Indian Herbalife affiliates begging for shutdown?
When one considers the MLM industry globally, often at times it feels like the industry transitions through a simultaneous time-delay.
Typically due to a lack of legal precedents and litigation, as MLM spreads through countries of different economical tiers, I can’t help but observe the same issues and problems cropping up as they did years ago in other countries.
Those seeking to take advantageous of new markets use the same tactics deployed one or two decades ago by those that came before them in what are now well and truly established markets.
Some of these marketing tactics are legitimate… and some not so much.
One that falls squarely on the “not so much” side of things are outrageous claims made by an MLM company’s affiliates, typically deployed to talk up the benefits of a company’s product line.
Echoing product claims made over the past few decades in US markets that have seen numerous MLM companies penalised and, in some cases, permanently shutdown, Herbalife’s Indian distributors are apparently running around making all manner of medical promises.
On its official website, Herbalife makes a level-headed pitch for its herbal tea mixes: “Ditch the coffee and soda for this refreshing and tasty alternative. Feel reinvigorated with this natural energy lift, our answer to fatigue caused by stress. It’s delicious, instant and low in calories.”
There’s even an asterisk to note that the Food and Drug Administration has not evaluated these claims.
But in the hands of one independent Herbalife distributor based in West Delhi, India, peddling her wares on Facebook, that same herbal tea mix offers a lot more upside.
Among her “9 Reasons to Drink more Herbal Concentrate Beverage,” it “may suppress lung cancer growth,” “may halt colorectal cancer” and, most enticingly, “it causes prostate cancer cells to commit suicide.”
Another India distributor’s LinkedIn profile, deleted after CNBC requested comment from Herbalife via email, explained that “Nutritional herbal food helps to maintain your Weight & Health.”
The distributor added, “We have also achieved good results in controlling Acidity, Asthma, Blood Pressure, Cancer, Diabetes, Heart Diseases, Cells Proper Counting, Thyroid, Knee Pain, Back Pain, Body Weakness, Women’s Health, Metabolisms, Child’s Physical & Mental Growth, Under Weight, Over Weight & Physical Fitness / Health etc.”
“Maintaining your weight and health” fair enough… but all that other stuff? Prostate cancer cell suicide!? Yeah…
On the regulatory side of things I believe Herbalife’s affiliate marketing claims would fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Consumer Affairs.
As part of their public awareness campaign “Jago Gharak Jago”, India’s DoCA advise warn the public to ‘be aware of “‘misleading advertisements” and “false misleading ad promises”.
Whereas the FTC’s role in regulating claims such as “Herbalife’s products can cure cancer” are clear-cut, the extent with which DoCA investigate such claims is not clear.
I note that there’s a strong emphasis on consumer reporting on the DoCA website, indicating a potential lack of pro-activity on behalf of the department on such matters.
I did try to find a closer FTC equivalent who operated with more apparent autonomy but came up blank. The Competition Commission of India was the closest I could find, however they seem more concerned with regulating business practices than anything on the consumer side of things (note that Herbalife India themselves don’t make any of the claims cited by CNBC).
Perhaps more worrying than Herbalife’s affiliates claims is the company’s own stance on the matter:
Our distributors are independent contractors and, accordingly, we are not in a position to directly provide the same direction, motivation and oversight as we would if distributors were our own employees.
As a result, there can be no assurance that our distributors will participate in our marketing strategies or plans, accept our introduction of new products, or comply with our distributor policies and procedures.
What’s more amazing is that the above wasn’t a direct response to claims made by Indian affiliates, but rather was pulled from Herbalife’s most recent 10-K filing in the US.
A Form 10-K is an annual report required by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), that gives a comprehensive summary of a company’s performance.
In a country where time and time again the argument that “we had no control over what our affiliates did” has not held up in court, it’s ultimately baffling how Herbalife’s response can be effectively boiled down to: ‘so long as our direct employees aren’t making the claims, we don’t give a shit’.
And if that’s Herbalife’s official company stance on affiliate advertising claims in the US market, who knows what Herbalife’s affiliates are getting away with elsewhere in the world.
In India at least apparently prostate cancer cells are so fearful of Herbalife’s products that they just give up and… well, whatever it is cancer cells do to “commit suicide”.
