having to choose a sponsor before being allowed to view company specific content.
And of course, people should be free to choose who they would like to be sponsored by.
Scott,
I think the problems you’re going to have with regard to the “pyramid” issue is that you’ve lumped a distributor position (platinum for example) with what you’re calling a retail product. By MLM terms a retail product has no ability to earn income.
Therefore someone purchasing that “product” should be purchasing it because it has actual retail value, not to make money. An AG could very easily attack your comp plan and label it as a pyramid because you don’t require the outside purchase of an actual retail product.
I see no problem with requiring a fee but it’s when you lump to the two together where you’re skating on thin ice.
For example, let’s say the fee you charged to be a platinum was $69 and then the fee for the Benefit product was $30. You could then offer that $30 benefit product to both distributors AND customers.
Right now, the only person that can purchase that is a distributor (someone that can participate in the compensation structure). That’s where the pyramid issue comes in. Splitting them up would solve that for you.
You also mentioned companies like ACN and Light Year as being similar to what you do. I don’t see that at all.
First, both of those companies require sales of retail services which are SEPARATE from their fee to join. Second, both of those companies require sales of additional services (or points they assign to their services) in order to be qualified for further bonuses as a distributor moves up the leadership ranks.
From what I see in Vitel the only thing you’re required to sell/purchase personally is your membership fee ($99). I know in ACN and Lightyear they require multiple personal customers (points) to advance and qualify for greater income.
It was Excel Comm that set that precedent years ago where AGs came after them and Excel was able to show it wasn’t a pyramid and that their bonus structure was legal because reps couldn’t qualify for bonuses just by paying the fee to join, they actually had to have retail sales.
Look at YTB. They got in A LOT of trouble because they didn’t require travel to be sold. All you had to purchase was the $50 travel site and they tried to call that a retail product.
The problem was that no retail customers could purchase that product – only distributors. And what was worse was that was the only product ever required to be a part of the comp plan. You could work your way up to Director and max out the comp plan all with just the $50/month travel site fee.
That is a very close description to what your comp plan looks like. What I would recommend is the sale of actual retail services (services that can be sold to non-distributor/comp plan participating) in order to be qualified to earn bonuses and commissions.
That sale could be the distributor themselves but then you could at least argue that your revenue you’re paying the bonus on is qualified by a retail purchase.
Again, take the example above. Require a distributor to pay the $69 fee to join but then they need to generate 1 retail product purchase or sale from their site in order to qualify to earn bonuses. That could be the $30 benefit product (but remember, you’re going to have to create a benefit product not associated with the comp plan that can be purchased by retail customers).
You also should be very careful in all of the language your distributors are using. They are saying things like “earn free wireless,” “Free Internet,” etc. Yet, the “free” they are referring to has nothing to do with actual product sales of those products. The free is associated 100% with paying DISTRIBUTORS.
There isn’t even a requirement the distributor be paying for their service through Vitel. That to me is another scary situation where you’re leaving yourself wide open to an AG attack.
The entire focus of your company should be to drive volume of real services. If an AG looks into your company and they see that a huge majority of your company profits come from distributor fees and not real products they will shut you down. It’s been seen over and over again in MLM.
If I were you I would reach out to an MLM attorney like Kevin Thompson and retain him to review your comp plan. I would bet he’d advise you the same way I have.
Hope that advice helps!
Does that mean you have some “customer:affiliate ratio” rules or something similar?
I browsed through you comment, but was only able to find that you have some members who are not heavily focused on recruiting.
So you’re recruiting customers who have the right to recruit other customers into a downline, and earn commissions?
MLM Advocate is correct. Part of Vitel’s problem is its lack of transparency UNLESS you join. Just for that, it may be vulnerable to having “shrink-wrapped contract”.
Part of the analysis of Zeek was the affiliate to customer revenue ratio. Most of the revenue seem to be from the affiliates, NOT customers (SEC says the ration is 50 to 1: 50 affiliate dollars to 1 customer dollar).
Vitel is vulnerable because Vitel seem to be heavy in “self-consumption”, i.e. affiliates are expected to use Vitel’s services.
This creates SEVERE vulnerabilities if the regulators choose to see your business as a pyramid scheme, and all the affiliates are affiliates… almost no external non-affiliate revenue.
Remember the Omnitrition decision as well. Retail sales needs to be made to people NOT IN the company.
I believe Herbalife / Melaleuca deal with this by separating the “affiliates”, who intend to earn income, from the “preferred customers”, who do NOT intend to earn income. The former are inside, the latter are outside. Both are “enrolled”, but there’s a formal distinction.
@Kchang: Maybe re visist the site vitelwireless.com you can view all of our products and site information there without enetering any personal information. You can also buy any product without being a distributor from our site.
@OZ: Our very own product: We have a proprietary bill payment system that customers can go on to our distributors websites and save money, pay their bill in real time, and distributors can earn commissions. We are connected in real time to the providers and carriers via our web portal.We are also addressing a few of your concerns and were planning on announcing these in Atlanta Sept. 8th. at our conference.
@MLMadvocate: You have my respect, your pragmatic approach is valuable and respectful. Since, joining this forum discussion you have my respect and attention more than any others. Your character shines. I wish all could learn a little from you.You bring much value and a bold and fresh perspective that regardless of anyones thoughts garners respect. I look forward to seeing more of your value added input. BTW: We hired Kevin Thompson Sept. 1.
@ALL: Sept 8th we have many announcements slated. Ironically some address these very specific topics. Our Benefits Network is undergoing vast improvements and changes for the better which will also address and put these comments to rest.Even customers will earn free services that Vitel offers without becoming a distributor. Also, we are launching our very own physical product too. I hope you all will inquire next week.
@Scott
This does not fit the definition of a retailable product your members can sell to genuine retail customers.
It’s a payment processing system, nothing more.
Good to hear.
go to vitel.vitelwireless.com to view our site. I only added this comment, as I guess people do not follow how to see our websites:
If you go to vitelwireless.com you can choose a site name to go to and or choose a random site and see every piece of info to review without entering any information into the site.
If you do not type vitel.vitelwireless.com you are taken to a page that simply asks for the site name you are trying to vist and nothing more. If you do not have a site name to visit you can choose a random site.
I am surprised as this is the first time I have ever heard about this difficulty and as you can see I am very active within our business and do not “hide behind others and or a desk”
If you go to myvitel.com it is a tour site and lead generation site that does require information to go to next video which is common in any company in our industry.
@Scott
Part of the reason you might have appreciated “MLM Advocate”‘s advice over anyone elses is that it offered specific advise to you, as management of Vitel.
This review wasn’t written within the purpose of advising management, it was written from the perspecitve of someone conducting unbiased due diligence on a MLM company. That’s not to say your not welcome to read the review and part of the discussion, but I think you need to appreciate how people looking for information on Vitel are going to come across it.
99.99% of people are going to Google your company name and vitel.vitelwireless.com does not come up. Rather an affiliate website does. Whether ‘wjsarge’ is connected to Vitel management I have no idea but that’s how the search engines currently see your company domain.
If we want to get technical, vitel.vitelwireless is just a corporate account replicated subdomain and is still part of the distributor rotator. I imagine if someone signs up under vitel.vitelwireless.com you guys would randomly assign the signup to another Vitel member?
Functionally there’s a problem if I can’t view crucial information about Vitel (compensation plan, company history etc.) without signing up or having to go through an affiliate’s website.
Time and time again the only time I see this capture method deployed is when recruitment is at the forefront of a business as opposed to retail sales of a product or service.
With Vitel not having a retailable product or service, you do the math.
As an aside, this is primarily also where my criticism of Vitel’s compensation plan presentation stems. I’ll put in the hours to understand and break it down but your average member won’t. They’ll just see ‘Free this if you sign up x people! Free that if you sign up x + more people!’ and go from there.
