Traveling Vineyard claim compensation is “proprietary info”
Last week I published a review on Yoli.
The review saw me criticize Yoli for ambiguity in their affiliate sign-up form, with respect to affiliate fees and monthly autoship.
I also criticized the withholding of crucial information in Yoli’s compensation plan, as affiliate costs detailed in the sign-up form were absent.
All in all it’s a shame Yoli is let down by information not presented in its compensation plan.
You go through it and there’s no mention of autoship when signing up or a correlation between rank PV and autoship CV – with it not being evident unless you research joining costs.
Yesterday Len Clements commented on the review, suggesting with full sarcasm that I should have contacted Yoli.
Oz, next time I encourage you to use an investigative technique that I’ve developed, and have had great success with over the years. I call it, “ASK!” (patent pending).
A few days ago I sat down to begin researching The Traveling Vineyard, with an intention to publish a reader request review.
On Saturday I realized The Traveling Vineyard failed to provide the public with a copy of their compensation plan.
Now as I explained to Clements, I see the withholding of crucial business information as a massive failure on behalf of an MLM company.
Whereas I normally might obtain compensation plan information elsewhere, in the case of The Traveling Vineyard such information is non-existent.
Purely a co-incidence, in this particular instance I took the initiative to email The Traveling Vineyard and request a copy of their compensation plan.
Hi there, I couldn’t see a copy of your compensation plan on your website. I’ve seen the YouTube summary but was after more detailed information.
Do you have a complete compensation document I can review? Thanks.
This was, bear in mind, before Clements left his comment suggesting I contact MLM companies yesterday.
Today I received a reply from The Traveling Vineyard. They claim they can’t provide me a with a copy of their compensation plan… because apparently it’s “proprietary information”.
For those unfamiliar with the company, The Traveling Vineyard are an MLM opportunity that operate in the wine niche.
The company is based out of Massachusetts in the US, and is headed up by “Chief Grape Stomper” Rick Libby.
Libby claims to have coined the concept of a wine-based MLM opportunity. He acquired The Traveling Vineyard following its bankruptcy in 2011.
The concept behind free home wine tasting and Traveling Vineyard had been my idea in 2001 when I worked for Geerlings & Wade, a leader in the direct marketing of quality wine.
If the home party concept could work for plastic storage containers and cooking utensils, why not wine?
I tested the idea with a dozen people and it took off. By 2005, Traveling Vineyard had thousands of independent consultants, who work from home hosting more than 100,000 home tasting events a year in 26 states.
After decades in various sales, marketing and management positions, I had finally fallen in love with a business.
Just when the Traveling Vineyard model had built momentum, a leadership change in the parent company triggered some strategic decisions with which I disagreed, particularly a decision to make changes to the programs we created that supported the self-employed independent wine consultants, our Wine Guides.
The Guides form the heart and soul of the business model. How could I be expected to tell these wine enthusiasts about program impacts to them that I completely disagreed with?
That’s when I left Traveling Vineyard and spent five years doing other things – until I heard about the bankruptcy filing.
I persuaded my wife, presented my case to dozens of friends and investors, emptied my savings accounts (yes, all of them), and made a run at it.
I knew that if our Wine Guides received the support they needed to be successful, the company would get back on its feet.
By November 2010, Traveling Vineyard was back in business. Today, we’re proud to have more than 2,500 happy and satisfied independent Wine Guides in nearly 40 states who love their home based businesses.
I’d completed my company research, gone over The Traveling Vineyard’s wine range and had a vague idea of what the compensation plan was from the aforementioned YouTube summary video.
But I needed the full details of the MLM opportunity to publish a review and accurate conclusion. This saw me email The Traveling Vineyard to request a copy of their compensation plan.
I figured given the otherwise legitimate nature of The Traveling Vineyard opportunity, that the failure to provide their compensation plan on their website was an oversight.
I was wrong.
Hi there!
Thank you so much for you interest!
Our complete compensation plan is actually proprietary information that is only available to our current Wine Guides.