Personally I have no idea where Herbalife’s “they aren’t our employees so we don’t care” stance stems from. I’ve certainly don’t recall an MLM company’s affiliates being held personally responsible by the FTC for false and misleading advertising claims in the US, do you?
Chinese reps of NuSkin are claiming NuSkin Pharmanex LifePak Nano vitamins, when taken in conjuction with fish oil and gandorama caplets (also by NuSkin?) cures all sorts of cancer and various chronic infections.
I did a partial translation on Salty’s website. Scroll up and down as I can’t find a permalink.
I wonder how many millions NuSKin has to pay Chinese authorities for a “cures cancer claims” license…
as long as company owned websites or promotional materials, do not make far fetched claims about the products being sold, it will be difficult to prove any wrong doing by the company based on individual distributor postings on the net. how can any company control that, except for reprimanding or even terminating the concerned distributor, when such claims are brought to it’s notice.
for instance, the recent FIR against qnet ,india, regarding false product claims ,has gone exactly nowhere .the company apparently clarifies on it’s website that it is offering no miracle products and distributors sign agreements saying they will not misrepresent the company, so how can the company be held liable ?
traditionally promotions are controlled centrally through advertisements ,in person to person promotion of products, these issues are going to crop up time and again, given the large number of distributors with their ‘individualized’ pitches for product selling .
when they overstep, fine them, spank them, terminate them. but you cant go around saying ‘Indian Herbalife affiliates begging for shutdown?’ because a distributor from west delhi says herbalife tea cures cancer ! overrrreaction?
Oh I dunno, how about they start with some proactive marketing training for affiliates?
Nobody just magically signs up for Herbalife, they have to go through the company and if the company fails to inform affiliates what not do in their marketing efforts, that’s on them.
If I join Herbalife today, pay my fees and sign up for autoship, does the company advise me on how not to market my business? And if it’s buried away on page 9,951 of some document tucked away in recessed of a webserver nobody ever vists… why have it at all?
And how are Herbalife claiming to be able to reign in their employees but not their affiliates? What exactly differentiates an employee from an affiliate when it comes to deciding to make cure cancer claims? Are Herbalife providing additional marketing training to their employees that they aren’t providing the field?
Why don’t you ask the companies who have fined and shutdown for this very thing?
Random affiliates don’t just get it stuck into their head that products “cure cancer”. It stems from somewhere…
i bet they have plenty of trainings and seminars .however this can never stop an ‘imaginative’ distributor from west delhi from creating her own spiel .a good teacher can never be expected to return 100 % results, why expect perfection from an industry involving so many individuals? these distributor behaviors, are aberrations, not the rule , and should be treated as such .you generalize too much oz.
because the nature of their contracts are different ? affiliates are NOT employees ?
mostly it’s companies who themselves promote their products as having ‘miracle’, unsubstantiated qualities. how many companies got shut down because one ,or two, or ten distributors out of 300,000, attributed some ‘miraculous’ qualities to a product? overrrgeneralization ??
oz , wheres your article on ‘Chinese NuSkin affiliates begging for shutdown ?’ waiting !
“I bet” doesn’t cut it. I found nothing in the signup process indicating the communication of marketing guidelines to affiliates when I reviewed Herbalife. Just sign up and hand over your money.
There’s probably something about it in the affiliate agreement, but nobody is going to see one paragraph out of a 3,928 page document.
The percentage is not important, it’s the company’s attitude to the issue. If someone can find cancer cure claims via a simple Google search, then the MLM company in question clearly isn’t doing enough (or the affiliate making the claims would have already been warned and/or terminated).
Herbalife can spend millions hiring sports stars but don’t have anyone on affiliate marketing compliance? Nothing suss…
Not the parts about false marketing claims. Or are you going to suggest there’s nothing about making false marketing claims in Herbalife affiliate contracts?
No, it isn’t. US regulators do however penalise the company for its affiliates making false claims in their marketing.
No idea on the exact number. Far more have been warned and/or subsequently fined though as the industry has matured in the US (see comments about other countries only going through now what the US did 10-20 years ago).
These days companies operating in the US know what happens if they ignore FDA warning letters. It only took a few examples for that to sink in.
For a general idea you can plug “mlm” “fda warning” into Google (inclusive of quotation marks).
It’s stuck in Google translate. Besides, I believe Citron were fairly thorough in their coverage.