That might be intentional on the company’s behalf or it might not, regardless there’s room for huge improvement in how Vitel present its compensation plan to the general public.
First, thanks to Scott for taking the time to respond. Not a lot of owners are willing to engage in what some would deem “hostile” territory.
Unlike MLM Advocate, I do have issues with the monthly fees.
Naturally, this is my own personal opinion and preference.
I’ve never been a fan of needing to pay more to a company in hopes of maximizing commissions.
The monthly fees are there just to reward people for “selling the dream” and really serve no purpose other than that.
From my own somewhat significant experience, MLM companies in the wireless and other technology areas are almost completely self-consumption.
Yes, there will be some who actually put forth significant effort to make a significant amount retail sales, but they are always very much the minority.
These industries are extremely competitive and unlike nutritional companies that can at least claim that their juice boxes contain rare oils from a tree that has roots tapped into the River Styx, the vast majority of service offerings are not unique or exclusive.
Most likely your new attorney will advise you to put in some minimal customer requirements to trigger fast start bonuses so that Vitel is less likely to be deemed a pyramid by authorities.
But in reality, comp plans like this do their best to stay barely legal. They try to operate within the letter of the law, but are not really operating in the spirit of the law.
Sadly, because most people are afraid of being a salesperson, the focus will almost always be on recruiting.
People are terrified to try and sell someone a cell phone or satellite service for $100/month, but they seem to have far less issues selling hopes and dreams of a better life for $100/month.
LOL. Well, with that relatively generic MLM rant over, I’ll guess that Vitel will be just as good/bad as the other companies in its niche.
Good luck to you Scott.
Just my .02
Are you and I looking at the same website?
When I go to that domain, I get “click here to access Vitel Site”, and “Already a user? Click here to login”.
So I click to access vitel site, and I get the rotator.
So I pick someone’s replicated website to see, then I get something.
When I tried it 6 hours ago, I got NOTHING. Just a bunch of “how to make money with Vitel”, testimonials, and “click here to join”. You must have some incomplete replicated pages or something…
That’d be this one: member enfoque subsite. When I go to member leon’s subsite I get the one with everything. Just my luck, eh?
I think I get what Mr. Rogers is saying. They *are* just like FHTM: they are a MARKETING organization that forms relations with big vendors and resell their services/products, whatever that may be, but also follow a MLM model that encourages members to go out and use person-to-person contacts to recruit.
The big question is, back to what MLM advocate said, what are you recruiting? affiliates, or customers?
MLM definition is very strict: you can only pay on SALES (i.e. whatever’s sold to customers) and that means NOT to affiliates (unless affiliates are actually using those services, as a self-consumer). Also take into account the Amway safeguard rules.
While you can mix the two (affiliate recruiting vs. customer recruiting) somewhat, this LACK of dividing line in Vitel is very troubling, as MLM Advocate pointed out before.
There should be two separate replicated sites PER member… one for prospective CUSTOMERS, and one for prospective AFFILIATES (downlines). The former you can show off, and click on a “talk to a local rep now” button to connect to a random Vitel Rep in or near his zipcode or something.
The latter, the income opportunity, should be separate from all the “retail offerings”. THAT should be what’s shown on “myvitel”
@K.Chang: Thank you for the added insight and comments.
Our distributors do use the service and have posted proof of using those services across You Tube, not to say that is enough or not enough, just clarifying that our distributors do use the service they pay for.
As I stated earlier we will be announcing this weekend changes that are more customer focused and driven, along with Vitels very own product offering over and above Vitels very own service offering.
WE will have both a product and service offering of our own. Lastly, even customers will be able to earn free services.
regarding to the site, are you going to myvitel.com or vitelwireless.com? The vitelwireless.com has many pages of information. Try this site: kaxiong.vitelwireless.com/
WOW!…I stumbled on this site(not knowing what to expect-as I’m considering partnering with Vitel but still doing some research)…and though not the sharpest on comp plans(I learned a lot)…
I enjoyed the comments by all!…I may fly to Atlanta for the meeting on Sept. 8th…not sure where it is..but will google that..but will visit here often…
I appreciate Scott Rogers(CEO) position and sound’s like he’s looking for ways to improve Vitel’s structure… and a “special thanks” to..Oz,K.Chang & MLM Advocate for your Input…all of you deserve a round of applause!
As I said, the enfoque subsite sent me to a recruitment page with NO details on the wireless services itself. I tried again and the leon subsite got me a full page.
And I still say this “full page” sends a mixed message: service and opportunity, when those are separate markets.
FTC don’t like mixed messages, and when it sees a problem, you won’t have a chance to fix it. Consider what happened to Burnlounge. You *could* say they got off on the wrong foot promoting sales of “moguls” (i.e. affiliateships) but when FTC stepped in they are over and out. You want to learn about such problems EARLY.
That’s not the point. As I said before, Weber vs. Omnitrition says sales to affiliates themselves, i.e. self-consumption, may not count and FTC later said they will evaluate this case by case.
If you recruited a bunch of self-consumers, then you DO NOT have a group of sales people, and THAT in itself may look very bad to the FTC.
Co-Signed!
Thank’s Scott for your commentary, and the strong leadership you display at Vitel. I’ve watched this poor review of Vitel, and initial comments that have now matured. I’m going to chime in since more reasonable and respectful commentary has been made by others than the owner of the site.
In short, the assertion is that Vitel’s distributor/customer use MAY be indications of illegal pyramid business opportunity with Vitel.
Per my read of the following points, taken from MLMLegal.com, the question of personal use and its relation to a legitimate home business is not cut and dry. In fact it appears that the improper distributor/customer use comes into play when you have high price services that are not readily identifiable in the general consumer market place as stand-alone products/services.
This is simply NOT the case with Vitel’s Benefits Network. Note, in item #8 below, that the FTC does and has overreached in it’s cases when discussing distributor as customer for personal use.
Therefore, in light of the reasonable priced benefits package of Vitel along with the other products and services that reps actively market and earn commissions from it does not stand to reason that claims of a potential period exist because of a distributor/customer relation to the Vitel Benefits network as is (notwithstanding enhancements coming to for customers for our OWN productS, including the Vitel Benefits Network).
FTC v. BurnLounge: 10 point mini-primer and action plan on the “personal use” issue:
Overreach of BurnLounge Final Order creates uncertainty on “personal use” issue…
1) FTC stated policy has been to prosecute egregious pyramid schemes as opposed to mainstream direct selling. By and large, this has been the case since the famous 1979 FTC Amway unsuccessful prosecution.
2) FTC and major court pyramid decisions, including FTC v. BurnLounge, focus on front-loading, large investments, products and services that do not stand on their own in the marketplace, payment of recruitment commissions for purchases of nonconsumer items such as sales tools, unsubstantiated earnings claims and programs where the motivation for distributor product purchases is driven by intent to “buy in” and qualify for commissions in the business opportunity … and is incidental to a real desire for product or service for resale or personal use.
3) The existence of distributor purchases of consumer products and services, in reasonable amounts, for “personal use” is common in the direct selling industry and does not appear to be a driving “pyramid” criticism of the FTC or court decisions.
4) Notwithstanding the absence of “personal use” criticism, a disconnect exists”; it is common place, in FTC and pyramid cases, to issue orders that provide that distributor “personal use” purchases should not be recognized as “sales to ultimate users” for purpose of determining if a program is a pyramid or legitimate.
5)0verreaching on the “personal use” issue creates a cloud of legal uncertainty for the direct selling industry and the livelihoods of millions of distributors.
6)The BurnLounge Final Order continues this “disconnect” and perpetuates an unnecessary cloud of legal uncertainty on the role of “personal use” in pyramid analysis.