Are you in touch at all with one of them who may be able to provide a first hand look for you? If not, I’d be happy to put you in touch with someone.
Sorry, what? Your business model is proprietary information? Like hell it is.
And what, I’m going to get in contact with some poor affiliate who thinks he or she might have a lead, just to deflate their excitement by informing them I’m just trying to conduct basic due diligence into their opportunity?
To put it bluntly, that’s some pretty piss-poor executive management right there.
Look, I get the whole “talk to one of our affiliates for the real story” marketing crap. We get it a lot here at BehindMLM, where affiliates request readers “contact them for the real story”.
I routinely mark these comments as spam, because the silly marketing tactic is spotable a mile off.
For an MLM company itself to try to pull it though?
Cmon guys, your compensation plan isn’t proprietary information. It’s basic math that spells out how affiliates in your business opportunity are paid.
This is information crucial to anyone conducting due diligence into The Traveling Vineyard, and your intentional withholding of it hampers an individual’s effort to make an informed decision about your opportunity.
Pending disclosure of The Traveling Vineyard’s compensation plan, I’m suggesting avoidance of the opportunity altogether.
The MLM industry by and large is populated by companies who readily disclose in full the affiliate compensation aspects of their business. Companies that don’t are not worth wasting your time on, irrespective of the niche they operate in, how old they are or whatever else about the company you might be able to ascertain.
Over to you Len.
Update 3rd November 2019 – BehindMLM revisited Traveling Vineyard in 2019 and published a complete review.
The reason they do not publish the comp plan is because they have a credit card merchant to accept credit cards and the merchant they are with does not allow mlm companies. They don’t want the merchant to know they are mlm.
Also you cannot ship wine to many states. It is illegal to some states.
@Dan
Are they shipping to the states where it is illegal? What credit card company are they dealing with?
I am not sure what merchant they use. I just know it’s very hard to get a merchant account these days especially for an mlm.
Mlm is high risk for chargebacks. They have to disguise the business as ecommerce.
Same thing mlm does in china. They have a Chinese site with no comp plan to sell in china.
As far as the states they sell in I don’t know. I just know some states do not allow shipping of wine to their states.
wine shipping laws in the US are complicated and vary from state to state.
generally ‘wineries’ [traveling wineyard is a registered winery] are allowed to ship wine to 41 US states as of july 2015, out of the 50 states. eg:
the 41 states that allow direct ‘winery to consumer’ shipping mostly have a cap on the number of wine cases that can be delivered either monthly or annually. eg:
also it is ILLEGAL for consumers to sell or ship wine themselves, without the assistance of a licensed third party, unless they have a liquor license.
so, affiliates of traveling vineyard cannot sell a bottle of wine from the case they have ordered from the company. the company will have to directly ship the order to the customer.
the fact that traveling vineyard encourages affiliates to hold wine tastings, hints at some type of autoship requirement in the compensation plan. as affiliates cannot sell the wine they order, they must share it as ‘samples’, and then recruit more people into the opportunity.
winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/50258
a wine case generally has 12 bottles of wine. the 41 states that allow direct ‘winery to consumer’ shipping, mostly limit/cap delivery to a maximum of 2 cases a month.
this means that ‘generally speaking’ a TV [traveling vineyard] affiliate can receive two cases or 24 bottles of wine every month ‘legally’.
now here is the problem:
it seems TV ships party orders to the affiliate herself, and she is expected to deliver it individually to her customers who ordered wine at the wine tasting.
since it is illegal for consumers to sell wine without a liquor license, is it legal for consumers to ‘receive’ and ‘distribute’ wine? isn’t that akin to ‘selling’ as the affiliate receives compensation from the company? i’m not sure, and maybe a TV rep should clarify this, IF it is not ‘proprietary’ information.
further the shipping rates of TV are the same at approx 10$, whether you purchase 1 bottle or a case.
