Pro U & Automatic Millionaire: The $39980 opportunity

140 Comments on “Pro U & Automatic Millionaire: The $39980 opportunity”

#1

M_Norway

Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:24 pm  M_Norway(Q)

December 14. 2010:
CarbonCopyPro had 708 active profiles (members) after the break with WMI.

February 14. 2011 (2 months later):
211 of the 708 members have quit. In the course of 2 months it has quit 3.4 members per day among the original members – the “founding members” – or 100 members per month.

Current statistics February 25. 2011:
221 have quit, 487 are still among “the founding members”.

The statistics do not account for new members who have been enlisted in the period, but the Pro U has probably no more than 600 members worldwide.

Source (in Norwegian and English):
http://faraosgravkammer.blogspot.com/2010/12/nedtellingen-har-begynt.html
“CarbonCopyPro – the countdown has begun”

Note:
708 profiles also includes the founders and leaders, and a few profiles that belongs to the company itself (not a person or member).



#2

How?

Feb 26th, 2011 at 6:57 am  How?(Q)

How did you find this, Norway?



#3

D. F. Halstrom

Feb 26th, 2011 at 8:05 am  D. F. Halstrom(Q)

Pure unadulterated greed.



#4

M_Norway

Feb 26th, 2011 at 11:34 am  M_Norway(Q)

@How:
Membership lists in the “Pharaoh’s Tomb” is probably taken out by a script. All new members receive their own profile in oneyearplan.net/userprofile/.

He has used a script to count the number of active profiles in December 2010, right after the cooperation with WMI ended. Then he runs the same type of script once a day, which counts the number of profiles that have been inactive.

It is possible to click on icons and check each member’s landing page, if anyone wants to check this.
Examples (lines 14 and 22):
* Jay Kubassek: oneyearplan.net/jaykubassek/
* Mike Dillard: oneyearplan.net/mdillard/

The list is arranged alphabetically. You will see the profile name in the status bar of your browser if you hover over an icon.



#5

Oz

Mar 9th, 2011 at 2:04 pm  Oz(Q)

Just a heads up, last night I received a legal threat from Carbon Copy Pro regarding the membership information numbers provided above;

[ACTION REQUIRED] Regarding: Inaccurate and False Information Regarding PRO U and Automatic Millionaire International

Dear BEHINDMLM.com Author

The information you are providing on your blog is inaccurate in many respects, particularly concerning ongoing membership information for our company and its products.

While we appreciate your interest in our company and its products, as you can understand, we cannot as a company allow inaccurate information to be provided to the public.

We stand by the quality of our offerings, and therefore welcome all opinions with respect to them, positive or negative. However, the false ‘membership data’ is not an opinion – it is presented as a series of statements of fact, and is simply wrong in every respect.

Inaccurate statements of fact also are not protected under free speech laws, and rise to the level of libel and/or slander, depending on how presented. All statistics referring to membership information of PRO must be removed from your site immediately, or we will escalate to legal action.

Thank you for your cooperation.

—

Corporate Compliance
CarbonCopyPRO

I informed them I wasn’t the author of the information published and that if they have a problem they should take it up with the respective source.



#6

B.F.

Mar 9th, 2011 at 8:29 pm  B.F.(Q)

I can confirm that I have never received anything from CarbonCopyPro regarding my blog Pharao’s Tomb. This blog has been operative since June 2010, and it might seem strange that CCP attacks this blog just 2 weeks after your post.

The obvious reason is that the reputation of CCP in Norway is already too damaged, and that Kubassek & Co. must know how the legal treaths from WMI Scandinavia against me were ridiculed in Norwegian press. The only thing they will obtain by treathening me is massive publicity which eventually will harm their business even more.

If lawyer Hellerøy did a stupid thing, CCP is beating this by threathening a person for citing a source instead of going after the source itself.

However, I can also confirm that the member list is not complete. I have since discovered a small number of active members (less than ten) not represented in the “churchyard” here:
http://faraosgravkammer.blogspot.com/2010/12/nedtellingen-har-begynt.html
The main picture is still the same, in less than three months 33 percent of the active members have left Carbon Copy Pro.

OZ, you have my e-mail address, can you forward the treaths to me and to the journalist Sverre Rørvik Nilsen: sverre.rorvik.nilsen@e24.no

My message to the Jay Kubassek and Aaron Parkinson is: Bring your best lawyers and come to Norway and sue me! It will be a big pleasure to beat you in court and get your stinking “business” exposed to the whole world.



#7

M_Norway

Mar 9th, 2011 at 11:47 pm  M_Norway(Q)

If they believe information about the members is not correct, they may well post a correction here? It’s smarter to fix things directly than to complain that something is wrong. I have little respect for the legal threats if they are not justified – if people have not attempted to correct the information before they come up with legal threats.

The information is taken from the blog “Pharaoh’s Tomb” – as it was presented there. Remaining active profiles 14 December 2010 was 708, not “thousands of members” as they like to give the impression of.

They may like to introduce other figures and sources if they believe the numbers are wrong? I’ve been very careful to check that my disclosure of information has been correctly performed.

A: I specified dates and times:

December 14. 2010:CarbonCopyPro had 708 active profiles (members) after the break with WMI.February 14. 2011 (2 months later):211 of the 708 members have quit. In the course of 2 months it has quit 3.4 members per day among the original members – the “founding members” – or 100 members per month.

B: I specified “new members not included”:

The statistics do not account for new members who have been enlisted in the period, but the Pro U has probably no more than 600 members worldwide.

C: I specified the source:

Source (in Norwegian and English):http://faraosgravkammer.blogspot.com/2010/12/nedtellingen-har-begynt.html“CarbonCopyPro – the countdown has begun”

D: I offered a method for others to check for themselves, if a profile was active or not:

It is possible to click on icons and check each member’s landing page, if anyone wants to check this.

I made an estimate for the number of members:

… Pro U has probably no more than 600 members worldwide.

It’s probably completely correct to make an estimate of the number of members, and post the numbers that I calculated? This figure has not been presented as “facts” or “exact numbers”, I have simply presented it as an “estimated number”.

The legal advisers have very little they can criticize here. I do not really know why they send a demand for that information to be removed? Legal threats have little effect if they are poorly justified. A good adviser should advise against pursuing a bad cause.

Why are these figures so “dangerous”? This is a completely neutral and accurate information that might be of interest to many – that can help them take accurate decisions. Low membership numbers can be interpreted both positively and negatively.

CCPro / PRO U:
Please give us the correct numbers if you believe that the figures I have quoted are not correct? Please give us sources so that we can check things ourselves.



#8

B.F.

Mar 10th, 2011 at 3:33 am  B.F.(Q)

BTW, I have a list of more than 8000 inactive profiles too. The active profiles from December 14th are just collected from this list of about 8800 profiles. This means that 95 % of the profiles I have collected are inactive.

The list is NOT complete, but it is a lot easier to locate the active profiles then the inactive ones, which makes me believe the percentage of inactive profiles are even higher.

I know that many CCP members struggle seriously to terminate their memberships, and there are a lot of stories about people that eventually had to shut down their bank account to prevent CCP from charging the monthly fee. The actual number of real participants is then believed to be even lower.

In other words: This pyramid has collapsed completely as there is no way to earn money with CCP without signing up for the new Automatic Millionaire program.



#9

Oz

Mar 10th, 2011 at 11:27 am  Oz(Q)

Interesting that you haven’t received any correspondence B.F.

In terms of forwarding I’ll keep you up to date if I receive any more threats but so far what I published here is the entirety of what I’ve recieved from Carbon Copy Pro compliance.

I’ve forwarded a copy of the email to Sverre Nilsen as you suggested.

@M_Norway

As interesting as it would be, I doubt Carbon Copy are going to provide membership numbers (active or otherwise) themselves.

If the numbers were positive you can bet they’d be all over CCPRO’s marketing material ‘now more then XXXXX active members worldwide!’ etc.

Obviously, whatever the actual numbers are, this is not the case.



#10

D. F. Halstrom

Mar 11th, 2011 at 2:31 pm  D. F. Halstrom(Q)

Oz: last night I received a legal threat from Carbon Copy Pro…

That was a really pathetic scare tactic. Their Corporate Compliance is first rate 😛

MLM / Direct Sales Compliance are meant to ensure that a given company’s members comply with rules, regulations and laws. Carbon Copy Pro actually expects you, someone not associated with their company, to comply.



#11

Bryan

Apr 10th, 2011 at 9:24 pm  Bryan(Q)

Ok wow where to start? There is so much misleading and wrong about this article, it almost makes me sick to my stomach. Please read this and hear me out as somebody from the “inside.”

First off. The article first begins speaking of Automatic Millionaire ( referred to as AMI from now on) It says that it will take a 39K investment to maximize your profits.

Allow me to break this down as simple as I can. Yes, becoming a “Black” AMI affiliate will cost you….and it is not 39K. Also, the Black level is at the top of the tier of AMI. Black is not where most people begin (unless you are a millionaire already), but rather a place you will end up.

What I mean by this is that you do not invest this kind of money until you are able to. You come in at a lower level and build yourself from there. AMI is completely optional and is not required to begin with Carbon Copy Pro (referred to as CCP here on out.) In fact, most people come in at the basic AMI affiliate level for $199 dollars and collect a 10% commision on all AMI sales.

Again another fallacy of this article is its break down of the different levels of AMI. ALL LEVELS COLLECT A 40% COMMISSION! What this means is that regardless of your level of AMI, you will earn the same commission at each level.

Now, here is a question. What opportunity out there allows you to earn over $19,000 for a SINGLE sale? None. Remember the goal is to build up to the black level to earn this kind of money. This isn’t the place you start ( unless you can throw down almost 25K) but rather, a place for you to reach once you have built your business.

Two sales at the Black level and you have paid your initial investment. Most people at the Black level are millionaires because of the CCP system. OK enough of AMI.

The article also explains how there is no residual income. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG in every possible way! Remember, AMI is an optional high paying income stream, but it is NOT the primary.

You can become a PRO member for as little as $395. Thats it. This gives you full access to the tools, training, support, and marketing system. With this small investment (ignore AMI for now, as you can choose to not even market it) you can make some serious residual income.

For every sale you bring in of PRO, you will receive a one time $150 payment, PLUS a $30 dollar/month payment. So, you do the math. You make 100 sales, and you have generated $15,000….plus $3,000 coming in as a residual income EVERY month!

This article focuses all on the high cost of becoming an AMI affiliate. AMI is great, don’t get me wrong, but AMI is not the meat and potatoes of Carbon Copy Pro.

Yes it costs a lot to invest in AMI, but remember, you start low and build to a high level when you have the money to invest 25K. It ticks me off when people on the outside of the business only show in part what we are about.

To be honest with you, when i came to PRO, I began as a basic AMI affiliate, making 10% on AMI sales. For $395, you can earn an amazing income like none other on the internet.

Once your business has grown you can choose to invest into AMI and make some serious cash. Here is a way of thinking at it. When a young man begins his working career, is he likely to invest 25K into a mutual fund or retirement plan? Most likely not. But as he continues to work and earn money at a smaller level, he then can invest greatly into his future.

AMI is also like this. Even without AMI, CCP is an awesome business choice due to the fact that the residual income payments can be so high. You have to view things from an objective view, which clearly was’t done by the person who wrote this article.

Lastly, CCP is not even MLM. MLM means you collect off the sales of those below you. This is not how we operate. In fact, I could rise higher in the hierarchy than the person who referred me to CCP. The growth of your business is entirely up to you. You control what level you come in at, and you control your investments.

So, in summary, this article has blown Carbon Copy Pro and Automatic Millionaire way out of proportion and is filled with almost no true content. I do admire the fact that you have done your homework; I was the same way before I became involved with CCP.

So a small investment of $395 can absolutely change your life forever. It can give you the lifestyle you dream of. But YOU are the one who make it happen with the CCP system. A building is built from the foundation first, then the towers reach the sky. This article fails in showing its readers the true nature of this business and has a “top, down” perspective.



#12

K. Chang

Apr 11th, 2011 at 1:31 am  K. Chang(Q)

So it’s $395, not $495? 🙂 Why did you also wrote $195?

Also, you wrote

In fact, most people come in at the basic AMI affiliate level for $199 dollars and collect a 10% commision on all AMI sales. Again another fallacy of this article is its break down of the different levels of AMI. ALL LEVELS COLLECT A 40% COMMISSION!

It can’t be 10% and 40% at the same time.

I think you need a gut check, or perhaps, a brain check.



#13

M_Norway

Apr 11th, 2011 at 6:05 am  M_Norway(Q)

@Bryan
CCPro alone (without AMI, without WMI) claims to have an average income of $200 per month – according to their own disclaimers. Even this amount is exaggerated in the terms of “average income” (counting ALL members). It may be true if you limit it to “active members” (not counting members that doesn’t sell anything within a timeframe). It doesn’t count the expenses either. An average consultant will use far more than $200 per month in marketing costs.

If you recruit a new member (paying $395) in a month:
* You earn $150 in commission
* He pays $395 in expenses
* The two of you have an average income of -$122.50
Monthly fee or other expenses not included. I doubt you will have any net income at all in this example. Most of the consultants will also sell BlackBox at a reduced price. Some will give it away for free (pay the expenses themselves, to get a new member in their own downline).

The average income will always be below zero, if you count ALL members. It’s just a redistribution of money between members, or “pushing money upwards within a system”. It’s not sale, it’s recruitment – with some products or services involved to make the system look legal. This is more like a pyramid scheme than a sustainable business model. At least it WAS more like a pyramid scheme in 2009, when I checked.

WMI, the former partner of CCPro, was declared a pyramid in Norway 2 weeks ago. The decision would normally have applied both to CCPro and WMI, but it only applied to WMI since the partnership ended in december 2010. A quote from the decission:

Gaming Board has understood that WMI no longer has a partnership with Carbon Copy Pro. Our assessment therefore includes only the concept of Wealth Masters International

I believe they got between 400 and 500 members in Norway before they collapsed (mostly inactive members)
– in a population of 4.7 million people
– from january 2009 to december 2010

Overestimating the popularity?

With this small investment (ignore AMI for now, as you can choose to not even market it) you can make some serious residual income. For every sale you bring in of PRO, you will receive a one time $150 payment, PLUS a $30 dollar/month payment. So, you do the math. You make 100 sales, and you have generated $15,000….plus $3,000 coming in as a residual income EVERY month!

100 sales within which timeframe? And remember that most of them have quit within 3 to 6 months? Don’t do the math, it was the math that got you tricked into this.

Lena Bjorna had actually 2-300 members in her downline in late 2010 – personally enrolled members (according to a former WMI-member, stated in a forum-thread). So yes, it is/was possible.



#14

B.F.

Apr 11th, 2011 at 3:34 pm  B.F.(Q)

Bryan: Even without AMI, CCP is an awesome business choice due to the fact that the residual income payments can be so high.

OK, let us imagine CCP can be a “business” without AMI. The problem then is that CCP has no actual product to sell besides the instructions about how to promote CCP and AMI. This means that only a small percentage of the members will earn money at all as it is impossible for everyone to recruit three or more members.

Bryan:So a small investment of $395 can absolutely change your life forever.

CarbonCopyPro was launched in 2007 as a recruitment system for Wealth Masters International with promises of Lifetime residual incomes. In 2010 this partnership was terminated, and the “lifetime residual income” suddenly disappeared for those who decided to follow CCP after the divorce.

By studying the history behind CCP, a forecast can be made:

– Global Prosperity Group lasted for about 10 years.
– Liberty League lasted for 8 years
– Wealth Masters International was in business 5 years before being declared as a pyramid scheme
– Carbon Copy Pro (the original concept) lasted for 3 years before they had to start from scratch again

How long is the concept Pro U/AMA going to stay alive?

Bryan:
In fact, most people come in at the basic AMI affiliate level.

In a legal business most people come in as retail customers. Do you actually have any?



#15

Matthew K

Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:51 am  Matthew K(Q)

I have read this thread as well as lightly skimming over others. I see that a lot of negative toward the companies mentioned, however what I don’t see, is a solution.

So what are you recommending?



#16

Oz

Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:49 pm  Oz(Q)

@Bryan

Allow me to break this down as simple as I can. Yes, becoming a “Black” AMI affiliate will cost you….and it is not 39K.

The $39,980 figure quoted is from the combined cost of the Automatic Millionaire. To achieve ‘elite affiliate’ status within the PRO-U program you must purchase a subscription to AMI.

As far as I can tell it’s impossible to generate 300 PRO-U credits solely via PRO-U’s courses (of which the high end ones are still not even available for sale).

Given they aren’t available you need to go black in AMI to maximise your commission payout. This comes in at $39,980.

AMI is completely optional and is not required to begin with Carbon Copy Pro

This article isn’t about Carbon Copy Pro, it’s about PRO U and Automatic Millionaire. As it currently stands, a subscription to AMI is required if you want to maximise your PRO-U and AMI commissions as the only way to generate 300 PRO-U credits is via a black AMI subscription ($39,980).

In fact, most people come in at the basic AMI affiliate level for $199 dollars and collect a 10% commision on all AMI sales.

And are they even remotely succesful?

Would you buy a $5 icecream from someone who’s never tasted it but claims it’s the best tasting icecream in the world?

I wouldn’t. So why on earth would I buy into an educational program someone swears by if they themselves haven’t tried it. Whether they can afford to or not is inconsequential. Infact if the reason they hadn’t tried it was because they couldn’t afford it then I’d be noting the huge vested interest this person has in getting me to purchase the product.

That alone would be enough to turn me off the sale.

Again another fallacy of this article is its break down of the different levels of AMI. ALL LEVELS COLLECT A 40% COMMISSION!

I don’t believe I ever mentioned otherwise. The affliliate levels mentioned relate to PRO-U and are taken directly from the PRO-U website.

For every sale you bring in of PRO, you will receive a one time $150 payment, PLUS a $30 dollar/month payment.

Source? This is not mentioned in the above link regarding either the PRO-U or Automatic Millionaire opportunities.

It ticks me off when people on the outside of the business only show in part what we are about.

You know what ticks me off? People writing about Carbon Copy Pro and harping on about how hard done by the opportunity is in articles that were never about Carbon Copy Pro.

This article is about PRO-U and Automatical Millionaire, both of which are marketed seperately to Carbon Copy Pro.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion and adding your viewpoint but this article was never written as an analysis of Carbon Copy Pro and for the most part your comments are misleading and irrelevant.

Furthermore, this article has been looked over by Corporate Compliance at Carbon Copy Pro and the only thing they sought to correct were third party statements relating to the membership numbers of Carbon Copy Pro.

They cited no complaints as to the accuracy or validity of the information offered in the article itself. You can’t get much more of an (unofficial) endorsement than that.



#17

Oz

Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:00 pm  Oz(Q)

@Matthew K

So what are you recommending?

That’s one primary difference with BehindMLM that I strive to achieve.

