Do DS Domination members actually dropship?
Following on from yesterday’s discussion over whether or not eBay suspended the seller account of a DS Domination member or not, I started to ponder the incident a bit deeper.
What is currently known is that a DS Domination member had their eBay account suspended because eBay were
not comfortable with (the member’s) selling practices or business model, and (felt) they don’t help to promote a positive buying and selling environment.
DS Domination member’s and the company itself maintain that the suspension was not a result of DS Domination membership, but rather due to a failure to follow the company’s dropshipping training and advice.
If DS Domination are indeed warning affiliates that not explicitly following their training and advice, all of it, will result in an eBay account suspension, then that I can accept.
It got me thinking though, what exactly did eBay object to then? Was it the way items were listed, the types of items listed? What exactly was going on here?
We know eBay, by their own admission, have no problem with dropshipping and, as DS Domination members are prompt to point out, plenty of people dropship items to eBay buyers every day without issue.
Hell you can even contact eBay yourself and verify they have no problems with dropshipping, so it’s obviously not that.
…or is it?
I knew the basics of dropshipping, that being the purchase of goods or services from “company A” by a dropshipper, which company A then sends directly to the dropshipper’s customer. Basic like I said, but that’s the gist of it.
Wanting the exact definition of dropshipping however for the purposes of analysis, I went and looked it up:
drop-ship (verb)
1. move (goods) from the manufacturer directly to the retailer without going through the usual distribution channels.
Armed with that I went over to the DS Domination website, where a marketing video informs me that
DS Domination is the first and only platform of its kind that allows the average person to harness the power of multi-billion companies like Amazon, eBay and Wallmart at the push of a button.
Any user can easily create an income within minutes, simply by copy-pasting product information from one company to another.
Fair enough, copy product information from one company, paste it onto another and make money. Got it.
This where I delved even deeper into DS Domination’s training concept and… that’s when things began to fall apart.
For those not familiar with DS Domination’s training, the company’s first tier of training primarily involves sourcing products on Amazon, “copy-pasting” the Amazon product information into an eBay auction listing and marking up the price.
Income is generated when somebody purchases a DS Domination member’s listing, at which point the member buys the product off Amazon and has them ship it out to the eBay customer who purchased the item. The DS Domination member pockets the difference between what they listed the item on eBay for and what Amazon sell the item for.
DS Domination charge $19.95 for this training (which apparently goes into much greater specific detail and methodology), with the idea that this is a member’s introduction to the world of dropshipping.
Functionally I see no issues with this, except that as far as dropshipping goes, it doesn’t really fit the definition of what dropshipping is.
Amazon make some ebook readers but to the best of my knowledge nobody is listing them on eBay. Instead DS Domination members are “copy-pasting” product descriptions on Amazon items that would allow them to introduce a significant enough markup to be worth their while if the item in question sells on eBay.
In this sense Amazon are clearly not the manufacturer of the goods being “copy-pasted” onto eBay, they themselves are retailers.
Amazon.com, Inc. is an American international electronic commerce company with headquarters in Seattle, Washington, United States. It is the world’s largest online retailer.
Amazon source the items from the actual manufacturers and then sell the items at a retail level. DS Domination purchase items from Amazon as retail customers, and then resell the items to their own customers through eBay.
Amazon are the middlemen between the manufacturers and customers, relegating DS Domination members to the role of middle-middlemen.
This is a distinction worth noting for two important reasons.
The first is that if what DS Domination is training its $19.95 members is not actual dropshipping, eBay’s policy on dropshipping bears to relevance to the activities of DS Domination members on the site.
Yes eBay has no problems with dropshipping but, as per the definition of dropshipping, “copy-pasting” product information from a retailer and reselling it on another site is not the same as actual dropshipping from a manufacturer (or wholesaler).
This naturally negates the argument that eBay can’t have a problem with what DS Domination members do on the site because eBay has no problems with dropshipping.
Short of further action or announcements on eBay’s behalf, that’s currently a question nobody appears to have a solid concrete answer to.
In a communication with one of their member’s yesterday, DS Domination claim
As of right now absolutely NO DSD user has been suspended or blocked by eBay for using the Dropshipping model which is perfectly valid by eBay’s own policies.
As long as you follow the training correctly you have no reason to fear about your eBay accounts.
A BehindMLM reader meanwhile sent in the following information, which might suggest otherwise:
Just got off the phone with Ebay support and explained to them that I’m tired of NOT being able to sell my own stuff online because this DS Domination is flooding their site with Amazon products.
They have looked at DS Domination website and I directed them to your blog of the review and they told me, “We are aware of DS Domination and are in the process of investigating, it just takes sometime”.