from what i could understand, TV wine sells at approx 14$-25$ a bottle, so finding retail customers for a single bottle of wine will be difficult given the shipping costs.
with retail margins beginning at 15%, a TV affiliate will have to sell a lot of wine bottles to make a reasonable income. this may very easily take their orders to over two cases a month. so, how does TV ship more than 2 cases to an affiliate when it is illegal to do so in most states?
here’s hoping that mr len clements will utilize his investigative technique of “ASK!”, and share TV’s comp plan with the the MLM world.
otherwise, no point applying for a patent and all 🙂
traveling vineyard is a member of the direct selling association [DSA].
the DSA’s ‘code of ethics’ includes:
so, technically speaking, the DSA does not require that an MLM publish its compensation plan for the public.
since MLM is about public participation, it seems quite silly that the DSA does not require a full disclosure of a members comp plan for public consumption.
since the TV comp plan is not available online, i suspect TV affiliates are made to sign NDA’s to keep it secret.
since TV is a registered winery selling a legitimate product at what appears to be fair prices, what do they have to hide?
there is a complaint on ripoff reports about TV which claims:
I find it laughable that the DSA (indirectly) support non-disclosure of compensation to the general public.
But hey, they signed off on Vemma too so uh yeah.
it seems that in 2015, this was the cost of joining TV:
does TV pay commissions on this joining kit? if they do, it will be a recruitment commission.
is this joining kit refundable? doesn’t seem so according to the TV website:
unlike TV, DSA members like amway and herbalife allow refunds on the joining kits.
traveling vineyard also provides affiliates with a personal website which costs approx 16$ a month. are commissions paid off these monthly costs of downline affiliates?
also, for every wine tasting party you host, you have to purchase wine worth 75$. you are encouraged to hold at least two wine tastings a month.these purchases seem non refundable too.
so, even though TV has no monthly autoship requirements, you cannot earn money from TV without continually investing 75$ and hoping to make it back via orders. or you can recruit more affiliates at 174$ and probably get commission on that and the monthly website autoship payment.
TV affiliates cannot sell wine directly as it is illegal to do so. they can only earn commissions by investing 75$ repeatedly and hope to recover it through retail or downline commissions.
with no buyback on these affiliate purchases, affiliates are set up for loss.
if i have got something wrong^^, TV affiliates can clarify the real picture, unless they are muzzled from talking about the comp plan.
Oh, you mean they dont want to get caught commiting fraud. Thats a great excuse.
No its not. Not for a legitimate company. Thats just what the crap deals tell people and they actually believe it.
We accept all major credit cards, we have exclusive deals with Visa & Mastercard that provide better benefits to the consumer. We even have our OWN branded credit cards with cashback etc, through visa. We also have a deal with PayPal that is exclusive to only us and Apple.
Hell you can even register ANY bank card, credit card, debit card, etc, etc, with us and get deals and cashback ANYWHERE you use it. If you are a distributor, you get that PLUS credit towards comissions.
The point is ANY real company that is not a ponzi or pyramid scheme, has absolutely ZERO issues with merchants accounts.
Cheers!
Credit Card processors actually LOVE chargebacks. They get to charge BOTH ways, so dont believe that one for a second either.
Paypal does not allow any mlm companies. Look at their terms and conditions.
You are wrong about the ease of getting a merchant account. You don’t know what you are talking about. Credit Card processors hate chargebacks.
They do make more money on chargebacks but it you get near 1% chargebacks they will shut the account immediately without notice.
It is obvious you have never run a business that accepts credits cards. When you apply for a merchant account they have to approve your website.
They are definitely hiding something if they are not publishing the comp plan.
It appears you haven’t actually dealt with credit card companies as a merchant.
You only get X chances for chargeback depending on your “reputation”. Once you went beyond it, you’re asked to go elsewhere… Or keep extra money in account lest there are more chargebacks (i.e. holding merchant money as security).