7) The BurnLounge Final Order is sure to be cited in future FTC actions, state, federal and international regulatory actions, class actions and private lawsuits, proposed state, federal and international laws, regulations and rules.
8)Prior uncertainty from previous FTC actions and other cases have prompted multiple states to recognize legitimacy of personal use, creating confusion between states and between federal and state on this issue. As early as 1986, the state of California recognized “reasonable personal use” in a stipulated order involving Herbalife.
And even the FTC, in 2004, clarified, in a FTC Staff Advisory Opinion, that it did not necessarily object to personal use, and noted that it tended to overreach in court cases in order to achieve stronger flexibility in prosecutions of egregious pyramid schemes.
9)In 2003, the industry introduced proposed federal clarification legislation, HR 1220 to recognize personal use and remove the disconnect and uncertainty; the industry, specifically the DSA, should again initiate such proposed federal legislation.
10) In the alternative, the FTC and DSA, with permission of the BurnLounge defendants, should seek to amend the BurnLounge Final Order to recognize that “sales to the ultimate consumer” include distributor purchases in reasonable amounts for personal use.
Continued success to Vitel, a company positioned to be the next bigger and badder A.C.N.!
@Jah
It is when you have no retail customers and a 100/0% affiliate/custmer ratio. No customers or products other than membership and the paying out commissions from membership fees and upon acquisition of new members is pretty much the textbook definition of a pyramid scheme.
Regardless of your assertions, unless I can purchase the Benefits network without buying into the income opportunity, technically the Benefits Network is just being bundled with Vitel membership (which is what’s actually being paid for). Thus it does not constitute an actual retailable Vitel product.
Burnlounge has been conclusively proven to be a pyramid scheme when only 10% of its revenue was derived from selling of music when it’s supposed to be a new type of music sales portal.
That means 90% of revenue comes from selling of “mogul” positions themselves. Personal use / self-consumption is NOT an issue in Burnlounge.
The real issue is… is Vitel a bunch of self-consumers recruiting self-consumers, or a bunch of SALESPEOPLE out looking for CUSTOMERS?
The former is a pyramid scheme, the later is a sales force.
Clearly Vitel WANTS to be the latter, but is it really, or is it more like the former PRETENDING to be the latter? And can you prove it?
Mr. Rogers isn’t the first owner to have appeared on BehindMLM defending his business. However, he’s the first that appears genuinely willing to accept some criticism. That is indeed refreshing.
Too often a suspect scheme’s leader popped up here and the dialog often go like this:
A: I don’t like what you say about my company!
O: So what did we get wrong?
A: Uh… everything!
O: They all came from your website.
A: Uh… you have no idea what you’re talking about!
O: (cites laws and analysis)
(crickets)
Yep, A never came back.
@Kchang & Oz, thank you. I certainly can handle respectful criticism. I have quickly realized that you can never make everyone happy or see things the way you see them. Jah and you both have great points.
The great news is that your latest concern will be put to bed this Saturday in Atlanta. I truly care and want our company to be positioned well and set for long term and not solely based on recruitment.
I know we will never silence all the critics though. We don’t claim to be perfect l or know it all, what we do claim is that we walk the walk. Pardon any grammatical errors, on my phone posting 🙂
Don’t worry about the critics. Worry about complying with the law! Who’s your internal compliance MLM lawyer? There’s only a handful of those.
We just recently hired Kevin Thompson.
@kchang, we will never satisfy all the critics. Compliance is important to us regardless. Talk soon!
As in all criticism, you’ll need to evaluate them and filter out any bias, and decide whether their criticism is valid and can you do anything about it.
The point is not to satisfy the critics, but to see if they have something worthwhile to offer, such as a viewpoint you did not adopt before.
People who value improvement enjoy criticism if it is offered fairly.
People who do NOT value improvement hate criticism, because it implies that their (whatever) is not perfect.
I want one of those! 🙂
Mr. Rodgers,
I’m thrilled to hear you’ve retained Mr. Thompson. I’m sure he’ll confirm what I noted above (in regard to you needing to separate your rep fee and benefits package). If you don’t separate them you will indeed be at risk of being labeled a pyramid.
The only other solution would be to require a sale of a retail product (with the rep purchasing it themselves or selling to an outside customer). The key factor will be the product not being associated with a rep position.
Many companies (which are now shut down) tried to claim that their product that all members had to purchase was a “retail” product yet that same purchase made you eligible to participate in the compensation plan.
By definition that is a pyramid. I’m sure Mr. Thompson will confirm this for you. If the only people that can purchase that product are reps then that is not a retail product. It therefore cannot qualify as a retail purchase.
Don’t let some of your “leaders” advise you against this. Trust me, the leaders of a MLM might not be the best advisors at times. They are blinded with the ease of qualification and quick money from your $99 per month product.
Yes, requiring a retail sale may slow things down a bit. Yes, you might have to split your $99 benefits package and therefore lower commissions on it and remove some of the benefits like the free things you promise. But in the end you will have a MUCH more legal and sustainable model.
The last thing the great profession of MLM needs is more companies trying to take the path of least resistance and skirting the law. Good luck!
The only problem with the commentary made regarding Vitel is that there was an attempt to disconnect the Partnership products and compensation in relation to that that can and will in time exceed the membership side, notwithstanding enhancements to our benefits package coming out in a couple days.
Since no one seems to understand the 5 levels of “additional” compensation of Vitel the conversation has been one side.
Even the FTC understand that first a company must be able to establish is field force before expecting more product movement. That’s exactly where Vitel was when I came on 7 months ago. We have since changed that and now we are moving from just new rep sign up to more product movement.
Now with the addition of one of the top MLM attorneys we know that we will continued to be on point and grow to be a very powerful company with our Walmart approach to home services for the people.
What it “can” and “will” do is irrelevant. All that matters is the here and now and when you’re not offering a single retail product despite coming up on your third year anniversary of being in business, we have a problem.
Irrelevant. You can’t run a pyramid scheme on the proviso you’ll go legit one day.
You’re going to have to back that one up with documentation son or I’m calling absolute horseshit on that.
Yet when I wrote the review, nothing had changed.
Look, at the end of the day you can’t just run a pyramid scheme and hope to one day recruit enough affiliates to go legit. Otherwise every scammer in the world would pull this defense when caught.
“Oh but we were just on the verge of doing away with the recruitment commissions paid out of membership fees, honest!”
Give me strength…
We never talked about affiliate-customer ratio, and FTC gives MLM companies a little slack for the first year or so to make sure they gather up some sales (even self-consumption, if it’s genuine in ‘reasonable amounts’)
Vitel has some advantage in this arena in that phone and Sat-TV service can’t be stacked, i.e. a home only needs so many phones and SAT-TV services, you can’t even inflate your own numbers if you WANT to.
Rather difficult to cheat the system, unlike those Uber-Juice and Uber-Pill companies, when you can fudge it some by buying them yourself.
But the point still stands: is Vitel gathering up a bunch of self-consumers recruiting more self-consumers, or is it gathering up a bunch of actual SALESPEOPLE selling services to outside customers?
If it’s the former, is it making a transition into the latter, and how is the company planning, encouraging, and executing such a change? Something a bit more solid than Jah’s “forward looking statement” would be nice. 🙂
The only thing that has been horeshit is your commentary, buddy. You have shown that you are complete void of full comprehension of Vitel and seemingly still lacking in understanding how a real and viable company such as Vitel can and does operate to become a powerhouse in the industry.
Read more on MLMLegal.com on my remark related to FTC. Unless something really is offpoint with a company, 3 years is a known time to allow a growing legitimate company such as Vitel to have adequate customer acquisition.