Herbieland update… Latino-Americans and African-Americans are demanding California Attorney General Kamala Harris (formerly of San Francisco) to investigate Herbalife
While a demonstration outside an Herbalife event in LA apparently irked CEO Michael Johnson enough that he went up and to the organizer Wilkes and accused him of believing in lies.
They have powerful arguments, but the arguments will need to be used correctly.
“Stop preying on this community, or we will throw stones at you”. They will need to build it up with some factual details, clearly illustrating how “right” they are and how “important” it is. The brain needs two sets of information, both the emotional one and some logical information. Emotional information isn’t enough.
They will need to find some victims and identify some logical patterns for how the victims have been cheated, and pass that information along with the emotional one.
Information showing that the Nutrition Clubs really are recruitment centers will add important details to their story.
NDAs will add to their story, “the victims are not allowed to tell anyone”. If something like that exist, it will clearly add to their story and it can even be used separatedly.
Financial details will add to their story. It’s more illustrative if you can show exact examples for losses rather than vague and general “people have lost”.
Marketing and recruitment methods will add to their story, especially if the methods are being analysed and show a “pattern of misledaing practices”.
They probably have the right intentions, but they don’t have the right tools. They have focused too much on emotional “drive” and too little on the logical parts.
OTHER USEFUL TOOLS
* Herbalife’s compensation plan, it ONLY rewards recruitment. The wholesale discount isn’t a reward, it’s a discount.
* Herbalife’s compensation plan, the different “qualifiers” for “pay for your paycheck” don’t reflect true self consumption, they reflect “paying for positions”.
* Logic: In a recruitment system, the average participant can only have ONE directly recruited = it’s impossible to make money for an average participant. If retail sales to external customers are insignificant in the system, the income opportunity can’t work either.
Another good idea is to ask your opponent to be specific in his claims, e.g. when Herbalife’s CEO tries to direct focus towards all the “good” Herbalife has done and is doing, keep the discussion focused at that topic and ask for details about it.
“How many have actually made money, and how many have lost? Can you be specific about it?”. Let your opponent dig his own grave by forcing him to be specific.
If your opponent won’t go into details, use that as an argument against him. “If you can’t answer things like that correctly and in a certain amount of details, you should probably stop making vague claims about it”. If he’s referring to an IDS, ask him about the details there, e.g. about how they define the different groups and how the numbers are calculated.
* Make sure you have ENOUGH basic information to be able to handle all parts of a discussion, and enough to ask the right questions.
* Analyse your opponent’s defense strategy. He will probably use the same type of strategy over and over again.
Pretty obvious that Herbalife has targetted Hispanic community when it claims to have 60% of distributors being Hispanic, while Hispanic only accounts for 16% of US population…
I can add some information about what I believe the Hispanic Community need to know or look for, if they want the State AG to look into the case.
California’s pyramid scheme information:
“Always look at how THEY see it before you present how YOU see it” is a general rule if you want anyone to do something. Get all the basic information you can, but focus on overview rather than on the details.
I also tried to find the correct laws for pyramid schemes and misleading trade practices, but I’m not familiar enough with the law system there. I only found traditional pyramid schemes under Lottery and Gambling.
Rule 2 = “Don’t spend too much time looking for details you can’t find easily. Work from an overview perspective most of the time”. I’m making up rules like that along the way to make the work become more effective right from the start. If you waste too much time on details in the beginning, you will lose the overview perspective.
Rule 3 = “Identify the problem correctly, but from more than one viewpoint. Make the definition flexible and easy to improve”.
From Herbalife’s viewpoint, the hispanic community is an identifiable group of people, a type of “market”. You will need to know something about how Herbalife see it before you can find effective methods.
From the State AG’s viewpoint, it’s a potential case that potentially belongs in his or her juridiction. It must be identified clearly from that viewpoint as a resolvable case of some importance, something that can get a certain priority but without being too complicated or time consuming.