I’d suggest double-checking your source of information, i.e. who’s feeding you this load of crap you’ve been regurgitating.
paypal terms and conditions state:
but according to the policy at the traveling vineyards website, they do not deliver orders to their consultants for further delivery to customers.
since TV’s ‘wine consultants’ [affiliates] are not licensed to ‘sell’ wine, how come TV delivers customer orders to them?
i think TV may be bending wine laws, but these laws are loosely enforced, so they get away with it.
Careful what you ASSUME pal. Regurgitating? Really?
No one is “feeding” me anything. Unlike these MLM drones, I can actually think for myself. Ive owned several businesses over the years, and have had quite a few merchant accounts, but usually have people handle that FOR me so.
Like any human (apherently, except you of course), I am definitely not an expert on all things. So, Why dont you just ask how I came to my conclusion? instead of being a jerkoff about it?
If I am wrong I have no problem admitting it. Perhaps im thinking differently than you are, or I chose the wrong words.
I talked way more about other things than “chargebacks”. No comment on that?
Do you just look for faults? How does that feel? Do you run through life only looking for whats wrong, insted of enjoying whats right?
As far as my networking experience, we have done over $7 Billion in sales of exclusve, brokerd products.
We have been with Visa and Mastercard for over 20 years. Discover and American Express for over 15 years, and Paypal for over 2 years.
We have the option to use the Visa or Mastercard checkout systems as prt of our process. We also have access to paypal credit for merchants (an enhansed version of the credit program THEY already have in place) which is a pilot program they are trying only with US and Apple.
We have less than a 2% return/exchange rate, but with that dollar volume, it still adds up to more than a “few” “chargebacks”.
Some stores like Target, Walmart, and several thousand OTHER stores, have more than a 30% chargeback rate, yet they can still process cards? With the logic you guys are using, how is that possible?
So instead of calling you an rhetoric spouting idiot, I would simply ask for clarification.
Cheers!
Are you just making numbers up out of your head. There is no way Target and Walmart have 30% chargebacks.
I know from personal experience and friends in the merchant account business that if a company has over 1% they will have there account shut down.
This just happened a few months ago with Forever Green. They had $500,000 in credit card fraud which resulted in to many chargebacks and had one of the merchant accounts shut down.
They have multiple back up accounts so they could keep processing but they were put on a 15% reserve.
Whoever is telling you your information has no idea what they are talking about.
Simple Internet searches can let you know the rules about chargebacks. This came from a webite chargebacks911.com
I really don’t get this mlm. Just buy wine at the store. I buy Duplin wine for $6 a bottle and they have the highest resveratrol ever tested on their wine and grapes. There wine is made from muscadine grapes.
Duplin used to supply the raw ingredients for Natures Pearl mlm muscadine capsules until Natures Pear wanted the exclusive on the Duplin grapes and Duplin refused to give it to them.
So, I talked to a guy that runs a Merchant Company and yes, I was wrong.
I was thinking that returns and chargebacks were one in the same. A chargeback is when someone said they didn’t make the purchase at all and that their Credit card info was used by someone else.
I have never had one happen to me, so I assumed it was the same as a return. Its not. and it can actually be a fraudulent practice.
It just seems so foreign to me. Who on earth are these people talking to, that deny buying something? I guess if you swin around in the toilet bowl, sooner or later someone will piss all over you.
The ponzi, pyramid, porn and MLM industries are rife with chargeback fraud, which is why Paypal and some credit card companies either charge higher merchant rates or refuse to do business with companies involved.
For example: buy and download a porn movie, watch it and then do a chargeback via the CC company, claiming the product wasn’t as advertised.
The card company then has to attempt to reclaim the money from the porn company. The company shuts down – the CC company is stuck with the bill.
Similarly with ponzis and pyramids.
The user joins via a credit card. Makes money, then charges back the cost of joining, claiming the company was a fraud, the CC company carries the can
Hence, my original statement that legitimate companys, whether they are direct sales or not, have no problem getting merchant accounts.
If a name brand processor wont even do business with your company, why would you?
People have no sense sometimes.
Were you on autoship?