In other words, giving that Vitel follows the path of proven companies in the same niche, it’s only stupid to judge a baby as an adult. You’ve ATTEMPTED to do this, and you look silly.
So since, Vitel is not, nor do you have any credible arguments to support you review of such pyramid claims, that clearly mentioned that our partnership product side of business was fine, then you continued rants are useless and only serve to cause confusion to others where none is warranted.
Now if we only had the membership and no other viable customer products or compensation with our partnership products to rival the membership then, and only then, could you have a point.
However, you Vitel would be a pyramid claims is not supported by law and past ruling as I noted for such a viable product that is adequately priced to other in the consumer market place.
Save your frustration rants for another company that should be exposed for being bad. You’ve got your publicity to your site, now stop carrying on un-intelligently even your other common poster see the silliness in your continued false claims.
Saying something idiotic such as it matters not where a company is going but what something is now is contrary to all the growth and development of all MLM’s that have become great company’s.
We’ve got Kevin Thompson, case closed, and continue to watch Vitel rise to great heights!
I don’t know, Jah. If all else fails, maybe you can “defend” Vitel by telling the folks it’s like working for the U.S. Census Bureau.
You know, like you did for the Narc That Car pyramid scheme.
Or perhaps you can do some check-waving.
You know, like you did for the Narc That Car pyramid scheme.
Or perhaps you can continue to spread the misinformation about how MLM’s are entitled to gain a head of steam before they have to concern themselves with compliance.
If all else fails — and if Vitel gets a negative with the BBB — perhaps you can then attack the BBB.
You know, like you did with the Dallas-based Narc That Car pyramid scheme that somehow ended up using one of the same banks in North Carolina used by Zeek.
PPBlog
P.S. Troy Dooly appears to be of the mind that the best defense for a negative BBB rating is to attack the BBB. He planted that seed while “covering” Zeek.
@Chang our actions are inherent in our growth. As I just noted attempts to judge a baby as an adult seems un-intelligent.
Bottomline to what you have stated. We are not just a bunch of reps gathering reps we are into customer acquisition all around and we’ve continued to add more and more products that will lead our members to have more and more partnership product compensation.
There are many well know and thriving physical product juice and vitamin companies that have grown from just reps to reps and a nice customer base. However, they must get reps first, and then more and more customer come. We are doing nothing different.
There is nothing whatsoever that would require us to offer the Vitel Benefits to customers as long as our partnership products are adequately being absorbed and used by customers to create nice income for members, notwithstanding announcements this weekend.
Chang your comments have been fair and well stated. Based on what you have said I’m confident that Vitel will continued to prove our membership and customer acquisition will provide great long term compensation for those that join and work the business the same as ACN, & 5Links whom I see as more of our competitors.
PPBlog, if you are wanting to point out I was wrong on Narc That Car, then cool. I accept that, but it was because they were withholding information from event the top leaders I was talking with.
I deal directly with Scott Rogers in light of the position I’ve been blessed to be in with the company.
It took me over 3 years to find the right company that would be a winner for my mlm aspiration. I don’t have any problem with failures along that way, I’m glad to say I didn’t quit.
NarcThatCar is history, Vitel is the future. I’m not focused on looking back since I’m not going that way.
All the best in your endeavors.
@Jah
Zeek Rewards was just over a year and a half old and also pushed the ‘we’re going to get retail customers soon… honest” AND they actually had a retail offering.
You might want to ask Paul Burks how that worked out for him.
Vitel is going on 3 years with no retail product offering and by definition, not a single genuine retail customer. You cannot have retail customers if you have no retail product offering, period.
Again, what you’re going to do is irrelevant. Launching with a blatant pyramid scheme business model with no retail products and paying out recruitment commissions with those commissions being paid out of membership fees is not in any way justified by future plans.
Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry running a scam would simply rock up to court, go on about their “future plans” and be let off scott free.
I don’t care what MLMLegal said, you brought up the FTC so you show me where the FTC said you can run a pyramid scheme for a couple of years so long as you have “future plans”.
Vitel has no retail products!
Game over!
You don’t! Vitel themselves on sell membership, all other products and services are mere offfered access to third-party vendors.
Yeah.. because no company has ever been charged for being a pyramid scheme because all they were selling as a company was membership, and they just happened to be paying out recruitment fees off said membership.
Nah, never happened.
Lawyers don’t define a company, their business model does.
So far I’ve pegged Vitel as a FHTM junior, and looked how FHTM turned out. 😀
Your growth of what? Affiliates? Are they ‘self-consumer’ affiliates or ‘salespeople’ affiliates? Nothing’s inherent in your statement. You’re speaking like a PR spin guy. Go back to plain speak, man.
You’re missing the point. The *point* is you can’t say “we’re in rep acquisition phase so we’ll look like a pyramid scheme for a while, but we’ll ‘grow out of it’.” You can’t be a pyramid scheme… EVER.
And there we go AGAIN. Are you recruiting self-consumers, or salespeople?
Clearly you mean to say “Vitel Benefits” are for Vitel salespeople, but then only logical reason you mention “offer vitel benefits to customers” would be that you cannot separate the customers from the affiliates.
THAT is a huge red flag to the FTC: no separation between customer and affiliate.
I’ll refer you to article by Spencer Reese, one of Mr. Babener’s “frenemies” in MLM law. (I added the bold formating)
http://www.mlmlaw.com/saleswatch/omnitrition.html
We will treat a company as a company. We don’t use the definition “baby company”. And I really don’t care if you think THAT is “un-intelligent” or what.
But since you brought up the definition “baby company” for Vitel, please elaborate on what’s the difference between companies and “baby companies”?
(For the legal eagles out there, the following is an editorial, and reflects my own opinions and observations)
Jah!! Damn glad to see you’re still around. See – Patrick isn’t the only one with a long memory. There’s a few of us around that will be more than happy to help you remember just where it is you came from, and show your current followers just what a man of character that you are.
I literally laughed out loud when I saw you quote MLMLegal up above. This from a man fined $1000.00 for practicing law without a license. Well, I guess it’s reassuring to know you’ve learned finally to turn to others that do know what they’re talking about; that’s a step in the right direction.
Have you finally gotten yourself a place to live, and aren’t stuck in that run-down UPS store you’d been using as your address there in Gahanna, OH? Oh, yeah, you ever trade up from that clapped out Honda you were running the gas pills in, or did the pills do it in?
Now, since you used the term, I’ll borrow from you. You can claim the owner of Narc That Car withheld information until the cows come home, but I’m calling bullshit. You were told point blank by several of us, your, and the activities of NTC were potentially putting lives at risk, but you would rather have cranked out YouTube videos of your damned paycheck that consider anyone else’s safety.
That database was totally unregulated in any way, and all it would have taken is for one angry person to buy the info on a former wife, husband, etc., and there would have been the headline.
Like it or not, Bubba, but the blood would have been on your hands. I suppose you could have just worn gloves when you did your next “I got paid” video, though, to cover that up.
Sorry, Jah, but you’re just a 2-bit sociopath, incapable of thinking of anything or anyone but Jah. And, like most sociopaths, you do put on a great act of appearing to be human. On your branding page, you make it appear that you’re really interested in the lives of those you “mentor”, but the cold hard reality is, at the end of the day, they’re nothing more than a downline to you, and you’ll use them to try and get what you want.
I did notice that NTC was conspicuously absent from your glowing bio; you may want your flock to know the particulars, don’t you think? Yeah, I thought not.
You know Jah, caterpillars do morph into butterflies in time. But, pieces of shit, well, even 3 years later, are still just pieces of shit…
@K. ChangJah’s posting here is just an attempt to ride the coattails of the site to improve his own rankings in the search engines. If you click the “Ignore” button, he’ll quickly move on the next site where he can attempt to impress them with his internet marketing skills.