I’m not simply reviewing MLM opportunities whilst pushing others as many websites already do this (the line between ‘review’ and ‘marketing’ is extremely blurred in MLM).

The information here is designed to be used as a resource. It’s not a guide nor personal reccomendation from me as to what businesses you should or shouldn’t join.

I do from time to time offer up my opinion as a conclusion on opportunities but that’s purely that, an opinion. Given the lack of bias (I don’t belong to, promote nor reccomend any MLM company), you can be rest assured that my opinion is solely a reflection of the research I myself have conducted into the opportunity being analysed.



#18

M_Norway

Apr 15th, 2011 at 7:07 pm  M_Norway(Q)

Inactive member profiles now redirects to their upline? Or at least most of them do, redirecting 8,000 pages do take some time.

M_Norway: December 14. 2010:CarbonCopyPro had 708 active profiles (members) after the break with WMI.

Their inactive members were previously shown as “This page is inactive. Continue.” They now redirects to active pages, I believe it is to the closest active member in their upline.

They don’t like people to see that most of their members have quit long time ago, or something?

April 14th 2011:
276 out of 708 members (39 percent) have quit within 4 months (December 14th 2010 to April 14th 2011). According to previously stated sources.



#19

M_Norway

Apr 16th, 2011 at 6:12 am  M_Norway(Q)

Confidence is high that Carbon Copy Pro will have created almost 100 Millionaires before Christmas.

Gregory James Kennedy, World Games Inc.



#20

M_Norway

Apr 21st, 2011 at 7:03 am  M_Norway(Q)

I wonder why the company still allows for marketing in Norway?
They have already suffered great losses due to their business here in 2009 and 2010, yet they still allow it to continue? There are still many losses in store that can be initiated here, when the condition is stabilized slightly in the pyramid-case against WMI. We’re almost there now.

They lost the “Battle for the Internet” in 2009, right in the middle of their most important marketing campaign in Norway. It ended as usual: Jay Kubassek in the mud (he forgot to be the bigger person and walk away). Well, it was actually the company that ended in the mud. He was never there to be the bigger person. I don’t understand this tactic very well? You can’t just “walk away” on the Internet, pretending to be a bigger person. You can only give an impression of “not being there”? He surely “wasn’t there” in many terms of the phrase.

The Battle of the Internet
Forums, blogs and news that mentioned CarbonCopyPro as a pyramid scheme had at least all the top 4 matches in the search results (* sources). The consultants in Norway decided to remove the word “CarbonCopyPro” from websites and advertisements in January 2010.

Member flee
It was also here that we initiated the member flee from the company. It arose when the tactic to Per Gunnar Hoem’s downline was successful. They chose to market WMI directly, without CCPro – and found that sales increased. This happened in February 2010. Sales continued to rise for several months, but it decreased in October 2010 due to other circumstances (WMI’s pyramid issue).

The company’s poor performance in 2010 is mainly caused by events that happened here in Norway, events that have also affected other parts of the market. Yet they still continue? They only have a few consultants left here marketing towards the local market, and the local market is practically dead – but they haven’t withdrawn completely from this destructive market? I measure “poor performance” in more than just the current income.

* sources (in Norwegian):

Forums and blogs (top 4 in 2009 and 2010):
http://www.webforumet.no/forum/generell-business/4127-carboncopypro.html (hijacking their own thread)
http://www.glabladet.no/2009/05/carboncopypro-ferdig-hjemmebusiness-paa-1-2-3/ (hijacking their own marketing)
10min.no/penger/carboncopypro-pengemaskin-eller-svindel
yousnutt.blogspot.com/2009/11/carbon-copy-pro-et-genialt-system-for.html

Example of news:
http://www.aftenposten.no/pengenedine/article3291989.ece
Most news were “General warnings”, mentioning Carbon Copy Pro and some other companies as “companies in the grey zone”. After January 2010 most news focused more on WMI than CCPro. A list of the news (in Norwegian) can be found at “Pharaoh’s Tomb” – faraosgravkammer.blogspot.com/2010/10/medieomtale-av-ccp-og-wmi.html



#21

K. Chang

Apr 21st, 2011 at 1:11 pm  K. Chang(Q)

Admitting defeat would look bad.

TVI Express is the same way: you won’t find a SINGLE bit of negative news on their website, even stuff that have GREAT impact.

Solid Trust Pay tossed them to the curb a whole year ago, but it’s STILL listed as a payment method on their website. Not a SINGLE word about how governments world over are investigating or suing them, or how their members have been jailed in China, South Africa, and so on.

Only positive testimonials, most of which are out of date and many are obviously duplicate or fraudulent.



#22

M_Norway

Apr 28th, 2011 at 9:59 am  M_Norway(Q)

@Bryan
You and your money must have been very welcome when you joined this? 🙂

My estimate in February seems to have been too “kind”. They don’t seem to have more than max 2-300 “real” members now (worldwide), even if they have more members in their list.

M_Norway: Current statistics February 25. 2011:221 have quit, 487 are still among “the founding members”.The statistics do not account for new members who have been enlisted in the period, but the Pro U has probably no more than 600 members worldwide.

Why? Many members will continue as members for several months after they quit, because they continue to have income from their downline. They do not terminate their membership immidiately when they quit.

This new estimate is based on information from a former member (in 2010), and the number of guests in “Founders Visionary Call” in March (112 guests). I don’t believe more than half of the members will miss an important call? The estimate applies only to Carbon Copy Pro Marketing, not to Pro U and AMI.

CCPro / Pro U / AMI:
I will adjust this estimate if you provide us with more accurate figures.

“Serve Entrepeneurs in 203 countries”?
Earlier they stated “Represented in 150 countries” and even “Members in xx countries”. Now they have increased the number of countries to cover almost all countries in the world, but they don’t seem to have members in most of these countries?



#23

Ex-CCPro

Jun 10th, 2011 at 9:07 am  Ex-CCPro(Q)

Its difficult to find info on Aaron PArkinson leaving CCPro. Most google searches end in “post deleted” or “post removed” or “user banned”

Anyway here is something!

http://www.ripoffreport.com/internet-fraud/aaron-parkinson/aaron-parkinson-pro-u-affiliat-aa6d7.htm

Aaron Parkinson – Walks Away From PROU SCAM!

Aaron Parkinson, an Internet Marketing mastermind, has finally found his conscience and walked away from PROU and the David Bach “Automatic Millionaire SCAM”

Carbon Copy Pro “is now dead because they killed their reputation” company now known as “PRO U” is going to die and it is going to die fast.

Jay Kubassek’s official story about Aaron Parkinson leaving PROU was that he needed a break and was stepping down.

THIS WAS A LIE! “Consider The Source”

Aaron Parkinson “The Truth”

The real reason became clear early in the development of PRO U. Aaron did not believe in the affiliate
marketing concept or business model and believed that their former product line and business model was far superior to David Bach’s offering.

He was 100% right in his thinking. David Bach’s automatic millionaire is a product you can buy for $9.99 at your local bookstore that tells you in 80 pages what you already know… “Save more and spend less” How much should you be charged to read this single quote? MyProU.com thought that the price tag should be $1,895.00.

Also reported from an inside source is that Aaron stated “David Bach is impossible to work with” and “We need to get out now, before we lose face with our marketers”

It is also rumored by inside sources that when you mention Aarons name Jay replies… “I don’t want to hear his name moving forward.” OUCH! Nice way to treat a guy who helped plant your face in the limelight.

AUTOMATIC MILLIONAIRE was the biggest hype of any product-line I have ever witnessed on the Internet.

This is my definition of squeezing your clients dry. They told their company of over 1000 members to buy this garbage… in less than 4 months AutoMatic Millionaire and Pro U is now imploding. They have less than 100 members in ProU and this will continue to decline.

This is not a bad decision… This is BAD BUSINESS. ProU, formerly known as Carbon Copy Pro performed one of the largest company raids in the online world. Hopefully they are now realizing that when you start with bad business it will always end a “BAD BUSINESS”

Their former company that made them millions is now in the process of suing CCP and PROU.

My question is this how could a company give up a 20 million dollar enterprise and product line for a garbage like automatic millionaire… IT IS SIMPLE THE TOP EARNERS GOT GREEDY.

I am not 100% certain, but I heard that marketing superstar Jeff Learner is also making a decision to leave. Without Jeff & Aaron this company will not last 6 months… I give it 30 days.

So Kudos to Jeff and Aaron for showing their Integrity and walking away from the SCAM of the century.

I don’t endorse or am I affiliated with either company. I just think that PRO has let their top dog walk and their top marketer soon to follow because of arrogance, greed and manipulation.

PLEASE BE CAREFUL IF YOU ARE THINKING OF BECOMING A PART OF THIS “CAR WRECK” OF A COMPANY.

If you are currently in Pro U, You may start looking for other marketing systems or companies you used to work with… maybe get back to your traditional job… Your leaders are scared of lawsuits and will soon be deserting you PERMANENTLY.

“I can promise you once this post hits the press… They will spin stories and start damage control “i.e. LIES” to keep people LIKE YOU lining their pockets to pay their lawsuits.



#24

B.F.

Jun 10th, 2011 at 5:13 pm  B.F.(Q)

Actually, Mike Dillard left WMI for Pro U together with most of the big sharks:
http://lenabjorna.com/millionaire.htm

Recently he have a “mastermind call” together with Kip Herriage:
http://theelevationgroup.com/gold-and-silver/has-the-next-leg-down-begun-mastermind-call-with-james-turk-gonzalo-lira-and-kip-herriage/

It seems like a survival game where people jump from ship to ship as they sink.

It will be interesting to see where Aaron Rashkin, David Schwind, Lena Bjorna, Jonathan Budd, Jeff Learner, Brian Fanale, Andrew Cass, Norbert Orlewitz and the rest end up when the CCP ship is totally wrecked and sunken.



#25

mira

Aug 5th, 2011 at 4:57 am  mira(Q)

The mere fact that you refer to David Bach as “some guy” shows your overwhelming ignorance and renders your opinion null and totally void.



#26

Oz

Aug 5th, 2011 at 9:30 am  Oz(Q)

Why? Should I have used ‘your majesty’? Wait I can do better than that, how about ‘your lordship’, is that regal enough…?

…is the information credible now?



#27

K. Chang

Aug 5th, 2011 at 11:21 am  K. Chang(Q)

@mira — so David Bach claims to be a big shot author. So does the convicted felon Kevin Trudeau. So what? Both have radio shows, both are known “celebrities”, both have “best-sellers”, and so on and so forth.

I have no opinion on Mr. Bach. I’m merely pointing out that celebrity status and endorsement does NOT imply legitimacy or viability.



#28

Bryan

Aug 5th, 2011 at 12:38 pm  Bryan(Q)

Still, all points are being made by individuals who are not affiliated with Pro U, AMI, or CCPro.



#29

Oz

Aug 5th, 2011 at 2:32 pm  Oz(Q)

…and why do you need to be affiliated with Pro U, AMI or CCPro to make a point about them?



#30

Bryan

Aug 5th, 2011 at 8:41 pm  Bryan(Q)

Because you have an external perspective and really have no idea what you are talking about. It is like a Walmart door greeter telling a doctor how to do his job. Pretty ridiculous. Everybody I know in Pro U, as well as myself, are extremely satisfied with it and probably make more money on a monthly basis then most internet marketers. If your not in, then your viewpoint is twisted and biased….it is that simple.



#31

Oz

Aug 5th, 2011 at 9:40 pm  Oz(Q)

@Bryan

Because you have an external perspective

I’d argue that’s far more useful then someone biased by being financially involved in the company.

It is like a Walmart door greeter telling a doctor how to do his job.

Not at all. A doctor needs formal and accredited training to practice. What qualifications do you need to be a Carbon Copy Pro rep?

If your not in, then your viewpoint is twisted and biased….it is that simple.

My irony meter just exploded.



#32

B.F.

Aug 5th, 2011 at 11:21 pm  B.F.(Q)

Bryan: Everybody I know in Pro U, as well as myself, are extremely satisfied with it

Are you also extremely satisfied with the fact that 50 % of the members left Carbon Copy Pro the last 7 months?

Evidence: http://faraosgravkammer.blogspot.com/2010/12/nedtellingen-har-begynt.html



#33

K. Chang

Aug 6th, 2011 at 12:43 am  K. Chang(Q)

Bryan:
Because you have an external perspective and really have no idea what you are talking about. … If your not in, then your viewpoint is twisted and biased….it is that simple.

Clearly, you got the proverb backwards. You’re supposed to see the forest, not the trees.

Sounds like you’re trying to use “You don’t understand us” spiel, one of the many tactics identified by Michael Shermer, noted skeptic, that was used by pseudo-scientists and scammers.



#34

Bryan

Aug 6th, 2011 at 1:45 am  Bryan(Q)

I have nothing to defend….just simply making a point that the remarks in this post are absolutely false, based on total speculation, and from sources that are less than credible.

How can you honestly give an opinion about something you yourself haven’t tried yourself. All of your facts are false. But you wouldn’t know that would you? Your perspective is one of malice intent, and you will continue to shoot down any support of CCPRO. Peace out gents. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.



#35

K. Chang

Aug 6th, 2011 at 6:03 am  K. Chang(Q)

@Bryan — by your logic, the courts should not be able to pass judgement on criminals because they are not criminals themselves. After all, you did write “you have an external perspective and really have no idea what you’re talking about”.

Sorry, don’t buy that line of logic at all.

If you see falsehood or weak logic, point them out. Blanket dismissal “all of your facts are false” without corroborating evidence only gets you ridiculed, esp. when you come back with some more unsupported accusations, like “I have nothing to defend” and “you ought to be ashamed of yourself”.



#36

Bryan

Aug 6th, 2011 at 7:31 am  Bryan(Q)

First off, Chang, lets keep this in the context of CCPro. Just because I make a comment doesn’t mean it applies to every situation in life, let alone courts with judges and criminals. So if your going to debate, please do all of us a huge favor and keep your comments contextual to the topic in which this is all about.

And secondly, Chang, really? You honestly feel the comment of “you ought to be ashamed of yourself” is an unsupported accusation? For starters, it isn’t an accusation at all. It is me simply stating you ought to be ashamed of your previous ignorant comments.

Again, here is the 2nd instance of your non-contextual remarks. For the sake of all the readers, please, if you are going to say something, you should probably apply it in the same manner in which your response is referring to. What you are doing is sort of what the religious crowd does when they try to justify their insanity with the Bible. (Oh please, and I am sure you have a ridiculous response to that remark.)

Now this blog was supposed to be about CCPro, AMI, and Pro U, but as we can all see, some people have to take things and blow them out of proportion and way out of context. I have better things to do, like make many more thousands online, than to follow this ridiculous conversation. So I am done wasting my time here.

Have a wonderful life folks, and if you really want a change in your life, check out PRO, see what it is really all about for yourself….after all….there is a guarantee to back you up. Take care! And Semper Fi 🙂



#37

K. Chang

Aug 6th, 2011 at 8:15 am  K. Chang(Q)

@Bryan — you have yet to present a SINGLE piece of evidence to prove your assertion “all your facts” are false.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and keep this “on context”, as you put it. All you’ve been doing is blow smoke my way.



#38

Oz

Aug 6th, 2011 at 11:02 am  Oz(Q)

@Bryan

I have nothing to defend….just simply making a point that the remarks in this post are absolutely false, based on total speculation

How about we start with defending that claim. Perhaps defend isn’t the right word, let’s try ‘back it up’.

What exactly is absoltuely false and based on total speculation?

How can you honestly give an opinion about something you yourself haven’t tried yourself.

People assess companies without joining them all the time. If a company is honest and upfront they should be providing you with more than enough material and information so that you can make an informed decision.

Just because this information and material doesn’t make you want to sing from the rooftops about how great an opportunity is doesn’t mean you’re opinion is any less credible.

Speaking of credibility, you do know that my ‘sources’ are primarily the CCPRO, Pro U and Automatic Millionaire websites right? The same information that’s available to anyone looking to join these companies.

Are you suggesting then that these websites aren’t credible?

But you wouldn’t know that would you? Your perspective is one of malice intent, and you will continue to shoot down any support of CCPRO.

That’s what you want to read.

I looked at this opportunity from the outside and gave an honest opinion about it. You can try all you want to discredit me personally but it doesn’t change that fact.



#39

M_Norway

Aug 6th, 2011 at 10:36 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@Bryan
You have been a CCPro-member for at least 4 months now. Did you overestimate it as an income opportunity?

With this small investment (ignore AMI for now, as you can choose to not even market it) you can make some serious residual income. For every sale you bring in of PRO, you will receive a one time $150 payment, PLUS a $30 dollar/month payment. So, you do the math. You make 100 sales, and you have generated $15,000….plus $3,000 coming in as a residual income EVERY month!

100 sales, $15,000 income, $3,000 residual income every month? “With only a small investment”. Or did you have to spend even more money to get a fair chance to recover your investment?

The “Master Marketing Event 7” in May had less than 100 guest, the last time I checked (close to the date of the event). I believe it was 87 guests or something?

When the inside sources are misleading people should use outside sources instead, or use both inside and outside sources.



#40

caribbean-steve

Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:26 am  caribbean-steve(Q)

M_Norway:

The “Master Marketing Event 7″ in May had less than 100 guest, the last time I checked (close to the date of the event). I believe it was 87 guests or something?

The event had well over 500 people. How, why, what were those people thinking and what bs were they told? Thats a whole other story.



#41

M_Norway

Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:01 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@caribbean steve:
My source (around May 15.) was FaceBook, CarbonCopyMarketing.

Remember that “over 500 people” from CCPro normally means “almost 200 people” in normal language. The pictures from the event shows approx. 200 people, an estimated 2*(10*10) seats in the room.

It’s not EASY to estimate the size of the room or the number of seats by those pictures, so I may have miscalculated. I compared the size of people most far away in a row with those closest in the same row, in different pictures and from different angles.

I see they offered live streaming from the event? It’s probably included in the statement “over 500 people joined the event”, but “500 people” still sounds exaggerated.



#42

M_Norway

Aug 15th, 2011 at 7:57 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@caribbean steve
You can see the size of the room in photo #2 (out of 64 photos), and also in photo #56 and #58.
(www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150195721469164.316868.32997384163)

I believe it’s between 160 and 200 chairs in the room, and I also believe their statement “over 500 people joined the event” is grossly exaggerated (like most of their statements).

Master Marketing Event is one of their MAIN events, where most people would have joined if they were interested. One comment on their FaceBook-page says “Where are all the people from Scandinavia?”. 🙂



#43

joe

Sep 8th, 2011 at 12:34 am  joe(Q)

Why is everyone slamming carbon copy pro here. Seems odd that people keep posting stuff here about how “bad they are”?

I know a friend right now who made 93 sales in the last 4 months…almost equaling what Bryan said about the 3 grand a month. He only spent the BIB cost ($395)and about 300 dollars total in paid advertising.