The leaders of the Hispanic Community will need to identify it clearly from their own viewpoints too, as a resolvable case. “Resolvable” = they must be able to DO something, other than asking other people to do all the job. “Do something” can be about collecting and organizing some basic information (what other people need to know).
the order denying hebalife’s motion to dismiss distributor dana bostwicks class action suit can be read here:
one point in this order reads :” Rescission : The only remedy which Plaintiff seeks for his Endless Chain Scheme claim is rescission ”
i don’t know the functioning of US courts, but does this mean, that in case the charges of endless chain scheme are proved ,the only claim [remedy] of the plaintiff is repayment of his expenses ?
the order finds that the plaintiff is entitled to only his expenses on the ‘International Business Pack’ of about 99.9$ .Even if 1000 distributors are part of this class action how much can this hurt herbalife financially ?
the plaintiff is not asking for the remedy of herbalife being shut down ?
a little over a dozen people holding placards is not worthy of being called a ‘demonstration’ .there were thousands of latino distributors attending the event .LULAC and the other ethnic group representatives, are just not able to show grassroot level support for their anti herbalife stance.
Oh I dunno, try Herbalife doesn’t exist anymore.
Y’know, what with endless chain schemes, otherwise known as pyramid schemes being illegal and all.
One person can hold a demonstration if need be, quit trying to derail the topic. How many people rocked up to the event has no bearing either way.
The ORDER denies defendant Herbalife’s Motion to Dismiss on five causes of action.
Regarding recission… it says that IF the plaintiff’s prevail on their claim of recission rights they will be due the amount you mention (at least.)
If the right to rescind is upheld at a later date then the actual amounts to be refunded will be calculated and that will depend on a myriad of factors.
This is by no means the final word on amounts or even if the plaintiffs CAN rescind, and its not determinative of how this situation resolves itself
Rescission is an equitable remedy fashioned by a court. Its effect is to put the parties into the same position they held before the contract was entered into. Herbalife argued that for various reasons recission was inapplicable. The judge disagreed and gave an example of how it recission could be accomplished. on this basis he denied the motion to dismiss that element of the Complaint.
Strategically, the plaintiffs may want to establish that they never had and continue to have no contractual obligation to Herbalife. Herbalife may desire just the opposite. This little piece of lawyering is about much more than the the small amount of money that the judge mentioned. The scaffolding is being built by the attorneys that will support their cases going forward.
That is not a remedy that can be requested by a plaintiff. The state would have to bring that kind of action. Depending on how this trial goes the State may do just that.
Well its understandable that some would support this and others would not.
But Great Oaks from small acorns grow. That the Motion to Dismiss was denied is the planting of a seed. Only time will tell if the seed will grow. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
One thing is for sure, no law firm is going to take this on for the recission dollars due to a 1000 people. No. The plaintiff attorneys are going for RICO (triple damages)based on a HUGE class of people and it is the law not demonstrations and placards that will decide.
The saddest thing of all is that if this effort succeeds, the short sellers win, a small group of attorneys will profit massively and the millions of class action plaintiffs (hispanic and otherwise will get a few dollars or some Herbalife coupons.
oh i dunno, try being less dramatic ?
according to wiki , herbalife has had such run in’s before .out of three previous class action suits , 2 were settled for pocket cash and the third appears to be pending .
i dont think civil class action suits result in anything except damages oz , so don’t try to scare little me .
BTW , herbalife DID change the nomenclature for non recruiting distributors in it’s second quarter results:
the third quarter results are expected anyday now and the buzz is that the stock will soar once again .
thumbs up for the info hossboss , but previously two class action suits against herbalife, were settled for 6 and 7 million, how much worse can this one be ?
other companies including big names like nuskin , appear to have had more run in’s with anti pyramiding laws in more states, and in fact nuskin had the FTC investigate them at one point. this has not resulted in shutdown, but only civil settlements and fines. so i’m not sure if this suit against herbalife can produce state action.
also, under california anti pyramiding laws i came across a strange sentence :
herbalife distributors buy reasonable amounts of products, on a regular basis, which can account as self consumption, so this california interpretation gives them enough flyspace ?
Try being less stupid. For the plaintiff to win Herbalife has to be ruled an endless chain scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal.
The civil action would naturally pave the way for further action against the company, which would probably start off with a regulatory investigation, if one wasn’t already open.
This isn’t India, there’s no BS once pyramid and Ponzi scheme issues reach the judicial level.
AFAIK Members = affiliates who don’t recruit and distributors = affiliates recruit.
Both have access to the comp plan so it’s a complete failure to differentiate their retail customers from their affiliates, which they said they’d do back in February (said they’d implement it in April, which never happened).