I’m not a member of DS Domination so I can’t approach eBay with any queries on how DS Domination specifically advises their members “copy-paste” product information from Amazon onto eBay listings.
If any DS Domination members do hear anything from eBay either way on this matter, feel free to provide the information below as a comment.
Personally from eBay’s perspective I can’t see the long-term benefit of gaining a reputation for being more expense than Amazon. And if DS Domination are attempting to create an entire MLM niche that revolves around this concept, then perhaps there’s a bigger issue at play here.
The other important reason that arises from DS Domination member’s reselling rather than dropshipping is on the otherside of the fence with Amazon. Specifically the company’s Terms and Conditions and how that fits into what DS Domination has its members doing on the site.
Under the sub-heading “License and Access”, Amazon’s Terms and Conditions clearly state
Subject to your compliance with these Conditions of Use and your payment of any applicable fees, Amazon or its content providers grant you a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable license to access and make personal and non-commercial use of the Amazon Services.
This license does not include any resale or commercial use of any Amazon Service, or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of any Amazon Service or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.
Additionally, Amazon Prime’s Terms and Conditions contains the following under “Other Limitations”:
Prime members are not permitted to purchase products for the purpose of resale, rental, or to ship to their customers or potential customers using Prime benefits.
So that’s out too…
In both instances, particularly that of regular Amazon’s Terms and Conditions, how is “copy-pasting” Amazon item descriptions into eBay listing not blatantly violating Amazon’s Terms and Conditions?
I apologise in advance if I’m missing something glaringly obvious, but as far as I can see there’s nothing short of an obvious disconnect between actual dropshipping and what DS Domination promote at their $19.95 level.
Looking forward I guess there’s little left to do but adopt a wait and see approach. As far as Amazon goes, short of policing eBay themselves and trying to connect listings to Amazon accounts (which I don’t realistically see them doing), it would seem the ball is entirely in eBay’s court.
Was ProfessorX’s eBay seller account suspension an isolated unrelated to DS Domination, or is there something bigger at play here?
Slightly offset viewpoint… The term “dropship” basically means something a little more than the pure definition above, Oz.
From what I’ve been able to piece together, dropship refers to the act of a distributor (or manufacturer) shipping to an individual, let’s call B, that was NOT the original buyer A.
Instead, A had listed the item for sale (without actually having the product, but was assured that distributor/manufacturer has it) A sold the product and get the money, paid the dropshipper the lower price so the dropshipper can ship the product to B, and A pockets the difference between the price he sold for and the actual price he paid the distributor.
While I don’t see anything “obviously illegal” in this practice, there are at least three major issues:
a) is it against the policy of the listing site (i.e. eBay)
TENTATIVE ANSWER: apparently not, but there are exceptions
b) is it against the policy of the distributor (i.e. Amazon or whatever source the products are from)
TENTATIVE ANSWER: apparently YES, there are problems according to Amazon’s TOS.
c) is there a FUTURE doing this?
Frankly, with common search engines such as InvisibleHand (getinvisiblehand(dot)com which searches eBay, Amazon, and other online retailers) such practice ONLY works for a limited time.
That’s probably the reason why the DSD advice is NOT to list the exact model number to make it harder for such search engines to reveal that the eBay price is not the lowest price.
And if the listing does not sell, then the eBay lister is out of the listing fees. And if you list multiple items this can add up. Not to mention you have to go through dozens of items to find a suitable item for listing, and even with automated listing software this ain’t easy.
And how much can you earn? A few bucks if at all per order? Minus the listing fee and your margin is minimal, unless you somehow manage to score the expensive items CHEAP, and/or make it up on QUANTITY.
And there’s always the danger that the dropshipper will cut out the middleman and get on eBay or Amazon themselves. There are already dozens and dozens of companies selling stuff directly out of Hong Kong on eBay and Amazon.
What does that say about DSD’s future? I personally say bleak. What does DSD members say though? Support your answers with some evidence please.
Amazon is neither? And “buyer A” certainly isn’t a distributor or manufacturer.
How is this dropshipping?
Let’s say I am selling a… fancy flashlight on eBay for $20. “150 lumens”. You bought it.
I don’t actually have the flashlight. Instead, it’s actually on Amazon for $15 with free shipping.
So I take your $20, pay Amazon $15, gave your address as ship-to, and sat back and enjoy my $5 profit.
That’s dropship… using Amazon.
Isn’t that reselling? You purchased something at a retail level and resold it, only you did it in reverse.
Reserve reselling?