So yes, a lot can be made with little investment. Im thinking of joining just from seeing this. So how can you all keep talking bad about it when it really works?



#44

Oz

Sep 8th, 2011 at 8:29 am  Oz(Q)

Was that with Pro U or something else?



#45

K. Chang

Sep 8th, 2011 at 10:53 am  K. Chang(Q)

joe:
Why is everyone slamming carbon copy pro here. Seems odd that people keep posting stuff here about how “bad they are”?

If you can refute the stuff posted here, please do so. Oz welcomes differing opinions… when they are BACKED UP by verifiable facts and sources.

I know a friend right now who made 93 sales in the last 4 months…almost equaling what Bryan said about the 3 grand a month. He only spent the BIB cost ($395)and about 300 dollars total in paid advertising.

Great, but you *do* understand that “getting paid” is not necessarily legal, right? There are plenty of illegal things that pay people.

So yes, a lot can be made with little investment. Im thinking of joining just from seeing this. So how can you all keep talking bad about it when it really works?

You could say “selling illegal narcotics works, it pays people” too. Doesn’t mean people should rush out and do it.

“It works” is a very lame justification. Every scam out there works by convincing you it works, then change the terms on you. We’re simply taking a closer look.



#46

Oz

Sep 8th, 2011 at 11:35 am  Oz(Q)

Also if it wasn’t selling Pro-U, it’d be interesting to know whether the sales were of actual third party products (or a business opportunity), or whether it was merely selling the Carbon Copy Pro marketing system to people.



#47

Jonno

Oct 28th, 2011 at 9:15 pm  Jonno(Q)

As an ex-pro’er and a pretty successful one at that for more than the average few months I struggle to see how ‘Joes’ friend sold over 93 in 4 months.

The ‘big shots’ were not even appearing to do this sort of average – gone are the days of Michael Force doing 60+ per month.



#48

Oz

Oct 28th, 2011 at 9:18 pm  Oz(Q)

Yet another case of ‘fake it till you make it’ currently plaguing the industry?



#49

oc onlooker

Nov 8th, 2011 at 3:44 pm  oc onlooker(Q)

I was sucked into the vortex of CCP/WMI about 4 or more years ago which I narrowly escaped from after being exposed to convincing marketing, videos and the all too now overused screenshot of checks earned by Michael Force, who incidentally uses his former position in the USMC as part of his story.

This came to mind while reading ‘bryan’s’ semper fi flip off to the thread. Hmmm.. could it be he knows Mike Force too?

I had to jump through a lotta hoops to actually get this guy on the phone but it was the fact his autoresponders had a phone number that the transparency seemed real. I had just begun digging into the opportunities on the web. Mike Force was plastered everywhere and was listed as a VP of sales of CCP. The WMI was the big ticket he sold, CCP was a given in the process.

If I didn’t come in at the top level of $18k I’d have to earn my way up if my prospects came in at any level above the one I’d entered and essentially the sale rolls up to Mike for the first 10, which reminded me of Boiler Room.

The kicker was when I asked him how much his marketing expenses were to earn his $50k a month or whatever it was .. he told me $30k. I asked what the minimum was I’d need to spend to get enough flow and conversion with the averages he’d given me to make some serious income and he told me I would need to buy part of his campaign in adwords for $3k monthly at minimum.

I then started to consider how saturated all his marketing was and how if I were competing for the few out there willing to shell out that kind of dough, with his fat check screenshots and presence I’d be dead in the water.

On top of that, the product was a luxury item and the economy was diving, on top of the fact that the product was vague.. and non consumable so it would be all about hard selling and fear of loss. I’ve seen a lot of deals over the years but this was the most expensive gig I’d ever seen pitched in such a remote manner.

It was quite the psychological game looking back. The tactics of whetting the appetite, making the fish jump through hoops, then hard balling just letting the realization come through as the fear of loss in coming in low only to give away the profits on sales of the higher tier gnaw on the greed the whole thing works on.

To manipulate you to fork over $20k without anything more than websites, video pitches, and a phone is exactly the trade of the boiler room shark. Only worse because you have to become one yourself or die and lose your outlay.

It’s great to see this exposed here, hopefully it will save some newbie a fortune and be one less black eye on an industry offering hope and solutions for people now when its needed most.

These unscrupulous bastards that grind up people who likely are throwing in their last money along with their hopes, savings and trust like sausage while insulating themselves should be exposed for the sociopaths they are.



#50

M_Norway

Nov 14th, 2011 at 9:47 am  M_Norway(Q)

CarbonCopyPRO seems to have 2-300 members world wide (estimated number)?
Joe’s friend must be very popular in Carbon Copy PRO?

93 sales in 4 months makes him their current top producer, I believe? Even if it’s imaginary sales to imaginary customers?

joe September 8th, 2011 at 12:34 am
I know a friend right now who made 93 sales in the last 4 months…almost equaling what Bryan said about the 3 grand a month. He only spent the BIB cost ($395)and about 300 dollars total in paid advertising.

The method I used:
I googled
site:1yearplan.net – 239 hits (site created March 4 2011)
site:oneyearplan.net – 122 hits (old site, created 2004)

The number of members seems to be either
* 239 hits
* or 239+122=361 hits (minus duplicates)
* minus company pages = real number of members.

It seems like they created a new website when I posted an estimated number of members, February 25 2011, the first post in this thread. I’ll guess they migrated to the new site, and that new members are added there.

Legal threats:
CCPro demanded the information to be removed in March 2011:

March 9th, 2011 at 2:04 pm Oz
Just a heads up, last night I received a legal threat from Carbon Copy Pro regarding the membership information numbers provided above;

To avoid similar legal threats this time, I have already specified the sources, specified the methods I used, and I stated that it is an estimated number of members. The data was collected today. I will also correct these numbers if someone provides us with more accurate numbers.

“Being a success is extremely fun and exciting”
It’s not necessary to send a new letter to the members, either, like last time – “Don’t read blogs, forums or NEWS. It’s all negative, and nothing good comes from it.” 🙂

The letter is posted as the first comment in this thread:
https://behindmlm.com/companies/wealth-masters-international/wmi-banned-in-norway-yet-business-as-usual-in-the-us/



#51

M_Norway

Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:09 pm  M_Norway(Q)

The idea ‘fake it till you make it’ doesn’t seem to work very well, especially when too many people are using the same idea? It will always draw a lot of negative attention when people realize it’s fake.

The idea seems to be more destructive than constructive when replicated in large scale, especially if it’s part of a business idea.

I know that parts of the theories behind ‘fake it till you make it’ probably are related to other areas than business, like some self development theories?
* “Think, feel and act like a success, and you will eventually become a success.”
* “Stay focused on your goals and what you desire to achieve.”
* “The right mindset.”

The idea doesn’t seem to work very well in this area, either? The idea seems to work for a short period of time, and for most people it doesn’t seem to work very well in the long term.

I believe most successful people don’t spend their time pretending to be more successful than they are, or spend a lot of energy marketing themselves as ‘successful’? Usually they’re spending more time running a business or something similar.

I don’t think they spend a lot of time focusing on themselves, either, like focusing on their goals, desires or their own role? I don’t think they’re focusing on some new mindsets either, like having a positive mindset to attract positive people.

It seems like many of the ideas in this business are more like ‘recipes for failure’ than ‘recipes for success’, at least in the long term.

In Norway, Carbon Copy Pro worked for a few months in 2009, when it was marketed as a home business. It didn’t work VERY well, but it worked for a period of time. The ideas started to fail after a few months, when the marketing became more visible, and then received some attention from different sources. Almost every idea failed after a few months, but most people continued to follow ‘the recipes for failure’. Eventually they were forced to drop most of the ideas.

I believe successful people have a different mindset here, and will replace ideas that don’t work with new and better ideas, instead of claiming to be ‘successful’, ‘internet gurus’ or something.

I don’t think the actual number of members reflects the ‘positive mindset’ of Joe’s friend or Bryan. It seems like they’re following the same old recipe I have seen before, instead of replacing the ideas.



#52

Teresa Nestico

Nov 27th, 2011 at 11:20 am  Teresa Nestico(Q)

Hello, it’s very interesting what I am reading here, it’s the way I started to see it after two months I was a Pro U member.

I don’t know what I was thinking but I bought the gold membership, they are good at selling making you believe that is actually real for everybody to make money with CCP.

Anyway, the marketing partner I was with was forced to leave Pro and he opened his own online business and went back to WMI. I followed him and realized what a f… I have been in spending all that money that I did not even have (I used credit cards).

Now I am trying everything to have that money back, but they said no because the refund window is only 3 days. Can you believe it? Only 3 days, how can you make a judgement in only 3 days.

Anyway, do you think I have any chance to get my money back?

I am thinking to go to a lawyer to ask for advice.
Please let me know.

Thanks
Teresa Nestico



#53

Oz

Nov 27th, 2011 at 11:25 am  Oz(Q)

Hey Teresa sorry to hear about your loss.

My gut feeling is that the money is gone but yeah I’m not a lawyer so it might be worth seeing one.

Keep in mind a lawyer costs more money and even the most insigificant of legal tasks undertaken by the lawyer will furhter eat into the money you’ve lost on PRO.



#54

Teresa Nestico

Nov 27th, 2011 at 11:42 am  Teresa Nestico(Q)

Thanks Oz, I will keep this in mind if I will see a lawyer.

I know you are right.
Teresa



#55

M_Norway

Nov 30th, 2011 at 6:10 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@Teresa Nestico
Don’t spend more money in WMI, either. They have their own serious problems that have escalated in the last year, like
* being banned i Norway as a pyramid scheme in March 2011
* investigation by SEC in the U.S., October 2011
* pyramid investigation in New Zealand, November 2011
* some serious internal problems, causing a lot of people to quit, September 2011 and still continuing.

Sorry, but I believe you have jumped from one sinking ship to another. Most of these ‘ships’ have sunk in the last two years. Some of them still have some lifeboats floating.

Some of the people in these businesses actually have good ideas, and don’t have to fake anything. It may be worth spending some time identifying good ideas, rather than follow advice from a ‘marketing partner’.



#56

Patrick

Nov 30th, 2011 at 6:27 pm  Patrick(Q)

I read above where Aaron Parkinson left PRO to go back to WMI, and rumors about Jeff Lerner doing the same thing.

What I know for sure is that JJ Jackson, former host of the morning wake up call, has also left PRO to go over to WMI.

I will say that CC PRO was ethical in giving me a FULL refund within just a few days, but that WMI were real creeps about refunding my WMI M1. Mary Dee (now gone elsewhere) forced me to go through their 100-day online program before they would issue a refund, THEN they held back a 10% restocking fee. The refund from WMI took nearly one year to get back.

Watching Jay Kubassek crash and burn, while issuing all kinds of spin to cover for it is going to be very enjoyable.



#57

Patrick

Nov 30th, 2011 at 7:17 pm  Patrick(Q)

I have been surfing the internet about this stuff, which entails following links. A HUGE percentages of links I follow either link to a parked/shut down website name, or to someone named other than you would expect, maybe an upline or something who took over the landing page after someone has dropped out.

When I was dreaming, wishing, hoping that CC PRO was for real I saw so many red flags, and the more I checked, the redder they got. I just didn’t feel good about the “fake it till you make it” / “brand yourself as an internet marketing guru” mentality, or the fact that AFTER you get in, and go on the hook for several hundreds of dollars of monthly fees they never told you about, you find that to make the real money you have to spend another $2,500 per month for ppc fees. What’s so great about spending $35K per year to make $50K ???

MY sponsor, was downline from Lerner/Michael Force/Brian Magnosi(his sponsor) (if that is the correct order, I done forgot) and he did EVERYTHING right. He branded himself well, still results ALL OVER the internet about him and CC PRO. He bought up to M3, but now is out of the business. He MUST have lost well over $35,000 – $40,000 and it took him well over one year to become L1. When I realized that, I knew that li’l ‘ol me never stood a chance.

Another question I always had, kinda related to ethics. If Mr. Michael Force was making SO much money, spending so much on ppc, then selling his ppc program to his downlines, when CC PRO held “Black Box” sales contests for new cars like the BMW, WHY WAS MICHAEL FORCE, A COMPANY VP, EVEN ELIGIBLE TO WIN THOSE KINDS OF SALES CONTESTS?

Just reeks of poor ethics to me.

Also found Jeff Lerners website out on the internet, there it shows a copy of an email from Michael Force to Jeff, pretty much throwing Jeff Lerner under the bus. Later Jeff clarifies facts about his “getting kicked out of PRO”

These guys are really something else. How do they sleep at night? Just wondering.



#58

M_Norway

Nov 30th, 2011 at 9:42 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@Patrick
None of these companies had a ‘professional’ refund policy in late 2009 / early 2010. They may have changed since then.

You have already mentioned WMI’s ‘100 day money back guarantee’ and how it really works. Carbon Copy PRO had similar problems in 2009/2010, making it nearly impossible to return products and get money refunded.

I will say that CC PRO was ethical in giving me a FULL refund within just a few days, but that WMI were real creeps about refunding my WMI M1. Mary Dee (now gone elsewhere) forced me to go through their 100-day online program before they would issue a refund, THEN they held back a 10% restocking fee. The refund from WMI took nearly one year to get back.

I watched a dialogue in a forum/blog where one of the newly recruited distributors in CCPro wanted to quit. He was sent in a circle between the sponsor and the company:
* The sponsor: ‘You’ll have to contact the company.’
* CCPro: ‘You’ll have to contact your sponsor’.
* The sponsor: ‘Sorry, but you have already USED the product, so they can’t refund any money.’ (Plus a lot of comments blaming the customer for all the trouble he has created).
* Me (interfering): ‘Such problems in refund policy may seriously hurt your own business. You are discussing this matter in a thread visited by most of your potential customers.’
The sponsor then decided to return the money himself, because he realized that further discussion would have been very harmful to his own business. I may still be able to find the original dialogue (in Norwegian), but I have recalled the most important parts from memory.

The company itself didn’t have a professional refund policy in late 2009. They only offered a lot of trouble when some people wanted to return products and terminate memberships.

WMI have (had?) their ‘100 day refund policy’, and CCPro had a similar ‘One year money back guarantee’. You had to be a member for one full year and pay the monthly fee to get your initial payment back. ‘Initial payment’ means the cost of the BlackBox, minus shipment costs.

A professional refund policy will try to solve problems instead of creating them. Both CCPro and WMI have had (or do still have?) very unprofessional refund policies, creating a lot of trouble for the customers.

I don’t consider a 10 percent restocking fee to be unfair, but most other parts of their refund policy are really unfair to the customers.



#59

Bryan

Nov 30th, 2011 at 11:36 pm  Bryan(Q)

Yes I agree with you Patrick….I wrote an email to my sponsor after I began to pull the blindfolds off that were so sneakingly put on me. I have been labeled a “black cat” within the PRO community, and have been on a vengeance to prove my point.

After me send that email, which was epic, none of my phone calls were returned, I got no response back, and was called by PRO to take down my websites that I had successfully SEO’d to the top of page 1 for Google for various terms. I had a marketing guy call me from HQ in NY. He told me to stop SEO. Said that I was wasting my time…..

Anyway….for all those following this blog…I invite you to read my email I sent to my sponsor. All you got to do is go to Google. search the term

entrepreneurs wanted

You will see one of my sites. I will modify the link as to not recieve a backlink from this post…just look for this link at or near the top of page 1 on google for that term

URL is http://small-businessidea.com/entrepreneurs-wanted (Ozedit: I don’t mind the link if it’s relevant, comment links are nofollow in anycase. I’ve also included the email below incase the source goes down over time)

Well I have A LOT of issues right now with PRO and the whole Marketing Partner thing. This is a massive email, and I am Extremely upset, so don’t read this until you have time to take in my speel. I ask that you see what I am saying from an open mind. Don’t shut off what I am saying just because I am mad or it may be a little offensive. There is no tone in email….so bear with me.

Where do I even start…it is so ridiculous. I was on the phone with Tyler (my only member) and he was telling me of his frustrations and how he is not seeing any results, very few leads, so on and so on.

He also told me the he is spending $2500 on the MP ad co-op program! I couldn’t believe this when he told me that. $2500? For what? The MP promises all these leads but Tyler says that he has only seen a couple from this? So who is getting rich off who? How many people in PRO are paying that to their MPs? …….

Seems HIGHLY unethical for any “Leader” in PRO to pressure their members to pay that kind of money for a product promised that never comes. I was infuriated about this. Extremely. $2500. EVERY MONTH! You got to be kidding me. Looks like Force knows how to make money for himself. Wow. To me it is mind blowing. I currently have over 500 articles on 200+ websites….2 leads…1 app from those….

So in regards to your last email about getting articles….it doesn’t work. Honestly, when was the last time you, or anybody you know, went to an article site, picked the appropriate category, clicked on your article, read your article, clicked on the link to your page, opted into your funnel, bought an app, and came through with a BIB? It very very rarely happens.

When was the last time you went on Youtube,…or anybody you know….and bought a product from a Youtube video…? Never.

When was the last time you or people you personally know bought a product from a FB link or post. Never, It doesnt happen. If it happens it happens on a VERY small scale. Not on a life changing income scale. A sale here a sale there….if your lucky…both

Tyler and I are proof of this…and I venture to say almost all PRO members suffer these results. The EXACT “blueprint” is never shared. Has Force ever said what he does? No. Has he shown everyone how he gets his leads? No. He says banner ads. OK. Sure. So why is it I find him all over Google #1 spots?

He is an SEO man. I have seen it myself. I am VERY disgruntled at the ethics of the upper leadership of PRO. Tyler being sucked into $2500 A MONTH? Really? I thought maybe you or Jack would stop him from doing this…..

it is so obvious to see who is making the money here. So obvious… If you can’t see what is going on here, then I could take an educated guess that you and Jack get some form of kickback from this. Maybe not. Still, it seems so wrong to me to allow my member to opt into a monthly ad co op like this at that cost for no results.

And what is this “we ourselves are still becoming masters AT A CERTAIN thing”? ….What CERTAIN thing?

The system doesn’t work. Not the way PRO says to do it. Give us $2500 a month….and we will get you leads….really? Sounds like Tyler is MP co-op reliant at a 3 month commitment totaling $7500!….not system reliant as you say in your last email.

So what kind of leaders are running this? Leaders that keep people in long enough to suck every dollar from you until you cant breath anymore and quit in misery. It is True. Why does CCPRO say to NOT DO SEO? Why is that? Hmmm…. I wonder….Force is all over SEO Google Bing, Yahoo….So is Kubassek….

Interesting….I even believe that you and Jack think SEO is the way to go….I have heard you say Jack is learning it….

So why do they say not to do it?…BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY 10 SPOTS ON 1ST PAGE! If PRO taught SEO, then all the leaders would be knocked off….Including Force…..they simply cannot have thousands of people competing for rankings on search engines now can they? NO.