Basically they don’t want to do it because they can’t run around falsely claiming affiliates who fail to recruit are retail customers then. They know full-well nobody is going to join a wholesale customer class if they create one. Affiliates who don’t recruit are there on the income opportunity pipedream.
Otherwise Herbalife would have taken the 2 second required to create a wholesale customer class sometime over the past 4 decades.
The judge ruled that there is a possibility that a remedy of rescission can be applied. He denied the Motion to Dismiss.
The claim to recission rights is not settled, it has just has not been dismissed.
Governmental agency actions almost always result in fines and settlements which are civil in nature. California has the option of proceeding civilly against Herbalife.
In egregious cases insiders are charged by the state attorney general under criminal statutes. Civil action is the main enforcement tool whether its brought by state or national agencies.
Self consumption is about “what reasonably can be expected to be consumed by the participant and his family within reasonable time”. But “qualifying purchases” will partly fail to meet the definition of self consumption (the illegal part isn’t about sale or consumption, but about paying for potential financial gains from recruitment).
Self consumption should be about normal self consumption, not about mandatory purchases when people want to qualify for or maintain a position. Sales to distributors in a downline CAN fail to meet the criterias for self consumption.
It failed for Wealth Masters International (WMI) in Norway in 2010 / 2011. People were clearly paying for positions and the right to earn different types of commissions. They could either PAY or RECRUIT (pass ups = indirect payment).
Minor “qualifying volumes” can be acceptable, e.g. to keep distributors “active” (“buy something or quit”), e.g. to prevent having “dead” distributors in the system for too long time. Other rational explanations can also be acceptable, but purchases shouldn’t be about incentives other than personal discounts.
Rewarding people for selling to a downline isn’t very acceptable. That will make people try to recruit rather than try to sell goods to ordinary customers. If you ONLY have internal sales, the system is clearly recruitment oriented and should potentially be shut down (recruitment oriented systems can’t work).
Also keep in mind that California’s “endless chain” definition is slightly looser than the Federal Koscot test, IIRC.
Ex-AG now Governor Jerry Brown sued YTBI (later Zamzuu) using the California definition, which in turn cause one or two other states to sue as well. Though the Feds took no action on that one. Zamzuu closed earlier this year, IIRC.
Generally, the hammer that States use is their regulatory power to issue, suspend and deny licensing. Along with that goes the power to fine. Civil Codes provide for this.
Herbieland update: coalition of anti-scam, anti-MLM, anti-cult, and MLM Watchdog bloggers join to petition FTC to investigate MLM in general and Herbalife in particular.
Many familiar names in the list
I haven’t read other than the article itself (not the attached document), but regulators should normally not respond with actions when it’s about “group with certain interests” against “group with other interests”.
People fail to get results when they are too focused on their own interests, whatever those interests might be, and too little focused on “the rules of the game” and other ideas not directly related to their immediate interests.
The list seems to be FILLED with anti-MLM activists. That’s usually not a good idea. NEUTRALITY is a much better weapon if you want to achieve something. Neutrality and objectivity are much more powerful weapons than “onesided interests”.
When people group together based on the idea of “like minded people”, they will typically start to reflect very onesided ideas, the ideas that initially brought them together. They will be less effctive in bringing those ideas out to people in general (or to regulators), e.g. DSA completely fail its efforts to affect people’s ideas outside a specific environment of supporters.
There are even scientific studies (from Stanford or something) on how groups will affect results in a negative way in SOME areas. I have tried one of those tests many years ago, as part of specialised education (logistics), but only as an example to visualize the IDEA of “group effects”.
If they want FTC to change anything or DO anything, they should preferrably be focusing on that from a realistic viewpoint.
* a description of the problem, not as they see it themselves but as all other people potentially can be able to see it.
* a realistic description of potential solutions to the problem, something other than “we want you to crack down on the whole industry”.
* the whole idea will need to be “balanced” against other interests, e.g. to avoid potential conflicts where the opponent actually has valid arguments.
One reason I’m debating whether I would want to join that team. 🙂 I am on talking terms with a couple of those people. 🙂 Though I certainly wasn’t asked
I’m NOT convinced, like most of them are, that MLM *is* pyramid scheme.
I’ll have to write another blog post on this topic.