I still can’t get over Amazon being neither a manufacturer or a wholesaler. They’re a retailer…
To get all Dawn Wright-Olivares up in this, if someone gives me money to buy a hamburger, I walk up to a random guy in the street holding a big mac, pay him money for the burger and then tell the dude to go give it to the guy who gave me money – did I just dropship?
Obviously if I bought the burger from McDonalds I did because they manufacture it, but the random on the street (Amazon) didn’t.
Essentially, yes. You are acting as a reseller… but retailing is reselling… to an extent. (And yes, you did dropship that burger)
Which is why I pointed out potential problem #2: does the “shipper” (Amazon in the example) allow their stuff to be “resold”? A dropshipper expects this, Amazon does NOT. And abusing prime shipping for this is a major No-no.
But I think we got off our mission… Is DSD a MLM? 🙂
And that means DS Domination members are reselling, not dropshipping. At least at the $19.95 Amazon –> eBay “copy paste” level.
By definition you can’t use Amazon to dropship!
They pay out over 10 levels or whatever it is so for sure.
Here I was more interested in exploring eBay’s decision. A big question mark emerges if you accept that DS Domination members aren’t dropshipping from Amazon. It kills the “eBay has no problem with dropshipping so they love DS Domination” argument.
DS Domination themselves are running around telling everyone that the $19.95 is about dropshipping. Which if it’s not, then that might be a case of misrepresentation?
I’m just spitballing here from yesterday’s discussion. It’s an interesting topic to pull apart.
I’m on the fence on just how “shady” DSD’s lessons are.
The comp plan, on the other hand…
I can’t believe this is even a discussion. Dropshipping is a totally legitimate business model (yes, even in the reseller model). Just because one person broke ebay rules (while a member of DSD), DSD is now a questionable business. Really?
This ProfessorX is a ponzi scamming fool and you are taking his word as gospel! Check out the guys history. He is not to be trusted at all!
Strawman arguments there. Dropshipping is a totally legit business model. However eBay might have a problem with reselling, especially if it’s from Amazon, who most certainly do not allow reselling and/or dropshipping.
DS Domination don’t market their $19.95 training as reselling, it’s marketed as dropshipping – which given that by definition it isn’t, is potentially misleading.
How so?
Well eBay doesn’t have a problem with dropshipping, but they might have a problem with DS Domination’s reselling through Amazon. Let’s hope the company’s members don’t find find out the hard way.
Interested conversation here on the Amazon forum about DSD.
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=2410537
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/technology/27amazon.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Interesting this was written in 2007. Titled: Sold on eBay, Shipped by Amazon.com
You don’t know what caused his eBay suspension. It may or may not be DSD related. Don’t rule it out based on your personal assumptions “it can’t possibly be DSD related”. I haven’t ruled it in, you shouldn’t rule it out.
To add a quick note to the discussion about what drop shipping is or isn’t… I get what Oz is saying here in the “pure” definition. However there are several if not hundreds of companies out there you can buy product from sell it on Ebay or wherever.
Many Drop shippers buy inventory from whole sale companies and then have it shipped from there. The whole seller is also NOT the manufacturer.
…and just to add fuel to the fire – There were hundreds of other people out there doing what DSD teaches long before Roger put it into a training program. Many Affilaite marketers and Ebay sellers also sell or teach training on “how to” do what DSD does.
Look for “How to sell on Ebay” on affiliate product sites. Personally I think it should be a stand alone affiliate product training and not a monthly program but that’s just how I roll. – Happy Selling!
Funny rant you have going. As pointed out on the Amazon forum this has been going on forever on Ebay and it is approved for sellers to resell items from other companies. That in fact is the largest part of Ebay sales.
I have dealt with top sellers for many years and most of them are doing it, reselling and using another company to ship to the customers.
What is the problem with over a thousand people in DS Domination doing this it would take no investigation what so ever to discover flaws for the Ebay company. They (Ebay)are making their fees and seem to be happy with it.
If you know your market you know who the wholesalers are and it is easy to spot their products on line. Amazon does not want you taking the available information and using it for competitors profit. They always seem fine with the products moving out, as do the Amazon sellers I have had conversations with.
It’s funny that you bring this up. One of the members did contact me a while back to see if I was interested.
I checked out the initial video to see what it was all about. I know nothing about drop shipping but as I watched the initial presentation I just wasn’t sold on the idea. I had so many questions in mind.
But anyway I literally just googled that affiliate who broke the TOS. I won’t be surprised if others seo for his name now.