I am so angry at these ethics Jill…I am being bluntly honest. I realized this months ago and when I heard the total rip off $2500 for 3 months thing from Tyler, I lost it.

Now….lets be honest here. You know as well as I that SEO is the only way you will ever ever come close to making that kind of life changing money. But PRO leaders will not say this. They can’t. The system is designed to make them rich. Why do you think they have this PRO Elite set up so commissions are passed up to sponsors or higher to the MP if a member makes a sale but isnt positioned? WOW that is obvious.

Force even said himself….he made 50K in a single day….from HIS MEMBERS SALES AND HARD WORK! Now how is this ethical? How is this “helping the community?’” How is this right? How is it moral? This whole thing is designed to keep money flowing upstream while the little man….can’t get the commissions required to earn enough to move up.

So what is being a leader? Would I allow my Marines to run into a building to just be blown away dead for no gain?

I ask this because this is what PRO and it’s MPs are doing. Most of PRO members are not at Platinum and Black. Most are like me. Most are looking for an opportunity to change their life. How then, can they achieve this when the higher leadership is telling us crap marketing methods that don’t work?

I alone have 500+ articles. 1000s of ads places. Even if they were banners. Who can afford all this money to advertise? Who has a $10,000 a month ad budget? Not the average man.

My point is…MOST PRO members lose tons of money on their sales….straight up the line to the positioned member….So how are they going to get “to the top”? They aren’t. It is impossible….If I recall….you and Jack are L1 level. That is what…10 Boxes? maybe 15 at the most? 20 if your lucky? So you’ve been in since what 2009′? about a year and a half? give or take a few months? and ONLY L1?

I am in no way trying to insult you 2 at all. In no way. My point is….you’ve been at it for a while now and you guys are NO WHERE NEAR you want to be. I know this. Think Im crazy, thats fine. Deep down you know I am hitting something here. L1.

How many members do you still have that haven’t quit? Why don’t you and Jack ever tell us EXACTLY what you do to get leads? I’ve never been told. I’ve been told banners. Really? Ok, where? how many? are they working? not really….they cant be….if it all worked then you’d be L2 or L3 right? You’d have more sales?

I am speaking logic here. Are you doing ad co-op? None of us know any of this. Its all a secret. And I am told to stop SEO. Why? When you want something….do you go to youtube? do you go to article sites? ………….Google……..Bing……or Yahoo……..get my drift……..Force…..all over search engines……..$2500 a month ad co op? This doesnt ad up.

A sale here and a sale there doesnt cut it. Where is the real life changing write your own paycheck from home money? Guess how I found your landing page……Google….guess how Tyler found me?…..BING. Guess how MOST CCPRO members find Pro? Search Engines….What is the one thing PRO frowns its members doing? Search engine marketing. Please tell me why. Not everyone can be on top. Thats why. And we all….including you….pay into all this crap that keeps them rich.

Why are you only an L1 with all the hard work and time? The PRO system, as far as marketing, does not work. 90% of members would agree with me. Why is it that only L1 or higher can shout out on Fridays Call? Why not the other 90% of members? Are you catching what I am saying? SEO IS WHAT THE BIG BOYS USE……

Me being a leader, I absolutely refuse to allow my members go down this same path….the path that the MPs want us to go down…the one that leads to passed commissions….the one that costs $2500 for NOTHING…garbage leads if any…Tyler is proof of that…the path that keeps you down making $150 per BIB and kissing the AMI money goodbye…I am proof of that…(I was told Id get a kickback to help me get SILVER–did this happen? NO. It didn’t)

Why didn’t I get the help? Why did you tell me this and not help me by giving me some of my passed commission? Yet another guess by me….You and Jack really aren’t making them money you want to make. If you were…helping me get Silver would’ve been no problem. Sorry. I am just being honest. I am trying to prove a point here.

Most PRO members are gasping for air. Tyler is. You should talk to him. So…what am I going to do about it? I am going to change it. I am going to alter how this business runs. I am going to keep my members away from the MPs until the ethics are fixed. (If Force really cared, wouldn’t he just give leads to members? Wait the MP outscource option “is him helping members”….Is he really doing it for the members? Then why does he get 10%? Yet another income stream to keep the rich rich. Ouch. Yes I know it hurts. BUT I am going to do something about it.

I am NOT QUITTING. I am staying. But am going to change how things are done. I will rank page 1 for 100s of kws. Hundreds. It takes time. I will not allow my new members to be duped into this “system reliant” stuff that just sucks them dry. I will be the leader and show them how to do it.

Articles don’t work. Videos don’t work. Soc media, classifieds, banners, emails, ect do not work. They generate small numbers…a sale here…a sale there…not the life changing money we all came here for. So where does it come from? SEO. Again, why is SEO frowned against….just think about it.

Really. By now I am sure your very irritated or even mad by me…but let my bells sound aloud…sometimes the truth hurts…but what will you do with it? If you were on page 1 of Google….and had 1000s of leads a week…targeted leads…people ready to spend money leads….wouldn’t you be L3, L4, or even MP by now? This is how THEY do it.

The forms of marketing I mentioned a few sentences ago cannot….and will NEVER bring these types of numbers…..never….just a sale here, and a sale there, keeping you in PRO, keeping the top wealthy. I must change this. For the community. For us all. For PRO. Sure I’ll anger many people. Perhaps you. But one thing I know is that you’ll never forget this email. When will you realize this.

I know this is extremely long email and I understand if you or Jack never want to speak to me again. But there are some ethics issues here along with some horrible practices. Feel free to share this email with anybody in the upstream of PRO. I am not ashamed of my words in this email. The proof is in the pudding.

If you really consider what I am saying….maybe your eyes will be opened too. How long will you allow PRO members to end up like this? How long?

Just answer this one set questions HONESTLY, I’ve asked once but I want you to rethink it. How long have you been in PRO?…and…How many ACTIVE members do you have?….and how much money has Force made off of YOU & YOUR MEMBERS?…..the PRO system reliance has done this. Most members fail. Most of yours too I’m sure.

No puns or insults of any kind are intended in any of my comments.

Now it is time for my favorite phrase as I end this epic email…..

“EVERY problem has ITS OWN unique solution……….. YOU just have to FIND IT!”

If the Marine Corps has taught me 1 thing in the last 4 years….it is this truth.

It is a very long email, and I have kept it hidden for months now. I want the world to see the nasty truths behind PRO, PRO Elite, Carbon Copy Pro. Since, I have been on an SEO binge and am starting to dominate the market for search terms…in fact I literally knocked Force’s Number 1 website to number 2, then 3, then he removed his site…. Details on this is in my email.

Check it out…. There are no exaggerrations. Keep in mind, this email was from Sept 16. Since then Learner has left, JJ has left, and many others….Almost as if my email had already hit the world….

Enjoy.. Google entrepreneurs wanted look for small-businessidea . com/entrepreneurs-wanted ( I ranked for this Keyword as my defiance to PRO…There own coined Moto…kinda funny!



#60

Bryan

Nov 30th, 2011 at 11:49 pm  Bryan(Q)

Oh and also…check this conversation out…This was with Mark Hayes. Michael Force’s right hand man. This is stunning. Just goes along with my email (see above comment). This was on Nov 16th, 2011…

Hello Mark, how are you? Thank you for accepting my invite.

[11/16/2011 10:23:12 AM] Mark Hayes: Hey Bryan – good thanks

[11/16/2011 10:28:56 AM] Bryan St. Armand: I was a PRO member, and left, due to some really upsetting events. I spent all this money….marekting, advertising, 1000s of ads, hours on the phone, dedicated. I was bringing in tons of leads and apps. Was promised that I would receive a kick back from my sponsor on my first sale to help me get to a Silver. Was promised that my commission, though passed up, would be sent back to me to help me get “off the ground”. This didn’t happen….And this is when I began “looking deeper” into things. Have you been made aware of this?

[11/16/2011 10:30:08 AM] Mark Hayes: yes

[11/16/2011 10:30:25 AM] Bryan St. Armand: I loved PRO. Was all for it. And very dedicated. However, I couldn’t help but notice that most PRO members fail because of what we are told to do.

[11/16/2011 10:31:12 AM] Mark Hayes: perhaps as the MP setup was initated to bring everyone on the same page

[11/16/2011 10:32:15 AM] Bryan St. Armand: I began doing SEO. Was told many times to stop. Was even called by the PRO marketing guy and he even told me to stop

[11/16/2011 10:32:40 AM] Bryan St. Armand: He hung up on me after I told him that even michael force uses SEO….So does Jay

[11/16/2011 10:33:03 AM] Bryan St. Armand: and I began wondering why? Why does PRO tell the community to NOT USE SEO?

[11/16/2011 10:33:55 AM] Bryan St. Armand: When, from my research, MOST top earners are using it? It made no sense to me that I was branded as a “black cat” due to me discovering these things

[11/16/2011 10:34:00 AM] Mark Hayes: it does not seo is just one important part of marketing

[11/16/2011 10:34:20 AM] Bryan St. Armand: it seemed to me that many of the PRO leadership was hiding things.

[11/16/2011 10:35:07 AM] Mark Hayes: pro does not teach coperate servitude – only to eventually get on your own with your business an iots marketing

[11/16/2011 10:35:51 AM] Bryan St. Armand: Then…the killer for me was when I was out training…..One of my memebrs was pressured to pay $2500 for leads….Michael Force’s leads….he didn;t receive ANY quality leads…NO phone numbers even….just email addresses and names.

[11/16/2011 10:35:55 AM] Mark Hayes: I do not about theses things as building ventures as I have had much success here and in past verntures due to my extreme focus and discipline

[11/16/2011 10:36:38 AM] Bryan St. Armand: My beef has a lot to do with the lies that were spoken to me, and the constant “hiding” of the REAL secrets.

[11/16/2011 10:36:49 AM] Mark Hayes: much changes in testing phases of any programs – this no exception

[11/16/2011 10:37:43 AM] Mark Hayes: always remember in any business – pro no exception – there will always be things you must watch out for – as this is your own enterprise

[11/16/2011 10:38:37 AM] Bryan St. Armand: WHy would The MPs…Force included…pressure us to pay $2500 a month for garbage leads? No phone numbers? Seems really unethical to me. Seems the rich preying on the weak who have a dream to create the life of their dreams? I am in no way trying to upset you, I just want answers

[11/16/2011 10:39:19 AM] Mark Hayes: in my most recent business of construction design – engineering and build-out – I was faceed with these kinds of battles and one has to take the good with the bad and make decision for right or wrong and move on.

[11/16/2011 10:39:48 AM] Bryan St. Armand: I was so motivated….and then these ethical issues. MPs are “for the community” but this ad co op thing says different. I had a ripped off, frustrated member who is quitting now because of this

[11/16/2011 10:41:28 AM] Mark Hayes: Bryan you must know I don’t upset easily to much seat time in many ventures – not to speak of the many events that have happened over my career in business ie million $ law suits and the kind all to make me a better person in the end way more seasoned thatn perhaps the majority of people

[11/16/2011 10:42:18 AM] Bryan St. Armand: It seems so wrong to me to require 2500 a month from new members. Give bad leads. PRO even changed the sales funnel. Why? because it doesn’t work? No application now? 195 BIB? Seems like PRO is swimming in thick water trying to keep members in….

[11/16/2011 10:42:28 AM] Mark Hayes: my suggestion is not to be a part of something you do not feel is in your best interest

[11/16/2011 10:43:00 AM] Bryan St. Armand: Do you see the things I am saying?

[11/16/2011 10:43:21 AM] Mark Hayes: no one is pushed to be a part of SAPS or anything they do not want to be – afterall it is your business and to do with what you want

[11/16/2011 10:44:30 AM] Bryan St. Armand: Yes I know, but do you see the hypocricy? I sent out on a venture to prove that we are all told wrong

[11/16/2011 10:44:37 AM] Mark Hayes: perhaps as companies will always be adept to change and move in directions they must in order to survive – we all do the same even in our own lifes and businesses

[11/16/2011 10:45:29 AM] Bryan St. Armand: the problem is that this leaves many disgrunteled once motivated members in the path

[11/16/2011 10:45:51 AM] Bryan St. Armand: Why was I called by headquartes and told to STOP doing SEO?

[11/16/2011 10:46:05 AM] Bryan St. Armand: why did my sponsors frown on me from SEO work?

[11/16/2011 10:46:16 AM] Mark Hayes: many and I mean many are successful in the SAPS programs – in fact just in the month of OCT a new membeusing SAP and trainined under me became the sales leader.

[11/16/2011 10:46:32 AM] Bryan St. Armand: It all makes sense now that I did research….All the top people in PRO are all over google….Force included..

[11/16/2011 10:47:21 AM] Mark Hayes: I still feel you do what you need to do – it really makes no difference what everyone else is doing.

[11/16/2011 10:47:29 AM] Bryan St. Armand: keyword… Secure Business Model was Forces number 1 site…then I took the number 1 spot…then he deleted the website

[11/16/2011 10:48:20 AM] Mark Hayes: This is how I became kink in my past industry – take a little salt and sift out the nuggets of information you can use and march forward

[11/16/2011 10:48:56 AM] Mark Hayes: not the reason why the site was moved

[11/16/2011 10:49:14 AM] Bryan St. Armand: People come in…my member as well…and have this dream. A dream that is preyed upon by the leaders. We are told to be positve, seek self improvement, palce ads, have quality conversations….keeping members in long enough to keep them financially committed…VERY FEW people actually make it…I would say less than 10%

[11/16/2011 10:49:26 AM] Bryan St. Armand: but we stack up the “dead bodies” of members in the path

[11/16/2011 10:49:45 AM] Mark Hayes: so do all businesses

[11/16/2011 10:50:12 AM] Bryan St. Armand: while the MP rake in the money from passed up commissions…..the sponsors…like mine…Preach they are for “us”…but lies are told…I was sought after and told TO STOP what I was doing

[11/16/2011 10:50:18 AM] Bryan St. Armand: WHY?

[11/16/2011 10:50:27 AM] Bryan St. Armand: it is so unethical. Do you see this?

[11/16/2011 10:50:44 AM] Mark Hayes: why 97% percent of people in the world are where are and the other 3% fight in a different way – which one are you and where will you apply these principles – PRO or elsewhere?

[11/16/2011 10:51:24 AM] Mark Hayes: as in all businesses – due diligence is paramount

[11/16/2011 10:51:32 AM] Bryan St. Armand: This is why I ranked a site number 1 for Force’s keyword…to prove my point that SEO is what everyone is doing….but….thats not what new members are told to do…ITS a HIDDEN marketing skill that is neer taught.

[11/16/2011 10:52:52 AM] Mark Hayes: At this juncture – do not get caught up in bitterness as this will serve o purpose to you journey in any venture you seek out. Even the military has caused many dissappointing things for many – it’s all perception

[11/16/2011 10:52:54 AM] Bryan St. Armand: I ranked a website for the keyword Virtual Home Business …Number 1 on google….and was called and told I need to take the site down

[11/16/2011 10:53:15 AM] Bryan St. Armand: this caused me to wonder why

[11/16/2011 10:54:56 AM] Bryan St. Armand: Because there are only 10 spots on page 1….only 10…and ONLY 1 TOP spot…If PROS thousands of memebrs were taught how to do this….even the leaders would fall….the competition amongst memebrs would be like a fish in a shark tank….this is what I have discovered…the reason I was called…to take my sites down…the reason My sponsors even told me to stop…

[11/16/2011 10:55:10 AM] Bryan St. Armand: the reason Force took his site down to I would venture to say

[11/16/2011 10:55:52 AM] Mark Hayes: I must move on to a member training now – and nice chatting with you – I wish you all the success Bryan in your journey. And remember this always – something I have carried for years in all my travels and ventures:
Small minds discuss people
Average minds discuss event
Great minds discuss solutions

[11/16/2011 10:55:56 AM] Bryan St. Armand: SEO makes a level playing field for everyone…and this is why it isnt taught…because if all were doing it…it wouldn;t be a “community” it would be a shark tank

[11/16/2011 10:57:32 AM] Bryan St. Armand: SEO is the solution….You know it, Force Knows it, Kominiaks know it, Kubassek Knows it……so why doesn’t PRO teach it? Because PRO would crumble….like it is crumbling even now….Even JJ left…for a business opportunity? Really? Highly doubtful

[11/16/2011 11:01:53 AM] Mark Hayes: Know your passion and make that your impetus for your growth ahead – I know speaking on behalf of others as well my self – many belive in you and you passion for success – create solutions and channel these into this or your next venture and always be adept to change.

Cheers



#61

Patrick

Nov 30th, 2011 at 11:52 pm  Patrick(Q)

@M_Norway

After asking, bringing up the point where someone had bragged in some online information on their website about CC PRO’s easy refund policy, they gave me a full one, including all monthly and other fees I paid them.

I got a FULL 100% refund for EVERYTHING I spent with them from CC PRO with little resistance. I have to be honest and give them that.

As far as WMI goes, Mary Dee made me jump through hoops and complete the 100 day “course” (WHY take a course for something I wanted no part of, just wanted out?).

In doing the course, I realized what a load of crap their product and mindset really was. The course was somewhat simple-minded, had all kinds of contradictions, grammatical errors and misspellings in it. Much of the information was very basic, almost childish for what they were claiming it to do.

I don’t consider any of their video’s, much less their audio DVD’s to be very well made or produced. Nicely packaged, but what I consider to be poor content, especially for what they charge for them.

My issue about the 10% restocking fee was that the first time I even KNEW about it was when that amount was missing from the refund check. Until then every correspondence from them said “full refund”.

And, for a product as expensive as the M1 package was, the 10% basically covered their actual cost for an M1 package plus some. NO WAY that crap package cost them that much. I just didn’t appreciate Mary Dee lying to me.

At least I came out pretty much okay, but I feel really bad for my “sponsor” who lost more than $35K when he bought into their crap hook, line and sinker.

These guys are real creeps…



#62

K. Chang

Dec 1st, 2011 at 2:05 am  K. Chang(Q)

Chinese have an expression: slap your own face many times so you can pass for a fat man.

Sounds like an apt explanation for “fake it until you make it”. Doesn’t sound very healthy. 😀



#63

Patrick

Dec 1st, 2011 at 2:19 am  Patrick(Q)

Ah, so!

If you don’t “fake it till ya make it”, when a newbie sees a website that claims to want to make 100 millionaires THIS year, then when they ask the potential sponsor how THEY are doing, is sponsor answers honestly would probably lose the potential sucker.

You almost HAVE to act like you are making a bunch of money, even if, in truth, you are really losing money.

Like I said, it took my sponsor close to a year and a half to get to L1, and he was branding, blogging, writing articles, and had the best CC PRO website I have ever seen. And he lost his shirt in this venture.

CC PRO advertises ALL KINDS of what are essentially “get rich quick” ads to get you to sign up, then tell you that you cannot do that once you are sucked in.

I really wonder how many total people there currently are in CC PRO?