Jerry
Jahs’ and, by extension, Vitels’ problem, is that Jah is a serial HYIP ponzi promoter.
The Zeek experience has shown “ponzis” and how they operate are outside the understanding of the average ‘net user and High Yield Investment Programs (HYIP)are totally unheard of.
Jah, on the other hand, knows EXACTLY how the underground world of HYIP ponzis works and, in fact, makes a large part of his living capitalizing on others’ ignorance, as do his sycophant “downlines” who follow him from fraudulent scheme to fraudulent scheme.
If readers’ intention is to become involved in the shady world of get-rich-quick schemes and online fraud, by all means follow Jah.
If, on the other hand, their intention is to make money while remaining ethically and morally sound,
RUN LIKE THE WIND all the while holding on tight to your wallet.
@LuvinLife Wow that’s a major bombshell!
Rebuttal please Jah maybe you could solicit Troy to help you with that 🙂
Wow thanks for the heads up LuvNLife and PPBlog on jah…. Too funny I’m constantly surprised at the depths people will go, in the name of a buck.
@ K.Chang could you give a break down on jah’s excuses …. That’s my fav part..How come all the defenders of a company with a unfavorable review all sound alike, I swear jah sounds just like a zeekhead, (cut,copy,& paste from ZR comments).
Another thing I find astounding is there comments; it’s like they haven’t even read through other posts, like the ZR comment section to better prepare themselves.
Scotts comments sound evasive, while jah’s are downright caned ham.
Yep, I checked MlmLegal.com, and I didn’t find what you’re talking about, the “3 year rule” and “baby company rules”.
@Scott RogersPerhaps someone else in Vitel can provide us with the correct information here?
The claim about special rules for startup companies was probably a marketing claim, since it was used in a context where it “defended” the main product or service offered by Vitel — the business opportunity itself. And it was made by one of Vitel’s “sales force”, a self proclaimed “Vitel Top Leader”.
“Self proclaimed” was only a guess from my side, based on the other information connected to that claim, to the lack of factual content.
When sales people makes specific marketing claims about something, I’ll expect them to be able to provide me with some documentation to support their own claims. And I expect them to find and provide the documentation themselves. Jah Kafele didn’t meet those expectations.
Pretty standard stuff… mainly derail and red herring (i.e. ‘answered the wrong question’, and “look at our future, not our past”.
It’s unfortunate that Data Network Affiliates / Narc That Car managed to have their whole thread pulled from Scam.com.
Otherwise, it would have been easy to match Mr Jahs’ comments with those he made regarding Narc.
Readers couldn’t then help but realize what Jah is doing is mouthing the same, straight out of the HYIP Ponzi Players 101 Handbook, cookie cutter responses in his defense of Vitel as he did for Narc That Car.(and every other pseudo M.L.M. “opportunity” with which his name has been associated)
In fact, if anyone is looking for a reason to stay away from an “opportunity” the fact Jah is associated with it is reason enough.
Let’s get back to discussion about Vitel and leave the Jah issue to rest.
To be fair, Jah did leave a reply but it was little more than “you’re all just jealous of me, Vitel is awesome!” so it was sent to the spam bin.
I think we can leave the discussion about Jah at that as his personal marketing efforts only detract from Vitel.
Scott Rogers did a OK job, if his main focus was the market out there rather than the discussion here.
“The market out there” means the average people, evaluating whether they should join something or not. If he focused on THEM rather than US, the strategy was good enough.
The strategy can be called “Stick to your OWN points rather than your opponent’s, and keep it there (close to your OWN points) as best as you can”.
The average audience (potential reps/customers) will check whether or not something makes sense to them, the main ideas rather than the details. Arguments about MLM in general and other companies can make more sense for that audience than technical details.
He did an OK job if his focus was THAT part of the audience. That audience can have other values and priorities than other parts of the audience, e.g. willingness to defend an idea can have a higher value than HOW you do it (as long as you’re able to keep the arguments within the audiences’ own set of ideas).
He didn’t “win” the discussion, but he might have won a part of the audience.
“Vitel Top Leader”
Jah Kafele on the other hand seemed to be more focused on himself than on an audience, on his own belief system or something rather than on the audience in front of him (the readers in general, including potential reps/customers and other Vitel representatives).
Special rules for “baby companies” is probably something he WANT to be true, but doesn’t have any support in reality (and most people will probably KNOW that).
AFAIK, there isn’t any “general understanding” among average people about something like that — special rules for “baby companies”. Ideas like that belongs in a cult (or in a sick mind) rather than in a normal audience.
Most of his arguments were too vague, and derived straight from his own belief system rather than from reality. He didn’t “win” the discussion, and he probaably lost most of the audience, too.
Willingness to defend an idea will NOT always work. HOW you do it can be important, too. The focus on general MLM ideas like Scott Rogers did was a better strategy than Jah Kafele’s focus on his own weird belief system.
Yeah, you’re right. He’s not worth that much attention.
To be fair, bundling third party products together and selling them CAN be a service.
A product or a service is SOMETHING of value that people are willing to pay for. It doesn’t have to be your OWN products or services you’re selling to qualify as a service.
As an example, a normal auction sell other people’s goods, and the service they offer is the system that attracts sellers and buyers, and all the efforts related to that system. And they’re charging a fee for that service.
It hasn’t been a main point in any discussion, “third party or own products/services”, but it has been mentioned.
An income opportunity is neither a product nor a service (in itself), so in general it shouldn’t be tradeable either. Normally it should be separated from products or services, and not be bundled together with them.
If you’re going to sell it in MLM then it has to be independent of membership. This usually doesn’t happen because there’s nothing stopping the customer from just going to the source and getting a cheaper deal.
As such companies tend to bundle things with membership, such as access – at which point they cease being retailable products or services, which is key.
@Oz
“Third parties” was a point in one of the comments, but not a main point. So I just decided to be fair, even if it wasn’t an important point.
Your own blog has third party services in the comments, and it doesn’t really matter whether people read third party comments or an article.
I visited a blog for a few months in 2009 or 2010, where the contents of the articles were of no interest to me (selfdev, “the Secret”, “Law of Attraction”, etc.), but some of the comments were of interest.
The same principle applies to Troy Dooly’s blog, I’m usually not very interested in his “Unique bid Auction Niche” theories, but I can often be interested in the comments from third parties. 🙂
So a product or a service is SOMETHING people are interested in, whether it is from third parties or from own production.
@M_Norway
Not sure what your point is, seeing as none of the examples you cited can be sold on a retail level via MLM.
Stretching it a bit to prove a point?
As far as I’m concerned third-party services and products being offered by a company, who don’t have a product themselves, charge for membership and pay out recruitment commissions aren’t relevant products to considerwhen analysing the compensation plan.
With the exception being if the MLM company makes the third-party products available to retail customers, which doesn’t happen because then customers would just go to the source company.
Oz, FHTM and Lightyear Wireless, and even Solavei (and to a different extent, ACN) do offer “third-party” services to consumers, so to speak. LightYear mainly resell Verizon Wireless, and Solavei is a MVNO (i.e. reseller) of T-Mobile. FHTM resells everybody, from magazines to DISH sat tv to new vinyl/thermo windows and whatnot.
In some cases, going to the source is NOT cheaper, and going with a local rep may result in OTHER benefits.
The problem with Vitel, IMHO, is not that they are charging membership, but are they building a sales force or a group of self-consumers.
If third-party services can be done cheaper and is offered at a retail level then go for it.
This is not the case with Vitel, who themselves sell only membership and have nothing available retail.
While I consider the monthly fees as nothing more than a way for Vitel to make itself attractive to recruiters who love to make money off of their mailing lists of biz opp seekers, the services they sell via 3rd parties are legit.