That’s the problem though K.Chang. It’s not hard to see why he was banned from eBay. Remember this is a guy active in ponzis and well versed in the art of blaming others for his ill. Just go read his posts on MMG and you’ll see immediately why he was banned (and many others including me have pointed this out):
1. He is using someone else’s account, not his own. eBay does not like this.
2. He listed a ton of items that are often sold by counterfeiters with EXACT model #s and brand names. This is a HUGE red flag, and DSD specifically teaches NOT to do this precisely because eBay targets such sellers.
3. He listed items in categories, with titles and specific wording that eBay looks at (like all of his titles were ‘NEW! Brand Name Model Name’ As a very experienced eBay seller, this is a HUGE red flag to ebay.
4. He posted over a hundred of these listings – all in the same pattern in same categories.
We all pointed out as experienced eBay sellers that these are issues that eBay has ALWAYS frowned upon. DSD teaches NOT to do this as well. To blame DSD for this guy’s problems is like blaming Walmart for Black Friday shoppers beating up each other.
(Ozedit: derail attempt removed. The definition of dropshipping in this article was sourced from the dictionary.)
Absolutely correct. Prime is NOT to be used for dropshipping. Amazon says so, and DSD says so (they clear this up for members and non members alike!). So there’s no problem there at all.
(Ozedit: offtopic derail attempts removed)
Wait…dropshipping is still a viable business? Who would ever have thunk it.
Interesting and educational discussion happening here.
One of my major red flags about DSD is that Ken Russo, one of the major Ponzi pimps for over 10 years is jumping on board this program. As the old saying goes, “You are known by the company you keep,” and if you are DSD this is one person that will taint your company with his involvement.
Now Ken may be finally trying to clean up his act and stop promoting Ponzi’s, but I’ll believe that after about 6 months or so. He is also promoting a new online dating service as part of his turning over a new leaf in 2014. Somehow, Ken Russo as Cupid just doesn’t cut it with me.
As for DSD, their biggest issue is not falling into the illegal pyramid format that the FTC does not like. And of course as previously mentioned, what if you sell it on eBay but Amazon is out of stock?
If it happens now and then I can see it not being a big issue, but if it happens a lot, you will lose customers and I think eBay would be all over you for false advertising, or at least they should be.
It is going to be interesting to see how Amazon responds to this practice since they are currently looking into it. I think Amazon is the key. They specifically state, as Oz has mentioned, and I quote:
Clearly the DS Domination member’s and the company itself maintain that the suspension was not a result of DS Domination membership, but rather due to a failure to follow the company’s drop shipping training and advice.
If DS Domination are indeed warning affiliates that not explicitly following their training and advice, all of it, will result in an eBay account suspension, then that I can accept.
I have just joined DS, and I am not a affiliated so I am not trying to sale any thing.
I can tell you this, that your statement about DS abusing prime is wrong, they infactly tell there members not to use prime but to only look for items for $35 and above since those come with 2 day free shipping even if you don’t have a prim membership.
What statement? The article merely quoted Amazon Prime’s T&C.
I used to do DSD but the listing fees and time spent hunting and listing was not worth it, made about £20 a week with 2 hours a day. So i set up my own store dropshipping directly.
I have had more success with this than on ebay. Stock is also automated using software from droptec which adds new products and auto sends orders to my warehouse 🙂
very interesting discusion. thanks for the read.
what is the outcome of DSD?
Co-founder just bailed, what’s left of the company itself are attempting to launch v2.0 shortly.
THIS IS HILARIOUS. The entire premise that Amazon is a RETAILER is ridiculous. They are drop shippers themselves.
how do you think they got started? they didn’t buy up product, they sold it and then had it shipped.
This is one giant whore pissing and moaning over a newbie stealing tricks…. Ironic… and boohoo.
bottom line is buyer beware. if you arent smart enough to check amazon for the same item you search for on ebay…. then who cares if you paid a little bit more.
Sure, amazon stocks SOME things, but they do the exact same thing every day. THATS smart business.
BTW, I am not in DSD but searched for info on it after hearing about it today.
OZ has wrongfully labeled Amazon as some saintly end of the line retailer. anyone selling anything is a retailer if the end user buys it from you.
how you get the product is irrelevant short of illegal actions.
…making them a retailer.
Hur dur.
Careful Oz…you’re dealing with a mind there. (TJ)
Are you kidding me ???
Amazon has some of the largest and most technologically advanced warehouses (fulfillment centers) in the US, enabling it to offer same day delivery and even same hour delivery in some cities.
NONLINK: static.businessinsider.com/image/551193beeab8eac9225109c8-1200/image.jpg
Since they use themselves as a dropshipper (i.e. sold by Amazon), you’re arguing against yourself, right?