#64

M_Norway

Dec 1st, 2011 at 4:09 am  M_Norway(Q)

@Patrick

I consider all the trouble to be more annoying than the restocking fee. Most people will like to quit immidiately, and they don’t want to delay it for 100 days.

As far as WMI goes, Mary Dee made me jump through hoops and complete the 100 day “course” (WHY take a course for something I wanted no part of, just wanted out?). In doing the course, I realized what a load of crap their product and mindset really was.

CCPro had their own set of refund-problems at least until January 2010, but they may have fixed them.

Members in CC Pro:
You can try to google “site:1yearplan.net”, if they still use the same system they used before – all the member profiles stored on the same website.

I really wonder how many total people there currently are in CC PRO?

@Bryan
I have read parts of the email, and you’re right. The system is designed to push money upwards to the few near the top, and push expenses downwards to most of the other participants. This is how the business model works.

The marketing recipe won’t work for most new participants, mostly because too many of them are trying to copy the same ideas at the same time.

They are “drowning” the market with marketing efforts, and makes the market look more saturated than it really is. I have a feeling that the main purpose of the recipe is to keep people occupied with a lot of work, and to prevent them from doing their own thinking and research (or prevent them from visiting blogs like this one).

The business model itself will cause 80-95 percent of participants to fail (mathematically). It is more simular to a pyramid scheme than to a sustainable business model.

Mark Hayes had a point. It may be wiser to discuss solutions rather than problems, or to identify the ideas that works rather than all the ideas that failed.



#65

Oz

Dec 1st, 2011 at 9:01 am  Oz(Q)

@Bryan

I’ve included the email here incase the source goes down. Let me know if there’s any problems with this.



#66

K. Chang

Dec 1st, 2011 at 10:20 am  K. Chang(Q)

Patrick:
If you don’t “fake it till ya make it”, when a newbie sees a website that claims to want to make 100 millionaires THIS year, then when they ask the potential sponsor how THEY are doing, is sponsor answers honestly would probably lose the potential sucker.

So it *is* a con game… fake the success, defraud the potential recruit / victim / whatever into believing they can be like you (when you’re not actually successful).

Guess these folks have… “flexible” ethics.



#67

Oz

Dec 1st, 2011 at 10:28 am  Oz(Q)

I’ll also throw in my 2c regarding SEO;

Regarding article marketing, Yotube and social networks etc. etc., depending on how you approach these – post Google’s Panda update they can still all be classified as SEO, but how you do it is more important than ever.

Regardless, there’s still no excuse for a marketing company advising its members to actively not participate in SEO or even be aware of it.

SEO is an easy field to get swallowed up into but pretending it doesn’t exist or isn’t relevant in internet marketing is ridiculous. That single point alone should entirely discredit the PRO product if that’s what they’re teaching members – forget about whether they are paying $2500 a month for this ridiculous advice or not.

If you’re marketing the PRO opportunity itself, only one person can be at the top of those results and seeing as everyone is marketing the same opportunity at the same pricepoint – the only difference in online marketing between PRO marketers is where your marketing efforts wind up on the search engines.

Those at the top appear to clearly be giving out misleading marketing advice in an effort to further their own marketing efforts and reduce competition. No doubt they encourage members to use replicated sites too and other garbage.



#68

Patrick

Dec 3rd, 2011 at 12:50 am  Patrick(Q)

Not so long ago Carbon Copy Pro held a sale contest (for Black Boxes if I am not mistaken), and the winner was VP Michael Force. The prize to the winner was a REAL BMW automobile.

Very recently PRO U held a sales contest, with the winning prize a Canon Digital camera worth maybe $1,500. Next prize was another camera worth maybe $500.00.

Last two prizes were digital cameras or camcorders worth maybe $150.00 each.

The prizes offered tell me a lot as to how far (down) CC PRO has come in so short a time.

These guys are creeps.



#69

M_Norway

Dec 3rd, 2011 at 7:11 pm  M_Norway(Q)

A basic idea in sales is “meet other people’s needs” or “create a solution to other people’s problems”. Carbon Copy PRO actually worked when it was a solution to a problem, before they introduced all the bullshit and got too greedy. The basic idea was to be an automated recruitment system, and I believe that idea worked better than most of their marketing ideas.

One of my first impressions when I saw all the efforts done to look like millionairs was “These guys must have some serious problems?” (when I checked some of their websites in August 2009, in Norway). All the replicated websites used back then made many of them look more like braindead “zombies” than “professional marketers”.

CCPro has gradually evolved to be a problem in itself, rather than a solution. “Our goal is to create 100 people with a lot of needs and problems within 2012.”?



#70

M_Norway

Dec 26th, 2011 at 7:34 am  M_Norway(Q)

Nesting up a few loose ends in this thread …

‘Fake it till you make it’ and the mentor-idea:
Another reason why this method only works for a few is that people are equipped with different skills. Most people sucks when they pretend to be millionaires and gurus, but a very few fits right into these roles.

This is also one of the answers for why the mentor-idea fail, the idea “copy a success to become one”. Most often the conditions have changed since the mentor had his/her success, and often they’re not able to replicate their former success themselves, either. Or, maybe they don’t have the right skills to identify the factors that were important, or don’t have the skills to communicate it in a way that works.

The idea of copying a mentor sounds like a good solution, but actually it isn’t in most cases. I believe the main objective with this idea is to trick people into following a “leader”, do exactly what the leader tells them to do, including spending a lot of money on different stuff. Then at least the leader will make money.

Conflict of interest:
This is one of the reasons why some companies experience a lot of trouble. They become too busy celebrating themselves when they have had a success. They think it’s mostly related to their own work, and ignore to analyse other factors. Often the success is mostly related to the market itself or to some other factors, but for most people it will be very tempting to identify it as a result of their own work alone, ignoring other factors.

Carbon Copy Pro didn’t even bother to check the market in Norway, for any differences between the U.S’ and the Norwegian market. Most of us were very little impressed by the millionaire claims “100 millionaires within 2012”, and we wasn’t impressed by the rest of the marketing strategy, either.

CCPro introduced a major conflict of interest in parts of their marketing campaign, when they used expressions like “Fire your boss and become independent”, “Work from home a few hours a week”, and most of the other expressions.

The part “Quit your job” creates a lot of additional trouble for people, if they actually choose to do so. Part of this campaign was aimed towards one of the groups I belong to (age and interests), at least it seemed to be so.

Parts of the story are told earlier in this thread, but from a slightly different viewpoint.

M_Norway:
I wonder why the company still allows for marketing in Norway?

Usually it’s wise to do some research before we enter a market, to avoid or reduce different conflicts. It’s also wise to continue to look up for possible conflicts, and avoid to attract “skilled troublemakers”.

This topic “Conflict of interest” was meant to allow me to go off-topic with some related topics, which isn’t directly related to CCPro.



#71

M_Norway

Dec 28th, 2011 at 4:42 am  M_Norway(Q)

I’ll add a little extra stuff to one of the previous statements:

Most people sucks when they pretend to be millionaires and gurus, but a very few fits right into these roles.

Most people sucks when they try to act in a role outside their own skills and experience. The recipe “fake it till you make it” is a tragedy when it’s introduced to people that doesn’t have the required skills and experience.

A skilled person will either fit right into this role because of previous experience and training, or be able to identify the principles that works and adjust the recipe to his own situation.

A less skilled person will try to follow it as a ‘recipe’, much like a ‘cooking recipe’, and simply try to add the ingredients in the right order. Usually this ‘meal’ won’t be very tasteful, because of the lack of ‘basic cooking skills’. They would have had a fair better chance with a different recipe, a recipe adjusted to their own skills and experience.

CCPro sucked in delivering good recipes for ordinary people, and spent too much time bragging about their own success. It’s no wonder why this company seems to be “down in the mud”.

“3 men walking down a road”:
I don’t read books about self development and similar stuff, but I have used a few books more than 20 years ago. One of them described a picture like this:

3 men walks down a road.
* The first one is the person himself, as he really is.
* The second one is the person he think he is, and how he wants other people to see him.
* The third one is the person most other people sees him as.

Faking to be a millionaire may create too much distance between these 3 men, and usually the second person is only fooling himself. He isn’t in contact with any of the other persons.

This idea also applies to most other stuff in American “success recipes”. I have met a lot of people that have used methods to convince themselves about something, i.e. “being a leader” or something. Usually they lack the required basic skills a real leader use to have. Creating the feeling of being a leader may fool a few, and usually for a short period of time.

They may fool me if they have a lot of experience, but usually they won’t. This makes the situation rather complicated, when they believe I see the same picture as they have imagined themselves to be, in their own mind. Some success recipes really sucks. 🙂

Too much distance between these 3 men also causes communication trouble. Most people will only identify the person they see (how they see him), and will be unable to see the 2 other persons. In sales I sometimes have to identify these 2 other persons to be able to find a good solution, “what product will be right for this person?”.

This stuff was very theoretical, but it explains some communication problems that may occur from time to time. People simply sees things differently, and most often they will be completely unable to see things from your viewpoint. This principle relates to most areas, not only “the 3 men”.

This stuff is mostly aimed at a specific target, people that likes to evaluate ideas and principles rather than exact recipes.

NOTE:
In sales we can’t spend time analysing other people in detail, and my background is mostly related to sale. The skill required is to be more flexible in your own viewpoint, and to be more able to correct any “first impressions” you have received, and to continue to adjust these impressions.

This is a professional skill, and such skills may not be within the range of thinking we use in our daily lives.

This post wasn’t very off-topic, since I usually will try to create a “bridge” between existing topics and new ones. Introducing new topics is necessary to avoid conflicts between some sets of ideas, those ideas we normally have as a person and those that are useful in business. And, I don’t have any intention of writing professional articles about this stuff.



#72

M_Norway

Dec 28th, 2011 at 8:25 am  M_Norway(Q)

An example of different viewpoints.

I see this blog as a business, rather than as a blog. That’s because I never have done any blogging myself, but I have a lot of experience in business. Usually I won’t change viewpoint unless it’s necessary for some reasons, because business usually have more interesting ideas.

Another reason for seing this blog as a business is because the topics relates to business. Most “pro-bloggers” relates more to non-business stuff, they merely try to make money out of affiliates and advertisement, or other related stuff, while the contents in their blogs isn’t very related to business.

A third reason is because I have evaluated the need in this market (without checking details). I have identified that there is a need for this basic business idea, “Delivering unbiased reviews” of something. This specific market (MLM) is usually overcrowded with biased reviews from people trying to recruit you.

I therefore believe in this idea. The idea itself should work as some sort of “business idea”, if we’re able to temporarily ignore money for a while (blogs usually don’t generate much money).

Then I temporarily have to take you over to other ideas, if you’re still interested? It may be worth trying to think “outside the box”, just to get some other perspective on the ideas we already have.

It may be worth googling “Huffington Post sold” and do some other superficial research into different ideas, and see if some of the principles used by others can be applied to your own ideas. “Huffington Post to be sold to AOL for $315m” and “Bloggers take legal action over Huffington Post sale” should be among the first hits. Of course, I don’t consider the same potential here, but I still prefer to think of it as a “business” rather than a blog.

Back to reality.
Ideas are fine, but reality is usually harder. Still, I think people should “play with ideas” from time to time, and then return to reality. This works fine as long as we don’t fall in love with our own ideas, and starts to ignore reality. It may be needed as a necessary step to accept ideas from “outside the box”.

This off-topic post is part of “introducing new sets of ideas in a market”. I do not follow any specific plan here, unless we consider “go briefly into some topics” to be a plan. The stuff is usually aimed towards specific groups of readers, and they usually have the same ideas themselves.



#73

M_Norway

Jan 6th, 2012 at 3:56 am  M_Norway(Q)

@anju
I’m basically trying to offer you some information on how to “sell” your own work, in the meaning “prevent it from being deleted” and “make people feel it’s acceptable and valuable” – related to the work you do here.

I use the word “sell” as a common description for a lot of different areas, and these areas are usually not related to “selling a product”. Usually it’s in the meaning “make people feel an idea is acceptable” and some similar descriptions.

Here’s one valuable information:
* Oz is running two different blogs, and they both need to be updated regularly. This means it will be difficult to “sell” comments that requires lots of work to answer.

If you want to protect your work and prevent it from being deleted you’ll have to do some “additional selling” first, “sell” some other ideas before you post comments that may require lots of work to answer.

That “additional selling” usually needs to be done before it’s needed, to give people some time to accept different ideas. I can’t focus on that topic right now, because it needs some analysing first.

———
I’m doing a “sales job” right here and now, trying to “sell” some different ideas to you. To make this “sales job” work I’ll have to see some things from your viewpoint, and also try to find some “areas of interest” that may work.

Preventing comments from being deleted may not be the area you’re most interested in, but I had to select an area that was “current” rather than “more interesting”.

You have interesting communication skills, and you have also added a lot of much needed activity to this blog. I believe it will work even better if I give you some information or some ideas.

Blogs usually depends a lot on activity from readers. I may be able to “sell the idea” of how your activity have been valuable and will continue to be so, from many different viewpoints – making the idea more “sellable” than if people are focused on more narrow viewpoints.

Most blogs will become boring if the readers doesn’t create any activity among themselves, like some “internal discussions” and similar stuff – within what most people will accept as “reasonable activity”. You have contributed a lot to let Oz and Chang practisize their different communication skills, as far as I can see. 🙂

Most people needs some differences in opinions to activate their own opinions, so you have probably made a few people more productive than they else would have been (over a period of 4 months or so?).

I will basically try to “sell” some of these different viewpoints to you, and how they can be applied within your own area of interests (like protecting comments from being deleted).



#74

anju agarwal

Jan 6th, 2012 at 4:09 am  anju agarwal(Q)

hello norway

please ,please ,check out sheldon, on the big bang theory on TV.

you are amazingly similar.

you tattle on ,like a computer program.

nevertheless, you’re a fence sitter, so god bless you.



#75

M_Norway

Jan 6th, 2012 at 6:09 am  M_Norway(Q)

@anju
Fence sitter in relation to different schemes? Yes, that’s right, I’m usually not very attracted to them, but I may like some of the ideas.

Similarities with Sheldon? Sorry, I have only watched a few episodes, so I’m not able to identify similarities. Most people think I’m more similar to “Mr. Bean” (Rowan Atkinson), as far as I know. 🙂

Sheldon seems to be very dependant on specific matters, and will usually get very “disturbed” by small variations from his sets of ideas?



#76

M_Norway

Jan 11th, 2012 at 8:31 am  M_Norway(Q)

@anju
Some ideas are not possible to “sell” to the audience of this blog, like me, Oz or K. Chang – because we analyse the ideas before we accept them.

The words “sell” and “selling” is used in the meaning “make people believe in an idea”, “make them accept an idea”, “make them be willing to support an idea” and similar meanings.

One part that isn’t “sellable” here is the part that includes “SpeakAsia will rise again”, that some ruling from Supreme Court or something will clear the company from all criminal charges and make it legal.

Another part that isn’t “sellable” here is that the business plan will become legal if you add more parts to it. As far as I can see the basic plan will still be illegal even if they add more products.

Other ideas that aren’t “sellable” here is some “human rights” stuff, where people have ideas that running a pyramid or Ponzi scheme is some kind of “human right”. These ideas will have to be modified heavily to be accepted.

You can’t expect to “win” a fight within these areas, and an experienced warrior should preferrably focus on battles he or she can win. Knowing which battles to fight and how to fight them is essential.

One idea is acceptable, the idea that it’s up to the court system to decide the outcome of this case, and that ‘opinions’ stated on a blog won’t change much. Most people will willingly accept this idea without any resistance.

Some ideas may become more “sellable” if they are modified, or they may contain parts that are more “sellable” than others. Knowing how to identify if an idea is “sellable” and why it is “sellable” may be essential in a battle (discussion).



#77

anju agarwal

Jan 11th, 2012 at 12:38 pm  anju agarwal(Q)

some ruling from Supreme Court or something will clear the company from all criminal charges and make it legal.-norway

first sieve the ‘fact’ from ‘fiction’.

there are NO criminal charges against the company.

there are ‘allegations’ of criminality, which are fed to the press at regular intervals to create a ‘perception’ of fraud.

Another part that isn’t “sellable” here is that the business plan will become legal if -norway

take a step back please. the business model is ‘already legal’ and will continue to remain so when a whole range of products are added.

indian prize chit and money circulation act deems a scheme illegal if
recruitment is compulsory.
there is no revenue except for participation fees.

you do not ‘believe’ that saol has additional income avenues and are justified in doing so, since you have not seen the business documents of the company.but i have ,and our courts have, so i maintain the company is well within the framework of the PCMC act.

so this point of the company being ‘illegal’ or ‘legal’ cannot be settled in ‘your’ favor at this juncture.

i suggest we put it on the ‘fence’ for now ,and see which way it falls once the courts give their ruling.

meanwhile in the interests of fairness ,maybe you should refrain from calling the company ‘illegal’?

Other ideas that aren’t “sellable” here is some “human rights” stuff-norway

if the business is proved illegal ,i agree there is no violation of human rights.

on the other hand if the business is proved legal,there is a definite cause for violation of human rights.why were the govt agencies so careless to take away the work and income of a ‘large’ group of citizens.should they have not invited the company for discussions and deliberations before throwing in the towel?

hence norway deciding what is ‘sellable’ or not in this case would amount to prejudging the matter and jumping the gun.

i’m afraid i can agree only with your last point that it is up to the court systems to decide the outcome.

i ‘fervently’ believe that ‘opinionated’ opinions on this blog won’t change anything.

Knowing how to identify if an idea is “sellable” and why it is “sellable” may be essential in a battle (-norway

it is already identified that the ‘idea’ of saol is totally ‘sold’ to 1.5 million people which explains why there is so much support for the company and no complaints barring one.

why this idea is ‘sellable’ is an intangible idea and is similar to the idea of what makes a book a best seller or a movie a blockbuster.also there is a feeling of being ‘persecuted’ which unites people for an idea.



#78

Oz

Jan 11th, 2012 at 12:55 pm  Oz(Q)

the business model is ‘already legal’ and will continue to remain so when a whole range of products are added.

indian prize chit and money circulation act deems a scheme illegal if recruitment is compulsory.

Just so people don’t get confused, here’s what the Act actually states:

“Money circulation scheme” means any scheme, by whatever name called, for the making of quick or easy money, or for the receipt of any money or valuable thing as the con- sideration for a promise to pay money, on any event or contingency relative or applicable to the enrolment of members into the scheme, whether or not such money or thing is derived from the entrance money of the members of such scheme or periodical subscriptions.

“Prize chit” includes any transaction or arrangement by whatever name called under which a person collects whether as a promoter, foreman, agent or in any other capacity, monies in one lump sum or in instalments by way of contributions or subscriptions or by sale of units, certificates or other in- struments or in any other manner or as membership fees.

It says nothing about compsulsory recruitment.

Note: These comments have nothing to do with Pro-U or Automatic Millionaire, so I’m going to nuke any further discussion of Speak Asia here.