You can buy the services from their website without joining the opportunity, so that part of things is above board IMO.
But, like most of the telecom MLM’s the monthly fees make it a recruiting game.
As mentioned in my earlier comment, there will be a small percentage that actually put the time and effort into making retail sales.
However, most people will join just to recruit others and sell the “dream” of making money from home and almost all of their income will come from the monthly membership fees and not from selling actual products and services. Just like most other MLMs in this niche.
@Chris
What are you talking about?
If I visit the Vitel website, I can either login if I’m a member or browse another member’s website.
If I visit another member’s website all I can do is signup, ie. become a member of Vitel. You can’t buy anything without joining.
@Oz and everyone. You can buy any product we offer without joining. I apologize for this, but I have explained multiple times how to go the website.
Vitelwireless.com click the left side button, then click here if you don’t have site name,an not be clearer
@ Scott
Do you have a site that is strictly retail that your members can promote?
The vitelwireless.com site is clearly geared more towards opportunity seekers than consumers.
Okay, looks like myvitel.com is what your reps should be promoting to opportunity seekers, so I’m guessing that vitelwireless.com is supposed to be your retail storefront.
But the first link in the top menu takes people to the myvitel opportunity page. And the last link on the top menu takes people to the myvitel opportunity page.
If vitelwireless.com is supposed to be the retail front, it isn’t really designed for that job as the majority of items on the front page are pushing the opportunity instead of the products/services.
@ Oz
Did you get through it yet.
The majority of people that land on Vitel’s site are going to come through some reps link.
So if you are on vitel.vitelwireless.com/ for instance, you should be able to go through the products menu at the top or just click on products and it takes you to the products page.
At that point, you should/would be able to order as a regular consumer.
As I mentioned, if this is supposed to be Vitel’s retail front, it does not focus on what it should.
I went to vitelwireless.com, clicked on the left side and then let the site transfer me a member’s site. Once there, I clicked on products. I was able to add a cell phone to the shopping cart and, though I didn’t complete the purchase, went far enough that it appeared to a basic shopping cart.
Oz, are you not considering getting a cell phone/service an actual product since it is a third party sale?
The being redirected from a corporate site to a member site is nothing new.
Hey, I said that! 😀
The problem here seem to be that there seem to be separate different types of landing pages for Vitel. Some members seem to have a “recruit only” landing page, while others got the full “retail and recruit” landing page.
Maybe Oz and I just had our luck and landed on the recruit only pages.
Here’s the difference:
enfoque.vitelwireless.com — full service page
enfoque.myvitel.com — recruit only page
Not all myvitel landing pages are recruit-only, but the way Vitel works is if you just type in vitelwireless.com, you get forwarded to Myvitel.com, which gives the impression that vitelwireless.com is just a dumb landing page with no info.
That’s just bad flow design.
LOL, looks like somebody had a bad day at fantasy football.
Quite a few unprofessional reactions in your comments, but we’re all human and I know Vitel is your “baby”.
Will have to reread your rant and ask some questions.
Thanks again for contributing your POV.
@Scott
Ah the “payment center”. Was that a new addition after the conference? Why is there no advertising on it from the main page? It’s all “join, join, join” with no mention of retail at all.
At some point during the week I’ll update my review regarding retailable products. I still think however there’s a problem money flow wise in that it goes customer –> vendor –> vitel –> affiliates. The only money Vitel directly takes in (and pays its own commissions out of) is membership fees correct?
@ZoeIt’s a sale, but not a Vitel sale in that the vendor takes the money and pays Vitel a commission who then share the commission with their affiliate.
Technically speaking Vitel as a company are an affiliate member of the vendor and that’s where the actual sale takes place. I don’t have a problem classifying that as a sale but the fact remains that it’s external to Vitel itself.
Unless something has changed, product wise the only thing Vitel themselves are still offering is membership and that’s the only money they take in directly.
There’s nothing wrong with affiliate marketing but when you introduce an MLM compensation plan into the equation you do have to have a product yourself. Reselling other people product’s is fine but is not a substitute for having your own product (even if it’s just one).
Membership alone does of course not count as a viable MLM product.
@OZ, perfect question: No, the payment center has been in existence since beginning of 2012.
Thank you for the acknowledgement.
Regarding: money flow, the only money we receive directly at this time is from the payment center as it does not flow directly to each carrier, but to us. The carriers then in return invoice us per say.
As mentioned also, taking the Benefits Network to customers will also eliminate your money flow issue too! Lastly, our MIFI WIFI will be the same, our product. We will receive payment, activate, and control the devices from our end.
@OZ great comments and questions, Thank you.
@Scott
I must have got one of those non-retail pages Kasey was talking about when writing the review. All Vitel members should have a “payment centre” page on their replicated vitelwireless right?
If this is the case, then whatever is causing the problem with which site is shown needs to be rectified or it undermines the whole retail offering efforts.
Who are Vitel membership fees paid to then?
Specifically invoice who? The customer, Vitel or the Vitel affiliate?
If the benefits network is just access to third-party vendor offers, products and services, then all you’ll be doing is creating a membership scheme within a membership scheme. Membership alone to anything does not count as a retail product in MLM.
This wifi service however sounds like a tangible retail product though. If it’s offered under the Vitel brand and you didn’t have to join Vitel as an affiliate to purchase it, then that would count as a retail product within Vitel itself.
PS. I just made it to your rant and nuked it as spam. Stay on topic or don’t bother, this isn’t the place for your dummy spits.The tone of the discussion here might very well be outside that of your comfort zone but overall I think it’s been productive for the purposes of analysis of the Vitel opportunity both now and going into the future.
You’re not always going to be dealing with corporate yes men, lawyers and consultants you pay – welcome to the otherside.
If I read Mr. Rogers correctly, Vitel is also acting as payment processor. People who enroll in, say, Verizon Wireless through Vitel pays Vitel every month through the Vitel payment center, and Vitel then pays Verizon.
I guess Vitel pays Verizon their negotiated rate instead of the “retail” rate it charges the customers and absorbs the difference as profit, and pays out commission from that.
Mr. Rogers? Corrections?
I don’t think being a payment processor however constitutes an actual MLM product.
Imagine if the e-wallets started charging for membership and attached MLM compensation plans paying out recruitment commissions, they’d be in a world of trouble!
I think he was answering your question about money flow, not specifically as a “product”, but I’ll let him answer that. 🙂
Yeah that’s why I asked who the vendors are invoicing. If it’s Vitel then they are technically operating as an affiliate themselves. Nothing wrong with that unless you don’t have a product yourself and charge membership fees whilst paying out recruitment commissions.
If the customer is invoiced them Vitel are taking on a payment processor role, which as above isn’t a MLM product.
Technically, they *are* selling service, and the profit they earn pays the commissions. I think the question YOU, Oz, want to know is, why are they MLM instead of uni-level commission basis. 🙂
@OZ, I see posts after my last postings, did you edit or decide not to publish my last comments or are tehy just awaiting approval?
As I understand it that is not correct.
From what I see ViTel charges $3.99 for each “bill to be paid.” You basically go their website which has a form you fill out. If you want to pay your Verizon bill you simply give ViTel your Verizon account information (account number, name on the account, cellphone number, etc) then they go and pay your bill for you.
ViTel doesn’t have any direct contract for payment with Verizon or any of the carriers. Where they make their money is on the $3.99 fee charged for ViTel to pay your bill for you.
@Scott
Your rant was spamcanned as per:
Nothing else was removed.
Aha, thanks for the clarification. So what does Vitel offer that’s “better” than plain Verizon service to be worth the $3.99 a month?
Recruitment commissions if you pay a monthly membership fee?