MLM’s ARE pyramid schemes which have consumer protections in place.
the difference between MLM and illegal pyramids is that the former have – a product of fair value, no upfront payment for participation, no inventory loading , buy back policies ,income disclosures and no over peddling or false claims .a fair measure of retail helps to prove saleability value of the products.
case law in the US seems to be going in an extreme direction which is NOT reflected in how the FTC or SEC identify pyramid schemes. if amway, nuskin, or any other MLM is put through the legal wrangler in the US today, they may come up FAIL.
MLM is not multilevel direct sales, MLM is multilevel direct sales AND consumption and if the courts are running in an opposite direction , then DSA needs to wake up .
as of today, 12 US states have adopted statutes recognizing reasonable amounts of consumption as retail , and this is a trending legislation .the benefits of MLM to the economy, and as an employment generator, far outweigh the ‘damages’ which are blown out of proportion by career MLM critics.
in it’s 10Q report released yesterday herbalife has updated the status of it’s belgium case:
well , nov 4 is coming up at full speed !
and about the bostick, california case herbalife says :
in the 2013,Q3 earnings call hebalife CEO johnson announced a few more of their housecleaning efforts:
herbalife has already introduced other changes like calling non selling distributors ‘members’, providing a statement of annual growth compensation to every new member, and offering 100% buyback on unsold merchandise, and even the start up kit, along with free return shipping .
we already know that herbalife has kicked out all the lead selling businesses and with all the above changes i just don’t see the FTC or SEC trying to shut down this business.
By renaming it’s discount customers as members , herbalife has positioned itself as a ‘save and consume’ MLM, and this is the argument, they will hope to fly on ,over questions regarding self consumption/retail.
None of that quoted stuff addresses the issue of Herbalife’s generated revenue being overwhelmingly sourced from affiliates (non-retail).
“Non-selling distributors” are still distributors and not retail customers. Call them extraterrestrial frogmen if you want, but if they can earn commissions they are still distributors participating in the income opportunity (affiliates).
If Herbalife truly wanted to offer a legitimate wholesale customer class, all they have to do is create one. But they won’t – because all those “non-selling distributors” are in reality trying to earn money but failing.
Herbalife knows they won’t switch and then with an actual wholesale customer option they can’t pretend otherwise.
In terms of generating retail activity, everything you just quoted would be about as effective as Herbalife changing it’s logo color to orange, printing the labels on their products upside down or changing the company’s name to Efilabreh.
(Ozedit: If you want to write offtopic essays on buying clubs do it elsewhere)
The case is currently too vague for a pyramid scheme case against Herbalife itself, from my point of view. The weakest parts in Herbalife’s defense system were the individual recruitment systems organized by people like Shawn Dahl and Anthony Powell.
What they call people isn’t important. If people join Herbalifee for the purpose of participating in the income opportunity (e.g. signing a distributor agreement, buying distributor kit, etc.), they’re clearly participants.
I don’t know what a “statement about annual growth compensation” is, but previous material have typically been highly misleading.
The 100% buyback haven’t worked earlier. The system is organized so people have to buy from Supervisors rather than from the company itself. So it’s mostly a meaningless rule since it doesn’t work in reality.
@anjali, i dont know who you are but i chanced to read your comments here on this web site and it looks like you have been protecting and acting as a PR person and defending illegal acts of various MLM companies who are draining thousands of crores out of india by cheating in broad day light under the guise of “Business Oppurtunity”
Since you commented regarding the QNET case, i want to ask you specifically on what grounds you have made that statment, when the question has not been even raised in any court yet.
Are you also working in defending QNET SCAM? Are you part of the ring of hi-fi advocates who are cheating various courts in India and helping these “White collared Criminals” to drain money out of INDIA? WHO ARE YOU???
what is the source of your comment regarding QNET?
@anjali, great work at defending Herbalife, I support you.
@gurupreet, I don’t believe in Qnet, I think it’s a scam, but definitely not Herbalife because it has great product results.
Too many cooks spoil the broth, and that’s what happens with MLM companies honestly trying to give common people an opportunity that is much better than a typical job.
MLM/NWM is a great system. In fact some of the best products in the world are available through this system. The traditional system can never deliver this quality at such a reasonable price.
Herbalife is a very ethical company with a great system of doing business. Not everyone is able to understand the system, and they make a mess out of it.
I got great results from the products and continue to use them, and so does my family.