#79

M_Norway

Jan 15th, 2012 at 2:53 am  M_Norway(Q)

@Oz
You don’t have any other solutions either, for topics that are off-topic to an article, but still within the range of “MLM and related topics”. Being able to provide solutions in a market is usually a vital skill when you run a business. 🙂

Note: These comments have nothing to do with Pro-U or Automatic Millionaire, so I’m going to nuke any further discussion of Speak Asia here.

Some “signs” of people looking for different solutions have been present for some weeks, and mostly from me. That’s because I’m used to create new topics when needed, like we usually do in a forum.

Blogs works differently, since comments usually will be related to the main topic in an article. This will also set some limitations for the contributions from different users, and will also set some limitations for the audience you will be able to attract.

I’m simply “testing” some topics designed for a wider audience, using this old thread as a temporarily solution.

By the way, my comment was focused on

* if specific ideas are “sellable” or not?

* if they’re possible to “sell” in exactly this market?

* my next step would have been “How to sell them?”, but only after having identified some “sellable” ideas.

SpeakAsia was only used as an example. It’s easier to use a real case as an example than to focus on some theory.



#80

Oz

Jan 15th, 2012 at 8:37 am  Oz(Q)

I can always publish something as a guest post if a reader believes they have something or an idea/article they want to contribute.

Mind you I’d reserve all rights to decide not to publish the submitted material if I thought it was going to be just marketing or a sales pitch.

I’ve had a few marketers approach me about this but have declined to accept any submissions from them as it was clear they had a strong marketing focus behind their submission request.

By submitting and publishing an idea of yours as a seperate article you’re also more likely to get a specific discussion on it as well. I don’t think of old articles on here as not relevant. People might use them for years to come for research purposes on new opportunities or to get backstory on opportunity admins or some of the old MLM opportunities themselves.

Once an opportunity dies alot of the marketing material dies with it and then apart from a few YouTube videos there isn’t all that much information available about them. Over the years I’m hoping to change that with the opportunities I’ve looked at.



#81

Linda-PA-USA

May 4th, 2012 at 9:07 am  Linda-PA-USA(Q)

So what is the latest on Pro U?



#82

M_Norway

May 4th, 2012 at 7:50 pm  M_Norway(Q)

@Linda-PA-USA

They do still exist under one of the new names (PRO U, PRO Elite or whatever they call it now). The next Master Marketing Event (MME9) is 30th June 2012.

Saturday, June 30, 2012 (9am-5pm) at the Westin Dallas Fort Worth.
[..]
The price of this day-long collection of the best in the business is only $249.

As far as I could see from the marketing, they are still following the same old ideas of “fake it till you make it”, with more focus on how successful they are (pretends to be) than methods that actually works.

Carbon Copy Pro is interesting in SOME ways.
They had some success between 2006/2007 and 2009/2010, and they have also failed miserably (using exactly the same methods). It’s possible to study them and extract a few methods that actually works. It’s also possible to extract methods that only works temporarily, and eventually will lead to failure.

This won’t be useful for most people, but it will probably become more interesting when they have some similar experiences themselves (about methods that only works temporarily, and leads to failure).

Master Marketing Event 9

Master Leadership Mentor Justin Woolf and a LIVE COACHING session with the PRO U Leadership Corps
• Award-winning Crystal Curtis on Video Marketing
• Cherie Yvette on Advertising to Generate Leads
• Ann Sieg on Webinar Marketing
• Matthew and Christine Kominiak on Working a Business With Your Partner

And of course, you’ll get to meet Jay Kubassek!

PRO U is following in the same old path, with more focus on WHOM the speechers are than WHAT they have to offer. It will usually mean they have a MOTIVATION-oriented audience, instead of an audience looking for actual knowledge about something.

To show the difference, I would have used more “balanced” marketing to be able to attract a wider audience, more balanced between WHO and WHAT:

• Award-winning Crystal Curtis on Video Marketing
+ A short section selling Crystal Curtis
+ A longer section selling the content

They have too much focus on “Award-winning” and the person herself, and very little focus on what they really are offering. It reminds me more of selling “meet your favourite celebrity” to a fan-club than someone trying to sell video marketing education to a skilled audience.

The same principle will also apply to the statement “And of course, you’ll get to meet Jay Kubassek!”. I’m sure it will feel like “the thrill of a lifetime” for some to meet Jay Kubassek in person, but a more professional audience will ask for what he has to offer this time.

“Jay Kubassek has analysed his failures, and made corrections” would probably have been a more interesting topic than “meet Jay Kubassek in person”.

CONCLUSION?
My impression is that they are probably still deep down in “the valley of death” as a company. It seems like they are trying to replicate a former success, following exactly the same methods as before, without replacing the bad ideas with good ones.

My impression is only based on viewing ONE webpage this time, but I have analysed what I saw on that page and compared it to their previous methods and history. They are still trying to fake something.



#83

THE MAN

May 24th, 2012 at 5:12 am  THE MAN(Q)

my girl works there right now and I’m worried she’s working for a crap company.

I have to hear every night how wonderful Jay Kubbasack is and I’m beginning to wonder if he can walk on water.



#84

Oz

May 24th, 2012 at 8:14 am  Oz(Q)

Sounds like she’s a bit… er smitten.

If she’s that enthusiastic about it guess you’ll just have to ride it out till she runs out of people to recruit. You have my sympathies.



#85

Patrick

May 24th, 2012 at 9:08 am  Patrick(Q)

Note to THE MAN.

Sorry about errors in prev post, didn’t intend to be anonymous, touchy enter key here. Mod can delete the other post if they choose to.

But ya, seems like he DOES walk on water, but remember that “**it” floats too!



#86

M_Norway

May 25th, 2012 at 12:11 am  M_Norway(Q)

THE MAN:
my girl works there right now and I’m worried she’s working for a crap company.

“Working there” as in a JOB, or as in “have joined it in a business opportunity”?

I don’t consider it to be a crap company. If you’re talking about a job, they can probably offer lots of interesting work and experience. As a business opportunity, it will most likely drain you for money.

I have to hear every night how wonderful Jay Kubbasack is and I’m beginning to wonder if he can walk on water.

Nope, he can’t. I believe Jay Kubassek is using lots of methods for self suggestion – “make your brain believe in something”. These methods will both work and fail.

Look at Donald Trump. He consider himself to be a very attractive guy (fysically), related to his use of self suggestions (not because of his money). He may be able to fool some people, but many others are not very impressed. Lots of people will also make jokes about him because of that.

We become less impressed when we know people are reading “positive affirmations” loudly each day (or are using visualization techniques), to be able to pump up the imaginary picture they have of themselves. But the method works.

The method will also make them fail, so most of us should probably avoid using methods like that. The method will make them fail when their imaginary picture is in too much conflict with reality.

Another one you can compare it to is James Arthur Ray, the motivational speaker sentenced to 2 years in prison because of the “sweatlodge deaths”. He is using similar methods before he enters the stage as a motivational speaker. There’s a few problems related to these methods that makes them less valuable for most people.



#87

George

May 25th, 2012 at 12:52 am  George(Q)

It seems that now they are only identify as PRO, Ann Sieg a big networker is Promotling it very strongly, I just got an email from her.

Tonight’s webinar on how to earn $10,000 to $50,000 per month in weeks or months instead of years by partnering up with me and The Renegade Team starts in just a few hours at 9pm ET.

There’s still time to join us, if you dial in early.

Here’s the access link:

(Ozedit: link removed)

-Ann

P.S. – If you’re concerned about your family’s income in the coming years in this economy, the information on
this webinar is mandatory.



#88

M_Norway

May 25th, 2012 at 8:07 pm  M_Norway(Q)

George:
It seems that now they are only identify as PRO, Ann Sieg a big networker is Promotling it very strongly, I just got an email from her.

I considered them to be close to death already in 2010/2011, but I’ll guess they might have hit the bottom and now are trying to climb up again.

The “close to death” is reflected in this thread. It was inactive for so long time that I used it as a solution for some off-topic stuff, expecting all the interest to have disappeared for forever. 🙂

What I consider to be of some value in CCPro are some of their sales methods. As a business opportunity it is closer to be a “promotional pyramid” that already has failed once or twice.

To get rid of the pyramid scheme label they will need to focus on external customers rather than recruitment. To get rid of other negative labels they will have to do something with their marketing methods.

“Promotional pyramid” is used here as a definition for a business model that distributes money among participants in a chain recruiting process, with some products or services attached to it, but where the main motive for participating is the income opportunity.

SALES METHODS
The working sales methods are reflected in a few of the comments here, so you can get them for free if you don’t want to pay for them. I can probably identify a few of them and WHY they work.

They also have some methods causing trouble, and that’s also WHY they have been down in the valley of death for quite some time. I can identify a few of those methods too, and WHY they eventually will fail.

Most of the methods are “trick the brain into believing something”, so they will fail if you don’t know how to use them. Some methods will also fail if someone recognizes them as “methods” instead of being “the real thing”.

The methods can also be found in Wikipedia, both under “Sales methods” and “Confidence tricks” for some of them. 🙂



#89

M_Norway

May 26th, 2012 at 12:25 am  M_Norway(Q)

M_Norway:
SALES METHODS
The working sales methods are reflected in a few of the comments here, so you can get them for free if you don’t want to pay for them.

A couple of methods can be identified in Bryan’s comment, where they are “reflected”.

Bryan:
For every sale you bring in of PRO, you will receive a one time $150 payment, PLUS a $30 dollar/month payment. So, you do the math. You make 100 sales, and you have generated $15,000….plus $3,000 coming in as a residual income EVERY month!

The two methods I can identify there are:
1. “Foot in the door technique”.
2. “Use the customers own imagination”

The methods are only reflected, he is repeating them as a convinced customer rather than as a sales-man, but he is partly repeating some of the arguments that got HIM on the hook.

To be useful, you’ll have to know where and when the methods can be used, and also when you’ll have to replace them with other methods. CCPro contineously failed when it came to identifying when to NOT use methods like these, where they only will cause problems, and where you’ll have to replace the methods with other methods to avoid problems. Instead they blamed the problems on the “prospects”, making the situation even worse.

“Foot in the door” is a psychological trick, “trick the brain into believing in something” (using some knowledge about how the brain works or something). Some prospects will not accept methods like this, it will only cause frustration.

Psychological tricks works on a subconscious level. You are more likely to repeat a pattern rather than change it, so when you have said “yes” to a small commitment you are more likely to say yes to a bigger one. The brain will trick you into believing you have some preferences for the product or whatever is offered you, since you already have said yes to something related to it.

The trick will only work on people who willingly accepts the method. On other prospects it will usually cause frustration. “On a subconscious level” will mean they don’t even know WHY they became frustrated, and they will probably cause lots of damage to your business if you don’t solve their problem. CCPro failed miserably in those situations.

To be able to solve problems like that, you will need to use other “gurus” than the ones you can find in CCPro, or else you will only repeat the same pattern with problems building themselves up in the near future. Some of the people who causes trouble can cost you many times more than what you earn using the methods.



#90

Joshua Ambroz

Jun 1st, 2012 at 1:34 am  Joshua Ambroz(Q)

Bravo for Oz and M_Norway…BRAVO!



#91

AnnMarie Miller

Jul 25th, 2012 at 1:49 am  AnnMarie Miller(Q)

so the true question becomes what can be done for those that have invested and lost in this scam?

We gave Micheal Force a whopping $70,000 and when he got the money he cut all ties. no phone calls no emails, nothing. Even talked to the Iowa state AG and was told hmm. nothing can be done.

This cannot be the way it ends for us. He took everything, gave nothing in return and now we are more in debt that before. There has to be something that can be done. Any advise would. be greatly appreciated and wonderful..



#92

Scott Grigg

Aug 10th, 2012 at 3:33 am  Scott Grigg(Q)

I was with CCPRO, now known as ProElite for about a year. The biggest scam ever. If you want to lose money, get into this scam. I posted a review of my experience on my blog.

First, the facts. I got into Pro by paying for the basic membership, the silver. You have to advertise like crazy to convince anyone to spend a couple grand and even then they are never going to make it back.

In the group I was in, NO ONE, not one person, made money in ProElite. They lost money. The truth is, PROElite was about $150 a month. MLSP (MyLeadSystemPro) is one-third of that with far better education. If you are looking merely for education in internet marketing, etc. try MLSP.

If you want to lose money, try PRO. I should have realized when I went to the convention in May 2011 and everyone at our table was less than six months into it that is was a scam. There was virtually no one there that had been in PRO a year or more. Reason: they lost money and got out.

In our group, led by the now departed Lena Bjorna, not one, (not even one) person made more than they put in. Some people formed groups in an effort offset ad costs etc. but I am guessing once you do the math and figure out the split, well even they failed to make much more than they would at a part time job, LOL.

As far as Ann Sieg…what a fraud. Anyone who would tell their downline they can make money at PRO, at least more than they spend every month, sure as hell knows better.

People like Ann Sieg, who jump from one biz opp to the next one while trying to convince their downlines this is the real McCoy make me sick. When one of PRO’s top earner left last year, he posted this blog, which tells you a LOT about PRO. http://jefflernerproject.com/in-response-to-certain-emails-and-other-pervasive-nonsense-floating-around/

Yes, this is my real name!



#93

Scott Grigg

Aug 14th, 2012 at 4:47 am  Scott Grigg(Q)

@AnneMarie..I don’t know which state Force lives in, but I would find an attorney in the city in which he lives and file a suit in Circuit Court for the full $70K.

And then, I would send out a press release in his city about he and his business. And then, I would get on every MLM website I could and write about your experience. Then I would file a story with ripoffreport.com and tell them. The more people who see it, the worse you hurt these con artists.



#94

Scott Grigg

Aug 14th, 2012 at 4:53 am  Scott Grigg(Q)

By the way, if corporate compliance at PRO would like to debate I’d love it. Let’s talk figures here, shall we, LOL?



#95

M_Norway

Aug 14th, 2012 at 6:54 am  M_Norway(Q)

Scott Grigg:
@AnneMarie..I don’t know which state Force lives in, but I would find an attorney in the city in which he lives and file a suit in Circuit Court for the full $70K.

I agree in that part, but I don’t know anything about which strategy to use. Finding an attorney in his home town sounded OK.

The first priority should be to take care of the “matherialistic” issues before taking care of “emotional” issues = try to get your money back before you even think of revenge in some ways.

AnnMarie Miller:
We gave Micheal Force a whopping $70,000 and when he got the money he cut all ties. no phone calls no emails, nothing. Even talked to the Iowa state AG and was told hmm. nothing can be done.

Send a neutral and factual email, and ask for his version of the story. An answer will probably verify some parts of your own story, or it may even contradict some parts of it. But start with trying to get a NEUTRAL dialogue first.

Keep it neutral and factual, to avoid making the other party become too defensive. Try to get a meaningful answer from his viewpoint first.

This is my experience from sales and customer service. I will first need to get the other party’s viewpoint before I even get a tiny chance to move them in any direction. I will have to be “moveable” myself in order to move others (finding solutions both parties can agree on).



#96

AnnMarie Miller

Aug 18th, 2012 at 2:49 pm  AnnMarie Miller(Q)

@M_Norway- Emails go unanswered. even from the beginning when he first received the money. Nothing was returned, phone calls, emails, and facebook messages.

about 2 weeks later my husband was “unfriended” and blocked from sending him emails and messages. we were left with phone calls, and after repeatedly calling and getting no answer, he finally just stopped calling.

@Scott- getting an attorney in his city sounds like a great idea, but with no funds, would an attorney even look at us?

The Iowa Attorney General told us there was nothing from his point that could be done. but I will try to find his hometown and see what we can do that way.

This has left us seriously in dire straights. there really is no extra money around, even with all the jobs he is working and the little I make as a teacher, well we barely have enough to make ends meet most months.

I really appreciate all the suggestions. Something honestly has to be done to get this stopped.

AnnMarie



#97

PRO U

Aug 23rd, 2012 at 4:24 am  PRO U(Q)

@AnnMarie- For concerns regarding PRO U and it’s products and services, contact support@prou.co.

We will help you in whatever way we can, however, for questions regarding purchases made to Mr Force, you will need to contact him directly.



#98

Bruce Wayne

Aug 24th, 2012 at 11:14 pm  Bruce Wayne(Q)

AnnMarie – The phone number to Pro U (which they conveniently did not offer up) is 732-345-8590



#99

Bruce Wayne

Aug 24th, 2012 at 11:16 pm  Bruce Wayne(Q)

Michael Force was a highly touted ‘mentor’ at Pro U. Why is Pro U not responsible for purchases made through him? Please explain



#100

AnnMarie Miller

Aug 26th, 2012 at 11:26 am  AnnMarie Miller(Q)

@Bruce– Thanks for the phone number. Monday we wills tart making the calls.

@PRO U– We have tried repeatedly to contact Michael Force. He conveniently does nothing to return calls emails or any social media. Actually he BLOCKED my husband from his face book as to HIDE from the questions we have for him.

He is associated with PRO U… Acted as a mentor for PRO U, you would think PRO U would be accountable for his actions in one way or another.



#101

Bruce Wayne

Sep 5th, 2012 at 10:57 pm  Bruce Wayne(Q)

PRO U as a company is a joke. See this link: http://prou.co/personal-development/the-best-way-to-wake-up-is-to-stay-awake/

Yesterday I woke up in Black Rock City, the site of the Burning Man event in the Nevada desert. The Burning Man is one of the most unique and extreme events you could ever experience.

50,000 people travel to Nevada from all around the world to camp out in the harshest, most extreme conditions anywhere. There’s no signal and no technology. No phones or computers.

While AnnMarie and her family lose $70,000….the company CEO is taking vacations to “find himself” or some other such nonsense.

– PRO U – How about you answer to these charges?



#102

M_Norway

Sep 17th, 2012 at 7:26 am  M_Norway(Q)

Bruce Wayne:
the company CEO is taking vacations to “find himself” or some other such nonsense.

At least he has started to look in some of the most obvious places to “find himself”, far out in the desert (somewhere far away from where a normal leader is expected to be).

The logic seems to be correct, he is probably “out there” somewhere, or maybe “up there in the blue”, but who cares?



#103

Patrick Gaines

Sep 17th, 2012 at 8:38 am  Patrick Gaines(Q)

I left a similiar comment before in the link above, but it got “moderated” (read censored).

At least out there, Jay Kubasucks will find others of his same kind of maggots and cockroaches amongst all the other creepy crawly yucky desert creatures.

These guys are scumbags extraordinaire, the very worst of the very worst.



#104

Clark Kent

Nov 26th, 2012 at 2:26 pm  Clark Kent(Q)

The last I knew, Michael Force was living somewhere around Redding California. Good Luck



#105

Bruce Wayne

Dec 6th, 2012 at 5:58 am  Bruce Wayne(Q)

No thats incorrect. The tool lives in Boca Raton , FL. He’s living quite well off scamming other people out of their money.