I am not sure why I am still explaining things when I do and they do not get posted? But, here goes:
Once again, The pre-paid bill pay portal has no fee as explained prior, but not all of that is posted even though I posted it. (Ozedit: removed offtopic spam).
There is no fee to pay pre-paid payments/ bills there is a benefit to the customer, since they pay a fee at any cell phone store and many online places too.
Even some of the post-paid carriers now charge a fee. If you complete the research prior to assuming you will see here: vitel.vitelwireless.com/pre-paid-cell-phones.html
(Ozedit: removed offtopic spam)
Which goes back to the question: is Vitel recruiting a bunch of self-consumers, which would be on the ragged edge between MLM and pyramid scheme, or a bunch of salespeople?
Usually, the fee’s waived if you do automatic debit from your debit card or checking account or credit card. There’s a fee if you pay in-store, like MetroPCS.
@K Chang: hmmmm, I do not follow. The site for accepting bill payments is for external customers and distributors. Anyone can pay their cell phone on the site and save money and distributor earns $.
Same thing with all the products. There is no fee, Real time, directly applied to the carrier. How is 150,000 customers self consumers??? (Ozedit: removed offtopic spam)
People come to the site to pay a bill and save in real time vs. going to the store and waiting and or paying a fee.
(Ozedit: removed offtopic spam)
Scott you’re welcome to participate in the discussion about Vitel however your pissy little rants and snide comments about BehindMLM are offtopic and will be marked as spam. Please stop trying to republish the same offending comments.
If you wish to include the information you’ve previously published amongst your rants you’re free to do so, minus the offtopic ranting.
If you’re not directly charging them anything, they’re customers of the vendor are they not?
I don’t think it’s fair to claim Vitel has 150,000 customers if all they’re doing us using you as a payment processor. They’re not actually buying anything from Vitel itself, which was one of my big red flags to begin with.
You can’t have customers, as defined within a MLM business model, if you yourself aren’t selling them anything. Money passing through you between a customer and vendor would be no different to an idependent MLM distributor claiming they have personally branded products because customers pay them and receive product from an MLM company.
@OZ (Ozedit: removed offtopic spam)
We are not a payment processor, our software delviers a service that others do not or can’t. the are buying a pin from us, we are not processing the payment for said carrier.
We are being paid for the service we provide and then paying the carrier for the cost of the product/ service.
(Ozedit: removed offtopic spam)
If your software does nothing more than process payments to vendors, that would make you a payment processor?
If customers were buying a pin from you, why would you pass on the money to the vendor who in turn pay Vitel a commission which is then split between Vitel and affiliates?
The service being payment processing and the payment you mention above not coming from Vitel, but from the vendor’s customers who are paying through Vitel right? Who do the vendors invoice, customers or Vitel?
Mechanically the products and services (call them a pin or whatever you want) come from the vendor and all that Vitel appears to do is process money between a customer and the vendor, receive a commission from the vendor and then split it with its affiliates.
Unless I’m missing something, that’s not selling your own products. In and of itself as a single-level affiliate program it’s fine, but not when you combine a MLM compensation plan, charge membership fees and pay out recruitment commissions.
Once again: do research before assuming please: We take payment directly for the service we provide which no one else does.
We are paid no differently than Lightyear for example, they receive payment for a wireless service they provide and the carrier that they utilize charges them the difference between the two.
LY makes the difference, for example they charge $50, for a service, and the carrier they utilize charges them $45 for that service and they earn the difference and then pay commissions. Great business model if you ask me, only difference is we run many carriers vs. one!
(Ozedit: offtopic spam removed)
You also still are not acknowledging my other comments that are directly related to your comments and on topic regarding charging membership fees and recruitment commissions?
Every other blog or website, contacts, researches, discusses, and will communicate with corporate but yours why?
Another example as we buy the pins upfront and then sell them we could even sell them for less thane we pay for them and still profit if that makes sense.
(Ozedit: offtopic spam removed)
Having not reviewed Lightyear yet, I don’t particularly care what they do or don’t do. And even if I had reviewed them, we’re discussing Vitel here so what Lightyear do or don’t do is irrelevant.
Define “service”?
Either it’s the payment processing side of things, which would make Vitel a payment processor or it’s an actual product service.
As far as I can tell Vitel only offer products through vendors, meaning they don’t offer any products themselves and are operating as nothing more than a payment processor between customers and vendors.
Vitel charge membership fees and pay out recruitment commissions. What is not factual about this statement?
Why then don’t vendors pay you commissions upon purchase of pins from said vendors? Why do they only commissions to Vitel when Vitel passes customer money to them?
Also I’ve asked this three times now, do vendors invoice Vitel or customers? In stating Vitel pay vendors upfront for pins you’ve suggested vendors are billing Vitel. However this doesn’t make sense with previous discussions over Vitel handing money over to vendors and then vendors paying Vitel commissions upon sale of one of their products.
My last response to your attempts to drag the discussion offtopic:By and large people (including myself) are sick and tired of the backhanded marketing spin bullshit that goes on in the MLM industry behind closed doors.
This blog offers a different approach, in that it’s not geared towards your best interests as corporate but rather the dissemination and analysis of information that is publicly available to anyone looking into the Vitel opportunity.
I understand if this frustrates you as it forces you to surrender control of information and offers you no avenue to personally sculpt what people are discussing on Vitel, but it’s an approach I adopted three years ago when I started BehindMLM and has, I believe, allowed for the most unbiased and factual discussion of MLM and the companies that inhabit the sector.
What we have right here is an open dialogue between Vitel corporate and myself and the readers of BehindMLM. The only difference being it’s not private and held in the shadows, as is typical of corporate communications in the MLM world.
This is the last time I’m going to warn you over your attempts to change the focus of the discussion from Vitel to BehindMLM itself (and that includes pushing for further correspondence on the ‘why won’t you call us privately’ line of discussion).
Intertwining attempts to derail the discussion with legitimate points in such a way that I can’t seperate the two will only result in the entire comment being marked as spam.
Stay on topic and realise that attempting to play the corporate martyr will get you nowhere here.
Taking a step back from the usual froth and bubble spin doctoring and getting back to core issues, several things about the Vitel “opportunity” become obvious.
* It is possible to make money from Vitel based solely on recruitment.
Which is great if you are a get-rich-quicker but a giant red flag for someone genuinely interested in building a legitimate MLM business.
1) Because it’s illegal for a MLM business to not have in place a strategy to prevent endless chain recruiting within its’ business plan.
2) Endless chain recruiting is illegal for a very good reason. It’s unsustainable. AND, it condemns the business to failure.
IOW, for Zeeklers looking to replicate the Zeek experience (complete with collapse) albeit on a much smaller and less likely to produce similar results scale, go for it.
For anyone interested in building a sustainable genuine MLM business, my advice would be to think long and hard then run, don’t walk, away.
Is he still pushing for the “call me bullshit” lmao.
“Facepalm”
Then you got me very confused, because what you said and what MLMAdvocate said do not fit together. I will, of course, believe you are familiar with your business and MLM Advocate may be slight off.
You wrote:
While MLMAdvocate wrote:
So who’s correct? I’m going to guess Scott Rogers is correct, so MLMAdvocate need to explain where he got his info.
Furthermore, what does Vitel get out of it? Do you get paid by the vendors, i.e. Verizon and so on? Is that most of your revenue?
I am now ever more confused, about Vitel Wireless. I also noticed that no more communications beyond September 2012.
I have been approached about Vitel. FHTM is gone. I watch and wait for a bit.
I was on a conference call with Mr Rogers, very honest genuine guy from everything I heard and he wasnt pitching the business. We shall see.
Before I say anything else, I am a Team Leader with Vitel. After reading through the posts above I wanted to put some updated information into the mix.