#106

Been There

Dec 21st, 2012 at 4:19 pm  Been There(Q)

I was a member for 2 1/2 years mostly during the WMI era. Jay is probably the biggest “wanna be” I have ever met in person. He tries so hard to come off as a badass race-car driving film maker marketing expert but the sad truth is that he is simply white trash.

At the WMI birthday bash (right before the split of CCPro and WMI) Jay got up on the podi and debuted his new “10” tattoo that looks like the Roman numeral X. Everybody gasped because it was located right on his arm and made it look like he was just released from Folsom Prison or something. Yet he thought it represented something so amazing.

He stood up on stage talking about himself the entire time even going so far as to talk smack about famous New Yorker author Malcolm Gladwell and how the book Outliers is bullshit, and how he works out at the same gym as Malcolm in NYC and he could beat him anyway, ect. Arrogant!!!

Yet he runs this company. Just know when you lie with dogs you get fleas.



#107

Robert M.

Feb 10th, 2013 at 9:19 am  Robert M.(Q)

You guys are scaring me….a little….NO A LOT!!!!

I’ve been involved for 7 years…way back to the Wealth Master days. But shortly after I enrolled (as a M2 member) I encountered a severe case of food poisoning which left me somewhat of a mental basket case.

A lot of time and money spent, including dues to CarbonCopyPro, I have recovered enough to try to make up for lost time, and now this….WOW!!!

Today being Saturday I’ll have the weekend to plan a strategy. My life just got changed….again. I’ve got quite a list of names (Michael Force, Jay Kubisek, Ann Seileg…on and on) that won’t be first in order.



#108

Patrick

Feb 10th, 2013 at 10:00 am  Patrick(Q)

Note that they’ll continue to take your money FOR SURE, there’s no issue there.

HOW can anyone spend so much time around these creeps and not smell something fishy?

Jay Kubasucks is about slimy as they come!



#109

M_Norway

Feb 10th, 2013 at 11:37 am  M_Norway(Q)

Robert M.:
You guys are scaring me….a little….NO A LOT!!!!

Both CCPro and WMI have partially collapsed in 2010/2011. They ran into some trouble in Norway in 2009 and 2010, leading to a separation in December 2010, leading to all sorts of trouble, leading to member flee in both organisations.

But they might have recovered partly from that situation now.

We don’t have much UPDATED information for any of them. We have ONE article about Carbon Copy PRO (this one).

For WMI, I believe the total number of articles is between 30 and 40. You will find them in the menus on the right side here (top of page, scroll Page Down a couple of times, look for Wealth Masters International in the list of companies).

WHAT HAPPENED IN NORWAY?
CarbonCopy PRO received alot of negative attention in the last months of 2009. In February 2010, WMI-consultants located in Norway (Per Gunnar Hoem’s downline) decided to drop CCPro in their marketing and market WMI directly, while WMI-consultants located outside Norway (Lena Bjorna’s downline) decided to stay loyal to CCPro.

The CCPro group lost that battle. The WMI group managed to increase its sales when WMI was marketed directly. CCPro probably lost most of its revenue from the Norwegian market within a few months. I believe other WMI consultants in other countries copied the same idea, market WMI directly.

That’s the background story. In December 2010, WMI severed its ties to CCPro with a few days notice, after it had discovered attempts from CCPro to recruit WMI members to PRO U’s competing program Automatic Millionaire.

In March 2011, WMI was banned in Norway for being a promotional pyramid scheme. The decision was appealed, but it was confirmed by the appellate authority in December 2011.

Authorities in New Zealand also started to look into WMI’s activities in 2011, but I don’t know how that story ended. Banning in one country will often spread to other countries, but WMI was already collapsing globally when New Zealand decided to look into it.

You guys are scaring me….

AnnMarie Miller’s story scares me, the story about Michael Force (comment #91 and a couple of following comments). In most other cases, people have received SOMETHING in exchange for their money.



#110

Bruce Wayne

Mar 20th, 2013 at 3:23 am  Bruce Wayne(Q)

Jay Kubassek’s newest scam: digitalexpertsacademy.com

He went from NYC to the Jersey Shore to the UK. Besides being an arrogant rip-off artist the guy’s a tool.



#111

M_Norway

Mar 20th, 2013 at 6:22 am  M_Norway(Q)

Bruce Wayne:
Jay Kubassek’s newest scam …

The “Promote” page is indirectly leading to “Six Figure Mentors” (thesixfigurementors.com), STUART ROSS. The audience in the video there are “typical British” rather than “typical Americans”.

DEA is using the same idea as all the other “high ticket, high commission” educational pyramid schemes, so it could have been Jay Kubassek’s newest business.

It has 4 memberships levels:
$2,499 Silver
$4,999 Gold
$9,999 Platinum
$19,999 Black
TOTAL $37,495 (a little cheaper than Automatique Millionaire)

Six Figure Mentors + DEA is a copy of CCPro + WMI, only with a different type of education.



#112

Patrick

Mar 21st, 2013 at 7:46 pm  Patrick(Q)

Just found out that Michael Hamburger, formerly of WMI (and a former buddy of Jay Kubasucks), is now scamming people with a Get Rich Quick Real Estate scam.



#113

M_Norway

Mar 21st, 2013 at 8:56 pm  M_Norway(Q)

Patrick:
now scamming people with a Get Rich Quick Real Estate scam

We know about it. We had a quick look at it before it really launched. It’s probably posted something under “Avant” in the company list (the menus on the right side).

He’s probably following Jay Kubassek’s example in post #101, “trying to find himself” somewhere in the business world. We haven’t heard anything from him in a long time, so he’s probably out there somewhere, still looking.



#114

M_Norway

Mar 21st, 2013 at 9:05 pm  M_Norway(Q)

Patrick:
Just found out that Michael Hamburger

https://behindmlm.com/companies/avant/real-estate-worldwide-review-a-3-up-15000-club/



#115

Bruce Wayne

Mar 21st, 2013 at 11:29 pm  Bruce Wayne(Q)

are victims still trying to track down the scam artist/conman extraordinaire Jay Kubassek?

I have his contact info and will gladly publish it



#116

Jeff

Jun 3rd, 2013 at 7:55 am  Jeff(Q)

I wish I would have found this website earlier when CCPro/ProU was recruiting me into this scam. In all, I say I lost over $45,000. I was lied to from the very beginning–not mislead, but flat-out lied to. There is a special place in hell for these people.

I have to admit, I’m not duped very easily. The main reason I joined was because it was backed by a celebrity finance person, David Bach. I figured how could it be a scam if he was involved. Boy was I wrong. Does anyone know why he is no longer with the company? Did he also benefit from this scam?

I am speaking with lawyers now to figure out my options. They like my case. I was going to chalk this up to a poor business decision, but I can’t let these scumbags get away with this.



#117

Patrick

Jun 3rd, 2013 at 9:17 am  Patrick(Q)

When you sue, there are PLENTY of people pulling for you to get these lying cheating scammers.

Don’t forget to include David Bach in your suit, he knew what he was doing.

I didn’t lose any money, I used common sense to figure it our before that happened, but I know a couple who lost $40,000 and they have not been the same since.

These scammers deserve to get more than just fines and penalties, they deserve JAIL TIME for what they have done to so many people.

Jay Kubasucks is a (Ozedit: bit over the top there).

And, hopefully, a specially hot place in Hell for all time.



#118

Jeff

Jun 10th, 2013 at 2:25 am  Jeff(Q)

It’s ironic how ProU says it’s NOT an MLM company, instead a direct sales company. However, it always comes up on sites such as this one associated with MLM companies. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it’s a duck!

My point: many states have rules against MLM schemers, such as the state currently reside. If found guilty of an MLM scheme, the damages start at DOUBLE! People should look into this.

Time is running out on these people. Karma’s a BITCH!



#119

K. Chang

Jun 10th, 2013 at 7:12 am  K. Chang(Q)

Jeff: f it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it’s a duck!

And it will be shot like a duck. 🙂



#120

M_Norway

Aug 9th, 2013 at 5:22 am  M_Norway(Q)

There’s a new article here now, “WMI files lawsuit over gutting of business”. WMI is suing Jay Kubassek, Aaron Parkinson, Jeff Lerner, Michael Force, Aaron & Sophia Rashkin¨for up to $10 million in damage for the situation in 2010.

https://behindmlm.com/companies/wealth-masters-international/wmi-files-lawsuit-over-gutting-of-business/

Aaron & Sophia Rashkin are counter-suing WMI for operating a pyramid scheme, in what I believe is a strategic lawsuit designed to neutralize the initial lawsuit.

I don’t think any of them will be very eager to defend anything in court. It’s a lose – lose situation where none of them actually can WIN anything. The case will probably be resolved outside court without any monetary transaction, but with a “If you will withdraw your lawsuit, I will withdraw mine”.



#121

Patrick

Aug 9th, 2013 at 6:33 am  Patrick(Q)

I like the comment I read somewhere in a link related to all this stuff:

Ruhroh…



#122

Aaron

Oct 6th, 2013 at 8:57 am  Aaron(Q)

Hi everyone… I had a chance to review these comments about ProU/CCPro and noticed that many of the comments are very familiar to the way I was treated.

I got involved in early 2011 and they convinced me to join the Black level ($40,000). I’m not going to go into details, because there are way too many. I will say I was lied to from the very beginning and once I paid, my “personal mentoring” ceased (Jordan Crowder).

I did not get a chance to attend any retreats that I paid for as I was not given sufficient notice and could not make last minute accommodations with my busy schedule. I asked for a refund, but was denied several times.

After speaking with some members that attended these so-called private retreats, many of them said they learned very little and have since quit ProU. To this day, I have not attended any ProU retreats that I paid for.

I am now suing ProU and Jay Kubassek. We are now in the Discovery phase of the lawsuit, which basically means we are gathering information about how this company is a scam hidden behind a “business opportunity.”

I am asking anyone on this site that has been screwed by this company to reply. I am spending the money to sue these guys, but I need your help to stop these people from hurting others. I plan to check this–as well as other websites–daily.

By the way, Aaron is my REAL name, and I live just outside Kansas City, Missouri.



#123

M_Norway

Oct 6th, 2013 at 12:33 pm  M_Norway(Q)

Aaron:
I am now suing ProU and Jay Kubassek. We are now in the Discovery phase of the lawsuit, which basically means we are gathering information about how this company is a scam hidden behind a “business opportunity.”

It’s a pyramid scheme by definition, but your case involves other aspects than that? You haven’t received / couldn’t receive the events you paid for?

This thread is very little active. I updated it for a period of time for why CCPro collapsed in Norway and similar details. I have not looked into ProU, since the company hasn’t been very active.

Oz has covered most of the details in the article. I was more familiar with the company when it sold Wealth Masters International in 2009 and 2010. I knew several local reps I could ask about details, in a local pyramid scheme forum in Norway. None of them are active anymore.

Your lawyer may be interested in the article to get a quick overview of what the business is about. It’s written from a rather neutral viewpoint, but slightly critical (we don’t sell anything here).

One question your lawyer should ask in the disclosure should be about affiliate to customer ratio. You were recruited INTO the opportunity. Do they have any sale at all to an OUTSIDE market of consumers?

Was the focus when you were recruited on the income potential or on the education? Do you have any of the emails or other communication / marketing from the company to show to your lawyer?

As a pyramid scheme, it meets the following criterias:
* chain recruitment system YES
* consideration (payment) YES
* prospected financial gains YES
* that derives primarily from other participants YES
* rather than from sale/consumption of products/services

Your lawyer will need to evaluate the last point, if he want to use pyramid scheme as a main argument. If your main motive for buying into the program was the income opportunity rather than the education, he can clearly use that argument.

Anti pyramid scheme rules are typically organized like this (in the hierarchy inside the law):
* Consumer Protection Law
* Unfair trade practices
* Misleading trade practices
* Misleading actions or omittions (general rules)
* Promotional pyramids (specific rules)

Having an income opportunity attached to a product is misleading. It can heavily distort the consumer’s financial decisions, e.g. to buy something he normally wouldn’t have bought. That meets the general rules / “parent rules” for misleading trade practices.

100% chain recruitment systems are illegal. They can’t work logically, mathematically or in reality. The average recruiter will only be able to have 1 directly recruited (all types of chain recruitment systems will always give similar results = average 1 directly recruited). I can add something about the logic and math for that (if needed).

Exceptions from pyramid scheme rules are typically about:
* Fair trade, “exchange of values”
* Fair compensation for work, “exchange of values”

In trade, the opportunity itself holds no legal value. It’s neither a tradeable “product” nor a “service”, so you shouldn’t pay anything for it either. If the focus was on the opportunity, it indicates they have assigned a “perceived value” to that part illegally. Then they’re basically slling the opportunity itself rather than the product.

Fair compensation for work is typically about time, efforts and expenses, “what’s reasonably can be considered to be fair compensation”.

Chain rcruitment systems CAN be about fair trade / fair compensation for work, e.g. if the focus CLEARLY was on the education and the product also is sold to a similar price in a normal market (non reecruitment based).

They can also be so inexpensive that they really aren’t consumer protection cases, or the compensation can be so low that it clearly can’t act as a motivation factor. I gave a green light for one of those when a user was interested in the service itself. I considered it to be “motivational junk”, but he was interested.

I’m not a lawyer, and I have only listed what I generally know about these things. I have identified where to find it and what I can find there on a general level, not on a specific state level.



#124

Aaron

Oct 7th, 2013 at 9:38 pm  Aaron(Q)

M. NORWAY:

Thanks for the response. My lawyers have been working very hard on the points you brought up. In Missouri, pyramid schemes are illegal and damages awarded to a Plantiff can double.

However, my situation is even more simple. I paid $40,000 for the “business opportunity” and was supposed to have access to industry leaders on how to be a successful internet marketer. I realized soon after I paid that this was a scam. I did not receive any specialized training and was left out to the “wolves.”

My wife and I were scheduled to go to their bullshit retreats (which I did some checking and they offered absolutely NO value) and the only gave us less than 6 weeks to plan. We could not go. I simply want a refund.

Losing over $45,000 hurts. I feel very bad for all of the people that have been hurt by these cheating conmen. Any information you can give me that you think could help my case would be helpful. I would love to hear from some of the people in this thread that have had similar experiences as myself.

We plan to fight this to the end.



#125

M_Norway

Oct 8th, 2013 at 1:22 am  M_Norway(Q)

Aaron:
I am asking anyone on this site that has been screwed by this company to reply. I am spending the money to sue these guys, but I need your help to stop these people from hurting others. I plan to check this–as well as other websites–daily.

I don’t think you will get many replies from victims within the correct timeframe = As Soon As Possible. If you get it, you can’t exchange e-mails or personal info here, that type of info will always be deleted.

You will need a PLAN for how to handle that if you get any replies. One method is to use a forum where you can communicate via PM.

If you want any information from me, you will first need to update me on the business itself, marketing methods and other related info, “a quick overview” rather than details. I have experience from sale AND from analysing legal strategies for others, e.g. I can point out potential weak spots in a legal defense (the details you CAN build up your own case around).

One example:
WHERE and HOW the initial ad / other “initial contact method” was placed can tell something, e.g. one of the Herbalife leaders used radio ads read by popular radio hosts, directing people to WorkFromHome.com (or some similar name), where they had to fill out some personal info (minimum: email address) to get more information, where they could order (and pay for) even more information. The contact info was then sold to other people in the same group as leads.

If I know SOMETHING about the methods used, I will usually be able to guess most other details too, and potentially be able to point it out as a “weak defense” in a way a lawyer can understand it. I can potentially ADD something to an existing strategy.



#126

Patrick

Oct 8th, 2013 at 1:26 am  Patrick(Q)

Can you add a non-required website address to a post on here, then use that to contact someone?

Just wondering…



#127

M_Norway

Oct 8th, 2013 at 2:18 am  M_Norway(Q)

Patrick:
Can you add a non-required website address to a post on here, then use that to contact someone?

You can, e.g. if you have a blog or something. It will show up as a link under your user name. It’s not designed for marketing purposes as a primary function, but as a method to inform other users about your own website if anyone is interested.

Post #119 is an example. K. Chang is linking to his own blog amlmskeptic.blogspot.com, some type of “related blog” to this one. He’s a “regular contributor” here, and he sometimes have additional info / other types of info.



#128

K. Chang

Oct 8th, 2013 at 2:29 am  K. Chang(Q)

M_Norway: K. Chang is linking to his own blog amlmskeptic.blogspot.com, some type of “related blog” to this one.

I keep my email address on the blog pretty hidden though. 🙂



#129

Patrick

Oct 8th, 2013 at 6:38 am  Patrick(Q)

Once you get into a website, there are usually links to contact within it.



#130

M_Norway

Oct 8th, 2013 at 9:18 am  M_Norway(Q)

Patrick:
Once you get into a website, there are usually links to contact within it.

That’s called a “funnel” (or “reverse funnel system”). But before that, you will need to drive traffic to the website. The traffic coming in from search engines isn’t enough.

CCPro offered many junk methods to keep people busy, but methods that work okay is typically “Work from Home” ads, “Fire your boss” ads, lifestyle (if not too exaggerated) = marketing methods focusing on the opportunity itself rather than the education = it can be used in a lawsuit strategy.

The funnel system is a method to filter people. The ones eager to join an income opportunity will accept filling out something, the others will simply drop the whole idea if they don’t get the information they want immediately through normal menu choices. If I add more details to that, it can be used in a lawsuit strategy (I have many interesting details to add).

LEGAL STRATEGY isn’t solely about laws, or about having the best legal arguments and proofs. It’s also about being reasonable, fair and flexible (e.g. try to win the war, rather than each and every battle). It’s about knowledge (know the case, know the laws, know your opponent, know yourself, etc.).

CCPro / ProU / Automatique Millionaire have probably many weak spots in its legal defense system.

* Affiliate to customer ratio is probably 100:0

* Extremely misleading marketing methods

* Over priced products and services

The defense system is probably focused on the contracts and disclaimers, “people KNOW what they’re joining”. But you can’t make agreements about that you’re not operating a pyramid scheme, or make agreements about that your marketing methods as a whole aren’t misleading. You can’t make agreements about something that already is regulated in other laws, e.g. Consumer Protection Lawa.

LEGAL STRATEGY is about REALITIES, not about constructed defense systems. But that idea will also apply to attack strategies, it isn’t about cherry picking all the bad details you can find.



#131

Patrick

Oct 8th, 2013 at 10:20 am  Patrick(Q)

I am referring to PEOPLE HERE, contacting PEOPLE HERE to assist each other. When one posts on here, they have option to put their website.

ONCE I follow link to website to get onto it, I SHOULD be able to contact the owner of such a website.

Like someone reaching M_Norway, or him contacting someone else.

Geesh!



#132

Oz

Oct 8th, 2013 at 10:22 am  Oz(Q)

A proactive approach might be to seek out affiliate who, via Google searches, are revealed to be at one-time promoting the opportunity but are no longer doing so.