First of all, Vitel DOES have products of our own. We have the ViFi wireless hotspot, the Vitel Benefits Network and the $35 Unlimited wireless plan along with being a reseller for a number of other products. We are not, as mentioned above, strictly a membership company.
If you had a hard time understanding the compensation I’m sorry, we don’t seem to be having that trouble with the majority of people who have been looking it over.
We are a growing company and like all companies have ups and downs but in the overall the company is growing by leaps and bounds and making a lot of money for folks, paying bills for a lot of people and saving money for a lot more. Are products are by and large the same products that most people want, need and use on a daily basis.
(Ozedit: removed derail attempt)
Which vendor’s product are they reselling?
Selling discounts on third-party’s products is not a product.
Again, which third-party vendor’s service are they reselling?
Vitel sell membership which provides access to all the third-party services and products above. Vitel themselves don’t have a product.
There’s nothing wrong with selling third-party products and services but when you add on an MLM compensation plan that pays on recruitment you’ve got yourself a red flag.
Before people fly off the handle (it’s an attack on MLM!) I’ll just say Vitel shows less warning signs than some of the more outright scams. 🙂 That’s not really a compliment. 😀
You have products, but you’re just resellers of someone else’s services. How much do you really make off thos esales? Nothing really wrong with that, but it must be asked along with another question: are you paid anything for recruitng reps? That’s the questions that need to be answered.
YTBI in the US lets their reps sell trips, as well as pay them for recruit more reps. As it turns out, trips makes people no money (pennies, a few dollars) while recruiting reps pays much more (50 to 100 per member), so people naturally gravitate to recruit members instead of selling trips. That’s why they got sued out of two states as a pyramid selling scheme, and is now essentially dead.
They did have products… and they did sell products… but is that their PRIMARY FOCUS, and is that the PRIMARY INCOME for its reps? That is the question you should be asking. 🙂
@K.Chang.
You asked about primary focus. In terms solely of legality, does it matter if the primary source of income for reps is from recruiting for reps as long as the primary source of income for the company is not from recruiting?
In other words if the company can survive and thrive without income from recruiting because of the revenue it receives from its products/services, yet reps can make substantial income from recruiting others is that then a legal entity?
In your example of YTB, it was evident that the company could not survive without the recruiting revenue of websites to pay commission. Is legality then defined by a company’s ability to survive without dependency on recruitment bonuses, “kits” or other packages?
This question doesn’t make sense.
You can’t generate a “primary source of income from reps” without recruiting, regardless of whether it’s under the guise of product/service sales or not.
In effect, if the majority of your revenue comes from internal sales you’re still relying on recruitment to generate revenue.
From the FTC (November 2012):
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/inv08-bottom-line-about-multi-level-marketing-plans
No. As Oz quoted, the definition of pyramid scheme, i.e. Koscot test, specified that “is affiliate being paid to mostly recruit more affiliates who also paid to join the system” determines whether it is a pyramid scheme or not.
Company income source does not really enter into it.
Thank you both.
In the FHTM case as I understand it, revenues from recruiting contributed to the commissions paid to reps. Without that revenue, FHTM would have folded because they were not generating enough from “retail” to pay the reps, hence the ponzi accusation.
My understanding from that was that if company income could pay commissions from its retail activity and was not reliant on sponsoring income to pay reps then it was legal.
So in Vitel’s case if reps could be paid from value services offered to the general market place then “OK” but if revenues from sponsoring were taken by the company to pay reps then “not OK”. Is that an incorrect perception?
If a company has sufficient retail activity it would not need to charge its reps any money, or charge something like a token amount of say, $5 a month as purely a “service fee” that should be insignificant compared to what the reps pay in commission.
A company CAN charge reps a little. I was slightly off-base when I commented earlier about revenue source does not matter. It does, but only as relates to the payment to reps. A scheme cannot be “pay to play”, i.e. majority of the reps paid into the system, while those who earned earned their money by recruiting reps (who paid into the system).
In that case, lack of retail means most of the company’s revenue is from reps paying into the company, and thus, reps are getting paid on each other’s joining, and that is illegal.
Vitel’s question basically is it has no products on its own, as it’s relying on third-party products of unknown profitabilty. Is that sufficient to pay the commission to the reps, or are they relying on rep month payments as well?
Or to give a slightly more concrete example… Say I have a monthly phone bill of $100. How much does the guy who signed me up get as commission, assuming I’m a regular customer, NOT Vitel rep? Is that more or less than the service he pays per month as “support”, if any?
How much does a vitel rep make a month, on the average, from how much ‘sales’? (i.e the commission rate)? 2%? 5%? 10%? 20%? 25%? More? Less?
With phone service, I expect that to be on the low-end, so how much *can* you expect to make?
First of all, it will be up to regulators / courts to decide whether something is legal or illegal. The Koscot Test is only a “doctrine” and should normally not be used as the ONLY test.
A promotional pyramid is (slightly simplified) …
* a plan or a system
* where a consumer gives consideration
* for the right to earn financial gains
* that derives primarily from other consumers being introduced to the plan
* rather than from sales or consumption of goods or services.
* it has to be about an endless chain recruitment system
None of the points are very specific. They are made “vague” and “wide” on purpose to make it difficult to find loopholes, and they will have to be interpreted by regulators and courts.
None of the points are LIMITED, e.g. “derives from the introduction” will cover much more than introduction fees or initial purchases.
JURISDICTION
“Regulators” will first have to identify their own JURISDICTION, e.g. whether they or other regulators have the correct jurisdiction.
* BurnLounge was/is prosecuted by the FTC
* ZeekRewards is being prosecuted by the SEC
“Jurisdiction” in that case is about the laws that gives the regulator its powers (different types of powers), the position that law has in the judicial system (to avoid conflicts with other laws with a higher rank order).
PSEUDO COMPLIANCE
The judicial system typically works from the top to the bottom, not the other way around. MLM organizers will typically work the other way, e.g. focus on small details near the bottom of the system, trying to be in compliance or pseudo compliance with specific rules.
MLM organizers will typically apply their own theories for what they believe is legal or illegal, or invent new theories so their own model can fit within some pseudo legality framework (e.g. “the NEW consumer model”). 🙂
Jah Kafele introduced a theory about regulators using special rules for “baby companies”. That’s plain BS. When you’re finding MANY theories like that in a company then it’s something wrong in its business model.
What an interesting discussion. I enjoyed it.
I have been looking for something and the cell deals seemed ideal. I haven’t done MLM in almost 20 years, not because I think it is bad, but I like to have a salable product and really don’t care for health and nutrition stuff, just my personality.
I have been a professional salesman and years ago was the top cell phone salesman in my city. I also detest front loads. That kept me from a serious look at lightyear.
Maybe MLM is not the place for me anymore. All of my success was with water filtration..(not NSA, I said filtration) where I sold hundreds of filters, insurance where I covered my nut with personal sales, alarm sales….sold tons.
Shucks, signed up with EcoQuest to sell air and water filtration and they got bought out and the company got rid of the water filters and put in a bunch of soy crap (soy increases female hormones)…I’m 67, maybe its time to just sit on the rocker and doze!
Wow, it has been a long time. @oz and @kchang I hope all is well. Just stopping by to say hello. Havent read this thread in a long while. Wow, have things changed and evolved. As always, I appreciate what you do.
Glad to see you drop by, Mr. Rogers. You’re one of the more open execs that cares to drop by and answer some questions. Hope everything’s going well? Vitel is comparatively one of the less “alarming” opportunities out there. That’s actually meant as a compliment. 😀
@kchang thanks, we always have work to do but we are getting better and striving to make Vitel the best out there. One day at a time. Lots of improvements since last time I dropped by.
I think Troy Dooly announced that Vitel is merging with Shopping Sherlock?