You could reach out to them and see if that gets you anywhere. If you contact enough people you’re likely to attract the attention of the company itself though, however if you’re publicly announcing your intent here I doubt that’s a concern.



#133

Aaron

Oct 9th, 2013 at 3:18 am  Aaron(Q)

Guys… thanks for the information.

M. Norway is correct. They are exceptionally misleading with their offer. When I began speaking with my “marketing mentor” (sorry I just laughed), they also had told me they would call all my leads and applications for me. This turned out to be a lie.

Truth is, if you told people the truth, they wouldn’t want to opt in to the program as it’s just a bunch of crap. I wasn’t in to lying and cheating people out of their money, so I quit.

Oz: I have already got ProU’s attention. I guarantee I am all over their radar and I love that! They failed to refund my money, now I am moving forward with the lawsuit. I hope they see this and many other posts I’ve made about the lawsuit. I AM NOT HIDING! And I’m definately NOT GOING AWAY.

You are more than welcome to look up the lawsuit as it is public record. I can even give you the case number. Locating these people is going to be a challenge, I know. However, the more we can get the word out, the better my chances.

ANY help you guys can give me, I would appreciate it. I am not out of the realm of giving my personal email on public sites so people may contact me directly if that’s what it’s going to take. (Probably not very smart, I know).

Anyway, thanks for all the advice!



#134

Patrick

Oct 9th, 2013 at 7:22 am  Patrick(Q)

For ANYONE trying to get their money back – BEST OF LUCK TO YOU. I HOPE YOU KICK THEIR BUTTS!

I was one of the lucky ones, got out within 3 days, got all my $$ back from Kubassucks, and all but 10% restocking fee from WMI. I guess $150.00 for a lesson well learned.

Really feel sorry for my “sponsors” they got sucked in hook, line, and sinker to the amount of maybe $45,000 – $50,000.



#135

M_Norway

Oct 9th, 2013 at 5:56 pm  M_Norway(Q)

Aaron:
M. Norway is correct. They are exceptionally misleading with their offer. When I began speaking with my “marketing mentor” (sorry I just laughed), they also had told me they would call all my leads and applications for me. This turned out to be a lie.


Fill in some details about their marketing methods?

I can potentially identify it as a “misleading SYSTEM” rather than as a “misleading METHOD” = company organized system that only is repeated by the affiliates, rather than one rogue affiliate doing some misleading marketing.

Your lawyer can potentially need some additional material (other than the basic one) to be able to identify the case correctly, and to be able to identify the correct strategy to use (e.g. potential additional points in a disclosure).

“Fill in some details” is only about a quick overview of the initial sales process.

A. Initial point of contact, WHERE and WHAT. The most effective method for CCPro + WMI was actually paid ads for “Work from Home”, “Earn $5,000 – $10,000 per month, few hours per week” (relatively acceptable amounts, rather than exaggerated, from a Norwegian perspective).

Exaggerated lifestyle and income claims didn’t work very well when it was repeated by too many people, they simply didn’t REFLECT what they claimed to be. All the ‘fake it till you make it’ strategies didn’t work very well in the Norwegian market (e.g. producing fake ‘proofs’ about lifestyle).

The ads can also be about some “honey pot”, e.g. “Receive a FREE copy of Lena Bjorna’s ebook ‘Her Success Blueprint'”. Free stuff always works great in marketing.

B. The initial point of contact lead to WHAT? Directly to the funnel system where you will need to fill in some contact details to get more information, or to a “Home page” with some additional sales arguments.

C. Somewhere in the process here you have already signed up for something, and then you typically receive an email or a phone call from one of the consultants? WHAT did you receive, and WHAT was it about?

It’s typically about how much money you can make if you become a consultant, starting with some low examples first (e.g. selling CCPro itself), and gradually work its way up to higher income examples.

They will typically sell some additional ideas here, e.g. the mentoring idea (“why invent the wheel when it already has been invented, you can simply copy your mentor’s success”), and some coaching ideas (“you will be trained by the very best internet marketers, with proven track records”).

D. And then you decided to go “all in”, following the advices from your “new found friend”, the mentor that only wanted the best for you = your money.

E. What happened later isn’t something I can focus on. I can only cover the sales process from initial contact to the purchase have been made, and potentially add some information your lawyer can be interested in (about the sales process rather than about laws, but in a context where it can be tested against e.g. Consumer Protection Laws).

You won’t need to fill in too much details either. I will only need information about the main method used in initial contact, and enough information to understand the main parts of the process from B to D.

Your lawyer may potentially be interested in the details, but I’m only focusing on main aspects, e.g. HOW central the opportunity was in marketing methods and in sales arguments.


LEGAL STRATEGY

1. I don’t know anything about your lawyer’s strategy. I will most likely identify the case from a different perspective.

2. I know SOMETHING about CCPro’s legal defense strategy from 2009 but without being updated. It was mostly focusing on the agreements and disclaimers (the marketing tells you one story, the disclaimers will tell another).

3. I will try to identify it from a different perspective than CCPro’s defense strategy (I will not focus on the agreements, only on marketing and sales methods).

I identified some areas in post #123, e.g. the general misleading trade practice and where it typically can be found in the law, and also the specialised pyramid scheme rules and where those typically can be found, plus some exceptions (fair trade, fair compensation for work).

Pyramid schemes will typically fail to meet the general rules too, and those are much easier to prove. I would have focused on the general rules rather than the specialised ones if I should have designed a strategy (e.g. marketing and selling something as an income opportunity is misleading in itself, there’s no need to identify it more specialised than that).


HAVE BEEN MISLED

I will focus on the idea that you have been misled to sign up for something that simply can’t work for the average consumer. A 100% recruitment driven income opportunity can’t work mathematically, logically or in reality for the average participant.

I’m using the legal standard of “average consumer” where CCPro is using a constructed theory, where “it COULD have worked, we have examples showing that people clearly can make an income”.

Whether or not there are some coaching and education attached to that model isn’t very important in itself (in the context of whether or not it’s misleading).


PRODUCT VALUE

I can potentially reduce the product value logically, “as a court will see it” rather than other ideas. An opportunity doesn’t hold any legal value in itself.

Attaching an income opportunity to something can work in marketing, based on the idea that people will add a “perceived value” to the product and buy something they normally wouldn’t have bought / for a higher price than they normally wouldn’t have paid.

Claims about “perceived value” doesn’t work very well in court, e.g. it won’t easily accept that Jay Kubassek is some type of “additional value” to the products.

Tony Robbins can legally attract external customers to seminars, but Jay Kubassek doesn’t follow a similar idea (he doesn’t have that external market Tony Robbins has).


THIS POST

* contains one question, “fill in some details”. The details isn’t very important to me at this stage if I have identified it relatively correctly in its main aspects.

* I have identified 2 different areas I can focus on = misleading trade practice and product value. The last point is in case there will be some discussions about refund amounts.

The first post was VERY general. This post is general, but I’m limiting the scope to specific areas / specific types of strategies (I will focus on the misleading parts rather than on your agreement, Consumer Protection rather than contract laws).



#136

M_Norway

Oct 9th, 2013 at 9:50 pm  M_Norway(Q)

M_Norway:
The first post was VERY general. This post is general, but I’m limiting the scope to specific areas / specific types of strategies

@Aaron

Woops, I didn’t see your post #124 before posting my previous posts, or before writing this one. I found it first now when I was checking the logic in my own post #123. It hasn’t affected my posts much, but I could have made some information become more specific in post #135. I will first make corrections in my next posts, not in this one.

The method I’m using may look rather “complicated” and “detailed”, but the explanation for that is because I’m trying to identify more than one viewpoint.

I will eventually try to land it on some arguments your lawyer can be interested in, rather than on arguments you will be interested in, on something that can be accepted by a court.

I know the TYPICAL defense arguments in MLM and other income opportunities. They TYPICALLY believe that a program will be legal if it has some products or services involved in the transactions, e.g. because the transactions then will be based on the flow of products rather than on the flow of money.

I can identify their theories there, but it’s often difficult to identify the relevant legal theories they use to support their own theories. I will try to identify it more correctly than them, closer to how a court can see it rather than to how they see it.

SOME LEGAL IDEAS

* Whether or not an income opportunity actually can work isn’t about proof for that it actually works for SOME people. That is one type of reality. The other type of reality is about whether it works for the AVERAGE CONSUMER buying into it, or if the average consumer is doomed to fail.

I believe your lawyer can use “corrected ideas” like that. Here’s a couple of others.

* Misleading trade practice isn’t about whether or not something has been clearly stated in a disclaimer, but about the trade practice as a whole.

* The people joining the program are CONSUMERS. An agreement where they will be redefined to be Independant Business Owners will not change that fact.

* I’m using rather general ideas for civil procedure, e.g. “the one making the claim holds the Burden of Proof”. That idea doesn’t need to be 100% correct in itself, but it explains WHY I’m focusing on the easy to prove misleading trade practice rather than on the difficult to prove pyramid scheme.

Your lawyer can of course correct my “corrected ideas”. That’s why I’m identifying them, so he can use his own legal understanding rather than mine.

I see some of CCPro’s legal defense system as “constructed theories”, primarily focused around their own agreements and disclaimers rather than around the realities.

If your lawyer makes it become a dispute about contracts, he will be playing the game in their own “home stadium”. I don’t use ideas like that. I believe a dispute about the whole transaction have much better chances (what the opportunity is about rather than what the contract is about).

SHORT SUMMARY

Post #123 was VERY general, vaguely identifying many different aspects.

Your post #124 have not been included yet in any of my posts. It tells me something about how your lawyer has identified the case. I haven’t used EXACTLY the same idea as him, e.g. I have NOT focused on what you have received.
* We have both tried to avoid pyramid scheme rules.
* He may have focused on contract issues?
* I have focused on the general misleading trade practice.

My post #135 tried to limit the scope to a few specific areas.

This post is trying to identify some legal ideas, e.g. commonly used defense ideas in MLM and for opportunities, and “corrected ideas”.

In my next post I should probably focus on your lawyer’s idea and analyse that. I’m a former sales man, and contract laws will be too complicated for me to analyse. But I can analyse some potential defense arguments there (what you can expect from your opponent).



#137

M_Norway

Oct 10th, 2013 at 12:59 am  M_Norway(Q)

(post #124)

Aaron:
My lawyers have been working very hard on the points you brought up. In Missouri, pyramid schemes are illegal and damages awarded to a Plantiff can double.

However, my situation is even more simple. I paid $40,000 for the “business opportunity” and was supposed to have access to industry leaders on how to be a successful internet marketer. I realized soon after I paid that this was a scam. I did not receive any specialized training and was left out to the “wolves.”

I’m trying to analyse the information in post #124 here, since I failed to see it in my other posts.

“Industry leaders” are Jay Kubassek and his team, plus some external speakers at the events. Jay Kubassek was high up on the “MLM Top 100 Income earners” in 2009 (the only year I checked), with an estimated income of $300K per month. The correct description should have been “former but failed industry leader” for him, but he doesn’t like to see himself in that way. 🙂

“I didn’t receive” is a strategy I don’t like (as a sales man). You will need to identify it as something THEY have failed to deliver (offer you), rather than as something you have failed to receive because of being busy on those days.

“I didn’t receive” can partly be deflected if it’s about the mentoring you didn’t receive from your mentor. Jay Kubassek can push that problem onto “the rogue individual” that didn’t do the job. “The rogue individual” can probably defend himself by some email messages or something, plus “I delivered what I could, and he didn’t ask for more. I can offer him that type of training now”.

Jay Kubassek can offer you that type of training now. It’s much more affordable to offer you something like “We can offer you the next event for free”, rather than offering you a refund. You will potentially also need to accept it, as a valid offer that will resolve your “I didn’t receive” claims.

Don’t describe it as “scam”. That’s very difficult to prove, and it reflects your viewpoint more than it’s reflecting identifiable factors you can use in a strategy. It will fail in court, just like any other “perceived values”.


CONCLUSION

I can see some potential weaknesses in your lawyer’s strategy, but I haven’t identified how HE has identified the case, only YOUR version of it.

He may have many different factors supporting his idea, but that’s probably partially because of the TYPE of material he has asked for and you gave him. A lawyer will TYPICALLY ask for legal material like contracts, something he clearly can identify within his OWN “field of expertise”.

As a sals man, I will typically need to identify things within OTHER people’s “field of expertise”. That’s what I have been doing, e.g. by identifying types of laws and legal ideas so it can become closer to the viewpoints of a lawyer.


SUMMARY

I have identified your lawyer’s strategy as best as I could, based on your description. My counter arguments were based on the same description.

I haven’t analysed the case itself, other than on a general basis. I don’t have any intentions of doing it either, I’m trying to limit the scope rather than expanding it.

I’m not quite sure what my next post will be about. It CAN be about CCPro’s legal defense system, going into more details about it.



#138

M_Norway

Oct 10th, 2013 at 3:08 am  M_Norway(Q)

M_Norway:
I’m not quite sure what my next post will be about. It CAN be about CCPro’s legal defense system, going into more details about it.

I will need to focus on something else first, some general info about other aspects than the case itself.

* Lawsuits are typically about someone feeling dissatisfied with something, contacting a lawyer with a primary focus on their own dissatisfaction and how they want the lawyer to come up with solutions for it, typically “I want to sue him!” solutions.

* Lawyers will often be more functional if you use them in a different way first, as neutral legal advisors rather than as a private tool for revenge. “I will sue him!” makes it very difficult for people to bring in other types of information.

* Like most people, lawyers will try to adjust what they have to offer so it can meet what the client is asking for. Your own emotional drive may affect the type of solution they will offer you, they might potentially offer you YOUR solution rather than their own.

* Emotional drive has some functions, e.g. we will need some of it to convert plans into ACTIONS. Having too much of it will often distort how we see things, e.g. we will focus on what we WANT to be true rather than on the truth itself (typically it’s about focusing too strongly on the parts that support our own WANTS, while ignoring other parts).

You may potentially increase your own chances for winning the case if you can reduce your own “personal drive”, your own motivation for suing your opponent and for winning the case. That will give more room for logical ideas rather than emotional ones, e.g. for additional details in your plan.

ONE EXAMPLE

Post #120 has a link to another article, where Kip Herriage in WMI is suing his former top earners Jay Kubassek, Michael Force, the Rashkins and others. The case had become rather old before he decided to sue them, and it has probably grown emotionally.

His lawyer hasn’t been correctly informed about some weaknesses in his own defense. Kip Herriage will probably hurt himself more than he will hurt his opponents if he doesn’t adjust his strategy.

Use him as an example for where too much emotional drive can distort how people SEE a case. It will affect the type of information they give to a lawyer. I have only seen the Rashkin’s defense strategy there, pointing out the pyramid scheme weakness in WMI’s defense.



#139

Aaron

Oct 13th, 2013 at 10:51 pm  Aaron(Q)

M Norway… I see your point. However, as much as I hate the fact these scumbags have scammed me and so many other people, I don’t believe I am letting my emotions get the best of me.

I hired a very good attorney that I have worked with before. He is very well versed in the law. In reality, my case is very simple: I paid for a product that I did not receive and now I want my money back. I never went to the bullshit retreats that I purchased because they made it almost impossible for me to go, only giving me 6 weeks lead time before the actual event.

Now, David Bach is no longer associated with company. This is the main reason I bought the package in the first place. (By the way, anyone know why David Bach is no longer associated with ProU??)

Never mind all the lies I was told along the way. I soon later realized that this was all a big scam anyway.

Like I said, I plan on seeing this out to the end. What I really need is to be contacted by as many of the people damaged by ProU/CCPro so we can mount a huge case against these people. Let me know if you have any more ideas about how to get in touch with other victims. And if you know of any, send them my way.

Thanks!



#140

M_Norway

Oct 14th, 2013 at 1:03 am  M_Norway(Q)

Aaron:
However, as much as I hate the fact these scumbags have scammed me and so many other people, I don’t believe I am letting my emotions get the best of me.

From me, you will get something similar to a neutral viewpoint, but typically from more than one perspective, e.g. I will try to identify your lawyer’s ideas and Jay Kubassek’s ideas in a similar way (without adding more or less “credibility” to any of them).

Neutral viewpoint doesn’t work very well if people are emotionally engaged in something. They will often be too little flexible / too “predefined” in the type of information they want. We actually have had a lot of experience with that here. 🙂

1. I can identify CCPro/ProU within the context of pyramid scheme rules and a more general “misleading trade practice”. I can add more details and logics for both those 2 areas. If any of those are of some interest, I will recommend the last one first. Misleading trade practice rules are some type of “parent rules” for the pyramid scheme rules.

2. I can analyse strategies theoretically, e.g. I pointed out the “You can get the next seminar for free” counter strategy that could be used against you. An offer like that is a valid offer in business.

3. I can estimate some chances, e.g. “I don’t think you will get many replies from victims within the correct timeframe = As Soon As Possible.

And so on and so forth, a relatively limited set of information types, not exactly what you were looking for.

4. We don’t do any “personal consulting” here, and we’re not qualified for it either. My reply to your post was because it could be of interest for other people in a similar situation (CCPro or other program). That’s what we do here, “we share information (about MLM opportunities), and we’re providing a platform for doing it”.

Now, David Bach is no longer associated with company. This is the main reason I bought the package in the first place.

That can make the counter strategy in point #2 difficult to meet exactly, but I’m pretty sure Jay Kubassek has something to offer.

I never went to the bullshit retreats that I purchased because they made it almost impossible for me to go, only giving me 6 weeks lead time before the actual event.

6 weeks notice may be accepted by a court as “reasonable time”. When you have signed up for something and have paid for it, you are already partially prepared, i.e. the argument “It came as a complete surprise to me when the event was announced with only 6 weeks notice” will not count in your favour.

Never mind all the lies I was told along the way. I soon later realized that this was all a big scam anyway.

That argument CAN be useful. HOW did you realize that, and WHEN? Jay Kubassek’s lawyer will ask about details like that if you use that argument.

Let me know if you have any more ideas about how to get in touch with other victims. And if you know of any, send them my way.

* I don’t have any ideas. I’m not “updated enough” on CCPro/ProU. You can potentially find some people indirectly through WMI Wealth Masters International or PCFmojo (Leaf International if I remember it correctly).

We (Oz) write reviews and follow up stories for different companies. People from one company will often pop up in other companies. But I don’t think an idea like that will lead to anything. “I don’t have any idea” will save you some time.

* We don’t share personal details, but it will be up to Oz to decide that. I pointed that out in post #125:

If you get it, you can’t exchange e-mails or personal info here, that type of info will always be deleted.

You will need a PLAN for how to handle that if you get any replies. One method is to use a forum where you can communicate via PM.

In addition to a PLAN for how to solve personal contact methods, you should also set a TIME LIMIT. You will not be very interested in the same type of contacts in October 2014.